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shtolky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
640
Honestly, it's clear that the plan for Rey's heritage changed between the two movies. There's a boatload of cues in TFA that hint at some sort of rebel-related origin for Rey (she has a bloody rebel pilot straw doll).

It's quite likely JJ planned to explore that in TLJ, then the movie changed hands and Johnson felt that plotline wasn't interesting/necessary, and it was scrapped to make room for other things. Now it's way too late to go and explore it again because honestly there's so much stuff that needs to happen in the present that there's really no room for the past.


You really think Rey's parents plotline wasn't interesting to Johnson? If anything, that issue is given an enormous amount of respect and time in the movie. Just because her parents ended up as nobody doesn't mean he didn't think the plot line was not interesting. The whole movie deals with Rey and her identity and her place in the galaxy, so obviously the issue of her parents and her place in the story was central to the movie.


And as far as JJ's thoughts on the matter, the scene between Maz and Rey further hammers the point home that she came from nothing. I'll also post this interview from 2015:

For me when I heard Obi-Wan say that the Force surrounds us and binds us all together, there was no judgement about who you were. This was something that we could all access. Being strong with the Force didn't mean something scientific, it meant something spiritual. It meant someone who could believe, someone who could reach down to the depths of your feelings and follow this primal energy that was flowing through all of us. I mean, that's what was said in that first film! And there I am sitting in the theater at almost 11 years old and that was a powerful notion. And I think this is what your point was, we would like to believe that when shit gets serious, that you could harness that Force I was told surrounds not just some of us but every living thing. And so, I really feel like the assumption that any character needs to have inherited a certain number of midi-chlorians or needs to be part of a bloodline. It's not that I don't believe that as part of the canon, I'm just saying that at 11 years old, that wasn't where my heart was. And so I respect and adhere to the canon but I also say that the Force has always seemed to me to be more inclusive and stronger than that.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
RO started from lower box office numbers - as a spin-off with no-names is expected to - yet had higher audience retention.

Moreover, TLJ is estimated to have earned less on 01.01.18 than RO on 01.01.17 OR 02.01.17, in the same number of days.
you can compare numbers all day long but you're sitting here trying to claim this movie is some kind of financial disaster when it's about to crack the top 20 grossing films of all fuckin' time
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,321
As opposed to Maz, a nobody made up to fill in a hole in the script?
Maz expands the universe, it makes more sense for someone from some shady area of the universe to have come across a lightsaber than Leia, someone who's incredibly steeped in politics post ROTJ. You're basically trying to make the film smaller scale for the sake of fanfiction. The audience would have just as many questions about where Leia got the lightsaber. Not to mention, why would Leia hand her the lightsaber, Rey finding it a random back room was purely the result of it unexpectedly calling out to her. It's a quite literal call to action that's reinforced by Maz. This is the first overt indication that Rey is force sensitive. And it would be incredibly out of place post battle sequence. The entire reason said battle ends in the first place btw is because they capture Rey, so at what point during a battle would the FO back or and/or Leia stop to talk to Rey.
 
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Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
I don't want to quote too many responses, but to the argument that Star Wars is supposed to always "feel alien" and not like Earth, is another of the nostalgia-warped ideas from too many fans, made worse by the prequels.

There are crazy moments in Star Wars, that's for sure, but the Original Trilogy was pretty grounded in 70s Earth aesthetics, from the haircuts to its use of 20th century uniforms for both Rebels and Imperials. Not to mention the way everybody talked, like American teenagers and young adults of the age, combined with Flash Gordon campy dialogue for the "serious" parts. It made the movie "feel real", despite its alien story.

Some of the best Star Wars settings are a combination of real-world aspects mixed-up with something else that normally doesn't belong there, in order to create an "alien feeling".

Heck, the fact that they use real world sets and locations is a point of pride for every Star Wars movie.
 

PhaZe 5

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,446
how mad are yall gonna be when Han, Leia, and Luke are force ghosts at the end of IX staring happily at redeemed Ben and Rey?

Han is a force ghosts because reasons
 

janusff

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,132
Austin, TX
Still with the doom and gloom with TLJ? TLJ is the second fastest film(behind TFA) to reach 500 million domestically ever. It's already the second highest grossing star wars film ever. And in just two weeks it became the highest grossing picture of 2017. What's the problem?
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
Mos Eisley is just a smaller city in Tunesia or Morocco. Canto Bight is Monacco, both of them "feel like Earth", you're being dishonest.

Right? If you want to be reductive and say that "Canto Bight is just a Casino" then you can also say "Tatooine is just Tunesia" "Dagobah is just a swamp" "Hoth is just Norway" etc, etc, etc.

I'm not.

Which feels more fantastic/alien, Mos Eisley or Dex's diner?

Nuance is a thing.

I mean. If you're from Tunesia or Morocco, then Dex's diner.

Just because it feels more fantastic/alien based on your upbringing, doesn't make it universally so.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
you can compare numbers all day long but you're sitting here trying to claim this movie is some kind of financial disaster when it's about to crack the top 20 grossing films of all fuckin' time

You can check what I'm actually claiming in my posts, the hyperbole is all you.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
The aesthetic of Star Wars has never been "space-age." It's always been lived-in. That's what people like about Star Wars, that's what drew people to Star Wars.

In fact, Canto Bite's aesthetic fits in much better with what we consider to be a "space age" aesthetic than nearly anything in the OT:

Actually I think Canto Bight is most clearly going for a Casablanca/French Riviera in Space vibe, specifically evoking the famous tracking shot from "Wings" a romantic wartime drama from 1927:

I love the feel and Williams' music is especially great here; he even interpolates a scale from "Brazil"! There's also a cute Brazil the movie reference with Finn and Rose's parking violation being a "27B Stroke 6", the famous form that Sam Lowry is bedeviled by.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Still with the doom and gloom with TLJ? TLJ is the second fastest film(behind TFA) to reach 500 million domestically ever. It's already the second highest grossing star wars film ever. And in just two weeks it became the highest grossing picture of 2017. What's the problem?
a shockingly high number of people seem to want this film to fail and I have no idea why outside of dumbshit reasons like "they did Luke Skywalker dirty" (which they absolutely didn't)
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
Actually I think Canto Bight is most clearly going for a Casablanca/French Riviera in Space vibe, specifically evoking the famous tracking shot from "Wings" a romantic wartime drama from 1927:

I love the feel and Williams' music is especially great here; he even interpolates a scale from "Brazil"! There's also a cute Brazil the movie reference with Finn and Rose's parking violation being a "27B Stroke 6", the famous form that Sam Lowry is bedeviled by.


Oh, I definitely agree. It doesn't quite hit traditional "space age" aesthetics, but I was just pointing out that it actually hews closer to them than most locations in the OT.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,143
Still with the doom and gloom with TLJ? TLJ is the second fastest film(behind TFA) to reach 500 million domestically ever. It's already the second highest grossing star wars film ever. And in just two weeks it became the highest grossing picture of 2017. What's the problem?
I think people were just hoping it'd compete with TFA numbers, but it's not going to.
 

Darcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
Except you just agreed that nothing we've discussed violates the Sacred Rules of Canon, right? So you're complaining about POTENTIAL violations in the future? Is this Nerd Minority Report?

No, Rey path to Jedi Knighthood conveniently disregard Canon. What I was bothered with is the convenient outright dismissal of the value of Canon when it suits some people arguments. And your message just show this condescension, I am not a nerd. I am not a big SW, I just don't like the overall dishonesty around this subject of "continuity". It is part of the experience they are putting forward. You not caring does not mean it is meaningless.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,706
I don't want to quote too many responses, but to the argument that Star Wars is supposed to always "feel alien" and not like Earth, is another of the nostalgia-warped ideas from too many fans, made worse by the prequels.

There are crazy moments in Star Wars, that's for sure, but the Original Trilogy was pretty grounded in 70s Earth aesthetics, from the haircuts to its use of 20th century uniforms for both Rebels and Imperials. Not to mention the way everybody talked, like American teenagers and young adults of the age, combined with Flash Gordon campy dialogue for the "serious" parts. It made the movie "feel real", despite its alien story.

Some of the best Star Wars settings are a combination of real-world aspects mixed-up with something else that normally doesn't belong there, in order to create an "alien feeling".

Heck, the fact that they use real world sets and locations is a point of pride for every Star Wars movie.
There are very few things that are actually, truly alien in SW. Chalmun's Cantina always stuck out in my mind for being just a bad guy bar with people wearing rubber suits. For such a building to even get customers, it has to assume that all aliens drink a certain type of drink (not accounting for what should be vastly different digestive systems), listening to music (not accounting for different sensory developments), all with similarly humanoid body types so they can sit in chairs like normal.

And that was Luke's first step beyond the safety of his home, narratively speaking, so this is supposed to be a microcosm of the life in SW, and it's framed in a highly human understanding of life.
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
The bit about the chosen one IS fanfiction. And all the things you cite about attuning to a crystal is about attuning to a FRESH crystal. Don't patronize me about Star Wars lore if you can't get it right.




Haha ouch.

Did I say chosen one? Straw man much?
No, I said the Crystal choose her, like every Crystal chooses a Jedi. The question has always been why the crystal would choose her after being with 2 generations of Sky walkers. If it called to her, showed her it's history, and then will allow her to reforge a saber around it then why? I get what your saying about attuning to a fresh crystal, but that's not relevant. The Crystal has already chosen her at this point.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
As opposed to Maz, a nobody made up to fill in a hole in the script? It's her brother's weapon, which was her father's before her, and the movie has Maz pass over the saber to Rey in an awkward why-does-she-have-that and who-the-fuck-is-she moment that would have better served the development of both Rey and Leia's characters, and establish a better relationship than the "Yeah go find my brother, girl I don't know.", and the plot as a whole if it was Leia who had it and Maz was removed.

Awww, I like your posts but I love Maz. She's earthy and funny and is one of the few SW characters to flirt and hint at having a libido "where is my boyfriend?! I like that Wookie". She's an adorable tiny orange Space Aunty/Granny, complete with bifocals and chanclas and chunky jewelry, except she ALSO runs a pirate watering hole and is one of Han's best friends, how is she not an original/interesting character?

Also Lupita killed it.
 

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
That was a different argument. I am of the opinion that the difference from fanfiction should not be considered meaningful as the only actual difference we're talking about here is difference of publication.

But this guy is arguing that fanfiction has a morality element to it. Which is just baffling to me. I've heard plenty of people think fanfiction sucks and defend the sanctity of canon it isn't anymore more than a legal footnote, but I've never heard of someone saying it has a moral dimension.


You're misunderstanding what canon means then. It does not mean "consistent with existing work". It means "Recognized by Disney as the official storyline." They could break literally every established rule, mischaracterize all they want say have lightsabers operate differently, whatever, but would remain canon because all canon is is the liscense holder saying "Yeah, this is the canon"

So this isn't dishonest marketing, it's just you not liking them breaking the rules.

Oh, I get, it's still you're affirmation that canon doesn't equal "better".

I'll add my thoughts a bit to the debate about if fans have a right to make their own canon:

I always try to respect the official canon a bit more because it feels like it doesn't matter if anybody can just invent their own alternate universe of any franchise. If I'm not satisfied with how the canon is progressing, I would just prefer to make up my own franchise and move on from the canon that might've left me disappointed. I don't have a need to appropriate the work of others and mold it to my liking just because I want the canon to go in a specific way. As much as I would love Star Trek to be a certain way right now, the owners of that intellectual property (if don't believe in their right to 'own it', well that's a different debate) have made it clear what's happening in that universe right now, so, whatever. There are better sci-fi franchises right now, and I'll keep bitching about Star Trek until something lands where I want it to (And I like Discovery so far!

But, that's just me.

I'm satisfied overall with where Star Wars is heading and I'll respect the Story Group's decisions I'm not in agreement with because I really don't think I can do any better lol.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
Did I say chosen one? Straw man much?
No, I said the Crystal choose her, like every Crystal chooses a Jedi. The question has always been why the crystal would choose her after being with 2 generations of Sky walkers. If it called to her, showed her it's history, and then will allow her to reforge a saber around it then why? I get what your saying about attuning to a fresh crystal, but that's not relevant. The Crystal has already chosen her at this point.

A. The crystal had never been in the hands of a chosen one.

Fanfiction. Also, before you come at me with shit like "strawman", know what it means. And remember your own arguments for more than two posts.

None of what you're saying was in the movie, or the EU, nothing we have says that the "Crystal Called to her". Fanfiction unless you have an actual source.
 

Mockerre

Story Director
Verified
Oct 30, 2017
630
you're right, I put words in your mouth. your original argument doesn't make any kind of cogent sense so I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt by building a slightly less stupid one for you

Insulting the person, not arguing the points, classy. I hoped this forum would have some level of civil discourse.
 

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
Insulting the person, not arguing the points, classy. I hoped this forum would have some level of civil discourse.
I didn't say you were stupid, I said your argument was stupid. Because it is. Somehow you're trying to suggest that the bad RT audience score is justified, which still doesn't make sense given the incredible financial success of the film and the legs that it has, even relative to other movies in the same franchise. I don't think you actually know what you are trying to argue, I think you're just grasping at straws attempting to make the situation look worse than it is.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
No, Rey path to Jedi Knighthood conveniently disregard Canon. What I was bothered with is the convenient outright dismissal of the value of Canon when it suits some people arguments. And your message just show this condescension, I am not a nerd. I am not a big SW, I just don't like the overall dishonesty around this subject of "continuity". It is part of the experience they are putting forward. You not caring does not mean it is meaningless.
Okay, I'm sorry if you felt I was being condescending, but honestly the idea that you have to go through X, then Y, then Z step on a "path to Jedi Knighthood" is not something I've seen as firmly established anywhere in SW, and I am a big fan of the franchise and have read plenty of books etc. Although I hate the prequels and apparently so does Luke, so if your evidence is from the According to Hoyle Rules of the Jedi Temple from AOTC or something, TLJ makes it pretty clear that being a Jedi isn't dependent on checking those boxes.

Or is your point that her story DOESN'T violate canon, you just think that the films shouldn't go out of their way to violate the stated rules of the fictional setting? Cause if so I actually agree with you.
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
I didn't say you were stupid, I said your argument was stupid. Because it is. Somehow you're trying to suggest that the bad RT audience score is justified, which still doesn't make sense given the incredible financial success of the film and the legs that it has, even relative to other movies in the same franchise. I don't think you actually know what you are trying to argue, I think you're just grasping at straws attempting to make the situation look worse than it is.

Also doesn't make fucking sense given that we KNOW that the RT audience score was sunk by alt-righters, which means there's absolutely no world in which it's justified.
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
Fanfiction. Also, before you come at me with shit like "strawman", know what it means. And remember your own arguments for more than two posts.

None of what you're saying was in the movie, or the EU, nothing we have says that the "Crystal Called to her". Fanfiction unless you have an actual source.

So the metal called to her? The electronics?
Oh the force called to her right? And what thing does the force normally use when constructing a light saber? Please explain.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
Have you not seen the pages upon pages of people spinning the "I don't believe it" narrative?
lol there are sooo many breakdowns of that RT user score that make it incredibly obvious that it was spammed/review bombed and most are not unique users. There are like Reddit/4Chan threads apparently filled with gibbering assholes gleefully calling their mouth-breathing brethren to arms to sink the sacred calf of the hated SJWs aka this SW movie that a lot of people liked.

http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/12...t-jedi-and-its-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score
 

Inferno

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,554
Tampa, FL
We had some genuine #notallcriticism moments. lol

giphy.gif
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
on a completely different note, should I watch Rebels? y/n

If you can stomach it being a lot more "kiddy" then Clone Wars, yes. It has some really high highs, but many episodes are absolutely dull. You can regard it as a followup to Clone Wars, though, it continues all dangling plot threads.
 

Darcy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
You're misunderstanding what canon means then. It does not mean "consistent with existing work". It means "Recognized by Disney as the official storyline." They could break literally every established rule, mischaracterize all they want say have lightsabers operate differently, whatever, but would remain canon because all canon is is the liscense holder saying "Yeah, this is the canon"

So this isn't dishonest marketing, it's just you not liking them breaking the rules.

Recognized by Lucasfilm as the official storyline. The whole purpose of the rebooted Canon was coherence, this is why they decided to rebrand the messy EU as Legends. There is a Story Group dedicated in making sure that every piece of SW material does not contradict or nullify what has been established within the 2012 Canon, this is their explicit function. They sell Canon as the only valid source of lore in the Star Wars Universe. And they explicitly call back to this canon to reinforce its value (i.e Saw Gerrera etc.). It is a commercial argument to say: "this spin-off book expand on this aspect of the movie and is as valid as the movie lore wise."

They can do whatever with it, but doing so they would break the continuity they advertised. It is a expanded Universe like the current MCU is, and it is marketed as such.
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
And you quoted me out of context. The chosen one I was referring to was Anakin SMH. You either didn't read or your being consistently intellectually dishonest.
 

Alice

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,867
And you quoted me out of context. The chosen one I was referring to was Anakin SMH. You either didn't read or your being consistently intellectually dishonest.

Maybe you should phrase your arguments better. You posted bullet points, I quoted bullet points in the same order as your bullet points. There was nothing out of context.


I "hate" the movie and I'm not an alt-right supporter, RT said the RT audience score was legit, but you know better, right ?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcai...audience-score-is-100-authentic/#7a76cb094231

Inferno: Here we go lol
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
So the metal called to her? The electronics?
Oh the force called to her right? And what thing does the force normally use when constructing a light saber? Please explain.
Who says the lightsaber was calling to her? Maybe she's being drawn to it, given her awakening to the Force and the fact that it's clearly a mystical object with a long history of being used by powerful Jedi. Again, what lightsaber rule is this violating? Is there a law about "only calls to you, but also people related to you?"
 

Solo

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
15,747
TLJ is already #7 all-time domestically and #22 all-time worldwide after 18 days of release. And it's already #2 both DOM and WW in the franchise.

It is not, in any way, shape, or form anything but a hugely successful movie.
 

MollyMillions

Member
Nov 19, 2017
215
on a completely different note, should I watch Rebels? y/n
Eh. It's okay. It's a step down from the Clone Wars show in terms of budget and scope and many of the characters are grating Saturday Morning Cartoons, which is basically what the show is for its first couple of seasons. The last couple get slightly better but at no point does it live up to the awesome potential of a show about the Fucking Rebel Alliance. It's set in the OT though and those aesthetics count for a lot, and it doesn't horribly fuck anything up, other than the two Jedi characters feel wildly out of place in a galaxy where Luke was the only Hope.

You're not missing anything important by skipping it.

Oh, if you looove Thrawn from the old EU, they introduce him as the main villain in the 4th and final season and he's so good that you wonder why he wasn't in it from the start. Instead we get some terribly goofy evil jedi that go nowhere and use their lightsabers as SPINNING HELICOPTER BLADES TO MAKE THEMSELVES FLY I SHIT YOU NOT
 

Jessmo24

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
753
As opposed to Maz, a nobody made up to fill in a hole in the script? It's her brother's weapon, which was her father's before her, and the movie has Maz pass over the saber to Rey in an awkward why-does-she-have-that and who-the-fuck-is-she moment that would have better served the development of both Rey and Leia's characters, and establish a better relationship than the "Yeah go find my brother, girl I don't know.", and the plot as a whole if it was Leia who had it and Maz was removed.

This..