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JAlpsWanderer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,023
Why wait in your misterious Sith planet and build a secret fleet army with those infinite trillion million resources, instead of just using all those trillion of people under his thumb to crush the resistance? Why don't have a billion of those people just crash their ships on the resistance controlled planets and win the war, get your grandaughter jailed in your sith mansion, give her a sword laser for her twelve bitrthday and fullfill your ambitions in half the time you take to build the stupid planet destroyer fleet?

Let's not defend the idea on its merits, because it dosn't have any merit. The thing is that there was no set-up and it directly contradicts several moments of the trilogy and the new trilogy.

Agree that there was no setup, but I don't think it contradicts anything. Why is Star Wars such a static, sacred thing that it's unreasonable?

It's fine that you disagree, but I think Nerrel put it best in his recent video.
Give it a watch and see if you feel any differently. (timestamped so you can see what I'm getting at)
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
For those of you who believe that Kylo Ren shouldn't have been redeemed, how would you have made that work with Leia's story? I'm honestly curious. Would he be the one killing Leia or something like that?

To me, he was always going to be redeemed considering who he was, the struggles he had, and how he didn't want to kill Leia in The Last Jedi. My main problem was with how it was executed. I really do think Rian tried to set him up as the real bad guy in IX, but completely unprepared and not being what the First Order needed him to be.
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
Agree that there was no setup, but I don't think it contradicts anything. Why is Star Wars such a static, sacred thing that it's unreasonable?

It's fine that you disagree, but I think Nerrel put it best in his recent video.
Give it a watch and see if you feel any differently. (timestamped so you can see what I'm getting at)


I never complained about the weird sci-fi stuff, like I can even accept Palpatine somehow destroying a whole fleet with force powers, like whatever. Is silly, but ok, let's buy it.

The disconnect comes from establishing that the empire is no more after ROTJ and basically resurfacing in the First Order and TLJ establishing further the idea that the First Order managed to get all those resources thanks to powerful and very rich individuals that are basically financing the war with their money to somehow Palpatine getting a way more powerful army from tech that was not posible until that movie from all we know of the established universe, all that from a super secret Sith planet, with unknown resources that aren't obviously from the people who was financing the war until now.

That's not "he's using force powers through TV" level of suspension of disbelief, which can be explained with "magic space stuff", that's not changing the static and sacred foundations of the original trilogy, that's throwing logic and common sense through the window. There's a big difference between the two.
 

Kalel114

Member
Oct 27, 2017
821
Who cares about Kennedy's involvement, when Terrio shouldn't have been involved in the first place.
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
I liked TFA. I LOVED TLJ. Rogue One has the best non-Jedi battles in the whole series. I think Solo is incredibly charming. The prequels, for all their narrative flaws, at least gave us fertile ground to come up with new stories (Clone Wars, comics, etc).

TRoS is a complete mess of comically stupid ideas that absolutely don't make sense, narratively or un-universe. It's JJ furiously backpedaling on every good thing Rian Johnson did, adding the most empty fanservice moments possible (Chewie gets his medal, guys!), and re-introducing an old villain who's only popular because he's a meme (I don't know if Kennedy is responsible for that or not, but I'm blaming JJ). And to top it off, it doesn't even introduce any interesting ships, aliens, planets, creatures, or ideas to the universe! It's bad in every possible way it could be bad.

The character has been memed to death, but The Emperor is one of cinema's most iconic villains.

I've been on team Palpatine since ROTJ.
 
Oct 27, 2017
42,700
I don't see Palpatine using a few of his trillions of subjects, be they slaves or Sith followers, to build a fleet in the outer regions over a few decades as so far fetched in this universe.
Well for one, Palpatine "died". So he would have not only had to have been...revived somehow, he would have had to do so in a way that prevented Luke or Leia or any of the force ghosts from sensing his return, while simultaneously allowing his followers or Empire remnants (who weren't in the First Order, for reasons) to be aware. And I'm assuming Star Destroyers, especially that many, would take tons of time so it would have been before his message (we don't know how long that was broadcasting for) But if Snoke really was just a puppet of his, then TFO was also essentially his as well, so why didn't he provide them with all these star destroyers all this time? The second you start thinking about it, it makes no logical sense. And I'm willing to suspend my disbelief about a lot of things. Star Wars is a science fantasy film after all, but this even violates its internal logic which is the issue
 

Lost Lemurian

Member
Nov 30, 2019
4,296
The character has been memed to death, but The Emperor is one of cinema's most iconic villains.

I've been on team Palpatine since ROTJ.
That may be, but he's back because he's a meme.

Kylo Ren was the antagonist of the sequel trilogy, and he was a great antagonist. He deserved better than being retroactively made into a hollow puppet of an old villain whose return was a complete ass-pull.
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
896
Terrio's comment is quite interesting.
Because it does clashes with Trevorrow's account from few days ago, where he said that Palpatine's wasn't part of his proposed script. As a matter of fact, he sounds surprised that JJ went with such direction.

www.empireonline.com

Star Wars: Colin Trevorrow On His Rise Of Skywalker Writing Credit And His Last Jedi Contribution – Exclusive

The filmmaker reveals who decided to bring back Emperor Palpatine and more. Read Empire's exclusive chat.
"Bringing back the Emperor was an idea JJ brought to the table when he came on board," Trevorrow says.
"It's honestly something I never considered. I commend him for it. This was a tough story to unlock, and he found the key."

Which means that either he is lying, or KK didn't originally demanded such approach until JJ returned.
And again, it's surprising how all the involved parties (actors, directors, executives) have been -- at minimum --, contradicting each other in such public display.

If only Disney had the guts to release a proper Post-mortem Behind The Scenes of the whole trilogy. Guess we will have to settle with these slow dripping.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Terrio's comment is quite interesting.
Because it does clashes with Trevorrow's account, just few days, where he said that Palpatine's wasn't part of his proposed script. As a matter of fact, he sounds surprised that JJ went with such direction.

Which means that either he is lying, or KK didn't originally demanded such approach until JJ returned.
And again, it's surprising how all the involved parties (actors, directors, executives) have been -- at minimum --, contradicting each other in such public display.

If only Disney had the guts to release a proper Post-mortem Behind The Scenes of the whole trilogy. Guess we will have to settle with these slow dripping.

He's not saying KK/Disney mandated Palpatine coming back, they did mandate that they have to focus on Rey and Ren and that Kylo as son of Han and Leia had to be redeemed.

Past that, they had a wide range of creative freedom it sounds like.
 

Bor Gullet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,399
You don't have to do the exact same redemption though. Why do you want another ROTJ, I just don't get it? We have one. And it's much better than this one.

Then keep Kylo alive.

Vader's redemption was fine for me until the prequels hit. After the prequels? Yea, I don't buy his redemption at all.

Atoning for your sins isn't exclusive to fighting a bigger, badder guy. There's plenty of ways to do that and while I'm not a script writer, I can think of some basic plot ideas, such as:

Part of Kylo's redemption is a sacrifice in order to stop something he set in motion, that uninterrupted would cost millions of lives.

It's basic. But it works if your purpose is to focus on the character without having to bring back a big bad evil.

Yes but this is Star Wars. It's always been a classic good vs evil story. Even if you have Kylo sacrifice himself for something he set in motion, you're still presumably introducing a new threat.

I'm all for trying out new things, but TROS is intended to close off George Lucas's saga. You kind of have to adhere to those same themes and messages.
 

Deleted member 7777

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
681
"When you rewatch the earlier films," he added, "things start to make additional sense. Ren and his devotion to the idea of his grandfather. The voice that he's always heard in his head. The certain similarities between Snoke and Palpatine. The intention was that, by the time you get to Episode IX, you realize there were real reasons this is all happening. It all shows how this story is being fought cyclically through the series."

He sure knows how to sell a load of shit.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
To be honest the idea that Palpatine was the Vader voice in Kylo's head all along at least makes some sense.

It makes no sense that Anakin having turned to the light would be speaking in Darth Vader's voice in evil terms to his grandson. Kylo being played the voice being a phony does work.
 

Sendero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
896
He's not saying KK/Disney mandated Palpatine coming back, they did mandate that they have to focus on Rey and Ren and that Kylo as son of Han and Leia had to be redeemed.

Past that, they had a wide range of creative freedom it sounds like.
Its hard to tell the exact intention of the talker, but in the original interview (below), he is specifically being asked about Palpatine's return idea, and he immediately brings KK to the topic.

www.awardsdaily.com

‘Star Wars’ Screenwriter Chris Terrio on Ending the 42-year ‘Skywalker’ Saga

Screenwriter Chris Terrio won an Academy Award for writing Argo, the 2013 Oscar winner for Best Picture directed by Ben Affleck. That experience, however, would not prepare him to step into the wor…
AD: Was returning to this entity known as Palpatine always in the plan or was it newly introduced in Episode IX?
CT: Well, I can't speak to Kathy's overall intent. That was certainly discussed and was discussed before I ever came on. Kathy had this overall vision that we had to be telling the same story for nine episodes. Although from the sleight of hand of Episode VII and Episode VIII, you wouldn't necessarily know immediately that we were telling the same story. She thought it would be a very strong end for the ninth movie.

If you read the previous question, the interviewer is clearly talking about the interaction between him and JJ, and -- again--, he brings/namechecks KK as the one with the overall plan.
I'm sure we will get even more clarifications in the upcoming weeks.
 
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UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Its hard to tell the exact intention of the talker, but in the original interview (below), he is specifically being asked about Palpatine's return idea, and he immediately brings KK to the topic.

www.awardsdaily.com

‘Star Wars’ Screenwriter Chris Terrio on Ending the 42-year ‘Skywalker’ Saga

Screenwriter Chris Terrio won an Academy Award for writing Argo, the 2013 Oscar winner for Best Picture directed by Ben Affleck. That experience, however, would not prepare him to step into the wor…

It sounds to me like

Kylo redemeption
IX wrapping up the full Skywalker Saga

Were basic asks from KK/Disney but nothing specific past that. JJ probably suggested the Palpatine thing. That gives you your big bad since you know you have to have Kylo turn good and it also brings the whole story full circle by bringing back the prime antagonist for the last chapter. KK was on board with it.
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,058
So let me get this straight.

wKVmFH9.png


BvS - He only came in at the end to do dialogue re-writes.

JL - Joss Whedon re-wrote most of his work.

TRoS - He was forced to write to corporate's story beats.
 

Deleted member 19218

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,323
Why did Kylo have to be redeemed? It only happened once before with Darth Vader but because I've heard of redemption talk in Episodes 5, 6, 7 and 8 redeeming Kylo in Episode 9 just felt so cliche and lazy.

Just having the movie end with Rey killing Kylo at the end might sound less original but I feel it would actually be more interesting and TLJ had set up Episode 9 to be this final showdown between these two characters.

Kylo is a great villian, he kills Han and therefore you're really invested in wanting this guy to perish but he kind of gets redeemed and I don't think the character deserves that.

EDIT: Also bringing back Palpatine just kind of invalidates the efforts of the main characters in the original trilogy, they didn't really stop The Empire in the end, just give it a setback.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,858
Terrio's comment is quite interesting.
Because it does clashes with Trevorrow's account, just few days, where he said that Palpatine's wasn't part of his proposed script. As a matter of fact, he sounds surprised that JJ went with such direction.

Which means that either he is lying, or KK didn't originally demanded such approach until JJ returned.
And again, it's surprising how all the involved parties (actors, directors, executives) have been -- at minimum --, contradicting each other in such public display.

If only Disney had the guts to release a proper Post-mortem Behind The Scenes of the whole trilogy. Guess we will have to settle with these slow dripping.

Nobody wants to take blame for anything about TROS, so this is the only way they can defend themselves. Point the blame at everybody else while refusing to take responsibility for their own role in this shitshow.

At the end of they day, they are all guilty. And we'll never get the real story about this film's turbulent production. It is with the Force now (aka Disney, the only force that matters because they will never let anybody speak about this for as long as they own Star Wars)
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,373
Between TROS, Solo, and the lack of planning throughout this trilogy, I think more of the blame rests on Kennedy's shoulders for the state of the franchise
 

Mido

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,683
I could point out the many many similarities but that might take too long. Eh I'll do it anyways.

You have the big bad behind the scenes who wants Luke Skywalker (Palpatine, Snoke)

The second villain is a dark side user who wants to turn the main hero into a villain and help them rule the galaxy together. (Vader, Kylo Ren)

The conflict is the rebels/resistance vs the Empire/First Order and the Empire/First Order wants to rule the galaxy and take over

There are new massive Star Destroyers

In both The Last Jedi and The Empire Strikes Back we follow our heroes on a single ship, on the run through space from the Empire/First Order's most powerful capital ships.

Meanwhile, Luke and Rey are off on remote planets, learning the ways of the Force from Jedi Masters who are pretty cagey about taking on new pupils at first.

Both movies have huge parental revelations

Both Yoda and Luke are in exile before training their proteges

Both jedi masters turn down the hero at first

After brief periods of training, they both leave to rejoin the larger fight after experiencing Force-induced visions.

The subplots in both movies take us to far away exotic locations where our heroes only manage to escape because their droids save their butts.

Luke and Rey confront Darth Vader and Kylo Ren. Rey implores Kylo to turn back to the light just like how Luke implored his father to turn back to the light.

Then there's the big lightsaber fight. After all is said and done, Darth Vader and Kylo Ren offer Luke and Rey the chance to rule the galaxy by their sides. They also reveal huge secrets about both characters' parentage.

Luke and Rey refuse to join the darkside. By the end of the film, our heroes are batter, changed, and barely holding on, but they're ready to keep fighting and hopeful for the future.


The entire movie is literally The Empire Strikes back with new characters and some new twists. Whoever calls it "fresh" or "original" clearly can't see how similar it is to the Empire Strikes Back. Rey's arc is just Luke's arc all over again.
Good stuff.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
Its a battle royale to see who can be thrown under the bus first.

What a shame for my favorite Franchise.

Sigh.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,118
Its always someone else's fault with this chucklefuck.
Studio execs generally require certain things in the movies they make especially tentpole blockbusters. Some people can work within that frame and some cannot. Plenty of talented people work on these blockbusters but turn out pretty average. You need a solid team behind the overall production team to support them and be pretty hands off while also being fair. Like, at a certain point it does become the studio's fault because they allowed this situation to happen: 2 directors for a trilogy without any solid framework. Marvel puts out some aggressively OK films but they remain a constant because there's years of planning involved that isn't really seen outside Marvel. Like, you'd assume a Batman film with Ben Affleck's influence would be OK, but... nope. A competent studio is arguably more important than the film's crew as their framework will allow for the films to be made well.
 

Surakian

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
10,858
Between TROS, Solo, and the lack of planning throughout this trilogy, I think more of the blame rests on Kennedy's shoulders for the state of the franchise

I blame her for mishandling things on the movie front, but I think she's also approved some good stuff for the franchise too. This is really the reason why I'm not 100% ready to blame her for everything. Disney, her, other execs...they all share blame.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,629
TROS should have been delayed after Trev's firing and the death of Fisher.

This is the long and short of it. Trying to keep the same production schedule despite Carrie dying and Colin being fired was a mistake the film could not recover from.

JJ would still suck if they had more time, because he's JJ...but it would've sucked a bit LESS.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,373
She's one of the most successful producers in the history of cinema. If she can't bring Disney Star Wars to success, who can?
Someone with the foresight to map out a new trilogy for the most lucrative franchise Disney has purchased and to not release a new film 6 months after a large release? That's not to mention the poor judgement in picking directors and writers. She's been successful in the past, but this is far from her best work.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,118
TROS should have been delayed after Trev's firing and the death of Fisher.
It needed a singular vision. That's it. It would have been fine if JJ did the entire thing, it would have been fine if Rian did the entire thing. Both clearly wanted something different from Star Wars and it shows. It's not like the MCU where Feige plans this shit in way advance or Harry Potter where there's an established framework already with the books or the Game of Thrones seasons (before it catches up with the books). It was doomed once it was revealed there wasn't a plan for the 3 where 1 person would direct all 3 or there was an agreement on the screenplay / writing.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,157
NYC
The best redemption for Ben would've been the silent kind, where only the audience/viewers ever really know what he did. Ben Solo dies as Kylo Ren in the eyes of everyone else, but we know that his final act was a deliberate one that allowed the heroes to win.
 

a916

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,833
Terrio's comment is quite interesting.
Because it does clashes with Trevorrow's account from few days ago, where he said that Palpatine's wasn't part of his proposed script. As a matter of fact, he sounds surprised that JJ went with such direction.

www.empireonline.com

Star Wars: Colin Trevorrow On His Rise Of Skywalker Writing Credit And His Last Jedi Contribution – Exclusive

The filmmaker reveals who decided to bring back Emperor Palpatine and more. Read Empire's exclusive chat.


Which means that either he is lying, or KK didn't originally demanded such approach until JJ returned.
And again, it's surprising how all the involved parties (actors, directors, executives) have been -- at minimum --, contradicting each other in such public display.

If only Disney had the guts to release a proper Post-mortem Behind The Scenes of the whole trilogy. Guess we will have to settle with these slow dripping.

Terrio's quotes kind of make it sound like KK gave them the premise and then it was him and JJ that started pursuing the Palpatine thing.
 

hurlex

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,143
Kylo should have been the big bad. Contrast Vader being redeemed but Kylo not. A central question of the movie could have been if he deserves redemption.
 

Aaron

I’m seeing double here!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,077
Minneapolis
The best redemption for Ben would've been the silent kind, where only the audience/viewers ever really know what he did. Ben Solo dies as Kylo Ren in the eyes of everyone else, but we know that his final act was a deliberate one that allowed the heroes to win.
I can get behind this.

giphy.gif


Such a good scene.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,629
The best redemption for Ben would've been the silent kind, where only the audience/viewers ever really know what he did. Ben Solo dies as Kylo Ren in the eyes of everyone else, but we know that his final act was a deliberate one that allowed the heroes to win.

Yup. That would've been way cooler than what we got.
 

Dabanton

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,912
Between TROS, Solo, and the lack of planning throughout this trilogy, I think more of the blame rests on Kennedy's shoulders for the state of the franchise

Pretty much she's the one who signs off and hires and fires.

Every SW film under her tenure with the exception of TFA (which was an easy slam dunk) has seen problems.

It's a damn shame though we had such great characters that were undermined at every turn.

We'll never get an official what happened behind the scenes story, but I bet we'll get an off the record report when she steps down.
 

Jarmel

The Jackrabbit Always Wins
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,330
New York
Pretty much she's the one who signs off and hires and fires.

Every SW film under her tenure with the exception of TFA (which was an easy slam dunk) has seen problems.

It's a damn shame though we had such great characters that were undermined at every turn.

We'll never get an official what happened behind the scenes story, but I bet we'll get an off the record report when she steps down.
TFA had problems too. Abrams was ripping his hair out about the initial deadline for TFA and then Ford had to essentially break his leg for Kennedy to grant a delay. Shit is nuts.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,629
Pretty much she's the one who signs off and hires and fires.

Every SW film under her tenure with the exception of TFA (which was an easy slam dunk) has seen problems.

It's a damn shame though we had such great characters that were undermined at every turn.

We'll never get an official what happened behind the scenes story, but I bet we'll get an off the record report when she steps down.

Yeah, like Jarmel said there hasn't been a Disney Wars movie that hasn't had some trouble attached to it.

TLJ was the smoothest production, ironically enough.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,118
This is the long and short of it. Trying to keep the same production schedule despite Carrie dying and Colin being fired was a mistake the film could not recover from.

JJ would still suck if they had more time, because he's JJ...but it would've sucked a bit LESS.
I cannot tell if JJ being a hack is a new thing because he ruined Star Wars or people actually believe his prior work is bad?