Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

[Visanideth]

I'm starting to think that there's 3 main opinions regarding Luke's astral stunt:

A) fans who wanted him to do even more incredible things and go "super sayan" as some seem to suggest

B) fans who are happy with what we got in the movie

C) fans who feel the entire thing was too anime and over the top for Star Wars and would have preferred Luke's intervention to be more grounded and centered on dialogue and interaction with Kylo.

The weird thing is that 99% of the people I spoke too in real life belong to C. Only on Era I'm hearing people claim that fans who are dissatisfied with Luke's apparention wanted him to go "super sayan"; outside of here him going super sayan is exactly what is wrong in that sequence.

 

[shtolky]

Agreed, I mean this is a guy who confronts his father and sees some good in him. So he seeks him out to bring him back to the light. Now 30 years later any ounce of compassion went out the window when his nephew who may show small sparks of dark "sidedness" decides murdering him is the correct course of action. Nothing makes sense in this film.

It's visually stunning and the sound design was awesome. Even the acting was good. But the story was just flawed.

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This has been stated dozens of times in these threads. With Vader, he literally says he feels the good in him, the conflict. Luke mentions this over and over in ROTJ. With regard to Kylo, he literally states he sensed darkness worse than he's ever seen, nothing but darkness, that Snoke had already turned him. There was no conflict or good in Ben according to Luke, you can even hear what Luke hears, people getting cut down and killed. After all Luke has been through for his nephew to destroy everything he's worked for he STILL felt shame and regret for thinking of killing Ben. That's compassion. Ben didn't show "small sparks of dark sidedness. The movie is unbelievably clear about this that he showed the ultimate darkness never before seen. Lastly, he didn't decide to murder Ben, why do people keep saying this as if they watched a different movie.

 

[excelsiorlef]

C) fans who feel the entire thing was too anime and over the top for Star Wars and would have preferred Luke's intervention to be more grounded and centered on dialogue and interaction with Kylo.

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But it was

 

[CHC]

Anyone else actually kind of feel bad for Finn at this point? I mean holy hell, he has to be one of the most cockblocked characters in all of modern cinema at this point. Not for lack of trying mind you, but he has not managed to do anything important at all. He has to be the one to save the day in part three, for real.

Like just in this movie alone:

• Fails to escape the rebel ship without getting caught
• Fails to park his shuttle in the right spot, gets arrested
• Fails to shut down the tracking computer
• Kills his nemesis who was literally about to die in the ship's explosion minutes later
• Fails to stop the battering ram, instead getting cockblocked from his blaze of glory moment

I mean, shit dude.... I'm sorry. You're trying, I know.

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

You make it sound like he was actually going to do it... the whole point is that he had a singular moment of weakness... it was a second the time it took to push that button... He then immediately was going to turn it off when Ben sprung at attacked.

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This point is going to be repeated again and again. We've seen Jedi Masters fail before, it's like Luke isn't even allowed to falter, not once.
He brought back Vader, there's no way he can be tempted again!
"#NotmyLuke"

 

[excelsiorlef]

This point is going to be repeated again and again. We've seen Jedi Masters fail before, it's like Luke isn't even allowed to falter, not once.
He brought back Vader, there's no way he can be tempted again!
"#NotmyLuke"

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But remember Rey is too perfect

 

[djkimothy]

Your getting really personal about this. I would appreciate you stay on topic thanks. Again it's fine you dislike the movie but to both pretend your Objective about this but also make implications that the people who disagree with you're opinions are immature constantly is really hurting whatever point your trying to make.

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I told you my points but you just hand wave it in a "my opinion is better than yours" manner. Just because my opinion of this film is not aligned with yours you take it personally like i killed your dog. The film sucks, i'm not going to go over,my points because everyone else is saying the same thing and i have already presented my arguments. Shit, even this previous writer from Star Trek/Babylon 5 was even disappointed... But of course, live in your bubble.

Again. You're*

 

[Contramann]

Anyone else actually kind of feel bad for Finn at this point? I mean holy hell, he has to be one of the most cockblocked characters in all of modern cinema at this point. Not for lack of trying mind you, but he has not managed to do anything important at all. He has to be the one to save the day in part three, for real.

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Yeah I'm going they give Finn more moments to actually be heroic in the 3rd. Honestly I am just hoping he gets a moment to try and use then master a Lightsaber but eh I'll honestly just the opportunity to have a great moment centered around him would be great too.

 

[Deleted member 11995]

To me yes. It's not the action of a hero to me, much less the hero Luke Skywalker we know.

If Rey had done similar I doubt she'd have so many fans here. She wouldn't do something so creepy though because she's the hero of this story.

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Well I mean, even a hero can suffer from fear, doubt, indecision or mental weakness. In fact, I'd say things like that are essential to the character of a good hero. They're flaws. Real human flaws. Without them a hero is nothing more than a robot.

Luke stares Ben dead in his eye (more or less) and apologises. Admits that he failed him. That's a real human strength, the ability to admit your mistake. It further deepens his characterisation in the story.

And Rey is young. The scene we're describing, by definition, is the kind of scenario a person will only face when they're older. When they're looking at the next generation and thinking, "Will they just repeat our mistakes?". She's never been tested in such a way, yet. Much like Luke, back in the OT.

 

[djkimothy]

You make it sound like he was actually going to do it... the whole point is that he had a singular moment of weakness... it was a second the time it took to push that button... He then immediately was going to turn it off when Ben sprung at attacked.

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It was the very fact that he considered it which was out of character. He made it all the way to his hut! Luke just didn't think it through enough. He was written as a one dimensional character.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'd just like to point out that looking to Star Trek/Babylon 5 writer to talk about Star Wars is kinda pointless in as much as Trek and Baby 5 might as well not be in the same genre as Star Wars.

Like going look even this guy who wrote for Star Trek and Babylon 5 didn't like it... means nothing, there's no extra credibility there.

 

[Yerffej]

I'm starting to think that there's 3 main opinions regarding Luke's astral stunt:

A) fans who wanted him to do even more incredible things and go "super sayan" as some seem to suggest

B) fans who are happy with what we got in the movie

C) fans who feel the entire thing was too anime and over the top for Star Wars and would have preferred Luke's intervention to be more grounded and centered on dialogue and interaction with Kylo.

The weird thing is that 99% of the people I spoke too in real life belong to C. Only on Era I'm hearing people claim that fans who are dissatisfied with Luke's apparention wanted him to go "super sayan"; outside of here him going super sayan is exactly what is wrong in that sequence.

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How is that any more anime than shooting lightning out of your hands? Or jumping up and down impossible heights? People wanted to see Luke using advanced Jedi moves after all this time. It was something I hadn't seen before, but I don't know if the EU covered shit like that. I was thoroughly entertained. It didn't feel out of place at all to a casual fan like me.

 

[--R]

Luke is God. He can't be wrong or make mistakes.

 

[djkimothy]

I'd just like to point out that looking to Star Trek/Babylon 5 writer to talk about Star Wars is kinda pointless in as much as Trek and Baby 5 might as well not be in the same genre as Star Wars.

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Considering he's a writer he knows how to structure plots and character arcs. You're saying, as a drug chemist I am in no position to question food sciences as apparently they're not overlapping fields. WTF?

Luke is God. He can't be wrong or make mistakes.

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But can he create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

It was the very fact that he considered it which was out of character. He made it all the way to his hut! Luke just didn't think it through enough. He was written as a one dimensional character.

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It being an out of character moment isn't necessarily a bad thing though, nor is he one dimensional by any stretch.

Luke is God. He can't be wrong or make mistakes.

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Lol, you'd think right?

 

[Veelk]

That was just to illustrate why people talk about lack of characterization.

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You're not talking to "people". You're talking to me. You can't use others arguments for why they didn't buy Anakin's fall as some kind of proof of doublestandard to my argument for how it worked for me.

I can go on like this for a long while. And I am not bitching about being faithful to some canon or about technical plotholes (there's many, but they don't really bother me in these types of movies). I'm having issue with the plotting, the meandering story, the rehashed character stuff, the broken character arcs, implausible characterization (Luke, Hux) or weak characterization, lack of stakes, lack of real progression of the story (its a rethread, only Kylo is now the big boss), lack of thought put into the structure, resulting in a 4-act story in a 3-act movie and subversivness for subversiveness sake.

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I asked you before what it is your worked on, since you wanted to uses your job as a screenwriter (or writer of whatever, you didn't specify) as a way of trying to establish your authority on the matter of storytelling.

Everything you've ever said on the matter of storytelling, atleast in regards to TLJ, really makes me doubt I'd like anything you've written.

Everyone can like or dislike this movie however they please, but saying there are no problems with it is disingenuous.

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Again, I never said anything like that. If you wnat to address those arguments, do so to the people who are making them.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Considering he's a writer he knows how to structure plots and character arcs. You're saying, as a drug chemist I am in no position to question food sciences as apparently they're not overlapping fields. WTF?

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This is basically an appeal to authority... look a writer agrees with me.... so?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Scott_Zicree

And like it's not like he's some prolific guy with an impressive body of work... he wrote like 3 episodes total of Trek and Baby 5 and most of his work his kid's cartoons.

Calling him a Baby 5 and Trek writer is being generous and is more like false advertising.

 

[Solo]

Like most trilogies, this third OT is a let down.

 

[Mona]

would have preferred Luke's intervention to be more grounded and centered on dialogue and interaction with Kylo..

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This is me

 

[djkimothy]

That was just to illustrate why people talk about lack of characterization.



No, I am not 'just curious', if I gave you that impression, I'm sorry. What I am saying is that this character arc doesn't work because of the lack of work put into it. Any character arc would work. Grey Jedi Luke would work. Dark Side Luke would work. Lofty arbiter balance Luke would work. You would just have to put it in the movie. And it's not there.

This is the problem with the ST, they don't take time to build up anything, everything just happens because of lazy directing and writing. Everything is conveniently close to each other (you can see the 'parabolic laser' from starkiller from Takodana...), everyone knows everything, everyone achieves everything without effort; Poe is the best pilot, Ray knows how to fight, fly, fix, speak wookie and droid, shoot, mind trick and swim; Finn knows every starship and starbase plan by memory. There is no backstory to anything, no texture to anything, the last episode takes place literally in the void of space. Everything seems smaller, from the Resistance and FO to the entire Galaxy. A Republic of hundreds of thousands species is reduced to 4 planets. Instead of going in a new and exciting direction, each new episode resets the status quo (every character, save Poe, even goes through the same 'arc' they had in TFA) and it'll happen again with Ep IX, because they've written themselves into a corner, and the stakes have never been lower.

I can go on like this for a long while. And I am not bitching about being faithful to some canon or about technical plotholes (there's many, but they don't really bother me in these types of movies). I'm having issue with the plotting, the meandering story, the rehashed character stuff, the broken character arcs, implausible characterization (Luke, Hux) or weak characterization, lack of stakes, lack of real progression of the story (its a rethread, only Kylo is now the big boss), lack of thought put into the structure, resulting in a 4-act story in a 3-act movie and subversivness for subversiveness sake.

Everyone can like or dislike this movie however they please, but saying there are no problems with it is disingenuous.



I would have liked to know who the knights were or who Snoke was, but that is not essential. What is essential is learning about the Luke and Kylo dynamic and why the things are the way they are. In the movie Rey asks him why he hated his father and he says he didn't, but the past must die. Without explaining how he got to that point of thought makes him look like a lunatic; and he becomes a loony toon villain in the end.

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You think!?!?

 

[PhaZe 5]

Han is dead. Luke is dead. Leah won't be around. The Jedi Order has been dead for a long while. There's no Sith. The rebellion is a small group of strangers. Hell, the only real symbol of "the past" at this point is the Empire's fleet, or what is left of it. Rey isn't the past, she's a nobody that Kylo has no reason to give much of a shit about beyond the few times she tried to be nice to him. Wow, what motivation for him, a nice stranger who didn't want to join him. She must die! Yawn. His motivation as a villain was based entirely around revenge on his family, and they're all dead and gone now. The third movie is going to literally have to reboot his character into something else for his motivations to make any sense.

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Rian made a selfish film. I think it's a good one, but it's a film that seems to...not care all that much about what comes after or what came before. It's got an awkward ending that seems a bit too self indulgent--the idea that the resistance is literally down to a a dozen individuals is...honestly, it's shit, and it puts JJ in an awkward spot. Again, I think it's a good film, but I think it's also a very selfish film. It's not a film that sets itself up for a clean ending in the finale, and I think we're going to come back to the TLJ as something of ball and chain for JJ having had to deal with if IX turns out poorly.

 

[Meows]

The Last Jedi just made Luke an even better and more fleshed out character. He was already one of my favorites ever but the movie helped cement it.

 

[blue_phazon]

Has anyone else seen this incredible work?

Spoiler: Uh semi-NSFW?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Rian made a selfish film. I think it's a good one, but it's a film that seems to...not care all that much about what comes after or what came before. It's got an awkward ending that seems a bit too self indulgent--the idea that the resistance is literally down to a a dozen individuals is...honestly, it's shit, and it puts JJ in an awkward spot. Again, I think it's a good film, but I think it's also a very selfish film. It's not a film that sets itself up for a clean ending in the finale, and I think we're going to come back to the TLJ as something of ball and chain for JJ having had to deal with if IX turns out poorly.

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Rian literally left the film with the idea that the Resistance is about to get a whole lot fucking bigger... That's literally what that lost shot represents.

 

[--R]

But can he create a stone so heavy he can't lift it?

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He can only lift it with conversation and interaction with the rock. None of that "anime shit".

 

[Contramann]

I told you my points but you just hand wave it in a "my opinion is better than yours" manner. Just because my opinion of this film is not aligned with yours you take it personally like i killed your dog. The film sucks, i'm not going to go over,my points because everyone else is saying the same thing and i have already presented my arguments. Shit, even this previous writer from Star Trek/Babylon 5 was even disappointed... But of course, live in your bubble.

Again. You're*

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My opinions? I used movie clips to rebuke what your takes on your complaints were. My opinion doesn't come into play there. I've also illustrated moments in previous movies that commits problems just as bad as well, again not personal opinion. You chose to ignore them because I guess you couldn't counter them but wanted to be upset still.

So I think if I really had to evaluate the conversation the immature one is you both ignoring all of my counters and descending to remarks about grammar and maturity. Of course you can explain why the Star Wars physics problems are ignorable in previous movies but you ignored every opportunity to do so.

I think it's pretty apparent you have a chip on your shoulder because the movie didn't go your way. Instead of accepting that it's a movie that didn't work for you you're pretending that your opinion is the objective and mature take to have on the film. It's okay to feel the movie is bad, to pretend that makes you better is pretty sad.

Also the your typos are phone typing issues. I'm sorry that it bothered you so much that I am busy so I tried this out on my phone screen. Next time I'll make sure to just go straight home to post so you don't make a smug insinuation about my maturity.

 

[Meows]

Rian made a selfish film. I think it's a good one, but it's a film that seems to...not care all that much about what comes after or what came before. It's got an awkward ending that seems a bit too self indulgent--the idea that the resistance is literally down to a a dozen individuals is...honestly, it's shit, and it puts JJ in an awkward spot. Again, I think it's a good film, but I think it's also a very selfish film. It's not a film that sets itself up for a clean ending in the finale, and I think we're going to come back to the TLJ as something of ball and chain for JJ having had to deal with if IX turns out poorly.

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Eh. If anything, I feel like Rian gave JJ a ton of freedom to do with whatever he wants. Rian was kinda forced to resolve the mystery boxes JJ tossed around and couldn't really do any kind of timeskip thanks to the cliffhanger ending.

 

[CHC]

Also I'm probably imagining this but did the stable hand boy in the final shot use the Force to grab his broom? I could swear it shot into his hand....

 

[Deleted member 11039]

But the whole point is that Luke isn't the big hero everyone says he is. He's still human, and he made a mistake in his judgment. Even if he didn't go through with what he initially planned, it still had repercussions. It seemed clear to me, Luke is not supposed to be a pure hero, even if he is the preeminent Jedi at the time.

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I understand that guys. I understand that is what these writers have come up with for Luke. That is where they took the character and the point they were making with him.

What I'm saying is I think its kind of lousy. They couldn't think of anything to actually build on the hero from the OT (no small feat admittedly) so they tore him down. I'm not impressed.

Sneaking into your young nephew's room, reading his mind and pulling a saber on him (momentarily out of instinct) is awful. That's not a "hey everybody's human" slip up. That's egregious. It makes me sympathize with Kylo, which I don't think is the intent, but that's where I'm at.

Even after his redemption and big magic trick, Luke Skywalker is the creepy dude hovering over his nephew's bed with his saber out. Luke Skywalker is a huge reason the world in the new trilogy is as crummy as it is. Luke Skywalker sucks. :/

 

[Mona]

Has anyone else seen this incredible work?

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I posted that in the last thread and got a warning

You might want to hide it

 

[thecouncil]

luke brushing his shoulder off was kinda corny.

 

[--R]

Has anyone else seen this incredible work?

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MODS, STOP THIS MADNESS.

 

[Draper]

I like how everything was stated verbally regarding events and plans.

That way, I couldn't get lost.

 

[djkimothy]

Has anyone else seen this incredible work?

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I remember seeing that on my twitter feed before i saw the film. I was like... WTF? No one is dumb enough to put something like that in the movie.... I was half wrong i guess.

 

[Mockerre]

You're not talking to "people". You're talking to me. You can't use others arguments for why they didn't buy Anakin's fall as some kind of proof of doublestandard to my argument for how it worked for me.

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It's a general consensus among fans I was referring to. And also, it was a refferential point, don't get hang up on it. And thirdly, we are not talking in PMs, I may be replying to your post, but it's also a part of a larger discussion.

I asked you before what it is your worked on, since you wanted to uses your job as a screenwriter (or writer of whatever, you didn't specify) as a way of trying to establish your authority on the matter of storytelling.

Everything you've ever said on the matter of storytelling, atleast in regards to TLJ, really makes me doubt I'd like anything you've written.

Again, I never said anything like that. If you wnat to address those arguments, do so to the people who are making them.

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I've written for video games and movies. I've written several novels (and no, not self-published). I don't need to legitimize myself to you, but I will ask to be vetted by the mods, you think that will do?

And yeah, you might not like anything I've created, but that's neither here, nor there, is it?

 

[Oneiros]

I'm starting to think that there's 3 main opinions regarding Luke's astral stunt:

A) fans who wanted him to do even more incredible things and go "super sayan" as some seem to suggest

B) fans who are happy with what we got in the movie

C) fans who feel the entire thing was too anime and over the top for Star Wars and would have preferred Luke's intervention to be more grounded and centered on dialogue and interaction with Kylo.

The weird thing is that 99% of the people I spoke too in real life belong to C. Only on Era I'm hearing people claim that fans who are dissatisfied with Luke's apparention wanted him to go "super sayan"; outside of here him going super sayan is exactly what is wrong in that sequence.

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I think that sequence was pretty cool, even though I didn't care for Luke's portrayal in the movie.

 

[Deleted member 21339]

All I ask of J.J. is that he lets episode 9 breathe. I don't expect it to happen because he seems to have only one mode and that's faster, more intense. TFA felt like it was directed by someone with ADHD. Pls pls slow the movie down *a little* and give scenes the proper time to settle and breathe a bit. This is going to be the main thing I will miss about not having RJ around. Also his superior writing skills.

 

[MagicHobo]

Rian made a selfish film. I think it's a good one, but it's a film that seems to...not care all that much about what comes after or what came before. It's got an awkward ending that seems a bit too self indulgent--the idea that the resistance is literally down to a a dozen individuals is...honestly, it's shit, and it puts JJ in an awkward spot. Again, I think it's a good film, but I think it's also a very selfish film. It's not a film that sets itself up for a clean ending in the finale, and I think we're going to come back to the TLJ as something of ball and chain for JJ having had to deal with if IX turns out poorly.

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See I see it the other way around. JJ was both chained by the OT and made a selfish film, dangling vaguely defined threads that Rian was forced to resolve. Rian resolved them, and cleared the stage for JJ to come back and do whatever he wants with the characters he (JJ) created: Finn, Poe, Rey, Kylo.

Seriously, JJ is no longer beholden to the original Star Wars, he has been granted a canvas upon which to create whatever he wants. He can choose to restructure the Galaxy as he sees fit, to redefine the Jedi however he wants, and to resolve his own characters however he wants. The small Resistance can stay small or become a full fledged rebellion post time skip, the First Order can rule the Galaxy, or be a broken mess under Kylo. Rian also severed all expectation, which partially defined the direction of TFA. JJ has even more freedom than he did then.

 

[CHC]

No I'm not crazy, apparently:

 

[Puffy]

If the movie is supposedly good, would it need to be defended so much? I'm having BvS flashbacks. just saying

 

[Meows]

Why do people keep saying Ben was some young boy? Wasn't he in like his early to mid twenties lol?

 

[Mona]

I like how everything was stated verbally regarding events and plans.

That way, I couldn't get lost.

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Hey, it's not as bad as the end suicide squad when Rick flag practically looks at the audience and says "her weakness was her heart, with her heart gone now she is open for our attacks"

 

[Contramann]

If the movie is supposedly good, would it need to be defended so much? I'm having BvS flashbacks. just saying

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A drive-by post with a logical fallacy?

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

Has anyone else seen this incredible work?

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[djkimothy]

He can only lift it with conversation and interaction with the rock. None of that "anime shit".

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I never really felt that there were any anime shit in the film. Even the most "Jedi" parts of the film seemed within the realm of possibility and I gave a pass when Yoda went all Zeus. What is anime shit anyways?

 

[SurrenderDorothy]

If the movie is supposedly good, would it need to be defended so much? I'm having BvS flashbacks. just saying

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Lol, come on man..

No I'm not crazy, apparently:

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Yeah, soon as I saw it I knew. Shadow looked like a jedi holding a saber at the end too.

 

[Mona]

If the movie is supposedly good, would it need to be defended so much?

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Such is the curse of a divisive movie

 

[Sabercrusader]

Honestly I don't get the problems people are having with Luke and the force projection and all that. I thought it was all fine. Actually I really, really liked what they did with Luke's character. I kinda love having a cynical Luke Skywalker.

Actually besides the Leia scene in the beginning having her use the force, the casino world being forgettable (I can't remember the name), and the out of place humor, I don't see why people are disliking it so much. I enjoyed it.

I thought the Leia scene just didn't look right or felt right. If they wanted to knock her out of the equation for part of the movie there were other ways of doing it besides basically all but confirming her death before going "GOTCHA" with some bullshit out of nowhere. It's not the using the force bit, it's that it was basically a confirmed death before they break all sense of immersion by making her overcome ridiculous odds for absolutely no reason. There's no indication that she's ever used the force before, and suddenly she can use it to pull herself back into the ship after being blasted out into space. Fuck that. I understand she's a Skywalker and she should be able to use the force, but they never gave any indication that she knew how to whatsoever.

I also just kinda thought the casino world was boring.

The humor is starting to worry me. I'm beginning to get tired of it in Marvel films and I don't want it to bleed over into Star Wars as well. Some of the humor wasn't bad, like Finn and Rose's first meeting, but for the most part the humor could have been gone and it would've made for a better movie in my eyes.

 

[Tarot Deck]

Anyone else actually kind of feel bad for Finn at this point? I mean holy hell, he has to be one of the most cockblocked characters in all of modern cinema at this point. Not for lack of trying mind you, but he has not managed to do anything important at all. He has to be the one to save the day in part three, for real.

Like just in this movie alone:

• Fails to escape the rebel ship without getting caught
• Fails to park his shuttle in the right spot, gets arrested
• Fails to shut down the tracking computer
• Kills his nemesis who was literally about to die in the ship's explosion minutes later
• Fails to stop the battering ram, instead getting cockblocked from his blaze of glory moment

I mean, shit dude.... I'm sorry. You're trying, I know.

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I really didn't like TFA, but Finn was a redeeming part. He was an unique character in the SW saga, tons of charisma ,ended in a strong note and had a ton of potential.

All of that was lost. I have a hard time thinking why anyone would actually care about episode IX.

 

[--R]

I never really felt that there were any anime shit in the film. Even the most "Jedi" parts of the film seemed within the realm of possibility and I gave a pass when Yoda went all Zeus. What is anime shit anyways?

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Idk. Someone on the thread said the Luke VS Kylo was too anime.