Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

[Visanideth]

Nobody in the Resistance actually saw that Luke was a projection.

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Still, it's gonna be a lie. If the truth about what actually happened on Crait ever emerged, the "spark" would deflate and the First Order would have won.

I want to think it's a brilliant allegory for the First Order representing Trump and Luke's sacrifice being the "fake news" that will bring him down, but jokes aside, it's so depressing that Luke's legacy is a lie. It completely sour the movie for me, but I'm the weird one probably here.

 

[KingSnake]

Yeah, it's just really bizarre that A) Rian Johnson chooses to frame the story that way and B) that within the story Rey suddenly forgets Rey and Leia are literally being shot at while she speaks and questions. Now, her staying on Ach'too until she can persuade Luke can perfectly make sense, but her basically stopping to care as soon as he proves willing to train her is... selfish? Inconsiderate? Weird, at least?

Rey: "Come! We need to save everyone!"
Luke: "What if I told you you can lift rocks and discover the truth about your powers?"
Rey: "Fuck those guys, I'm in".

It's rather jarring.

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Come on, this is not really what's happening in the movie. Meanwhile Rey has also the connection with Kylo and the trip to the dark side, so she pretty much in a middle of a mind storm. It's not like she delays leaving the island to get answers. Luke still is not joining her either way. At the very moment she founds another hope (Kylo) she leaves immediately.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Meanwhile, in the real world:

TLJ trailing behind Jumanji remake.

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Yo, how about you please stop with the drive by trolling that had nothing do with the actual conversations being had. You keep doing this.

Jumanji isn't even going to do half of what TLJ did. So pretending TLJ, a movie that is going to be one of the highest grossing movies of all time still is doing bad.....because?

Your trolling in this thread isn't funny or witty dude.

 

[KingSnake]

Yo, how about you stop with your petty trolling that had nothing do with the actual conversations being had. That might be nice?

Jumanji isn't even going to do half of what TLJ did. So pretending TLJ, a movie that is going to be one of the highest grossing movies of all time still is doing bad.....because?

Your trolling in this thread isn't funny or witty dude.

Click to shrink...

It's not worthy answering anymore. Just ignore it.

 

[Lizzy]

Meanwhile, in the real world:

TLJ trailing behind Jumanji remake.

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Why are you like this?

 

[Deleted member 5666]

It's not worthy answering anymore. Just ignore it.

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I mean I get not liking the movie and talking about why but all he is doing is drive by trolling without engaging anyone or taking part in any conversation. It's just so petty.

 

[KingSnake]

Still, it's gonna be a lie. If the truth about what actually happened on Crait ever emerged, the "spark" would deflate and the First Order would have won.

I want to think it's a brilliant allegory for the First Order representing Trump and Luke's sacrifice being the "fake news" that will bring him down, but jokes aside, it's so depressing that Luke's legacy is a lie. It completely sour the movie for me, but I'm the weird one probably here.

Click to shrink...

I'm not sure the First Order knows either what exactly happened there. Except for Kylo Ren. Who might be too proud to admit he was fooled like that.

And in general the First Order doesn't seem like an organisation that would brag about how they weren't able to catch or kill some tens of people with no big weapons or ships left.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I'm not sure the First Order knows either what exactly happened there. Except for Kylo Ren. Who might be too proud to admit he was fooled like that.

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Kylo gets back on his ship.

"You didn't see that."
"See what sir?"

 

[Deleted member 19218]

I don't think Reven Wolf's comments is all that different from what people think about Star Wars in this thread. I teared up when I saw Yoda pop up or when Leia's message to Obi-Wan showed up and I haven't been a fan for my whole life like others have. To me Star Wars is more than dumb popcorn films, which is why The Last Jedi resonates with me so much. It attempts, and succeeds, to be more than just a blockbuster. It reaches emotional heights that I haven't gotten in a blockbuster since...ever?

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Yeah the nostalgia from Star Wars was way too much. Watching it as an adult, it felt like I was looking back on my child hood.

I am older, Luke Skywalker is older, we both (the character and the viewer) watch R2-D2's recording together and look back at the past.

I am 30 now, my childhood has long gone but seeing these characters felt like some sort of reunion from school and that triggered maximum nostalgia.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

I doubt even Kylo fully understood what happened. It was some crazy level force powers being done. I doubt anyone but Leia or Rey know Luke died.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I wonder if Kylo will travel to Ahch-To and blow up the island like Snoke was planning to do.

 

[KingSnake]

I doubt even Kylo fully understood what happened.

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I think he understood when he slowly pushes his lightsaber through Luke the second time. Adam Driver pulls an epic face expression in that scene.

 

[Ushojax]

I think he understood when he slowly pushes his lightsaber through Luke the second time. Adam Driver pulls an epic face expression in that scene.

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He understood that he had been tricked but I don't know if he felt Luke's death the way Leia and Rey did. They can do a few different things with in in Episode IX.

 

[KingSnake]

He understood that he had been tricked but I don't know if he felt Luke's death the way Leia and Rey did. They can do a few different things with in in Episode IX.

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It didn't seem to have felt it, right. Although the dices disappearing in his hand might point to that. It's up to JJ to decide.

 

[Darcy]

Still, it's gonna be a lie. If the truth about what actually happened on Crait ever emerged, the "spark" would deflate and the First Order would have won.

I want to think it's a brilliant allegory for the First Order representing Trump and Luke's sacrifice being the "fake news" that will bring him down, but jokes aside, it's so depressing that Luke's legacy is a lie. It completely sour the movie for me, but I'm the weird one probably here.

Click to shrink...

It is what bothered me the most about this movie: constantly sending conflicting messaging to be able to use a bunch of mutually exclusive emotions. I think it wanted to both deconstruct the myth to make it post-modernist but also use the classical "inspiring" trope when convenient for cinematic value. At the end of the movie, you are logically supposed to understand that Luke is not the infallible heroic legend the galaxy has been imagining and that you supposedly expected. However, the movie weirdly rolls back and tell you that his messianic "sacrifice" nobody witnessed (or honestly, fully understood at the time) is all that matter because it is what mobilizes the next wave of rebels who saw the inspiring video of his death on space social media somehow.

 

[KingSnake]

In the final sequence the children are re-enacting the battle of Crait where Luke faces alone a full army of the First Order. They weren't re-enacting Luke's becoming one with the Force or anything.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Is this the first SW episode in which Obi-Wan doesn't appear in any form?

 

[Mockerre]

Yo, how about you please stop with the drive by trolling that had nothing do with the actual conversations being had. You keep doing this.

Jumanji isn't even going to do half of what TLJ did. So pretending TLJ, a movie that is going to be one of the highest grossing movies of all time still is doing bad.....because?

Your trolling in this thread isn't funny or witty dude.

Click to shrink...

Yo, maybe you stop telling others what to do and keep to yourself?

Of course Jumanji is going to make less out-front - it's not a 40-year old legendary franchise, it's a remake, it doesn't have the budget or marketing. Just pointing out TLJ is hemorrhaging viewers. Also, Jumanji may turn out to be almost as profitable, because it's not about the absolute value, but relative value - that's why they keep making low-budget horror movies for example.

Edit: As I've received a moderation warning, I won't be participating in the discussion for a while. I'll be back when the box office dust has settled.

 

[matrix-cat]

Luke basically pulled some Dr Manhattan-tier shit in the eyes of every non-Force-user who was there that day. Imagine what that final scene looked like to the First Order soldiers. First Luke Skywalker walks out and tanks ten billion gigawatts of turbolaser fire apparently without effort. Then he clowns on their Supreme Leader, apparently totally immune to lightsabre attacks? Then he fucking teleports out of there.

Half of those dudes probably deserted on the spot. Went to the nearest bar and told the story of "Holy shit Luke Skywalker showed up and I swear to God..." to whoever would listen.

 

[Ushojax]

It is what bothered me the most about this movie: constantly sending conflicting messaging to be able to use a bunch of mutually exclusive emotions. I think it wanted to both deconstruct the myth to make it post-modernist but also use the classical "inspiring" trope when convenient for cinematic value. At the end of the movie, you are logically supposed to understand that Luke is not the infallible heroic legend the galaxy has been imagining and that you supposedly expected. However, the movie weirdly rolls back and tell you that his messianic "sacrifice" nobody witnessed (or honestly, fully understood at the time) is all that matter because it is what mobilizes the next wave of rebels who saw the inspiring video of his death on space social media somehow.

Click to shrink...

It would have been conflicting if Luke had physically faced down the First Order, absorbed all the gunfire and somehow not been cut in half by Kylo. Luke could never live up to his own, perhaps undeserved, reputation as a godly Jedi master and had to find a way to seem like more than just a man. By appearing totally invincible he restored the spark of hope even if in reality it cost him his life. That's what legends do, they make ordinary people seem like something more.

There were hundreds of people on Crait who saw what happened, the galaxy doesn't need Space Youtube to hear the story. There will surely be people in the First Order who will spread word as well as the rebels, perhaps seeing something like that might make them lose faith in the FO. There are lots of directions they can take it in.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Luke basically pulled some Dr Manhattan-tier shit in the eyes of every non-Force-user who was there that day. Imagine what that final scene looked like to the First Order soldiers. First Luke Skywalker walks out and tanks ten billion gigawatts of turbolaser fire apparently without effort. Then he clowns on their Supreme Leader, apparently totally immune to lightsabre attacks? Then he fucking teleports out of there.

Half of those dudes probably deserted on the spot. Went to the nearest bar and told the story of "Holy shit Luke Skywalker showed up and I swear to God..." to whoever would listen.

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Exactly!!! No one in the galaxy will see that as him using to Force to project some sort of decoy or that he died. What he did appeared God like.

 

[Darcy]

Luke basically pulled some Dr Manhattan-tier shit in the eyes of every non-Force-user who was there that day. Imagine what that final scene looked like to the First Order soldiers. First Luke Skywalker walks out and tanks ten billion gigawatts of turbolaser fire apparently without effort. Then he clowns on their Supreme Leader, apparently totally immune to lightsabre attacks? Then he fucking teleports out of there.

Half of those dudes probably deserted on the spot. Went to the nearest bar and told the story of "Holy shit Luke Skywalker showed up and I swear to God..." to whoever would listen.

Click to shrink...

There are still extremely conditioned "individual". Well to be honest the case for the FO people to be humanized and not just robot has been completely dropped since TFA where you had that groundbreaking Finn waking up and deserting the Stormtroopers ranks. The movie never delved on it any further because you had to have something to shoot at mercilessly. No matter the fact that they are deep down kidnapped kids constantly being brainwashed.

 

[Deleted member 11995]

Luke basically pulled some Dr Manhattan-tier shit in the eyes of every non-Force-user who was there that day. Imagine what that final scene looked like to the First Order soldiers. First Luke Skywalker walks out and tanks ten billion gigawatts of turbolaser fire apparently without effort. Then he clowns on their Supreme Leader, apparently totally immune to lightsabre attacks? Then he fucking teleports out of there.

Half of those dudes probably deserted on the spot. Went to the nearest bar and told the story of "Holy shit Luke Skywalker showed up and I swear to God..." to whoever would listen.

Click to shrink...

It would have been conflicting if Luke had physically faced down the First Order, absorbed all the gunfire and somehow not been cut in half by Kylo. Luke could never live up to his own, perhaps undeserved, reputation as a godly Jedi master and had to find a way to seem like more than just a man. By appearing totally invincible he restored the spark of hope even if in reality it cost him his life. That's what legends do, they make ordinary people seem like something more.

There were hundreds of people on Crait who saw what happened, the galaxy doesn't need Space Youtube to hear the story. There will surely be people in the First Order who will spread word as well as the rebels, perhaps seeing something like that might make them lose faith in the FO. There are lots of directions they can take it in.

Click to shrink...

Exactly. Luke's final act was perfectly planned and executed. It's one of those things that might not grab you at first, but once you think on it a bit, it works so well.

For me, in the next film we have to see that FO members are legitimately shook after what they witnessed that day. The legend has to spread among those evil ranks, damaging their machine from within.

 

[Visanideth]

It would have been conflicting if Luke had physically faced down the First Order, absorbed all the gunfire and somehow not been cut in half by Kylo. Luke could never live up to his own, perhaps undeserved, reputation as a godly Jedi master and had to find a way to seem like more than just a man. By appearing totally invincible he restored the spark of hope even if in reality it cost him his life. That's what legends do, they make ordinary people seem like something more.

There were hundreds of people on Crait who saw what happened, the galaxy doesn't need Space Youtube to hear the story. There will surely be people in the First Order who will spread word as well as the rebels, perhaps seeing something like that might make them lose faith in the FO. There are lots of directions they can take it in.

Click to shrink...

So, fundamentally, it's a lie.

If the story of how Luke did it, of what actually happened, and of Luke actually being dead without even taking out a single stormtrooper comes out, then the Resistance is done.

I'm not questioning that Luke's lightshow can work: it does. I'm questioning that his last act, the best he could do for the galaxy, is fundamentally staging a giant con that factually strumentalizes hope and gullybility.

It's a TERRIBLE message, and seeing it associated to Luke (expecially after the movie started with the right foot, "You expect me to face the First Order with a laser sword?") is depressing.

 

[KingSnake]

There are still extremely conditioned "individual". Well to be honest the case for the FO people to be humanized and not just robot has been completely dropped since TFA where you had that groundbreaking Finn waking up and deserting the Stormtroopers ranks. The movie never delved on it any further because you had to have something to shoot at mercilessly. No matter the fact that they are deep down kidnapped kids constantly being brainwashed.

Click to shrink...

This ties a bit the discussion with the "sympathetic" Kylo earlier in the thread. The personal tragedy doesn't excuse the actions. A lot of the serial killers had some abuse happening to them in their childhood. It helps understand the psychology behind but the actions are still inexcusable. The same with the Stormtroopers. Finn refuses to shoot innocent civilians for example.

 

[Visanideth]

Exactly. Luke's final act was perfectly planned and executed.

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Indeed it is, but I'm not sure I was ready to read "Luke Skywalker, Jedi master and con artist" on his tombstone.

I don't mind he plays a giant Jedi mindtrick on the bad guys; I mind that he plays a giant fake-news, propaganda stunt on the good guys. Again, if the kids knew what actually happened they wouldn't be restaging the battle. It's... horrible.

 

[StuBurns]

Indeed it is, but I'm not sure I was ready to read "Luke Skywalker, Jedi master and con artist" on his tombstone.

I don't mind he plays a giant Jedi mindtrick on the bad guys; I mind that he plays a giant fake-news, propaganda stunt on the good guys. Again, if the kids knew what actually happened they wouldn't be restaging the battle. It's... horrible.

Click to shrink...

What? Why?

Even if it had taken place 'physically', as you're meant to think while watching, it's no less a display of mastery of the Force. Moreover, the whole point of the Jedi is you don't fight if you don't need to. He didn't need to. He won with being smarter, and more in-tune with the Force.

His actions were perfect for what a Jedi is meant to be to people.

 

[Ushojax]

So, fundamentally, it's a lie.

If the story of how Luke did it, of what actually happened, and of Luke actually being dead without even taking out a single stormtrooper comes out, then the Resistance is done.

I'm not questioning that Luke's lightshow can work: it does. I'm questioning that his last act, the best he could do for the galaxy, is fundamentally staging a giant con that factually strumentalizes hope and gullybility.

It's a TERRIBLE message, and seeing it associated to Luke (expecially after the movie started with the right foot, "You expect me to face the First Order with a laser sword?") is depressing.

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How is it a terrible message? Luke Skywalker is just a man. What he did was so incredible that like real-world religious myths it will probably be revered, debated and doubted for the rest of time. A lot of people still believe that Jesus turned one fish into many, despite it breaking the laws of the universe. Some people still question the moon landings despite there being a US flag on the surface of the moon. That's the thing with legends, they endure.

Indeed it is, but I'm not sure I was ready to read "Luke Skywalker, Jedi master and con artist" on his tombstone.

I don't mind he plays a giant Jedi mindtrick on the bad guys; I mind that he plays a giant fake-news, propaganda stunt on the good guys. Again, if the kids knew what actually happened they wouldn't be restaging the battle. It's... horrible.

Click to shrink...

The truth is that Luke Skywalker gave his life to ensure the Resistance survived. It's not like it was all a literal hologram and he's a fraud, hiding away somewhere. He used the Force to do something incredible and noble, giving his life for the cause. Even if people found out, why wouldn't they still be inspired?

 

[DiipuSurotu]

The story the kids were told was true... from a certain point of view.

 

[Raptomex]

I finally saw this last weekend and as a Star Wars fan, I don't know what all the fuss is about. I didn't think it was that bad and I don't know why some fans are all negative about Luke's character here. I'll be honest and say it wasn't my favorite entry in the series but I didn't hate it. I thought it was kind of underwhelming in some ways and Snoke was seriously underdeveloped. It was definitely better than Ep 1 - 3 but that's not really hard. Just my opinions on the matter.

And RIP Carrie Fisher. It was sad knowing it's one of her last films.

 

[Visanideth]

What? Why?

Even if it had taken place 'physically', as you're meant to think while watching, it's no less a display of mastery of the Force. Moreover, the whole point of the Jedi is you don't fight if you don't need to. He didn't need to. He won with being smarter, and more in-tune with the Force.

His actions were perfect for what a Jedi is meant to be to people.

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He... won? Exactly what did he win? He didn't diminish the power of the FO in any way. He didn't kill a single stormtrooper.

Read the rest of the post. Look at it from the perspective of how the news will hit the galaxy:

Before Luke "showed up": Resistance losing, their message being Luke Skywalker will return and help them; First Order's power level 9000.

After Luke "showed up": Resistance losing worse than before; First Order's power level still 9000.

Now, there's a missing detail:

- the truth: Luke, the guy who was supposed to return and help, is also dead. So now the Resistance is weaker AND their promised saviour died without actually fighting the FO.

- the lie: Luke is back! He fought the FO on Crait, and he's gonna join us in the fight in the future! Join the Resistance!


That's the long and short of it. The truth is horrible, the lie is hope. What a jolly way to say farewell to Luke.

 

[obin_gam]

It's a TERRIBLE message, and seeing it associated to Luke (expecially after the movie started with the right foot, "You expect me to face the First Order with a laser sword?") is depressing.

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What Luke says in the beginning is inherently right though. It's a stupid idea to even think about - you expect Luke to face the first order single handily with only a laser sword? Come on man....

 

[Ushojax]

He... won? Exactly what did he win? He didn't diminish the power of the FO in any way. He didn't kill a single stormtrooper.

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Why would he kill anyone? "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack."

The whole message of Star Wars is that courage x hope can defeat anything. Luke restores both by appearing invincible in front of the First Order. The Resistance does not need Luke Skywalker himself to defeat the First Order, he is just one man. They simply needed something to restore hope.

 

[Darcy]

It would have been conflicting if Luke had physically faced down the First Order, absorbed all the gunfire and somehow not been cut in half by Kylo. Luke could never live up to his own, perhaps undeserved, reputation as a godly Jedi master and had to find a way to seem like more than just a man. By appearing totally invincible he restored the spark of hope even if in reality it cost him his life. That's what legends do, they make ordinary people seem like something more.

There were hundreds of people on Crait who saw what happened, the galaxy doesn't need Space Youtube to hear the story. There will surely be people in the First Order who will spread word as well as the rebels, perhaps seeing something like that might make them lose faith in the FO. There are lots of directions they can take it in.

Click to shrink...

I think the whole Crait act greatly undermines the building up the movie did up to the throne room climatic scene. TLJ questioning is interesting, the final answers it delivered are debatable. Because force trick or not, it is still the idea of Luke Skywalker savior of the rebellion, it still perpetuates the idolizing of heroes. And it is dealt with such a first degree. It seems not to be self-aware of the moral implication of such propaganda piece/myth.
You could yet have another trilogy about a young Jedi being confronted to the reality of this idolizing. Every 30 years.

 

[StuBurns]

That's the long and short of it. The truth is horrible, the lie is hope. What a jolly way to say farewell to Luke.

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Man, it's like we watched a whole other film.

Luke saved the Resistance, reignited the belief in the Jedi, established Rey as his successor, and made Ren look like the imputent man-child fuck-wit he is in front of his Nazi friends.

 

[Visanideth]

Now things get a whole lot more interesting if you move the perspective from "innocent kids getting fooled by a false story used as propaganda" to "actual politicians and military leaders evaluating this intervention as a reason to rejoin the fight against the First Order".


"So, Princess Leia, you're telling us the situation of the war has changed. Indeed, you lost all of your war assets expect a corellian freighter and a dozen people, but Luke Skywalker did show up and joined the war, right? How many AT-ATs did he take out on Crait? Oh, none. Well, he's still an experienced general and a hero of the last war. Let's hear his input. Oh, he's dead? Jolly. Yeah, we'll let you know".


The Resistance basically has to lie all the way about Crait. Urgh.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

He... won? Exactly what did he win? He didn't diminish the power of the FO in any way. He didn't kill a single stormtrooper.

Read the rest of the post. Look at it from the perspective of how the news will hit the galaxy:

Before Luke "showed up": Resistance losing, their message being Luke Skywalker will return and help them; First Order's power level 9000.

After Luke "showed up": Resistance losing worse than before; First Order's power level still 9000.

Now, there's a missing detail:

- the truth: Luke, the guy who was supposed to return and help, is also dead. So now the Resistance is weaker AND their promised saviour died without actually fighting the FO.

- the lie: Luke is back! He fought the FO on Crait, and he's gonna join us in the fight in the future! Join the Resistance!


That's the long and short of it. The truth is horrible, the lie is hope. What a jolly way to say farewell to Luke.

Click to shrink...

Luke saved the Resistance. Without him they would be all dead.

And people don't know that Luke died. Regardless, he still is back because Force ghosts are a thing.

Also, while that wasn't Luke's doing, Supreme Leader Snoke is dead so that was a pretty crazy day in galactic history.

 

[Deleted member 11995]

Indeed it is, but I'm not sure I was ready to read "Luke Skywalker, Jedi master and con artist" on his tombstone.

I don't mind he plays a giant Jedi mindtrick on the bad guys; I mind that he plays a giant fake-news, propaganda stunt on the good guys. Again, if the kids knew what actually happened they wouldn't be restaging the battle. It's... horrible.

Click to shrink...

You're thinking about this in the wrong way, entirely, because you feel negatively about the film and want this to confirm that you're correct.

Legends are built upon how other people tell the stories of things that happened, after the fact. The intentions of the people involved are almost irrelevant. (To clarify here, when I said Luke's act was perfectly planned and executed, I meant by the filmmakers)

Luke never set out to deliberately deceive oppressed children on a planet millions of miles away. He had to face Ben. He told Leia that, in a simple way that can't be misunderstood. But in doing that one thing, he also (negatively or positively, depending on perspective) influenced everyone else involved in the grand scheme of the story and situation.

I would urge you to try and forget your negativity and give Luke and that scene another chance, and think about everything that leads up to it and everything that can now happen because of it.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

I mean I get not liking the movie and talking about why but all he is doing is drive by trolling without engaging anyone or taking part in any conversation. It's just so petty.

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But he's VERAFIED

 

[okdakor]

He... won? Exactly what did he win? He didn't diminish the power of the FO in any way. He didn't kill a single stormtrooper.

Read the rest of the post. Look at it from the perspective of how the news will hit the galaxy:

Click to shrink...

You don't need to imagine anything, the movie shows you how the news hit the galaxy : Skywalker is now a legend, kids want to be him

 

[Deleted member 21339]

Luke Skywalker "con artist." LOL. Are you for real?

 

[Visanideth]

Man, it's like we watched a whole other film.

Luke saved the Resistance, reignited the belief in the Jedi, established Rey as his successor, and made Ren look like the imputent man-child fuck-wit he is in front of his Nazi friends.

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He reignited the belief in the jedis if the fake story goes out. If the people who are suffering under the First Order know that he died to provide a distraction, will they be galvinized?

Luke Skywalker is GONE. In this thread we're discussing how it's a good thing nobody knows. The entire thing is a lie, and that's something perfectly incapsulated by the astral projection thing. The whole message is something like "the truth doesn't matter, you can just manipulate people through social media".

Luke's final act is one of manipulation - on Kylo, on Hux's troops, on the same people who believe in him. The kids at the end are believing a lie.

And that doesn't even address how moving to a more "political" and rational level the Resistance has basically lost its main argument for saying the war could be won. TFA basically opens telling us that the FO is winning, but everyone is expecting to see what Luke Skywalker will do, and that the Resistance believes he's the trump card to win the war. I don't think "He died to let us escape" is gonna be a particularly persuasive argument in negotiations.

 

[Ushojax]

Now things get a whole lot more interesting if you move the perspective from "innocent kids getting fooled by a false story used as propaganda" to "actual politicians and military leaders evaluating this intervention as a reason to rejoin the fight against the First Order".


"So, Princess Leia, you're telling us the situation of the war has changed. Indeed, you lost all of your war assets expect a corellian freighter and a dozen people, but Luke Skywalker did show up and joined the war, right? How many AT-ATs did he take out on Crait? Oh, none. Well, he's still an experienced general and a hero of the last war. Let's hear his input. Oh, he's dead? Jolly. Yeah, we'll let you know".


The Resistance basically has to lie all the way about Crait. Urgh.

Click to shrink...

You are analysing it in a very robotic way. You could analyse the Nolan Batman films by saying "he's just a guy in a suit who repeatedly gets beaten to near-death, why would anyone care"? The point is that he's a symbol, he shows people that you can stand up and make a difference. The fact that in reality he almost got killed by some random drug dealer's dogs is not important. He makes himself more than just a man in the eyes of the people. In the Star Wars universe, hope is all-powerful. Luke restores hope.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Luke went from myth to Legend

 

[obin_gam]

He reignited the belief in the jedis if the fake story goes out.

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It did get out. It is shown explicitly this in the movie.

 

[Visanideth]

You don't need to imagine anything, the movie shows you how the news hit the galaxy : Skywalker is now a legend, kids want to be him

Click to shrink...

And I'm sure the next movie will also tell us a lot of systems and governments now support the Resistance and nobody asked "Where is this Luke guy, now?". Movies can tell you whatever they want, even that the smartest vigilante in the world will renounce to his only chance to eliminate what he consider a planetary threat because their mommies have the same name.

 

[Ushojax]

I don't think "He died to let us escape" is gonna be a particularly persuasive argument in negotiations.

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"X died so that we could live" is one of the most universally understood martyr tropes in human history.

And I'm sure the next movie will also tell us a lot of systems and governments now support the Resistance and nobody asked "Where is this Luke guy, now?". Movies can tell you whatever they want, even that the smartest vigilante in the world will renounce to his only chance to eliminate what he consider a planetary threat because their mommies have the same name.

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I'm sure they will ask. And Poe will say that he died, but luckily we have a new generation of Jedi to help us. Led by Luke's final student and inspired by his story. You see, no-one is ever really gone.

 

[StuBurns]

Luke did not die. Nor is he gone. He ascended and became one with the Force. He was consumed by the Galaxy he wanted so badly to explore forty years ago.

He's literally floating while in a meditation pose.

He went from having been gone for a long time to saving the Resistance and reigniting the spirit of rebellion within an entire Galaxy.

I don't know what more people want from that dude, I really don't.

 

[Darcy]

This ties a bit the discussion with the "sympathetic" Kylo earlier in the thread. The personal tragedy doesn't excuse the actions. A lot of the serial killers had some abuse happening to them in their childhood. It helps understand the psychology behind but the actions are still inexcusable. The same with the Stormtroopers. Finn refuses to shoot innocent civilians for example.

Click to shrink...

Kylo is not conditioned to have his free will undeniably suppressed. The context is extremely different, and the comparison honestly difficult to make. Kylo, Snoke and Hux are the people doing the consciously immoral actions. And maybe the other officers? No idea.
Take the example of Finn, the guy was a janitor, and Jakku was his first mission. So of course his background his carefully build not to put any doubt into people's mind as to the fact he never did something bad. How many others like him are there? How many of his former friends did he kill (remember he awakened because his friend died)? Is it not weird in a way, when you are on repeating viewing and think about it more closely?

 

[Visanideth]

You are analysing it in a very robotic way. You could analyse the Nolan Batman films by saying "he's just a guy in a suit who repeatedly gets beaten to near-death, why would anyone care"? The point is that he's a symbol, he shows people that you can stand up and make a difference. The fact that in reality he almost got killed by some random drug dealer's dogs is not important. He makes himself more than just a man in the eyes of the people. In the Star Wars universe, hope is all-powerful. Luke restores hope.

Click to shrink...

I don't disagree with any of this (I think selling the story to generals and government will be a lot harder, but it's probably gonna be handwaved away), I'm just saying that the entire thing is based on a lie.

The moment people learn that Luke is dead, the propaganda stops working. The moment they know he was never actually there, the notion of his heroism is diminished.