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polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
I can count with one hand the amount of times the community has brought up something we werent aware of already. We have a ton of checks and balances not just internally but with our partners as well. Some stuff will always slip, like Qui-Gonn's saber being blue that one time, but thats gamedev in general

Not sure what you mean with this. You can't be saying you're aware of all the bugs and issues before you push things live? There are a few long standing bugs which have been around for literally years which really baffle me. I'd really love to come in for a week to see the codebase and try and fix some of them for you. As an example, there's what appears to be a floating point rounding issue which can cause text to jump around the screen on a per-frame basis. It's amazing to me that it has existed all over the game (main chat, TW logs, TB logs) for years without being addressed.

Either way I was referring to only judging your work from an internal perspective (both what you decide to work on, and the quality of what you produce.) If the players dislike the things you choose to work on, and/or the way you decide to implement them, it sounds like you're basically saying it doesn't matter as long as you think you did a good job (and presumably, as long as the MTX metrics perform well.) As a game designer, surely there's a desire to have a happy player base who are spending because they enjoy the game, rather than having an angry and addicted player base who spend out of addiction, FOMO, etc.

Unfortunately, not at all. Sharing an engine doesn't equal sharing the code. We would have to completely start over, not to mention that even upgrading to a new version of Unity with new features can be extremely risky for an old game like ours. Going through all the permutations would veer into the confidential category, plus it would take forever.

Comparing us to a game like WoW is also not even in the same ballpark. They have infinite resources, their own engine, dont deal with external IP and their release cadence is way, way different. The time spent fixing things or upgrading things will directly take the time away from making things. We try to fix things when we can, older phones not being supported freed up some polygon budgets after all. When our cadence was Galaxy of Marquees, notice that we didnt have many Legendaries in that timeframe nor did we have new modes, ships, capital ships or new TB's. The "nothing is free" mantra is very applicable here. We finished Lightside Geo which was a crazy amount of work, then did new movie content in the middle of Xmas break, two new capital ships and two new characters that are way beyond the scope of a heroes journey. If we had done one at a time, I'm sure we would have made more unique content for the event but two new characters way above Legendary specs in simultaneous development? With the same team? Crazy amount of work.

At the end of the day, whether its visible or not, that comes and goes. People freaked out over Reys icon which is a tiny icon thats even tinier in game and that was enough for those folks to start making threads on reddit. That shows their passion and investment in the game and thats ultimately a good thing so I am not going to hate on them for that, but I wont overreact either.

It kinda feels like you don't feel you can be compared to anybody, then? Not fair to compare you to WoW, not fair to compare you to Marvel or other competitors etc. Your situation, your codebase, your team are obviously unique... that doesn't mean the players can't compare your product to others in the market. If, as it sounds, you're sticking on a version of Unity from who knows when, and the "risk" of updating will continue to prevent you to do so, then . Has there ever been any serious discussion or consideration to a ground up rewrite of the client? I guess you wouldn't be able to talk about it even if there was, but I bet there's a lot of people on the team who would love the opportunity to do something like that. There'd be nothing like getting to write a v2 of something armed with the knowledge of all the lessons your learned from writing v1 and it evolving over the next four plus years.

The whole "nothing is free" side of things is of course true, but again as I said before, I'd say the criticism is often on what you guys prioritise. You say to notice how things were during the marquees phase, but that's literally what the criticism is, right? Like you guys planned, designed, and released nothing but marquees for a while. Nobody asked you to or forced you to. You could have dropped a couple of those marquees for a legendary instead, or whatever. I think the silent majority favour the times where you are doing a few different things at the same time. Something for the newer players, something for the midgame, something for the endgame, something for the "tip of the spear". When you focus down on just one of those elements for a while, it gets dull for the players not in those categories. Again this isn't to diminish how much work the GLs no doubt were for you and the team, but for everyone who isn't in the 1% this last title update has nothing to offer them (at least for a few months). I actually kinda miss when Galactic War was non trivial and every day was a question of whether I'd be able to squeak through it and full clear or get stuck on one of the later nodes.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Not sure what you mean with this. You can't be saying you're aware of all the bugs and issues before you push things live? There are a few long standing bugs which have been around for literally years which really baffle me. I'd really love to come in for a week to see the codebase and try and fix some of them for you. As an example, there's what appears to be a floating point rounding issue which can cause text to jump around the screen on a per-frame basis. It's amazing to me that it has existed all over the game (main chat, TW logs, TB logs) for years without being addressed.

Either way I was referring to only judging your work from an internal perspective (both what you decide to work on, and the quality of what you produce.) If the players dislike the things you choose to work on, and/or the way you decide to implement them, it sounds like you're basically saying it doesn't matter as long as you think you did a good job (and presumably, as long as the MTX metrics perform well.) As a game designer, surely there's a desire to have a happy player base who are spending because they enjoy the game, rather than having an angry and addicted player base who spend out of addiction, FOMO, etc.

If you know how game development works or have a tech background you should know the myriad of reasons why not all bugs are fixed or why some things are fixed and not others. I appreciate the confidence, but I doubt youre a better engineer than every engineer we have at work and, for that particular bug Im sure theres a reason why it hasnt been adressed yet. As with all game development, we create, catch and fix bugs all the time before release and some still slip out, thats for a lot of different reasons, for example: we dont have time, they are not critical, they are hard to repro, they dont affect a large enough portion of the userbase, they are really hard to fix for non obvious reasons, fixing them would require touching really risky sections of code ... etc, etc. Thats just gamedev in general though, nothing particular to SWGoH. Bugs happen and bugs ship all of the time. You think the people who worked on Skyrim didnt know they were releasing a broken game? Of course they did, they were too busy fixing the bugs that were even worse, thats just the industry.

The reality is that if you spent one day in our studio youd have a lot of these questions answered within an hour.

Your second paragraph, that one starts going into specifics. Lets make sure we are using the royal "you" here, that means, the entirety of CG, the execs at EA and our partners at LF. Its not "me", Xavi, making every single decisions. I certainly make a few, but its a team effort and yeah, we are very judicious and have a lottttt of discussion regarding what goes in the game, when, how and why ... after all, we are the ones trusted with making the game, we play the game extensively and are the most successful EA mobile and SW game of all time.

rather than having an angry and addicted player base who spend out of addiction, FOMO, etc

I have seen this narrative make its way across reddit since we released the relics. I simply cannot agree with it but I can see some people have taken it as fact which is unfortunate because thats just not so.

It kinda feels like you don't feel you can be compared to anybody, then? Not fair to compare you to WoW, not fair to compare you to Marvel or other competitors etc. Your situation, your codebase, your team are obviously unique... that doesn't mean the players can't compare your product to others in the market. If, as it sounds, you're sticking on a version of Unity from who knows when, and the "risk" of updating will continue to prevent you to do so, then . Has there ever been any serious discussion or consideration to a ground up rewrite of the client? I guess you wouldn't be able to talk about it even if there was, but I bet there's a lot of people on the team who would love the opportunity to do something like that. There'd be nothing like getting to write a v2 of something armed with the knowledge of all the lessons your learned from writing v1 and it evolving over the next four plus years.

The whole "nothing is free" side of things is of course true, but again as I said before, I'd say the criticism is often on what you guys prioritise. You say to notice how things were during the marquees phase, but that's literally what the criticism is, right? Like you guys planned, designed, and released nothing but marquees for a while. Nobody asked you to or forced you to. You could have dropped a couple of those marquees for a legendary instead, or whatever. I think the silent majority favour the times where you are doing a few different things at the same time. Something for the newer players, something for the midgame, something for the endgame, something for the "tip of the spear". When you focus down on just one of those elements for a while, it gets dull for the players not in those categories. Again this isn't to diminish how much work the GLs no doubt were for you and the team, but for everyone who isn't in the 1% this last title update has nothing to offer them (at least for a few months). I actually kinda miss when Galactic War was non trivial and every day was a question of whether I'd be able to squeak through it and full clear or get stuck on one of the later nodes.

Comparisons are fine, you can definitely talk to me about what modes Marvel has shipped that would benefit SWGoH, or how FE Heroes release cadence should be studied, or what Dragalia is doing, etc, etc. I think non tech comparisons are fun and interesting. However, some comparisons dont work and the WoW example does not, neither does the Marvel graphical quality. Im not nullifying your point, I'm just discussing your examples. Of course we are willing and working towards improving our systems and engine, but I dont think youll be giving me a lot of games that are in our situation, because other than Clash of Clans and Fire Age, there arent a ton of games out there with our longevity in the mobile market, which means a lot of examples fall flat because their strategy just wouldn't work for us.

Like you guys planned, designed, and released nothing but marquees for a while. Nobody asked you to or forced you to

This is another phrase that comes out a lot. We create strategies based on the market, the numbers, our own intuition and desires as developers and other feedback sources. You have literally no idea who asks for things to be made and you are also implying things should only be made when we are asked to (either by fans or someone else)

Thing is release cadences are really, really hard and have to be planned in advance. Some theories are correct, some arent and pivoting mid development is often hard or impossible. Ive seen fans criticize every single release only to praise it weeks or months later, relics and grand arena being great examples. We are in the middle of creating systems that will allow for more stuff to do and I think the amount of characters well release this year will be fun and exciting ... but of course we cant tell you all ahead of time and it leaves people with nothing to do but speculate. Thats fine, thats the world we live in. We are in nigh uncharted territory for a game this size of this longevity, there is no tried and true path for us and as the level of investment from players increases, so does their sense of "ownership", which in turn increases the risk of toxicity and overreaction.

Again, thank you for your thoughts. I hope you realize Im not the games PR, just a team member with some insight on our process and a willingness to at least chat about it. A lot of your more precise questions cannot be fully answered in a public forum and Id love to chat about it in a pub once the apocalypse is over ;)
 

polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
If you know how game development works or have a tech background you should know the myriad of reasons why not all bugs are fixed or why some things are fixed and not others. I appreciate the confidence, but I doubt youre a better engineer than every engineer we have at work and, for that particular bug Im sure theres a reason why it hasnt been adressed yet. As with all game development, we create, catch and fix bugs all the time before release and some still slip out, thats for a lot of different reasons, for example: we dont have time, they are not critical, they are hard to repro, they dont affect a large enough portion of the userbase, they are really hard to fix for non obvious reasons, fixing them would require touching really risky sections of code ... etc, etc. Thats just gamedev in general though, nothing particular to SWGoH. Bugs happen and bugs ship all of the time. You think the people who worked on Skyrim didnt know they were releasing a broken game? Of course they did, they were too busy fixing the bugs that were even worse, thats just the industry.

This one is a very easy repro if nothing else! Happens on all my devices and on the emulator, took 10 seconds to make this gif. Makes trying to read the logs a fun little game in and of itself!



I get it though, the realities of software engineering and game development are what they are, and it's very easy for me to criticise from the outside in. Two years is quite a long time for something as egregious as the above to exist in a "living" game though, but I'm a stickler for interface related stuff and this particular one has always bothered me, probably partly because I have my theories on what the root cause is haha. I certainly don't mean to claim any kind of technical superiority, I've been programming too long for that... I just suspect this is an easy fix. That absolutely doesn't mean it would be though, every codebase has it's... exentricities!

Your second paragraph, that one starts going into specifics. Lets make sure we are using the royal "you" here, that means, the entirety of CG, the execs at EA and our partners at LF. Its not "me", Xavi, making every single decisions. I certainly make a few, but its a team effort and yeah, we are very judicious and have a lottttt of discussion regarding what goes in the game, when, how and why ... after all, we are the ones trusted with making the game, we play the game extensively and are the most successful EA mobile and SW game of all time.

Oh absolutely. I'm probably very guilty of conflating you as an individual with CG when I'm writing, apologies - hopefully you can figure out my intent from the context most of the time, but I'll try and be less loose with that.

I have seen this narrative make its way across reddit since we released the relics. I simply cannot agree with it but I can see some people have taken it as fact which is unfortunate because thats just not so.

It's not a rule, but you surely can't believe that none of your players have a problem with spending in the game? There are a couple of people off the top of my head in my arena shard chat who would absolutely fit the description. One has just lost their job amid the covid pandemic and is still ploughing significant sums of money into his GL unlock despite a very uncertain financial future at the moment. I mean on one hand, he's a grown man who ought to be able to control himself and do what's right for himself and his family, but also there's an element of danger when you mix an addictive personality in a period of mental instability with a game that, right now, is happy to take hundreds or thousands of dollars off you for the prereqs for a GL to help keep your 1st place payout safe for the next couple of months. Of course this is absolutely not specific to CG or anything and touches on the broader side of mobile gaming and MTXs etc. I'm not arguing there's anything inherently wrong with it either, any more than there is with a bar or casino, or anywhere else you can spend large amounts of money on recreation, but there must surely be some responsibility taken by the industry when part of the design goal is to trigger spending like that from certain parts of the player base? Obviously when you have your top end spenders putting 5 figures in a year, but who earn 7 figures a year and love the game to pieces that's all well and good. When it ends up catching somebody without the financial means in its net, though...

This is another phrase that comes out a lot. We create strategies based on the market, the numbers, our own intuition and desires as developers and other feedback sources. You have literally no idea who asks for things to be made and you are also implying things should only be made when we are asked to (either by fans or someone else)

Thing is release cadences are really, really hard and have to be planned in advance. Some theories are correct, some arent and pivoting mid development is often hard or impossible. Ive seen fans criticize every single release only to praise it weeks or months later, relics and grand arena being great examples. We are in the middle of creating systems that will allow for more stuff to do and I think the amount of characters well release this year will be fun and exciting ... but of course we cant tell you all ahead of time and it leaves people with nothing to do but speculate. Thats fine, thats the world we live in. We are in nigh uncharted territory for a game this size of this longevity, there is no tried and true path for us and as the level of investment from players increases, so does their sense of "ownership", which in turn increases the risk of toxicity and overreaction.

This is a great point, and well said: uncharted territory indeed. Exciting to see what the future holds, and just how long you guys can keep things fresh and interesting. I don't really read the game's subreddit often, but when I have ventured on recently I see a steady stream of posts by newer accounts excited by their first 7 star char or legendary unlock. It's kind of awesome to see that new people are still discovering the game now and having a great time. The amount of content ahead of a new player these days must be daunting but awesome, and no doubt the journey guide helped solidify that for people.

The criticism turning into praise point hits close to home as well, something I know I've been guilty of in the past. Quite often the decisions you guys make seem counter intuitive on release, but all of a sudden make a lot of sense a few months down the line when the next feature drops. You guys have all the foresight with what's ahead, whereas we're all judging everything with extremely limited vision into the future. I suppose that's just the nature of the beast to some degree, but it's definitely interesting to think about.

Again, thank you for your thoughts. I hope you realize Im not the games PR, just a team member with some insight on our process and a willingness to at least chat about it. A lot of your more precise questions cannot be fully answered in a public forum and Id love to chat about it in a pub once the apocalypse is over ;)

You too man, it's a pleasure chatting with you about it and I appreciate you taking the time. You have an obvious passion for the game and it's future and that's great to see; keep fighting the good fight! Hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Hey fellas, quick heads up. Friday was my last day at EA! Im taking a gamble on a crazy new opportunity in Spain so, while leaving SWGOH really hurts cause I love the team and what we were doing (Mando content being just a sample of what were up to) it was too good a chance to ignore, I'll be returning home after more than twenty years away. I'll get my tag fixed when I start next week

I'll still play the game as I have been though, its a good one.
 

Textured Monk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
170
Congrats and good luck on the new job, man. I know we give aspects of the game a hard time here but I've always appreciated you talking to us about what you can and the art we've gotten. I know I'm not the only one, either.

I hope the move and job work out for you.
 
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polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
Raging Spaniard Best of luck with the move fella, and yeah... echoing what Textured Monk says above - thanks for all your contributions here (and of course, to the game!) Are you able to share anything about where you're going? Are you staying in the (mobile?) gaming industry?
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Congrats and good luck on the new job, man. I know we give aspects of the game a hard time here but I've always appreciated you talking to us about what you can and the art we've gotten. I know I'm not the only one, either.

I hope the move and job work out for you.
Raging Spaniard Best of luck with the move fella, and yeah... echoing what Textured Monk says above - thanks for all your contributions here (and of course, to the game!) Are you able to share anything about where you're going? Are you staying in the (mobile?) gaming industry?

Thank you guys! You enabled me to go in-depth once it became clear my posts here wouldnt leak to reddit (not that I shared anything outlandish anyways) Interacting with the community in a meaningful role was just one of the awesome opportunities EA gave me.

I'll be staying in mobile yeah, that seems very much my lane by now. I'll be an Art Director for Scopely in their new Barcelona studio. My game wont be a SWGOH competitor but I could be moved to one in the future, you never know
 

Frostinferno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,496
Hey fellas, quick heads up. Friday was my last day at EA! Im taking a gamble on a crazy new opportunity in Spain so, while leaving SWGOH really hurts cause I love the team and what we were doing (Mando content being just a sample of what were up to) it was too good a chance to ignore, I'll be returning home after more than twenty years away. I'll get my tag fixed when I start next week

I'll still play the game as I have been though, its a good one.

Thanks for all your work and wish you all the best.
 

polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
So, the new Conquest game mode has released and I figured this was as good a time as any to see if any others are still playing? I'd been toying with the idea of quitting for a while, but Conquest actually seems like a lot of fun so far. I'm thinking that once things get harder it may start to lose its lustre, but so far so good. There's some really solid ideas in here regarding the game design which makes me feel a little more confident in the game's future after what I've felt are a series of missteps (challenge pit and galactic challenges.) The currency cap and the way data disks and consumables reset per event gives it a kind of roguelike feel with a lot of potential in the future, without the developers having to worry that once people collect the best stuff the mode is trivialised forever.

Is anybody else still plugging away?
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
So, the new Conquest game mode has released and I figured this was as good a time as any to see if any others are still playing? I'd been toying with the idea of quitting for a while, but Conquest actually seems like a lot of fun so far. I'm thinking that once things get harder it may start to lose its lustre, but so far so good. There's some really solid ideas in here regarding the game design which makes me feel a little more confident in the game's future after what I've felt are a series of missteps (challenge pit and galactic challenges.) The currency cap and the way data disks and consumables reset per event gives it a kind of roguelike feel with a lot of potential in the future, without the developers having to worry that once people collect the best stuff the mode is trivialised forever.

Is anybody else still plugging away?

Yeah Im still playing, then again Im not on the ERA guild. Conquest was a big priority dev wise so Im glad it turned out good, there was a lot of long term thought put into it and tech wise it should enable for the next features after it to be more fun to play.

Plus, Im like a month away from Grand master Luke soooo
 

polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
Yeah Im still playing, then again Im not on the ERA guild. Conquest was a big priority dev wise so Im glad it turned out good, there was a lot of long term thought put into it and tech wise it should enable for the next features after it to be more fun to play.

Plus, Im like a month away from Grand master Luke soooo

Oh hey Raging Spaniard! How's life (and the new job) treating you in the motherland? Hope you're well!

Yeah, I think all that effort has paid off. I still have some constructive criticism (need to be able to see counters for feats in game, and some feats become harder to complete as you get stronger which feels a little counter intuitive, etc) but there's a really solid foundation here. Just playing through the first couple of sectors I must have used 15 different squads, some of which I haven't used in months. Combining data disks together has the potential for making some completely OTT interactions too and that is just a lot of fun, to be honest. I'm looking forward to working through the rest of the normal mode, but I'm already scared about how tough hard mode is going to be haha.
 

XaviConcept

Art Director for Videogames
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,914
Oh hey Raging Spaniard! How's life (and the new job) treating you in the motherland? Hope you're well!

Yeah, I think all that effort has paid off. I still have some constructive criticism (need to be able to see counters for feats in game, and some feats become harder to complete as you get stronger which feels a little counter intuitive, etc) but there's a really solid foundation here. Just playing through the first couple of sectors I must have used 15 different squads, some of which I haven't used in months. Combining data disks together has the potential for making some completely OTT interactions too and that is just a lot of fun, to be honest. I'm looking forward to working through the rest of the normal mode, but I'm already scared about how tough hard mode is going to be haha.
Well you know how it goes, ppl want hard mode then they get it then they complain cause they want "good" difficulty, then they get over it, etc, its a cycle

I havent asked around CG lately but I hope the team moves into the 2nd year of Covid well enough. A bunch of artists moved to WFH permanently and both Garret and I have left so they have lost a good deal of production people on the 2D sde (although hopefully they hired new talent). Theres a ton of cool shit for them to make and a lot of new potential content so Im not worried, but the game is also on a new content roadmap that I wasnt around for, so Im in the dark as well! (then again I could send a couple of texts and be caught up, haha)

New job has been really good and the move went very well. Granted, due to the virus it doesnt feel like we are "truly" here yet but I think everyone feels that way. Regardless, its been a clear lifestyle upgrade so were pretty happy. Working on a game that has a ton of challenges an its been pretty rewarding.
 

polynomial

Member
Oct 29, 2017
294
Well you know how it goes, ppl want hard mode then they get it then they complain cause they want "good" difficulty, then they get over it, etc, its a cycle

It's the age old Goldilocks thing isn't it. Content difficulty has to be just right - not too easy not too hard - but you need to somehow make that true for every player in the game simultaneously. Not something I'm particularly envious of, but I've seen some interesting takes on this in other games in the past year or two and it'll be interesting if SWGoH ever gives any of those techniques a try.

I havent asked around CG lately but I hope the team moves into the 2nd year of Covid well enough. A bunch of artists moved to WFH permanently and both Garret and I have left so they have lost a good deal of production people on the 2D sde (although hopefully they hired new talent). Theres a ton of cool shit for them to make and a lot of new potential content so Im not worried, but the game is also on a new content roadmap that I wasnt around for, so Im in the dark as well! (then again I could send a couple of texts and be caught up, haha)

New job has been really good and the move went very well. Granted, due to the virus it doesnt feel like we are "truly" here yet but I think everyone feels that way. Regardless, its been a clear lifestyle upgrade so were pretty happy. Working on a game that has a ton of challenges an its been pretty rewarding.

Good stuff, but yeah covid is making everything feel disjointed still. Hopefully we're coming up on the light at the end of the tunnel now and things will settle down soon. Also feel free to send those texts and then leak all the info here, we won't tell anyone! Agreed though, the Star Wars universe is in a pretty exciting place for a hero collector game. There was no real shortage of content to draw on already, but with all the new Disney+ shows on the horizon we're going to be drowning in it.
 

Therion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,110
I've been enjoying conquest, but I'm still early enough (3-4 battles into sector 2) that every battle is a guaranteed win, so it's hard to tell how it will feel in the long run. I'm prepared for hard mode to be pretty brutal from the beginning, but I think a lot of people are going to regret locking into it in a couple weeks. Hard mode progress is probably going to cap a lot earlier than they expect.
 

Textured Monk

Member
Oct 27, 2017
170
I've been enjoying conquest, but I'm still early enough (3-4 battles into sector 2) that every battle is a guaranteed win, so it's hard to tell how it will feel in the long run. I'm prepared for hard mode to be pretty brutal from the beginning, but I think a lot of people are going to regret locking into it in a couple weeks. Hard mode progress is probably going to cap a lot earlier than they expect.

This is pretty much how I feel. I might give it a run during the second exhibition round, but I don't know that I'll make it too far into hard. The last two normal sectors ending in GLs could be tough since I don't have any, but I'll reserve judgement until I get there - some decent data disks might help.

I am liking the rogue-like elements and getting to use B and C teams with a boost (which will probably fall off hard in Hard), so I'd even be happy doing normal regularly with Hard mode being a long-term goal - as long as the rewards are decent enough to keep pushing along and making progress, it should be fun.

The UI needs a little work and I'd personally prefer a little quicker energy recharge, but overall it definitely seems like a win.