Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

[Visanideth]

Truly important work. Deserving of credit.

Oh, and I call bullshit on that last part.

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Honestly I don't even dislike the movie that much, and still it's rather... peculiar to see the alt right or racists or the KKK or Trump supporters being invoked everytime someone dares to point out TLJ may not be perfect. I've been discussing SW releases ever since the Internet wasn't a thing and I've never seen such fanatic efforts in attempting to dispel any form of criticism towards the movie.

It's a tentpole Star Wars movie. It won't please EVERYBODY. It won't be impervious to criticism. It's bound to be full of plotholes and polarizing choices. It's ok.

 

[Mockerre]

No one's saying it doesn't have flaws. It's just that nearly all of the flaws being presented in this thread are fanboy nitpicks and not legitimate story-telling problems.

Also, yes, that gif was really insightful stuff. Absolutely not trolling.

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Feel free to read my posts about the nihilistic deconstructivism of TLJ, its pacing issues and the broken character arcs - because those are my main offenders.

 

[Inferno]

Honestly I don't even dislike the movie that much, and still it's rather... peculiar to see the alt right or racists or the KKK or Trump supporters being invoked everytime someone dares to point out TLJ may not be perfect. I've been discussing SW releases ever since the Internet wasn't a thing and I've never seen such fanatic efforts in attempting to dispel any form of criticism towards the movie.

It's a tentpole Star Wars movie. It won't please EVERYBODY. It won't be impervious to criticism. It's bound to be full of plotholes and polarizing choices. It's ok.

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I've only seen people bring up the alt-right as a response whenever a naysayer of the film tries to use it's RT User Score as argument that it's gotten a mixed reception. Which was bombed by the alt-right, that's a fact.

 

[Visanideth]

No one's saying it doesn't have flaws. It's just that nearly all of the flaws being presented in this thread are fanboy nitpicks and not legitimate story-telling problems.

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"I'm not saying it doesn't have flaws, I'm just saying the things you don't like or have problems with are made up or invalid or born from your own preconceived notions - nerd! - and expectations. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but you guys are 100% wrong".

Are you sure your position is the reasonable one?

 

[Inferno]

"I'm not saying it doesn't have flaws, I'm just saying the things you don't like or have problems with are made up or invalid or born from your own preconceived notions - nerd! - and expectations. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but you guys are 100% wrong".

Are you sure your position is the reasonable one?

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Yeah, I'm sure.

 

[FeD]

That's an interesting point actually.

Rian's talked about sitting down with JJ, talking about where he thinks his film has left off, and which threads could potentially be picked up, etc. But Trevorrow already wrote a film, and presumably JJ's read it, it's not like they don't know each other.

I wonder if it was as simple as Trevorrow's out, lets start from scratch. Blank page.

What about TFA too? The way JJ talks about it, it's like there was nothing when he started, but there was already a script, did none of it survive? Arndt still has a writing credit on the finished film. The guild obviously think enough of his work survived to have him included.

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Yeah true, we're gonna find that out probably. Abrams definitely knew exactly what Trevorrow was going to put in IX (the same way he knew what Johnson was going to do in VIII early on), so I do think he was more prepared to take over then it might have seemed.

I do think that Abrams is going to increase the scope of the film quite a bit to what Trevorrow probably had planned out. With him apparently wanting to tie all three trilogies together (when talking to a fan):

"They said that they're going to be brave and there will be big surprises. I got the impression that JJ felt like he had to refresh previous Star Wars moments for a modern audience in TFA, and now it feels like they have free reign to do what they want. Apparently they've had no interference from Kathleen or Pablo or the Lucasfilm Story Group. 9 is also the film which unites all three trilogies and brings everything together. That's all they would tell me."

"I worry a little bit that the questions I was asking were too leading. I was speaking to Chris and he was talking about the OT. I said about how I grew up with the PT and the prequels were my entry point into Star Wars. I asked about elements of the PT coming into 9 and Chris said about how 9 unites all of it. He said 9 definitely makes it feel like they're all happening in the same universe, and there would be PT elements in 9. They could be visual or thematic – he didn't overtly say that there would be returning planets or characters from the PT or anything."

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but still taking the story in a fresh direction (talking on a radio show):

"Well, it's certainly something that I'm aware of now working on Episode IX – coming back into this world after having done Episode VII. I feel like we need to approach this with the same excitement that we had when we were kids, loving what these movies were. And at the same time, we have to take them places that they haven't gone, and that's sort of our responsibility."

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So it sound quite ambitious but I cannot wait to see how it turns out. The first act of TFA is still top tier Star Wars and if he manages to carry that quality through an entire film we could have the best Star Wars film.

 

[Visanideth]

I mean, let's have some context: my favourite Star Wars movie is RotJ and I'm not even sure it's a good movie at all. It's fine to like (love!) flawed things.

 

[Famassu]

How does nature have a balance? Animals evolve to adapt to the naturally available resources, but that process is in no way separate from the 'people fucking it up'.

Jurassic Park is not set in the Star Wars universe, so I don't really see what your point is. In JP there isn't a God directing things, that doesn't mean there isn't in Star Wars. In JP, the scientists chose to use DNA from a type of frog that can change gender after birth. That's a failing of the humans. In Star Wars, Rey becomes equal in Force capability to Ren in like three days, because the Force wills it.

It seems pretty simple, if the Force has no will, then how does Rey become OP overnight?

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She's absolutely powerless against Snoke so I don't understand how you can even make such a claim with a straight face.

Besides, Force isn't about leveling up, it's more about the state of mind. Rey doesn't have as many hang-ups as Luke and she's fairly strong-willed after having had to survive alone, so she picks up some skills pretty quickly and doesn't fully succumb to Kylo's mind read. Doesn't mean she is OP.

 

[Solo]

I just looked up TFA and RO Bluray releases. Both were the first week of April.

So it stands to reason that TLJ will hit Bluray on April 3, 2018.

 

[Objektivity]

No one's saying it doesn't have flaws. It's just that it doesn't have any flaws!

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Mockerre, I for one appreciate you and I'm sure many others do too we just couldn't outlast the circlejerk and alt right accusations.

 

[StuBurns]

I just looked up TFA and RO Bluray releases. Both were the first week of April.

So it stands to reason that TLJ will hit Bluray on April 3, 2018.

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Hopefully we see a UHD release of TFA at the same time.

 

[THErest]

How does nature have a balance? Animals evolve to adapt to the naturally available resources, but that process is in no way separate from the 'people fucking it up'.

Jurassic Park is not set in the Star Wars universe, so I don't really see what your point is. In JP there isn't a God directing things, that doesn't mean there isn't in Star Wars. In JP, the scientists chose to use DNA from a type of frog that can change gender after birth. That's a failing of the humans. In Star Wars, Rey becomes equal in Force capability to Ren in like three days, because the Force wills it.
ent
It seems pretty simple, if the Force has no will, then how does Rey become OP overnight? TLJ seems pretty clearly to state that the Force does have a will.

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I wanted to say "life finds a way" and spun off on a JP tangent. It really doesn't have to do with anything.

By balance I meant ecosystems. Animals do evolve to adapt to new challenges. Perhaps the universe or the Force adapts to a challenge in the form of a Snoke or a Kylo Ren. If you can acknowledge evolution occurs without a will behind it, then surely you can see the problem with the argument that the Force has to have a will.

Rey didn't become OP overnight either. She said it herself in TLJ. It's always been there.

EDIT: I'm developing film, and I'm pretty sure I botched this roll typing this post. Overdeveloped by 45 seconds. Oops.

 

[Inferno]

Hopefully we see a UHD release of TFA at the same time.

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I opted, at least for now, for the 4K Apple TV over a UHD player. Hoping Disney and Apple work their shit out by then.

 

[Dook's Revenge]

I've been delayed by holidays and work, but will be spoiling ep9 within the week. It appears that the single clue to unlock everything has remained unnoticed by the internet.

 

[Lizzy]

Yeah, I'm sure.

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Just curious here. What don't you like about the film?

 

[Inferno]

I mean, let's have some context: my favourite Star Wars movie is RotJ and I'm not even sure it's a good movie at all. It's fine to like (love!) flawed things.

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And it's also fine to dislike something, while realizing that the things you dislike are actually just nitpicks and not an actual problem with the film as a piece of filmmaking.

 

[Solo]

I've been delayed by holidays and work, but will be spoiling ep9 within the week. It appears that the single clue to unlock everything has remained unnoticed by the internet.

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I love it when we get the spoils of a yet-unwritten film! ;)

 

[StuBurns]

I wanted to say "life finds a way" and spun off on a JP tangent. It really doesn't have to do with anything.

By balance I meant ecosystems. Animals do evolve to adapt to new challenges. Perhaps the universe or the Force adapts to a challenge in the form of a Snoke or a Kylo Ren. If you can acknowledge evolution occurs without a will behind it, then surely you can see the problem with the argument that the Force has to have a will.

Rey didn't become OP overnight either. She said it herself in TLJ. It's always been there.

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She's always been Force sensitive, presumably. She's always dreamed of the Jedi Temple, we know she's special before TFA starts, but she went from seemingly normal-ish, like no actual Force uses in her life, to being on par with the second most powerful dark Force user overnight.

Moreover, it's not about her evolution, it's about how it happened.

We know that Snoke claims he knew someone would be awoken to be Ren's equal. We know the lightsaber called to Rey, and gave her a vision, a vision that JJ refers to as a 'Force Vision', what is a Force vision? If the Force has no will, or intent, how can it curate a vision? How can it call to a specific person?

It's nothing like the 'balance' we experience. It is directed to a specific person, and with their very own highly edited VR experience.

 

[Mockerre]

"I'm not saying it doesn't have flaws, I'm just saying the things you don't like or have problems with are made up or invalid or born from your own preconceived notions - nerd! - and expectations. I'm not saying I'm 100% right, but you guys are 100% wrong".

Are you sure your position is the reasonable one?

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Yeah, I'm sure.

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This seems reasonable. Also RT made a statement denying it was review-bombed.

Mockerre, I for one appreciate you and I'm sure many others do too we just couldn't outlast the circlejerk and alt right accusations.

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Thank you.

 

[Sephzilla]

I'm not sure this makes sense given what happened in TLJ. The whole point of Luke in TLJ is to demonstrate how the old Jedi Order was bad. Yoda even says students are what mentors move beyond.

As I see it, a more appropriate path for Rey in IX is dealing with the fact that she has to kill Kylo but she's reluctant to do it. Eventually, she's convinced it's gotta happen. Some people gotta get got. Then she wrecks him. And the Knights of Ren.

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Yeah, I'd be 100% okay with this

 

[Dook's Revenge]

I love it when we get the spoils of a yet-unwritten film! ;)

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Did you love it when, long before the Disney sale, I accurately predicted when a new trilogy would be announced?

I'm using my tried-and-true methods.

Fwiw, "unwritten" doesn't mean "not outlined."

 

[Darcy]

No one's saying it doesn't have flaws. It's just that nearly all of the flaws being presented in this thread are fanboy nitpicks and not legitimate story-telling problems.

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I think Mockerre has been the most articulate in expressing legitimate criticism about the movie, story-telling issues included. Some people HAVE legitimate arguments, they either are not able to properly get to the core of their idea and/or get some of their weaker argumentations nitpicked to death, then their whole work reduced to these nitpicks.
Some people are also very ridiculous, and not only on the """hating""" side. One guy in particular implied on twitter that a movie should only be experienced, and trying to criticize it on the internet (no matter how good the argument is) is just an attempt to get cheap attention.

 

[Solo]

Did you love it when, long before the Disney sale, I accurately predicted when a new trilogy would be announced?

I'm using my tried-and-true methods.

Fwiw, "unwritten" doesn't mean "not outlined."

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I'm just teasing. We know JJ pitched his outline to Iger like 3 weeks ago, so there does exist something in some form.

 

[Deleted member 19218]

*shrugs* for all your talk, you're just expressing the beliefs of certain characters in the series. There is definitely a belief within the Star Wars universe that the force has a manifestation or will.

You're basically saying 'there is no god' and well, prove it.

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I'm not going to get into a religious debate about the existence of God. You will have to find someone else for that.

The force is not God though, it's an energy like karma and therefore doesn't make decisions.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Yeah, I'm sure.

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If you are asked, what are the things you consider as reasonable flaws of the movie, what would be your answer?

Actually, everyone else feel free to answer that as well. I'm curious.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Why am I back in this thread

 

[Inferno]

Just curious here. What don't you like about the film?

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I would've liked to have seen more done with Phasma, feels like there's material that was left on the table with her character. I would've liked to have seen Holdo actually have briefly been shown to have been queer in the film, not just in the supplemental material, for the sake of representation. I would've liked to have seen Rey be a little more relevant to the Crait battle, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the movie sidelines her in the finale, but I feel like it's a bit of a minor pacing issue in that the finale of her arc occurs a little too early relative to the actual finale of the film.

Those are some minor criticisms I have. I'll admit that I do wholly love the movie though, as I feel like it's the first genuinely idiosyncratic Star Wars film since Empire. This weird mish-mash of influences ranging from Kurosawa to Spaceballs to Battlestar Galactica to Wings to Hitchcock really give it a cinematic life in a way that even the strong entries in the franchise haven't had since 1980.

 

[Dook's Revenge]

I'm just teasing. We know JJ pitched his outline to Iger like 3 weeks ago, so there does exist something in some form.

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No u

 

[Deleted member 5666]

Also RT made a statement denying it was review-bombed.

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Except they never said that. Making up stuff to prove your point just makes your point seem all the more foolish.

All RT said was the user reviews were legitimate accounts....which no one denied. The argument is people flooded RT with reviews to purposely pull down the score due to their crazy anti-SJW, anti-losing the EU, etc agendas. Not that RT was hacked.

 

[Lizzy]

I would've liked to have seen more done with Phasma, feels like there's material that was left on the table with her character. I would've liked to have seen Holdo actually have briefly been shown to have been queer in the film, not just in the supplemental material, for the sake of representation. I would've liked to have seen Rey be a little more relevant to the Crait battle, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the movie sidelines her in the finale, but I feel like it's a bit of a minor pacing issue in that the finale of her arc occurs a little too early relative to the actual finale of the film.

Those are some minor criticisms I have. I'll admit that I do wholly love the movie though, as I feel like it's the first genuinely idiosyncratic Star Wars film since Empire. This weird mish-mash of influences ranging from Kurosawa to Spaceballs to Battlestar Galactica to Wings to Hitchcock really give it a cinematic life in a way that even the strong entries in the franchise haven't had since 1980.

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This bugs me a lot. For me, it's just one part of the film's problems with Rey in being reluctant to allow her to be the hero until the very end. For most of the film it seems to want to try this half-hearted dark side temptation plot but then it's like ehhhhhhhh I kinda don't wanna do this?

 

[Deleted member 11995]

Honestly I don't even dislike the movie that much, and still it's rather... peculiar to see the alt right or racists or the KKK or Trump supporters being invoked everytime someone dares to point out TLJ may not be perfect...

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I dunno man. Either that's paranoia, or I'm just really out of touch.

 

[prag16]

I've only seen people bring up the alt-right as a response whenever a naysayer of the film tries to use it's RT User Score as argument that it's gotten a mixed reception. Which was bombed by the alt-right, that's a fact.

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I don't have receipts handy, but being present for these OTs I don't think that's the case.

We do/did also have people screaming "SEXIST!" etc when people at all questioned Rey's 'power levels' and learning/training arc. It's a fact that the 'defenders' have been far FAR more aggressive and condescending than the "nitpickers'. Or scab pickers as Bobby likes to refer to us.

 

[THErest]

She's always been Force sensitive, presumably. She's always dreamed of the Jedi Temple, we know she's special before TFA starts, but she went from seemingly normal-ish, like no actual Force uses in her life, to being on par with the second most powerful dark Force user overnight.

Moreover, it's not about her evolution, it's about how it happened.

We know that Snoke claims he knew someone would be awoken to be Ren's equal. We know the lightsaber called to Rey, and gave her a vision, a vision that JJ refers to as a 'Force Vision', what is a Force vision? If the Force has no will, or intent, how can is curate a vision? How can it call to a specific person?

It's nothing like the 'balance' we experience. It is directed to a specific person, and with their very own highly edited VR experience.

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She was denying/repressing the truth about her family her whole life. She could have easily done the same with her Force abilities. If you don't believe, you fail, remember?

You may have just argued that the lightsaber crystal has a will. Or it has a record of past/future visions involving Skywalkers and Jedi that Rey is sensitive to. Or maybe it was a conduit that Yoda and Ben used to give her a vision? I mean, they have a will, and their voices were heard in the vision. Doesn't mean the Force does. Past the lightsaber, other visions came from her own meditation.

At this point, she curates (nice word choice there, implying will) things herself, except for those times Snoke gave her visions. She looks for Kylo. She looks for her place. Just like Luke, from Dagobah, looked for his friends in Cloud City. Rey has a will. Luke has a will. The Force Visions could merely be light in a mystic telescope.

My cat calls to me. She even shows me what I need to know or do (feed her, pet her). I'm not so sure she has a will, however. She is an animal.

We could argue for or against all day. I'm saying that the idea that the Force absolutely demonstrably has a will is far from proven or a fact.

 

[Inferno]

I don't have receipts handy, but being present for these OTs I don't think that's the case.

We do/did also have people screaming "SEXIST!" etc when people at all questioned Rey's 'power levels' and learning/training arc. It's a fact that the 'defenders' have been far FAR more aggressive and condescending than the "nitpickers'. Or scab pickers as Bobby likes to refer to us.

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Well yeah. Because the "mary sue" criticism is a sexist one.

Like.. fuck's sake, guys. The dude who started that train of thought has been outed as a rapist.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

I dont think there is a single person who would say that the Mary Sue criticisms on Rey are anything but blatantly sexist.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Juggling Luke and Rey was always going to be difficult. It's one of the main reasons why Michael Arndt struggled so much with the original screenplay for TFA. Luke turned up halfway through and the new characters were sidelined. I thought Rian handled it well in TLJ. Rey does take a bit of a back seat at Crait but I felt it was inevitable she'd have to at some point when Luke and Kylo reunited. She still has plenty of great moments and obviously in IX she'll be at the forefront even more.

 

[Solo]

No u

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So when will your big reveal be? Will you make a new thread for it?

 

[Deleted member 135]

I really hope that people here aren't going to automatically equate people who don't like or have big problems with TLJ with the sexist/racist alt-right fuckfaces complaining about Rey, Holdo, and Rose.

 

[THErest]

Did you love it when, long before the Disney sale, I accurately predicted when a new trilogy would be announced?

I'm using my tried-and-true methods.

Fwiw, "unwritten" doesn't mean "not outlined."

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Years ago I predicted female force-sensitive non-Skywalker main character. I judged based on how hard I'd sigh and roll my eyes should they do another male and/or Skywalker Force user. Do I get a prize?

 

[Inferno]

I really hope that people here aren't going to automatically equate people who don't like or have big problems with TLJ with the sexist/racist alt-right fuckfaces complaining about Rey, Holdo, and Rose.

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I don't think anyone is doing that?

 

[Deleted member 5666]

I really hope that people here aren't going to automatically equate people who don't like or have big problems with TLJ with the sexist/racist alt-right fuckfaces complaining about Rey, Holdo, and Rose.

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Of course not.

If you attack the movie for sexist reasons like saying Rey is too "good" or too skilled, etc without leveling the same criticism at Luke in the OT. Then yeah you deserve to be called out for being sexist.

 

[Famassu]

Rey was pretty central to the finale. She comes in and draws the tie figthers to pursuit her and then she helps the rebels escape by using the Force in what is the dramatic climax of the movie. Yeah she has a little less screentime near the end but she's still a key figure in the actual things that happen during the finale. If she had just waited in space for the battle to be over, then you could argue she is side-lined but as it is she's important to it.

 

[Darcy]

Well yeah. Because the "mary sue" criticism is a sexist one.

Like.. fuck's sake, guys. The dude who started that train of thought has been outed as a rapist.

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Guilty by ""association"", thanks.
Let's not try to define what are the core original elements of the Mary Sue/GARY STU benchmark (that are actually in the argument not gendered), let's just stick to the convenient fact it got ridiculously weaponized politically.

 

[Orb]

I really hope that people here aren't going to automatically equate people who don't like or have big problems with TLJ with the sexist/racist alt-right fuckfaces complaining about Rey, Holdo, and Rose.

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It's one thing to have legitimate complaints about things you disliked about the storytelling and characters. It's another thing entirely to say things like "they should have cut the Asian chick's role, she was useless."

 

[Inferno]

Rey was pretty central to the finale. She comes in and draws the tie figthers to pursuit her and then she helps the rebels escape by using the Force in what is the dramatic climax of the movie. Yeah she has a little less screentime near the end but she's still a key figure in the actual things that happen during the finale. If she had just waited in space for the battle to be over, then you could aegue she is side-lined but as it is she's important to it.

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Right, which is why I said she's not really side-lined, just that it's more of a pacing issue. She has a full arc. She has a finale. Hers just comes about 15 minutes earlier than everyone else's.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

It's one thing to have legitimate complaints about things you disliked about the storytelling and characters. It's another thing entirely to say things like "they should have cut the Asian chick's role, she was useless."

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We had blatant racist attacks leveled at the film in this very thread when people have insisted that Rose was only in the film to "appeal to China" despite the fact she is not Chinese.

 

[StuBurns]

We could argue for or against all day. I'm saying that the idea that the Force absolutely demonstrably has a will is far from proven or a fact.

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Sure. And we could debate determinism and quantic mechanics, maybe you don't have a will either... It's never going to be proven.

Simply put, Snoke says the Force was going to awaken someone to be equal to Ren, I take that to mean he believes the Force has a will. That to me was also an addressing of the 'Mary Sue/Rey's OP criticism'. I.E. Yes, she's OP, but that's because the Force can accelerate someone's Force development as it sees fit, and it sees fit to give Ren a counterpart.

I agree that it isn't a proven fact, but I also don't believe there is anything the film could have done to prove it to someone who doesn't want to accept it.

 

[prag16]

Well yeah. Because the "mary sue" criticism is a sexist one.

Like.. fuck's sake, guys. The dude who started that train of thought has been outed as a rapist.

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I'm talking about these OTs. I haven't been able to read every single one of the thousands of posts obviously, but the discussions I've seen and participated in about Rey haven't had people referring to her as a Mary Sue. People did detailed accounts of her feats vs. those of Anakin and Luke and it's not close. Rey is a prodigy by comparison. Which is okay if that's the way they want to go. And I still like Rey and the movie, personally. But it's 100% understandable that some people feel it's too quick and easy or that it's unearned.

I dont think there is a single person who would say that the Mary Sue criticisms on Rey are anything but blatantly sexist.

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I'm sure sexism is a motivator for some or Rey's critics. But the reverse isn't necessarily true; all critics are not automatically coming from a place of sexism. Especially not on this forum. Stop claiming this bullshit.

Of course not.

If you attack the movie for sexist reasons like saying Rey is too "good" or too skilled, etc without leveling the same criticism at Luke in the OT. Then yeah you deserve to be called out for being sexist.

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This is complete horse shit.

EDIT

It's one thing to have legitimate complaints about things you disliked about the storytelling and characters. It's another thing entirely to say things like "they should have cut the Asian chick's role, she was useless."

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So people can't criticize the Rose character or her role without automatically being sexist? That's nonsense.

We had blatant racist attacks leveled at the film in this very thread when people have insisted that Rose was only in the film to "appeal to China" despite the fact she is not Chinese.

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Okay, I hadn't seen that one. There's an example of actual bullshit criticism. But don't use that type of stuff to paint everyone with issues/complaints with the same broad brush.

 

[Famassu]

Right, which is why I said she's not really side-lined, just that it's more of a pacing issue. She has a full arc. She has a finale. Hers just comes about 15 minutes earlier than everyone else's.

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The Kylo vs Rey confrontation was a bit more of a climax to their relationship's subplot in TLJ but both Kylo and Rey have more for their individual arcs to still go and the moment with Luke brings both of theirs individual TLJ journey to a close, to show how far he has fallen and how Rey is going to go forward with the Jedi path.

 

[Deleted member 5666]

It's an absolute fact that Luke accomplished as much if not more in ANH without training as Rey did in TFA.

So criticizing the female character for that but not the male one is absolutely sexist. No question.

This isn't about TLJ story criticism but if you attempt to go down the skill level criticism there is nothing to back that up.