Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

[Visanideth]

Everything really does have to be literal, spoonfed and straightforward with you. :/

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I don't think you understand what I mean here. I keep saying "I think this scene is poorly written" and I keep being told "How it can be poorly written if the Force can do pretty much anything?". I'm simply saying that just because you can write it, it doesn't mean it's good. Is that such an outrageous concept?

How can a movie be possibly bad if we don't accept that?

 

[Alice]

Nobody is trying to persuade you of this.

You keep bringing it up but nobody is trying to answer your plot nitpicks by saying "Well, it was all planned out from the beginning."

Or at the least, I'm not.

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Maybe a random George Lucas popped up somewhere.

I don't think you understand what I mean here. I keep saying "I think this scene is poorly written" and I keep being told "How it can be poorly written if the Force can do pretty much anything?". I'm simply saying that just because you can write it, it doesn't mean it's good. Is that such an outrageous concept?

How can a movie be possibly bad if we don't accept that?

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreliable_narrator

 

[MagicHobo]

Hey don't look at me, I've been told if I interpret the scene somehow it's headcanon.

But your explanation does make sense once you've seen TLJ, and as such it IS the correct interpretation of those events (that the piece with the Knights is the future is debatable, I still feel that plotline will be dropped, but everything else checks).

I'm saying at the time a lot more interpretations were possible, and many of them were more "logical" than the actual one, as they didn't require to ignore some pieces and flip around others. It's an abstract vision, you can fundamentally retrofit it to any extabilished continuum (and you do rather nicely), but I'm still not persuaded that "it's all been planned from the beginning".

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This is fair, but I don't think it was ever the argument. I don't think anybody is arguing it's all been planned out, because it very clearly hasn't. Nor do I personally think the Knights vision is of the future, I think it is probably just a flashback to frame the threat.

However, my understanding is the argument has never been whether it's been planned, but the value of the storytelling and whether it is cohesive or disjoined and/or poorly written. I maintain that they joined it up pretty good, and the end result is well written.

If your argument was "it was poorly planned' then I might be more sympathetic, but I think JJ's loose bump/set in the air has been very cleanly spiked by Rian, with a little room for JJ to do some spiking on his own.

 

[Inferno]

I don't think you understand what I mean here. I keep saying "I think this scene is poorly written" and I keep being told "How it can be poorly written if the Force can do pretty much anything?". I'm simply saying that just because you can write it, it doesn't mean it's good. Is that such an outrageous concept?

How can a movie be possibly bad if we don't accept that?

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Why do you think it's poorly written? You're not doing a good job of breaking that down.

 

[Visanideth]

Nobody is trying to persuade you of this.

You keep bringing it up but nobody is trying to answer your plot nitpicks by saying "Well, it was all planned out from the beginning."

Or at the least, I'm not.

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So what's the issue with me saying "That vision is JJ throwing shit at the wall and letting other decide what sticks"?

I don't think it's particularly brilliant writing, and honestly I think the blame is on Kennedy's policy with these movies, but honestly it's really not that important. I would rather have an unified, more consistent vision for the story? Yes. Are the movies good despite the lack of it? Also yes, so whatever. Let's roll.

 

[KingSnake]

Partially, but the vision of the Knights isn't when Kylo kills the Jedi, so theres no reason to believe Kylo wouldn't have been wearing the mask at that point anyway.

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The vision with Knights of Ren is on a rainy battlefield with lots of corpses around. Looks like a battlefield or a massacre. It could have happened before TFA but it might as well happen in Episode 9.

 

[Mockerre]

Lightsaber Rifle please: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_rifle

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I love the new EU, it really shows Disney's hand: in the end it's both inconsequential and as bonkers as some of the old EU.

 

[Visanideth]

This is fair, but I don't think it was ever the argument. I don't think anybody is arguing it's all been planned out, because it very clearly hasn't. Nor do I personally think the Knights vision is of the future, I think it is probably just a flashback to frame the threat.

However, my understanding is the argument has never been whether it's been planned, but the value of the storytelling and whether it is cohesive or disjoined and/or poorly written. I maintain that they joined it up pretty good, and the end result is well written.

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I disagree, but that obviously doesn't make you wrong.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

This begs the question: why would he have the mask in the vision? Rey's never seen him. He doesn't make any more sense to her seeing him with the mask.

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Does it really BEG the question? Harrison Ford Who Gives a Shit.gif

 

[sphagnum]

I love the new EU, it really shows Disney's hand: in the end it's both inconsequential and as bonkers as some of the old EU.

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Every now and then something truly bizarre pops up like Dr. Cylo's space whales but in general it's much more cohesive and "grounded".

It's unfortunately also rather necessary for those of us who want more of a political element to the ST era.

 

[Visanideth]

Why do you think it's poorly written? You're not doing a good job of breaking that down.

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Within the context of TFA, I didn't particularly like it because I think visions in general are a lazy story device designed to create expectations and muddle the waters with future plot developments. It's also an overlong sequence with literally a dozen things to pick up that feels more like a trailer for the rest of the saga.

After TLJ, it kind of gets worse because the entire sequence sets up things that later one get contradicted/dismissed (let's talk about force theatrics: when Luke touched R2D2 in the vision, he has his hood on, but in the real version of the fact we see in TLJ, he doesn't) and it all feels incredibly artificial and "staged". I know, we can say force powers work in mysterious ways and Rey saw what she needed to see; but the fact that I can rationalize pretty much anything is also what led me for claiming TPM was a good movie for almost a week. Sometimes our capability to accept the absurd is our biggest enemy.

 

[Halbrand]

If there were any plans for Kylo to be redeemed in IX it probably depended heavily on Leia.

 

[Visanideth]

Does it really BEG the question? Harrison Ford Who Gives a Shit.gif

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Trust me, I agree - we spent two pages discussing the worst sequence in TFA, and if I type "this is really a minor thing and not really worth discussing" another time I'll become a broken record.

 

[Alice]

Every now and then something truly bizarre pops up like Dr. Cylo's space whales but in general it's much more cohesive and "grounded".

It's unfortunately also rather necessary for those of us who want more of a political element to the ST era.

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Werent those the same Space Whales from Rebels? I found his Weirdo Squad of Random Sith Replacements a lot weirder.

I do genuinely love that Stormtrooper troop led by the one lightsaber guy, though.

 

[Veelk]

It's not the force, it's the people writing this stuff.

Guys, let's remember none of this is real. The Force does not exist. There's a guy (or several guys) writing this stuff and the fact that they can say "a space wizard did it" does not make every single piece of writing good.

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Sure, but "a space wizard did it' was the explanation for most of the originals too. People are just coming down to "Well that's what the space wizard did then, so how can it possibly do more now?"

It's people thinking there are hard, rigid rules of what the force can and cannot do, when it is just space magic that doesn't have any. And yeah, that's because the writers make it that way, but also the fact that it's diegetically built up that way by the characters who understand the force.

And it's really noticable that it only seems to ever apply to Rey. Take force lightning. It was never, ever established in the OT that Force Ghosts can use lightning. That was a skill only reserved for the evil jedi who want to shoot lightning out of their hands. And then, in TLJ, Yoda uses the never before seen trick of calling down lightning, not from his hands, but from the sky. Holy shit, how can he do this? Doesn't he know the OT established lightning could be shot from the hands? How can it come from the sky as well? TLJ just throwing out ALL the rules, right?

This is the same gist. Yeah, it's new. So what?

 

[sphagnum]

Werent those the same Space Whales from Rebels? I found his Weirdo Squad of Random Sith Replacements a lot weirder.

I do genuinely love that Stormtrooper troop led by the one lightsaber guy, though.

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I don't think they were purrgils unless it was just a difference in appearance that could be chalked up to artistic license. Purrgils have weird tentacle-like tails and no real fins while Cylo's fleet have four fins and one big tail. And they look meaner. And they're not purple!

 

[Evil Calvin]

JJ had no real involvement with Lost after the Pilot

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Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

 

[Inferno]

Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

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Oh. So it's a Star Wars trilogy.

 

[Bobby]

.

 

[Halbrand]

Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

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As much as I'd love the whole thing outlined out, this has always been Star Wars.

 

[Mockerre]

Every now and then something truly bizarre pops up like Dr. Cylo's space whales but in general it's much more cohesive and "grounded".

It's unfortunately also rather necessary for those of us who want more of a political element to the ST era.

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I always skim the new comic books, but I feel nothing really happens in them. I remember the old stories, they were bonkers, but moved the world forward. Now everything is beholden to the movies, so the stories can't really expand the world that much; at least, that's the feeling I had.

But there's always place for the ol' Lightsaber Rifle of the Old Librarian from AOTC.

 

[Solo]

AND....seems to be made up as they go/QUOTE]


You are describing literally 99% of TV shows and film series that have ever been made.

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[Surfinn]

Luke literally says near the end of the film in reference to ben solo: 'no one is ever really gone'. this is coming from the guy that failed. The guy you insist is the reason kylo can never turn. The guy who is also dead now.

Luke still failed. Nothing that happens going forward is going to 'invalidate' his failure. That's just something in your own head that you're apparently hung up about.


Yes, everybody else failed. Because they weren't his equal in the light. The only one who could ever hope to stand a chance of turning him is Rey. the movie attempts to ram this point home into your skull, multiple times.


really, You aren't giving any compelling reasons why rey couldn't turn him other than it's not what you personally prefer.

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Yeah and like I said, he says that because Kylo still has light in him. But there's a difference between having light and actually turning.

Lol it's interesting that you bring up the movie beating you over the head with Rey being the only one to turn him. She actually fails to do what she set out to, which is turn Ben to the light.

So let me get this straight. You're telling me after TFA and TLJ beat the audience over the head that Kylo will never turn to the light, after his dad, Luke and Rey all attempt to turn him or keep him there, he's going to magically turn? What, he just suddenly tells Rey "you were right about me, even though I refused you last film"?

You have provided zero evidence to support the idea that he can be turned while I've provided a boatload of why he never will.

It's not that I personally don't want to to happen, it's that it makes no sense whatsoever narratively.

And you refuse to present any argument at all and deflect with "it's just what you want!"

And Kylo turning back to the light tells us "Luke and Leia are fucking idiots, they accepted that Kylo is lost but.. Wait! He's magically good in the end and they were wrong, for no reason at all!"

You weren't paying attention. Luke says he's going to face Kylo, but that he cannot save him. Then when Kylo asks if Luke is there to save his soul, Luke says no.

Shit got brought full circle. Before Luke passes, he faces Kylo again with the acceptance of his failure and a new purpose.

And the person most capable of turning him spent all of TLJ trying to do it and failed.

 

[Visanideth]

Sure, but "a space wizard did it' was the explanation for most of the originals too. People are just coming down to "Well that's what the space wizard did then, so how can it possibly do more now?"

It's people thinking there are hard, rigid rules of what the force can and cannot do, when it is just space magic that doesn't have any. And yeah, that's because the writers make it that way, but also the fact that it's diegetically built up that way by the characters who understand the force.

And it's really noticable that it only seems to ever apply to Rey. Take force lightning. It was never, ever established in the OT that Force Ghosts can use lightning. That was a skill only reserved for the evil jedi who want to shoot lightning out of their hands. And then, in TLJ, Yoda uses the never before seen trick of calling down lightning, not from his hands, but from the sky. Holy shit, how can he do this? Doesn't he know the OT established lightning could be shot from the hands? How can it come from the sky as well? TLJ just throwing out ALL the rules, right?

This is the same gist. Yeah, it's new. So what?

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Oh look, I agree completely, but that's exactly my point.

For example, I think TLJ has the full right to introduce new force powers at its own leisure (EVERY SW movie introduced new force powers). But I reserve the right to say that I dislike some. Rey and Kylo's mental "visions" rub me the wrong way, but they also facilitate some great interaction so I forgive the hiccups too (the shirtless scene is Twilight material, in my opinion, but again, who cares really).

I don't mind Force Projection existing, but I mind the way it's used: I think it diminishes Luke's character and also is a consequence of a choice (keeping Luke on Ach'too for the whole movie) that I feel is inferior to the alternative (having Luke move and interact with the cast). That's of course a very personal opinion; I think a large part of the plot of TLJ is far from stellar writing (or at least the best use of the characters) but there's plenty of people in the thread gushing about the movie and clearly disagreeing with me. It's all about tastes, opinions and interpretations.

 

[sphagnum]

I always skim the new comic books, but I feel nothing really happens in them. I remember the old stories, they were bonkers, but moved the world forward. Now everything is beholden to the movies, so the stories can't really expand the world that much; at least, that's the feeling I had.

But there's always place for the ol' Lightsaber Rifle of the Old Librarian from AOTC.

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Well yeah, that's a problem with the new canon if that's what you meant by inconsequential. Since the ST already establishes how the galaxy is going to turn out, they can't treat post-RotJ stuff as "the next part of the saga" like they could with Dark Empire or the Thrawn trilogy. Everything currently is "in between" adventures, though they can be used for character exploration and worldbuilding/political intrigue.

The comic that is by far the best at feeling fresh is Aphra since it's not beholden to the wider plot. The stakes are smaller but it's a totally different story that doesn't have to worry about what Luke is doing at x point in the timeline or whatever.

 

[Evil Calvin]

As much as I'd love the whole thing outlined out, this has always been Star Wars.

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Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning...but I'm sure that changed a lot. Plus, if the prequels WERE outlined from the beginning it didn't help them one bit.

 

[Inferno]

Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning...but I'm sure that changed a lot. Plus, if the prequels WERE outlined from the beginning it didn't help them one bit.

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Vader being Luke's father wasn't even in the original draft of ESB. It was added in a rewrite. There was nothing concrete planned.

 

[Mockerre]

Well yeah, that's a problem with the new canon if that's what you meant by inconsequential. Since the ST already establishes how the galaxy is going to turn out, they can't treat post-RotJ stuff as "the next part of the saga" like they could with Dark Empire or the Thrawn trilogy. Everything currently is "in between" adventures, though they can be used for character exploration and worldbuilding/political intrigue.

The comic that is by far the best at feeling fresh is Aphra since it's not beholden to the wider plot. The stakes are smaller but it's a totally different story that doesn't have to worry about what Luke is doing at x point in the timeline or whatever.

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That's what I meant. Though the old EU also meddled with the movies, like SotE did. The adventures of Poe Dameron are a slog. The Star Wars main comic has the worst art i've seen in a comic for a long time (the painted over movie still for faces give me nightmares).

Heard good things about Aphra, but can't really stomach the C3PO/R2D2/Chewbacca evil alter egos.

 

[Alice]

Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning...but I'm sure that changed a lot. Plus, if the prequels WERE outlined from the beginning it didn't help them one bit.

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No he didn't. He's been talking out of his ass for decades.

 

[shtolky]

Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning...but I'm sure that changed a lot. Plus, if the prequels WERE outlined from the beginning it didn't help them one bit.

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In a 2008 interview in Total Film, Lucas ruled out anybody else making Star Wars films. Asked if he was happy for new Star Wars films to be made after his death, he said: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married."

 

[Gleethor]

I poke my head back in here and lo and behold it's Bobby. Glad you changed your mind about joining.

 

[Veelk]

Oh look, I agree completely, but that's exactly my point.

For example, I think TLJ has the full right to introduce new force powers at its own leisure (EVERY SW movie introduced new force powers). But I reserve the right to say that I dislike some. Rey and Kylo's mental "visions" rub me the wrong way, but they also facilitate some great interaction so I forgive the hiccups too (the shirtless scene is Twilight material, in my opinion, but again, who cares really).

I don't mind Force Projection existing, but I mind the way it's used: I think it diminishes Luke's character and also is a consequence of a choice (keeping Luke on Ach'too for the whole movie) that I feel is inferior to the alternative (having Luke move and interact with the cast). That's of course a very personal opinion; I think a large part of the plot of TLJ is far from stellar writing (or at least the best use of the characters) but there's plenty of people in the thread gushing about the movie and clearly disagreeing with me. It's all about tastes, opinions and interpretations.

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Sure, and I can totally sympathize with that, if not agree with it.

What I can't sympathize is how a lot of complaints come down to the idea that if it wasn't in the original, then the characters shouldn't be able to do it, which is what the force vision complaint sounded like.

 

[Evil Calvin]

In a 2008 interview in Total Film, Lucas ruled out anybody else making Star Wars films. Asked if he was happy for new Star Wars films to be made after his death, he said: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII–IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married."

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Well, all I know is that I have a Starlog magazine from late 70's or early 80's which has some of his outlines of all 9 movies. I still have that somewhere. He must be senile.

 

[Bobby]

.

 

[Waffles]

Good shit Bobby.

 

[Visanideth]

Oh hey, might as well:

For those of you not very enamored of the music of The Force Awakens, Rogue One, and The Last Jedi, I spent part of Christmas break putting together a 3-part podcast series for Full of Sith specifically about the soundtrack to the most recent film (which also touches on TFA and RO) and how it reinforces the character work and themes of the film.

Basically, if you've ever heard Star Wars Oxygen w/ David Collins, it's... kinda like that. Except different because I'm not as smooth, or as smart, or as experienced as he is in the realm of composition. But it's similar-ish in aim.

Maybe by the end of the series you won't have changed your mind much, but if you think Williams didn't write enough new themes/motifs in TFA and TLJ, I might be able to at least provide some evidence to the contrary, and maybe even change your mind as to how its usage in the films is actually good.

"How the Force Works (pts 1-3)"

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Nice! Definitely gonna listen to this later.

I think the criticism over William's work in the ST is exaggerated. There's several fantastic themes in TFA (Rey's Theme and March of the Resistance above all) and I'm sure that once I get my hands on TLJ's OST I'll find more.

I remember people being down on the PT OST in the days, claiming it was too bombastic and intrusive, and now a lot of people agree it's the best of the saga. Give it time and people will turn around on the PT music too.

 

[Seeya]

Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

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It is true that the cracks are showing more than ever before. The world building and logical explanation of the world is at an all time low. Even the horrid PT did a far better job than this.

I always skim the new comic books, but I feel nothing really happens in them. I remember the old stories, they were bonkers, but moved the world forward. Now everything is beholden to the movies, so the stories can't really expand the world that much; at least, that's the feeling I had.

But there's always place for the ol' Lightsaber Rifle of the Old Librarian from AOTC.

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That's why I have more interest in stories that are period pieces (set in the PT or Old Republic) than anything that's happening in the era of the ST. It's all busy work at best and at worst it feel like they put out to compensate for a lack of information given in the actual movies.

 

[Visanideth]

Moving on: one of the things that soured the last leg of the movie (I really disliked Crait I guess) is how it approached Kylo.

Kylo has a FANTASTIC arc in TLJ until the Holdo maneuver scene. He's tormented (in a relatable and well acted way), he confronts Rey with good arguments and persuasive motives, he pulls a great stunt on Snoke, he has a good fight scene. After he becomes Supreme Leader, he kinds of reverts back to his tantrum-inclined, mustache twirling bad guy persona.

Worse yet is how the movie has both Luke and Leia completely give up on him. He's lost and beyond redemption which... kind of wastes everything that happened before. It's uncharacteristic for Luke to give up on family like that (he had a lot more reasons to give up on his father and he didn't), it's bizarre for Leia to do the same after their moment earlier in the movie, it's generally weird for the movie to take everything that was set up before and pretty much throw it away. It does make sense, as Kylo is clearly devastated by Rey's refusal, but it also strongly diminishes the character, robbing him of much of the tridimensionality the first half of the movie highlighted so well.

 

[Jiggy]

Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning

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lol no he didn't

 

[Alice]

LOL we're in full satire mode now.

 

[Bobby]

.

 

[Joeytj]

Sure, but "a space wizard did it' was the explanation for most of the originals too. People are just coming down to "Well that's what the space wizard did then, so how can it possibly do more now?"

It's people thinking there are hard, rigid rules of what the force can and cannot do, when it is just space magic that doesn't have any. And yeah, that's because the writers make it that way, but also the fact that it's diegetically built up that way by the characters who understand the force.

And it's really noticable that it only seems to ever apply to Rey. Take force lightning. It was never, ever established in the OT that Force Ghosts can use lightning. That was a skill only reserved for the evil jedi who want to shoot lightning out of their hands. And then, in TLJ, Yoda uses the never before seen trick of calling down lightning, not from his hands, but from the sky. Holy shit, how can he do this? Doesn't he know the OT established lightning could be shot from the hands? How can it come from the sky as well? TLJ just throwing out ALL the rules, right?

This is the same gist. Yeah, it's new. So what?

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Yeah, that's also my biggest problem with the complaints against TLJ. People are arguing both that it's the same as Empire and at the same time, complaining that it does stuff that is apparently too radical.

Which is ridiculous, considering everything else that has happened in the old and new EU and the fact that because something wasn't shown before, it doesn't mean it can't be shown now. It's a complete lack of imagination from fanboys.

 

[El Bombastico]

Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

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BECOMING like Lost?

Star Wars was always like Lost. Lucas NEVER had anything idea what the next movie would be like while he was writing the current one. Even RotS, which by Lucas' own admission was the easiest one to write out, went through a ton of revisions and plot changes before it came out.

Well, Lucas did outline a 9 episode arc from the beginning.

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ROFLMFAO no he didn't.

Lucas never had any of this planned out.

 

[SELIG]

Great stuff Bobby. I really enjoyed listening to that this weekend.

TFA soundtrack did need a couple takes for me to really catch up to what it was doing but now its many great new themes are etched into my brain in the same way the OT and PT music is. R1 for whatever reason was instantaneous attachment. Michael Giacchino really knocked it out of the park.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

In a 2008 interview in Total Film, Lucas said, "The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married."

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Man that is just fucking stupid, George. And the biggest retcon one could retcon

 

[Visanideth]

lol no he didn't

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Even if he did, people probably locked those scripts and threw them in the ocean.

 

[El Bombastico]

Even if he did, people probably locked those scripts and threw them in the ocean.

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Then they threw away the wrong scripts considering how much better the initial drafts of TPM and RotS were.

 

[Visanideth]

BECOMING like Lost?

Star Wars was always like Lost. Lucas NEVER had anything idea what the next movie would be like while he was writing the current one. Even RotS, which by Lucas' own admission was the easiest one to write out, went through a ton of revisions and plot changes before it came out.

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Execution is important. As Bobby points out, almost every author makes up the story as he goes (you think Martin had any idea of how the ASoIaF story would end in 2002?); what matters is how things gel together in the end, and in that regard SW has an excellent track record (even in the ST, despite all the criticism I have for it, and even in the PT).

 

[Joeytj]

Moving on: one of the things that soured the last leg of the movie (I really disliked Crait I guess) is how it approached Kylo.

Kylo has a FANTASTIC arc in TLJ until the Holdo maneuver scene. He's tormented (in a relatable and well acted way), he confronts Rey with good arguments and persuasive motives, he pulls a great stunt on Snoke, he has a good fight scene. After he becomes Supreme Leader, he kinds of reverts back to his tantrum-inclined, mustache twirling bad guy persona.

Worse yet is how the movie has both Luke and Leia completely give up on him. He's lost and beyond redemption which... kind of wastes everything that happened before. It's uncharacteristic for Luke to give up on family like that (he had a lot more reasons to give up on his father and he didn't), it's bizarre for Leia to do the same after their moment earlier in the movie, it's generally weird for the movie to take everything that was set up before and pretty much throw it away. It does make sense, as Kylo is clearly devastated by Rey's refusal, but it also strongly diminishes the character, robbing him of much of the tridimensionality the first half of the movie highlighted so well.

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It's his nephew, not his legendary father. He felt more ashamed for failing Leia as a brother. And his nephew is actively looking for power and that feeling of being special. Vader fell to the Dark Side. Kylo is forcing himself to it.

And it's not Luke's job anymore, nor is he capable of it, to redeem Kylo Ren. It's Rey's and the new generation of heroes.

That's why Luke wasn't in TFA, said Michael Arndt, the original screenwriter. Everytime they wrote him in a scene with the other characters, he completely took over the movie. So in order for the story to not be Luke's adventures 2.0, the story has to exclude him. Not an easy task, I agree.

It's why Lucas didn't want to make sequel Star Wars movies, like he said in 2008. He lacked the creativity to come up with something more for Luke or a new generation, and at the same time he really disliked what happened to Luke in the old EU for that same reason.

The best he could come up with, was that he became a hermit and trained a woman Jedi, which is what the ST is working with.

And I disagree with you about what happens with Kylo Ren. I also can't think of a creative way forward for his character in Episode 9, but I'm pretty sure I would've hated him even more if they went the same-old redeeming route. I loved the moment Rey rejects Ren's offer and Ren just goes beserk, again, like he did in TFA. It makes his character flawed, interesting and consistent too.

Modern storytelling it turning away from the tired "problem solved at the end of the episode" trope. Life is a series of ups and downs and the heroes sometimes grow up to fail the world after saving it. It's up to the new generations to continue slogging through the world and fix it.

But I agree too that it sets up a challenge for Episode 9. So now what? Pretty interesting.

 

[Joeytj]

Funny, I was thinking that Star Wars was becoming like Lost.....loose plot threads never resolved and a story that never really goes anywhere. AND....seems to be made up as they go..without any real trilogy plot outline from the beginning. What a mess.

Click to shrink...

Just like the Original Trilogy then.

Have you read Lucas' original draft of Star Wars? It's so different that they turned it into its own comic book and universe. Anakin and Darth Vader were two different people by the time they started writing Empire Strikes Back, Leia wasn't Luke's sister until they started writing ROTJ and the Emperor wasn't even going to make a fully fledged appearance until Episode 7.

Star Wars isn't planned out any differently than other movie sagas. That it all comes out cohesively and believable at the end, is what makes it so good.