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Star Wars: The Last Jedi |OT3| The War is Just Beginning (Unmarked Spoilers)

Jest

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,565
NinjaScooter said:
Doesn't Kylo even tell Rey "You know it's true" when he reveals that her parents were nobodies? I think that was the entire point, to hammer the fact home, that she was hoping that she was more than just some junker kid abandoned by deadbeat parents, but was in denial about it. It absolutely felt to me as if it were meant to be definitive. It's like, the entire point of the movie and, seemingly, the trilogy. Not sure why so many fans are still latching onto the conspiracy theory level belief that they are just going to come out in Ep. 9 and be like "J/K Rey your dad is really Obi Wan!"
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Yes, Kylo says that. As he's telling her that the Resistance is doomed to fail and that if she joins him they can create a new and better empire, etc... That entire section of dialogue from him is his gaslighting Rey to make her join his side.

Kylo Ren: Do you know the truth about your parents? Or have you always known? You've just hidden it away. Say it.

Rey: [in tears] They were nobody.

Kylo Ren: They were filthy junk traders. Sold you off for drinking money. They're dead in a pauper's grave in the Jakku desert. You come from nothing. You're nothing. But not to me.
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Classic gaslighting. It's also telling that he says they're dead in a pauper's grave on Jakku when Rey saw in her own, non-Snoke-invoked vision that they left Jakku.

Aselith said:
Well, he said it directly.

When Rey got a flash of his future while they were connected, he got a flash of her parents which is how he learned who they are.
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Snoke manipulated everything that the both of them saw to orchestrate Rey coming to the ship. Kylo says he saw Rey's parents during the same vision that Rey has where she says she saw his future. The truth is, neither of them saw anything specific and they couldn't have as even Snoke couldn't see the specifics.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Einchy said:
Who said so?

And this movie left us with Kylo being the leader, Rey being the last Jedi and the Resistance having the galaxy on their side again. We got some meaty hooks for IX, why exactly do they have to be mysteries?
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Well... a compelling story.... at least.

Empire had 'Luke I am your father' turning dynamics on its head while introducing the greater looming threat of the emperor as well as Han being kidnapped. Things like Rey helping to lead the fight against the first order is like boiler plate stuff that is in any trilogy like this. I don't think Kylo being positioned as the main big bad is comparable to the kind of tension seen in ESB. Rey has routinely bested him at everything while being a novice.

Not that some of these should have been stretched out over all three films, but TLJ took away hooks.

I mean Snoke and who/what he is? Gone. Luke? Gone (but might be back to drive Kylo good insane). Leia? Gone. Rey's parents? Gone. The light saber mystery? Probably gone? I mean... we get to see Poe in a leadership position...? That's not really a hook, that's just how characters have developed throughout the trilogy.

Sure there are a lot of things they can DO (ish) but unless JJ gets really damn clever it's all going to boil down to a RotJ like showdown between sides, and maybe Kylo kills himself instead of getting thrown down an elevator shaft. The result is still the same.
 
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Heshinsi

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,093
Can't wait for General Hux to surprise kill Kylo Ren in Episode IX. It will be a running gag with the NO, where the head person gets offed by a subordinate who they constantly berate and belittle.
 
Ushojax

Ushojax

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,930
Hikari said:
You really think they'd waste a character with so much potential like that? I think hologram Snoke isn't throne room Snoke at all. It's all a ruse.
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What potential? He's just another withered old man hiding in his throne room. We've seen that a thousand times in SW, Kylo is a much more interesting character and we've never seen a crackpot like him try to lead an Empire.

I don't disagree that a tiny bit of background on Snoke would have been nice but what we saw on screen was a pretty boring retread of the Emperor. He was hardly an intriguing prospect.
 
Mona

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Heshinsi said:
Can't wait for General Hux to surprise kill Kylo Ren in Episode IX. It will be a running gag with the NO, where the head person gets offed by a subordinate who they constantly berate and belittle.
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yes! usurp people's expectations, shock the audience with something they dont expect!
 
Prine

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
Einchy said:
Who said so?

And this movie left us with Kylo being the leader, Rey being the last Jedi and the Resistance having the galaxy on their side again. We got some meaty hooks for IX, why exactly do they have to be mysteries?
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Not sure about that, Starkillerbase taking out the old republic shook the entire galaxy, hence no one answering thier plea for help.

Granted, Luke lit the spark of Rebellion with his miraculous display of bravery and strength against all odds, so having witnessed that, and spreading the word they will gain support and rebuild.

Expect a time jump for 9.
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Surfinn said:
I don't understand.

How can you possibly watch TLJ and think Luke isn't a hero

Holy hell
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The only way I can see it is if you don't buy into the logic of his legends restarting hope in the galaxy

Or

You view his selfishness having indirectly cost millions of innocent lives as irredeemable even in the face of him appearing as a ghost for 20 seconds to let the resistance get away and restart the war. As such he is unworthy of the title of hero.
 
Betty

Betty

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,604
Surfinn said:
I don't understand.

How can you possibly watch TLJ and think Luke isn't a hero

Holy hell
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So he saved the resistance, made Kylo look pathetic in front of his army, left a lasting impression on the First Order that will always haunt them and inspired hope throughout the galaxy that will eventually snuff out this evil from existence and bring peace to untold trillions.

But couldn't he have done more?
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Betty said:
So he saved the resistance, made Kylo look pathetic in front of his army, left a lasting impression on the First Order that will always haunt them and inspired hope throughout the galaxy that will eventually snuff out this evil from existence and bring peace to untold trillions.

But couldn't he have done more?
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Well yeah he could have, y'know, not ran away to an island to die while the First Order established itself and killed billions of people because he couldn't get over himself and own up to his mistake. Let's not forget trying to purposefully end the Jedi and their teachings entirely to all but guarantee the Sith/Knights of Ren/Darkside rules the Galaxy.

But apparently his feelings are just that important.
 
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Surfinn

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Seeya said:
The only way I can see it is if you don't buy into the logic of his legends restarting hope in the galaxy

Or

You view his selfishness having indirectly cost millions of innocent lives as irredeemable even in the face of him appearing as a ghost for 20 seconds to let the resistance get away and restart the war. As such he is unworthy of the title of hero.
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I'd respond to this but Betty got it covered
 
Einchy

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
mfw people think Snoke is alive and still have Rey's parents theories after watching TLJ.
MS4LmSX.gif
 
Surfinn

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Seeya said:
092a6761aa4ba2547d8439dc5bbdc675.gif

You're gonna need a bigger boat
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You just don't like Luke behaving like a real human being.

It makes perfect sense for him to develop the way he did in TFA and TLJ, considering he never really experienced a true failure in the OT. He experienced hardships, but ultimately succeeded in pretty much everything he did. He wanted to become a Jedi, like his father. He wanted to save Han from Jabba. He wanted to turn Vader back to Anakin. He wanted to save the day, from the empire.

He did all he set out to do. Accomplished all of his goals.

His first real, true personal failure is Ben Solo. And the FO rose because of it.
 
RSTEIN

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,870
One thing I'll add is the Skywalkers aren't exactly heroic figures 30 years after Endor. Leia hid the fact from everyone that Vader was her father. During the Senate race for First Senator, a Centrist Senator reveals this fact after learning of it from a private message meant for Leia. After this, Leia's credibility is crushed. Was she working for Vader the whole time? What about Luke? Also the Empire was seen by many as a fundamentally good thing but with poor leadership/corruption. Remember, nobody really knows Palpatine is a Sith. Yes, "both sides" exists in Star Wars, lol.
 
Mr_Black

Mr_Black

Banned for having an alt account
Member
Oct 27, 2017
969
Still haven't seen it waiting on bluray.

Didn't care much for the first one so thought I'd just wait.

So there's some new force contrivance power that enables dead people and alive to project themselves elsewhere in the universe to effect things now? Or have I read that wrong?

How's the character and progression arcs in this? Is it going to be consistent throughout the trilogy? Some people saying this retcons some of the work of the first movie, so lack of plot harmony or necessary cuts?
 
ZeoVGM

ZeoVGM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
76,219
Providence, RI
Hikari said:
You really think they'd waste a character with so much potential like that? I think hologram Snoke isn't throne room Snoke at all. It's all a ruse.
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I never thought he had much potential. He always felt like Emperor 2.0, a retread. TLJ justified his existence for me by having him push Ren further to the dark side, rather than back to the light like the Emperor did for Vader.
 
Surfinn

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Mona said:
wtf is this, luke abandoned his training to rush and save his friends, didn't make it in time, got thrashed by Vader and then committed suicide
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Lol.. is this for real

His friends survived (their fate remained the same in ESB, regardless of if he left or not). Then he escaped. He lost a hand, but instead of being captured by Vader, he escapes back with Leia.

Despite his recklessness, he ultimately got away. And got another chance to do what he wanted to do.
 
Visanideth

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Betty said:
So he saved the resistance, made Kylo look pathetic in front of his army, left a lasting impression on the First Order that will always haunt them and inspired hope throughout the galaxy that will eventually snuff out this evil from existence and bring peace to untold trillions.

But couldn't he have done more?
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How, how, how did he make Kylo look pathetic???
Really, what's this bullshit about Luke humiliating Kylo.

Luke pulled a prank and died. The guy the FO feared, the guy Snoke wanted dead, the big boogey-man didn't have the guts to show up and then died of old age. Really, where's the humiliation?
 
RSTEIN

RSTEIN

Member
Nov 13, 2017
1,870
Mr_Black said:
Still haven't seen it waiting on bluray.

Didn't care much for the first one so thought I'd just wait.

So there's some new force contrivance power that enables dead people and alive to project themselves elsewhere in the universe to effect things now? Or have I read that wrong?

How's the character and progression arcs in this? Is it going to be consistent throughout the trilogy? Some people saying this retcons some of the work of the first movie, so lack of plot harmony or necessary cuts?
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Every movie, even the original trilogy, has introduced a new force power of some sort. It shouldn't be surprising to see new force powers. Projection has been seen before in SW universe.

I wouldn't say it retcons things from the first movie. More like destroys them completely, lol.
 
Visanideth

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Please let Snoke stay dead.

We come from 2 movies building and destroying their own premises and leading to pretty much nothing; there's really no time to rethread abandoned plotlines. Right now, Episode IX has to rebuild some form of tension and then resolve it, in the span of a single movie.

That's one of the biggest drawbacks of Rian Johnson's "let's demolish all expectations and plot threads" plans. Episode VIII ends up pretty much where it started, just with a lot of people dead and a lot of questions answered or dismissed. So we move into episode IX pretty much in a blank slate state. Not the best thing for a third episode.
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Visanideth said:
How, how, how did he make Kylo look pathetic???
Really, what's this bullshit about Luke humiliating Kylo.

Luke pulled a prank and died. The guy the FO feared, the guy Snoke wanted dead, the big boogey-man didn't have the guts to show up and then died of old age. Really, where's the humiliation?
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you are aware that the resistance escaped due to kylo insistance of fighting Luke?

and he wasnt even there.

Kylo lost the battle just for his sturboness and impatience.

he looked pathetic in front of his own troops

you can even see this on Kylo last scene, on his knees, humilliated being watched by his troops
 

Seeya

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,984
Surfinn said:
You just don't like Luke behaving like a real human being. It makes perfect sense for him to develop the way he did in TFA and TLJ, considering he never really experienced a true failure in the OT. He experienced hardships, but ultimately succeeded in pretty much everything he did. He wanted to become a Jedi, like his father. He wanted to save Han from Jabba. He wanted to turn Vader back to Anakin. He wanted to save the day, from the empire.

He did all he set out to do. Accomplished all of his goals.

His first real, true failure is Ben Solo.
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Oh so a hero is a person who only cares about their own goals?

I can accept Luke being flawed and human (which he was all through the OT anyway, but I digress). You're the one making the claim that Luke MUST be considered a hero given his actions. Have at it. The floor is yours.
 
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Surfinn

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
Mona said:
thats called failure, when you try to save someone and fail

and if you find yourself at a point where suicide is the best option, you've reached true failure in life my friend
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He experienced small failures, but not one in which he didn't ultimately accomplish his goals. His failures let to setbacks. Ben is the first time he had a thorough failure.. something he couldn't come back from. He couldn't just try again.

Something he had to just accept and move on from.

He doesn't experience that in the OT.

That's what I was trying to say.
 
Einchy

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,659
Last shot of Hux in this movie is him looking down at Kylo with absolute disgust that he was tricked into letting the Resistance go.
 
Hikari

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,695
Elysium
Einchy said:
mfw people think Snoke is alive and still have Rey's parents theories after watching TLJ.
MS4LmSX.gif
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Snoke can still very much be alive. Until we get official confirmation, I'm holding on to him being alive. Such an extremely powerful character wouldn't kick the bucket like that. Look at all the new Snoke theories. There's some plausible ones. Let's not rule it out just because you see his corpse. There's background stuff on Snoke's ring for instance in the visual dictionary and there may very well be a lot more to him. He single handedly built a new "sith" and is extremely powerful. The film will not make sense for Episode IX because Rey vs Ren wont cut it unless Ren has his knights by his side. You're talking about an extremely boring final episode of Star wars. Ren isn't cut out to be Supreme Leader and is still extremely vulnerable and lonely.
 
Gustaf

Gustaf

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
14,926
Hikari said:
Snoke can still very much be alive. Until we get official confirmation, I'm holding on to him being alive. Such an extremely powerful character wouldn't kick the bucket like that. Look at all the new Snoke theories. There's some plausible ones. Let's not rule it out just because you see his corpse. There's background stuff on Snoke's ring for instance in the visual dictionary and there may very well be a lot more to him. He single handedly built a new "sith" and is extremely powerful. The film will not make sense for Episode IX because Rey vs Ren wont cut it unless Ren has his knights by his side. You're talking about an extremely boring final episode of Star wars. Ren isn't cut out to be Supreme Leader and is still extremely vulnerable and lonely.
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HE DEAD
 
Orb

Orb

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,465
USA
there's no point in arguing over whether or not we should believe Kylo about Rey's parents when Rian Johnson already said it's the truth
 
Hikari

Hikari

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,695
Elysium
Einchy said:
Rian confirmed it.

Actually, the word "confirms" implies that this was a point that had to be clarified, he discusses Snoke's death with someone talking about the movie with him.
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He didn't say he was dead. He said Snoke was a stepping stone for Kylo which is true but Snoke is a lot more than that. He said we didn't know Palpatine as an excuse.
 
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