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Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
The idea that Luke and Leia would train to fight with lightsabers, let alone real ones, against one another, is so dumb.

Luke should have been essentially done with the Jedi/force/lightsaber after RotJ. He threw the saber away to save his father, that should have signalled the end of it.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
The idea that Luke and Leia would train to fight with lightsabers, let alone real ones, against one another, is so dumb.

Luke should have been essentially done with the Jedi/force/lightsaber after RotJ. He threw the saber away to save his father, that should have signalled the end of it.
Luke throwing his lightsaber wasn't a declaration that he was done with the jedi. It was a declaration that he IS a jedi and thus won't outright kill his father and turn to the darkside. Like....the film literally ends with him staring at force ghosts why would he be done with the jedi and force?
 
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Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Luke should have been essentially done with the Jedi/force/lightsaber after RotJ.
...what?

WqBsQuJ.gif
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,711
The idea that Luke and Leia would train to fight with lightsabers, let alone real ones, against one another, is so dumb.

Luke should have been essentially done with the Jedi/force/lightsaber after RotJ. He threw the saber away to save his father, that should have signalled the end of it.
Uh you do know what ROTJ stands for, it's not Removal of the Jedi. The climax has Luke outright stating he's a jedi. Throwing away the saber was what made him a true jedi, it's the payoff of Yoda's teachings(only defense, never attack) and his personal growth. Luke ends as the biggest Jedi that ever Jedi'd.
 

matrix-cat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,284
The real problem with that flashback scene is that they didn't make Flashback Luke do the Luke thing. Y'know, the double-handed grip, lightsabre way out in front of him, back foot way out behind; classic Luke. He does it in The Last Jedi and you're like YOOO that's my boiiii, but here Flashback Luke just does a bunch of Prequel Jedi twirly-whirls that don't read as Luke at all. This movie has the weirdest approach to fanservice, jamming it in in eye-rolling ways but then totally missing the no-brainer moments.

Also Kylo never does one of his signature drama bitch foot-stomp sabre hunches:

4WXOB9M.gif


4s83ysn.gif


What I'm saying is that this movie is a 0/10, literally the worst movie ever made.
 
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OP
OP
DiipuSurotu

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Luke should have been essentially done with the Jedi/force/lightsaber after RotJ. He threw the saber away to save his father, that should have signalled the end of it.
When Luke joins the Endor celebrations he has his lightsaber on his belt. He didn't abandon it on the Death Star.

Plus he literally gives his father a Jedi funeral.
 

HotHamBoy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
16,423
A lot of this art serves as a reminder, at least for me, of how cool a Supreme Leader Kylo Ren could have been as a main bad guy after the events of TLJ.

I wanted it so bad, and I feel like we got robbed of it.
They bitched out on every potentially interesting idea, even with the watered-down version of ideas like Chewbacca's role.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
This is by far the biggest missed opportunity:

EOemkM1UUAAcj1z



But nah Kylo never even sees his father's oldest companion in person

When I left RoS I was satisfied enough, but the more time passes and the more that comes out makes it incredibly obvious what a wasted opportunity it was, and there's no real way to fix it outside of personal mental gymnastics.
 

DixieDean82

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,837
Click on the tweet for a cool thread which explains the 'art of' SW books and why lots of ideas don't make it beyond the concept stage.

 

greengr

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,707
The real problem with that flashback scene is that they didn't make Flashback Luke do the Luke thing. Y'know, the double-handed grip, lightsabre way out in front of him, back foot way out behind; classic Luke. He does it in The Last Jedi and you're like YOOO that's my boiiii, but here Flashback Luke just does a bunch of Prequel Jedi twirly-whirls that don't read as Luke at all. This movie has the weirdest approach to fanservice, jamming it in in eye-rolling ways but then totally missing the no-brainer moments.

Also Kylo never does one of his signature drama bitch foot-stomp sabre hunches:

4WXOB9M.gif


4s83ysn.gif


What I'm saying is that this movie is a 0/10, literally the worst movie ever made.
cant believe they missed that very obvious callback and they had literally the perfect opportunity to do that in TROS :(
 

greengr

Member
Dec 3, 2018
2,707
Let me just say that,people justifiably bitch about the sequel trilogy but the alternative was sexy Sith Twilek seducing Solos son and Luke had basically the same fate in Lucas early episode 7 draft,lets not kid ourselves things wouldnt be better.Now Lucafilm has a blank canvas,lets hope they wont fuck it up.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Let me just say that,people justifiably bitch about the sequel trilogy but the alternative was sexy Sith Twilek seducing Solos son and Luke had basically the same fate in Lucas early episode 7 draft,lets not kid ourselves things wouldnt be better.Now Lucafilm has a blank canvas,lets hope they wont fuck it up.

This would have been, at the very least, more interesting than TFA.
 

SlumberingGiant

alt account
Banned
Jul 2, 2019
1,389
Let me just say that,people justifiably bitch about the sequel trilogy but the alternative was sexy Sith Twilek seducing Solos son and Luke had basically the same fate in Lucas early episode 7 draft,lets not kid ourselves things wouldnt be better.Now Lucafilm has a blank canvas,lets hope they wont fuck it up.
I...I'll take it.
 
Nov 1, 2017
8,061
I absolutely love that artwork and wish a lot of it had shown up. The Star Destroyers would have been a much better version than the upscaled original SD used for the Sith fleet.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
SW already had sexism enough problems.

It would come down to how she's written. I could absolutely see Han Solo's dumb son being tempted by a (literally) seductive Sith lady. The dark side is supposed to be about passion, but we've never seen it in a sexual context because the franchise is so kid friendly.

I think Arndt has the writing chops to pull it off without it having just been about "hot red Twilek fanservice". Of course, the comics certainly never went beyond that with her!
 
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Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
Let me just say that,people justifiably bitch about the sequel trilogy but the alternative was sexy Sith Twilek seducing Solos son and Luke had basically the same fate in Lucas early episode 7 draft,lets not kid ourselves things wouldnt be better.Now Lucafilm has a blank canvas,lets hope they wont fuck it up.

A woman seducing a man, being the "top" as it were, would be fascinating - especially in terms of Sith power dynamics. It would be wholly unique to Palpatine, too. He seduces you with power, but she'd seduce you with your penis. Both would probably be equally effective but a seductress would be more emotionally manipulative too because a man who is hopelessly in love with you will do anything to make you happy.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
It would come down to how she's written. I could absolutely see Han Solo's dumb son being tempted by a (literally) seductive Sith lady. The dark side is supposed to be about passion, but we've never seen it in a seuxal context because the franchise is so kid friendly.

I think Arndt has the writing chops to pull it off without it having just been about "hot red Twilek fanservice". Of course, the comics certainly never went beyond that with her!
A woman seducing a man, being the "top" as it were, would be fascinating - especially in terms of Sith power dynamics.
There are so so many examples of women in media who are portrayed as evil as they simultaneously seduce men. Tying the act of seduction itself to being evil, which inadvertently promotes the idea that a sexually active woman is inherently bad and/or misleading. Like given the amount of examples you can find I can't see how such a common and boring idea is in anyway fascinating let alone a good message for children. It was always poorly done in SW. Hell, even RECENTLY. This character was pure cringe:
1*kHu-5IyMIf7wL3nF8sZrfg.png
 
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Oct 25, 2017
10,326
Having a sex positive villain would be far more interesting of an exploration of the Dark Side ethos. Most recent to kind is Yennifer from the Witcher. Seduction and outward beauty as a tool for the character is not mutually exclusive to a feminist character.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
How about, not just create another example of a really misogynistic trope in media.

The way that it has been used in the past may have been misogynistic; there is potential that it could have ended up misogynistic; the concept itself need not be misogynistic.

For example, the whole "hot Twilek sex slave" thing rampant in the fandom does have weird misogynistic impulses behind it, but that doesn't mean that the concept can't be salvaged. The novel Lords of the Sith delved into it to show how the Empire was abusing these women, and how Cham Syndulla's rebellion was trying to help them. You can be nuanced about these subjects! You don't have to treat everything so simply or be afraid to handle them because they've been mishandled before!

Hell, if Palpatine or some other chessmaster is behind it, you could have Talon turn it around and join the heroes and reclaim her sexuality for herself. Her sexuality previously then would have indeed been used misogynistically by the villains and part of her arc would be overcoming her enslavement to the Sith and affirmation of her own agency.

Now would that be the direction they'd go? No idea. Probably not. Dropping Talon was a safe choice, and in her place was got Not Palpatine and...Papatine. But my point was that it could have been a more interesting avenue to pursue, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

In general I wish Star Wars would be allowed to grow up and deal with sexuality. Especially with Jedi. There's so much you can do with how the Jedi's weird "you can touch, but don't love" policy would have messed with Anakin's head as a repressed teen, but they'll never explore it.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
The way that it has been used in the past may have been misogynistic; there is potential that it could have ended up misogynistic; the concept itself need not be misogynistic.
The concept itself is misogynistic as it was inspired by misogynistic ideas about women...

For example, the whole "hot Twilek sex slave" thing rampant in the fandom does have weird misogynistic impulses behind it, but that doesn't mean that the concept can't be salvaged. The novel Lords of the Sith delved into it to show how the Empire was abusing these women, and how Cham Syndulla's rebellion was trying to help them. You can be nuanced about these subjects! You don't have to treat everything so simply or be afraid to handle them because they've been mishandled before!
Literally what evidence do we have that they'd suddenly know how to handle a misogynistic trope. They couldn't even stick the landing when attempting to be overtly feminist....
Hell, if Palpatine or some other chessmaster is behind it, you could have Talon turn it around and join the heroes and reclaim her sexuality for herself. Her sexuality previously then would have indeed been used misogynistically by the villains and part of her arc would be overcoming her enslavement to the Sith and affirmation of her own agency.

Now would that be the direction they'd go? No idea. Probably not. Dropping Talon was a safe choice, and in her place was got Not Palpatine and...Papatine. But my point was that it could have been a more interesting avenue to pursue, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
It's really not that interesting. Especially in the context of SW which very frequently sexualized women.
In general I wish Star Wars would be allowed to grow up and deal with sexuality. Especially with Jedi.
It already has without resorting to misogynistic tropes.
856ee8fd16e1fc0ef1af76b920928e40.gif


TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery.

"Look at how sexy this alien chick who is yet another example of a sexualized woman in media but we'll like, totally subvert that" is the laziest route possible.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The concept itself is misogynistic as it was inspired by misogynistic ideas about women...

You can take a subject and subvert it, modify it, transform it, change it for the better. It may take intelligence to do that, but that's fine. If a writer can't pull it off, then don't do it.

Literally what evidence do we have that they'd suddenly know how to handle a misogynistic trope.

None, and I didn't claim there's any evidence. I said it's plausible that you can do the concept justice and I think Arndt has the ability to do it.

It's really not that interesting.

Cool, I respect your opinion. I found Snoke and Palpatine "not that interesting" and would rather have seen something else.

It already has without resorting to misogynistic tropes.
856ee8fd16e1fc0ef1af76b920928e40.gif


TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery.

And I'm happy that Rian did that. That doesn't really change anything. It just makes me want to see them push further.

"Look at how sexy this alien chick who is yet another example of a sexualized woman in media but we'll like, totally subvert that" is the laziest route possible.

I mean, your conception of it seems to be.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
You can take a subject and subvert it, modify it, transform it, change it for the better. It may take intelligence to do that, but that's fine. If a writer can't pull it off, then don't do it.
The writers behind SW have literally shown recently that they can't do it.

None, and I didn't claim there's any evidence. I said it's plausible that you can do the concept justice and I thin Arndt has the ability to do it.
It's really not plausible given the literal evidence in 2019 that they handle the trope poorly.

Cool, I respect your opinion. I found Snoke and Palpatine "not that interesting" and would rather have seen something else.
Snoke had a purpose, Palpatine did not. I don't defend Palpatine's inclusion in TROS as a gotcha villain who's behind everything. Kylo should've been the main villain of the trilogy as he has the most direct connection to the cast, not Palpatine.

And I'm happy that Rian did that. That doesn't really change anything.
It actually does, as it hasn't been done before in SW.

I mean, your conception of it seems to be.
Your conception of it aligns with many many poor examples of "women written as reclaiming their sexuality, as written by men." You essentially pitched Sucker Punch:SW Edition.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
It's a shame we didn't get that rumoured zero gravity lightsaber battle in space this trilogy, think the Inception hallway fight but with lightsabers.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
The writers behind SW have literally shown recently that they can't do it.

I'm talking about Michael Arndt, who was attached to that version.

Snoke had a purpose, Palpatine did not. I don't defend Palpatine's inclusion in TROS as a gotcha villain who's behind everything.

I'm going to be honest - I'm not going to bother going further on that. We have been on opposite sides of the Snoke issue for years, and that's not going to change. I have no interest in being drowned in your gifs!

It actually does, as it hasn't been done before in SW.

It doesn't change anything about my argument.

Your conception of it aligns with many many poor examples of "women written as reclaiming their sexuality, as written by men." You essentially pitched Sucker Punch:SW Edition.

So do better. Maybe ask some women! You know, people who aren't you and me! And if they veto it, fine. Or if they like it or want to work on it, fine.

Let me ask you, how do you feel about Asajj Ventress?
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
The concept itself is misogynistic as it was inspired by misogynistic ideas about women...


Literally what evidence do we have that they'd suddenly know how to handle a misogynistic trope. They couldn't even stick the landing when attempting to be overtly feminist....

It's really not that interesting. Especially in the context of SW which very frequently sexualized women.

It already has without resorting to misogynistic tropes.
856ee8fd16e1fc0ef1af76b920928e40.gif


TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery.

"Look at how sexy this alien chick who is yet another example of a sexualized woman in media but we'll like, totally subvert that" is the laziest route possible.
Did you really just post Reylo? And your talking about misogyny, talking about missing the forest for the tree.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
I'm talking about Michael Arndt, who was attached to that version.
What version? There wasn't a Darth Caedus version of TFA or a version where Kylo was evil because he got seduced by a woman.


Did you really just post Reylo?
Acknowledging that TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery from Rey's perspective=/=supporting Reylo. Especially when the film itself closes the door on the idea and ends with Rey outright rejecting Kylo.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
What version? There wasn't a Jacen Solo--->Darth Caedus version of TFA.



Acknowledging that TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery from Rey's perspective=/=supporting Reylo.
Your using is as positive argument of Star wars exploring sexuality, you know between that of the genocidal father killer and the MC. That's about as sexist as what your arguing against here, so the fact you don't "support" Reylo doesn't really matter at all.

Why on earth does there need to be sexual tension between the female MC and the genocial neo-nazi and why are you talking about it in a positive manner.
 

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
What version? There wasn't a Jacen Solo--->Darth Caedus version of TFA.

If George and Arndt had already ditched Talon by the time they got to the script stage, then they must have judged that they couldn't do the character properly, in which case the argument is rather pointless (but I still maintain that such a character could have been done properly in the right hands).
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
Acknowledging that TLJ is full of sexual awakening imagery from Rey's perspective=/=supporting Reylo. Especially when the film itself closes the door on the idea and ends with Rey outright rejecting Kylo.
She does close the door on Kylo at the end but I don't think Rian meant to literally close the door on Reylo for good, especially when you hear him talk about it.

 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
She does close the door on Kylo at the end but I don't think Rian meant to literally close the door on Reylo for good, especially when you hear him talk about it.
He certainly proposed the idea in the film but she shuts the door on it. It's pretty definitive as an ending to any chance of their hostility ending. Hell even TROS treats Ben Solo and Kylo as two entirely different people, the latter getting violently killed by Rey and the former sacrificing himself for Rey.
 

Halbrand

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,615
He certainly proposed the idea in the film but she shuts the door on it. It's pretty definitive as an ending to any chance of their hostility ending.
He certainly didn't seem to think that Ben and Rey having feelings for each other or a relationship was inherently a bad thing, and we know we was also very open to the idea of Ben being redeemed. I wouldn't doubt that he also would have redeemed Ben and followed up on Reylo, the latter just making sense if you're going to redeem him.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
He certainly didn't seem to think that Ben and Rey having feelings for each other or a relationship was inherently a bad thing, and we know we was also very open to the idea of Ben being redeemed. I wouldn't doubt that he also would have redeemed Ben and followed up on Reylo, the latter just making sense if you're going to redeem him.
Rey and Ben. But not Rey and Kylo. Ben Solo doesn't appear in TLJ.