You're perceiving the scene incorrectly since not only did TFA, but also TLJ tell you what he felt.
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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)
- Thread starter Bronx-Man
- Start date
Yeah but that poster said that TLJ went against the character progression in TFA because he felt like TFA established that he had fully gone over into the dark side. But that's not the case.
That's the opposite of what the film tells you with Kylo's reaction
As I said above, I begrudge no one their hate of the movie.
I do find it really tiresome that some of those people seem to need to discredit the idea that hating the movie is a minority opinion.
I do find it really tiresome that some of those people seem to need to discredit the idea that hating the movie is a minority opinion.
I did read your post it's just that your points are nonsensical?
You do realize that not all exit polling is political right? Again I am asking you about issues facing exit polling in general. Please answer the question. If you're not going to answer the question what are you doing arguing about CinemaScores methodology.
"Maybe you're new to this, but in an election there is an actual result and exist polling is an attempt to sample that result. A cinema score is an attempt to sample audience opinion. There isn't an actual election for which movie is the president of the universe."
:|
Maybe you don't understand, but exit polling for a film, beyond any other issues, could be even less accurate with just opening night. Given that these films have a whole PR arm attached to them over a... 2 month period let's say. This would be like conducting one poll when the election is announced and calling it a day. Not only can the public mood change, but narratives can shift, and classical conditioning can come into play.
I mean, hell, sampling only a couple hundred people on opening night would be like only sampling early voters. It's a pilot study more than anything.
While exit polling for an election compares itself against the election results, exit polling for a film compares itself, or is an an attempt to do so, against the actual reception of the audience. You simply can't say that because we can't sample the actual result, at say the end of opening week and beyond? That CinemaScores was accurate.
For someone who chastised me for goggle searching an article to make a quick point, you sure are dependent on it a whole lot. Maybe it's a good thing I gave it to you?
EDIT: Again I am not, nor did I ever say that CinemaScores is completely unreliable or 'fake news'. What I was saying is that you can't just cite CinemaScore on its own and call it a day. That's why I made the comment about 'throwing things out there with little context'.
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Kylo is shocked that killing Han didn't do anything for him. That's why he feels weakened. It's a ploy by Snoke to have him kill those he still feels attached to.
The Raddus is actually a HEAVY Cruise Ship. It has heavy shielding and armor. It was gutted inside that it only needed like 1200 personnel to crew. It should have by all means been a very SLOW ship which doesn't make the chase sequence make sense even more.
It's further explained in TLJ that killing Han made Kylo even more conflicted. But this is clear in TFA with the look he gives right after he does it.
"Oh shit this just made things much worse"
My favorite line reading is when he's talking about his animal instinct kicking in. He starts speaking faster and faster and you can almost feel his adrenaline kicking in when he tells Rey what really happen.
He is a pretty average to below actor. He is Luke Skywalker though, jumping back in pretty seamlessly.
Completely disagree with that reading after he didn't pull the trigger on Leia in TLJ. I read it as him being shocked and saddened that he was willing to do that, and in TLJ actively decided not to do the same thing again.
I don't think he's really trying to gravitate more towards the dark side, I think he just wants more power almost as a distraction from how upset and angry he is over his own decisions. In the final movie he's going to realize he can't run from those decisions anymore, and it'll break him.
No this question did not exist in WW2. Everyone in World War 2 understood that ships could ram other ships. As did the writers and audience of the previous Star Wars movies, hence the spaceship crashes and suicides we've seen in prior movies, which people have enjoyed.
We are not talking about the act of suicide piloting. We are talking about the use of a long existing technology as a surprise deus ex machina
I'm not sure how you got this form reading my posts, I even mentioned that no one would be complaining if Holdo had just rammed the Supremecy's bridge
Ah, then yes we are in agreement, why didn't they do this in the previous movies? I interpreted your questions as sarcasm. I am of the opinion this maneuver was not used in prior movies because it shouldn't have been possible. If it were possible, space combat would've changed the day the hyperdrive was invented. I'm not sure if you can provide another reason this was not used in the other movies
And I agree, the rebels do seem to have a harder time getting ships than the FO. This is an entirely separate problem I have with the new trilogy, as there's no satisfying reason that the rebellion is still an underdog after ROTJ, but 'dems the breaks. I don't think this has any bearing on the use of hyperdrive as a weapon, though, as every rebel fighter has a hyperdrive. It can't be that hard to build missles (of any size) with hyperdrives rather than ships. I don't buy that a cruiser size ship is necessary, maybe for something as big as Supremecy, but in such case you only need one. Bullets are much smaller than people, but if you aim one competently you will do a lot of damage
and yes, agreed about the codebreaker. I wasn't sure what that had to do with whether or not lighspeed attack is possible. If the codebreaker hadn't told the FO about the transports, Holdo could have jumped away
I disagree completely. His voice work being so completely amazing is a hallmark of how talented he actually is. Good VO is incredibly difficult to do.
This sort of sneering, seething wild mis interpretation of the themes and events (which are plainly spelled out to the viewer) makes me giggle.
I'm talking about as a feature actor. When Star Wars was dead, I spent my time watching him in weird straight to video movies.
My dad who saw Star Wars in 77 5 times said this when he saw it today:
"I'm disappointed in Luke Skywalker. I thought he'd be a stronger person."
....:'-(
"I'm disappointed in Luke Skywalker. I thought he'd be a stronger person."
....:'-(
The thing with the hyperspace crash maneuver is that it was always theoretically possible in this universe: in Star Wars, ships could always go into hyperspace, and it stands to reason that if there was an object in the way, it would crash right through it. The only reason they didn't ever do that maneuver in the old films is literally because the writers didn't write those scenarios.
Criticizing TLJ for finally depicting this always theoeretically possible maneuver isn't criticizing TLJ, it's actually criticizing the OT film writers for not accounting for it. Which is obviously absurd.
Now, it would be slightly different if this maneuver was featured and successfully pulled off in the prequels, because it would then raise the question "why was this never pulled off again in the OT if it worked so well?"
It's one of the issues I have with Rogue One: we see Scarif is protected by some sort of impenetrable blue shield that X-Wings can't pass through - why wasn't the Death Star surrounded with these things? On the other hand, I understand the need to have a new setpiece and visual in the Star Wars lexicon 7 or 8 films in, so it doesn't keep me awake at night.
Criticizing TLJ for finally depicting this always theoeretically possible maneuver isn't criticizing TLJ, it's actually criticizing the OT film writers for not accounting for it. Which is obviously absurd.
Now, it would be slightly different if this maneuver was featured and successfully pulled off in the prequels, because it would then raise the question "why was this never pulled off again in the OT if it worked so well?"
It's one of the issues I have with Rogue One: we see Scarif is protected by some sort of impenetrable blue shield that X-Wings can't pass through - why wasn't the Death Star surrounded with these things? On the other hand, I understand the need to have a new setpiece and visual in the Star Wars lexicon 7 or 8 films in, so it doesn't keep me awake at night.
Not sure if anybody cares but in the Visual Dictionary it explains that DJ is known to local authorities and arranges his own arrest for a petty crime so he can grab some sleep with assurances that he won't be pestered by the police. So I guess that makes it a little better that he wasn't actually arrested and frees himself. He was there of his own choosing and had an arrangement with the police. Movie should have made that more clear
Sure
He's really a meh actor though outside of voice work, this was the first time I thought "Mark Hamill is good" and it wasn't for voicework
The New Republic, after the Battle of Jakku, passed the Military Disarmament Act. Leia, seeing how the FO was growing on power, kidnapping children and turning them into soldiers, and all that stuff, asked the Senate to do something. They accused her of warmongering and she left the Senate. With that, she founded the Resistance, a clandestine movement to stop the First Order. They have barely some money, some rebel-age equipment and no allies. The only thing that they can do is get some equipment from the businesses that also sell their products to the FO, but not on the same magnitude as them.
Well then. I majored in sociology, doing my phD now. I do not work as a sociologist, but that methodology would not fly. It would be a good 'pilot study' that would provide a basis for creating a more sophisticated research tool (survey), but it could not be considered any credible evidence. 400 surveys across all age groups, both genders and classes is a really small sample. Just saying.
It's of course better than anecdotal evidence or self-selecting polls on the Internet. But it's also selective, as it asks the people who are they on opening night, week after week. So you might say it focuses on film enthusiasts.
The only credible metric measuring a movie's popularity (not 'critical acclaim') is and always will be ticket sales compared to ticket sales of similar productions.
I did not want to detract this thread, this is more me talking about the methodology than dissing TLJ.
It's not a lack of understanding. This is a series of movies where jedi are constantly "feeling" the good or conflict in one another. We are shown the most conflicted Jedi in the series, and none of the others can tell. It's a bit of a curve ball. We don't want Leia to immediately know Kylo didn't shoot at her, but we wonder why neither her nor Luke are privy to his inner struggle when we in the audience are repeatedly made aware. Cynical viewers are interpreting this as to solely serve as an audience fake-out (i.e. Luke told us Kylo was all dark, but you didn't listen!). Rey sees the good in him. Either way it's a bit confusing
I should clarify I enjoyed the Luke/Kylo/Rey stuff in this movie, and I think it was all well done. I understand why Luke needed to lose hope to end up where he was. I also, however, understand why some people see this as out of character for Luke, and I think the lynchpin is the fact that the audience knows Luke is wrong about Kylo.
An average to below average actor who put out a stellar acting performance in which was overwhelmingly praised by critics and fans alike
Hmm
Yeah and Forest Whitaker won an Oscar, doesn't mean he isn't a shitty actor
Everyone gets their one
Legit thanks, this helps. If it was in the movies anywhere I missed it. I understand why they wouldn't want to focus on anything like this after the prequels, but it's still jarring for fans who don't have time to keep up with EU
I guess that is an interesting conversation you can have with researchers and maybe sell them your methodology. Im just pointing out that paying people for their data is common and doesn't taint it in the way you think it does. When I was participating in market research I treated it as my weekend job and considered my answers carefully.
Cinemascore pays people to fill out a survey for a movie. It could be for Star Wars or some other film. There is nothing there telling people to vote a certain way. This is in stark contrast to free to join self selecting polls
Yeah, he was fantastic in this film.
I'm not saying anything controversial. There is a reason why he never broke out.
I saw it with my famalams yesterday. I wish I could say I went in blind, but unfortunately I already knew about Rey's parents and Luke dying :(
Overall I liked it a good deal more than TFA and thought it went in a promising direction. I still have some complaints though, which I'll go through before getting to what I liked:
Overall I liked it a good deal more than TFA and thought it went in a promising direction. I still have some complaints though, which I'll go through before getting to what I liked:
- I just can't care about Rey. As far as I'm concerned, she's a potato. A filling potato that serves its role, but doesn't have much interesting about it. The potato has no significant flaws, but it's nothing worth remembering either. Great if you're really hungry (as many people are for female heroes), or if you really like potatoes, but to me, it's just a bit too bland. Also Rey has that one facial expression she does constantly where she clenches her jaw real hard like she's trying to poop, and it's starting to annoy me.
- The story had a few too many contrivances that stretched my suspension of disbelief slightly too far. Why did purple hair wait so long before her light speed ramming? Why didn't she even give Po a hint that she had a plan other than "we're all gonna die lol"? Why was Leia so confused about how they were being tracked through hyperspace when she was wearing a galaxy-range tracker on her wrist? The light speed ramming in particular reminds me of time-turners from Harry Potter. It gives you an awesome moment, to be sure, but it's so absurdly powerful that it opens up too many questions about why people in-universe aren't exploiting it for everything.
- Rose preventing Finn's suicide attack was sweet, but it rang kinda hollow considering Leia had no beef with purple hair's suicide attack just 15 minutes ago. They don't have cruise control in the future or something? Also, the whole reason Finn was doing it was to protect the people he loved, and Rose very nearly suicided herself in the process.
- I feel like they kinda hit the reset button on Kylo's character arc.
- Despite his arc ultimately not making much progress, I think Kylo is still the most interesting character in the trilogy. His skype calls with Rey were great, and the throne scene must be my favorite of any since the originals.
- Luke was great. Han and Leia's characters hadn't changed much from how they were 30 years ago, but their actors had, and I really felt like their performances didn't cut it. Hamill, however, really sold the new Luke.
- I liked the large majority of the humor. Maybe I'm a filthy Marvel pleb, I don't know. But I thought it was fun.
- There were a lot of visually striking scenes. That initial bombing run, Snokes' throne room, the uh... spooky force hole, the light speed ramming attack, the fight on the planet with the red clouds everywhere... all visually memorable scenes that nothing in TFA really matches.
- As Surfinn mentioned, great battle scenes.
- I actually started to give a shit about Po, mostly thanks to his fuckups. Hopefully that development carries over into the next movie.
There's no pleasing everyone
Not to say he didn't have his acting troubles in ANH (I still love him in it though), just cuz you didn't break out doesn't mean you're not a good actor.
I mean, do you actually think the intent of the film was to present luke as a selfish coward who dies alone in disgrace? You think that is an 'objective interpretation' of the writers intent? Even with characters like luke, yoda, rose and Leia literally spelling out the sub text? Did we even watch the same film? It's ok to think the film didn't pull off what it was going for but you actually believe they wanted the audience look at Luke's story arc and think 'what a punk bitch'?
Did the little kids at the end of the film retelling the story of the greatest Jedi in the galaxy and his trimumphant victory over the first order not give you some inkling that they were trying to give Luke's story arc a satisfying conclusion?
I shudder to think how badly people would have mis interpretated this movie if it had attempted actual subtlely.
Everyone has their role. His career is very substandard as a screen actor. Arguably being seen as Luke Skywalker his entire career has hurt him but he has proven to be a far better voice actor than live. Not a knock on ability, just that's his niche like some stage actors are terrible film and vice versa.
But...Hamill isn't a good actor in the majority of his live action acting. Wonderful voice actor, typically a shitty actor in live action
I don't think he is a bad actor. He never had a problem playing Luke Skywalker, and he stepped in and completed the arc people have been waiting their whole lives for without a beat.
He just doesn't have that wide range.
That's fair. If you have time sometime, there are some books that amazing, such as Bloodline or Lost Stars. You'll understand a lot from the universe with those.
Snoke connected them without either knowing to get Rey to come to him willingly.
You make a good point, it was always possible in theory. It's why I just see the weaponized lightspeed as a can of worms that should never have been openend. Part of this is that I grew up on the old EU and RPG which had some meticulous rules about gravity wells, interdiction fields, and a concept that lightspeed was actually another dimension (at least that's how a remembered it). They were writing around this subject for obvious reasons. TLJ rams right through it
I'm saying that people can see all of that and make their own decision if the message that the film gives shines through or not. I don't think anyone is inherently wrong if they think that Luke wasn't a hero in the end of this film. People can understand the messaging of the movie but still come away unconvinced.
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Isn't it also fair to say he hasn't gotten a chance to play a lot of roles that cover a wide range? Just cuz people saw him as Luke Skywalker after SW doesn't mean he couldn't have done other things well.
Good actors aren't cast all the time, for various reasons.
I'd say his acting is good in the OT, aside from a rocky start in ANH (which fits well enough still). There's obviously the NOOOO but that's probably the worst take they could have gone with, lol.
He's fantastic in TLJ, and he's playing a completely different Luke than we've ever seen. So to paint him as a one trick pony is pretty unfair, as an actor, even if he hasn't been in a lot of stuff.
Good actors aren't cast all the time, for various reasons.
I'd say his acting is good in the OT, aside from a rocky start in ANH (which fits well enough still). There's obviously the NOOOO but that's probably the worst take they could have gone with, lol.
He's fantastic in TLJ, and he's playing a completely different Luke than we've ever seen. So to paint him as a one trick pony is pretty unfair, as an actor, even if he hasn't been in a lot of stuff.
I think this is the crux of the matter for a lot of people. Luke was a symbol and legend to many and Rian Johnson tore him down, very conciously of course, as the narrative is constructed to highlight hero worship. The thing is, after the novelty of the subversiveness wears off, we're left with just one less ideal to aspire to, with nothing proposed in its place. I think Rian Johnson realized that too, because he directs Luke to make a comeback to that legend status in the end. The curtain has already been torn, unfortunately, and we see the man behind it. The legend told by the kids at the end rings false, as those kids in the audience that watched the movie witnessed Luke's disgrace.
We are left with a Star Wars movie that is more realistic in the way it treats hero Luke, but in doing so takes one of the cherished symbols that people looked up to and exchanges him for one of a countless number of broken protagonists that populate modern cinema. I'd propose that the myth was there for a reason. TLJ is just a reflection our world, while the OT created an idealized one we could strive for.
If you're a Metal Gear fan you may also want to watch it in its entirety :)