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Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,380
Watching TNG again as I haven't been through it in several years. So why not?

So, in this episode, they discover that if they have the DNA record of someone, they can use the transporter to essentially restore a person to their prior state. Did they just discover immortality and no one bats an eye? Like "Hey, no matter what happens to you, we can just restore you to a prior state. So make sure you save a record of yourself every so often and then you can just live forever!"

Yeah, so this is kind of just an extension on the philosophy behind transporters in general (https://existentialcomics.com/comic/1) so I guess we can go there if you want. But let's, for the sake argument, say that we are past that point and accept transporters. Is everyone immortal now?
 

Tanerian

Member
Feb 24, 2018
1,380
Yeah seems that way. Though is making a copy of yourself actually immortality? It's certainly immortality of your genetic code, but technically you are still dying, and there will be gaps int he memory etc.

They can also use Transporters to make perfect clones apparently too ala Second Chances.

Transporter shenanigans are janky af.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
They're all overly noble and would turn down immortality since it interferes with what they perceive to be the natural order. Star Trek has a lot of old world morality for being two hundred years in the future.

So I'm sure they realize this and just shrug it off as something they will never consider again for... reasons.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Nah, they describe the process as using a copy of her DNA to "filter out" genetic changes. They're doing the equivalent of removing a retrovirus that's causing rapid aging as a symptom, not de-aging her.
 

SeeingeyeDug

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,004
Isn't that how the replicators work as well? Completed Food recipes are stored in the smaller transporter buffer and pasted out as ordered.

It does open up incredible cloning they could do with the transporter. I think it has to be a morality rule that prevents it from happening. Or else situations like 2 Rikers would have happened more often.
 

Kurdel

Member
Nov 7, 2017
12,157
next thing ypu know you have space ghost fish coming out thst teleporter, stop playing with it!
 

RagnarokX

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,791
Well technically it's cloning. We are our physical bodies and there's no soul to transfer between bodies. Transporters destroy a body and create an identical one somewhere else right down to the memories.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Well technically it's cloning. We are our physical bodies and there's no soul to transfer between bodies. Transporters destroy a body and create an identical one somewhere else right down to the memories.
And this happens every single time a ST character transports? So Picard and co are just cool with no longer existing as long as a doppelganger does?
 
OP
OP
Metalmucil

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,380
Nah, they describe the process as using a copy of her DNA to "filter out" genetic changes. They're doing the equivalent of removing a retrovirus that's causing rapid aging as a symptom, not de-aging her.
But wouldn't she just have remained old then, but stopped aging further? They are de-aging her. (Again, this is all fun conjecture!)
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
But wouldn't she just have remained old then, but stopped aging further? They are de-aging her. (Again, this is all fun conjecture!)
Nah, because it wasn't actual age, it was just some symptom that the bio-filters did their job on and filtered at.

When all the future tech is a handwave, we gotta take the characters at their word.
 

Tanerian

Member
Feb 24, 2018
1,380
And this happens every single time a ST character transports? So Picard and co are just cool with no longer existing as long as a doppelganger does?

Why would they, they are an exact clone of the moment they transported. The new clone, as far as they are concerned, is the same person that just teleported. They've done it thousands of times.

Though technically their matter is beamed across the distance or whatever, I believe. Bones doesn't trust it though !
 

AnotherNils

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,936
It's a cautionary tale about using the transporter to solve problems as a writer

I mean they needed a hair follicle for DNA even though I'm sure that'd be in her medical file (or her previous transporter history)

Awful episode.

Also whatever happens or those kids? With their luck they had greatly expanded life spans to enjoy their lifelong isolation in
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Why would they, they are an exact clone of the moment they transported. The new clone, as far as they are concerned, is the same person that just teleported. They've done it thousands of times.

Though technically their matter is beamed across the distance or whatever, I believe. Bones doesn't trust it though !
That would be fine and all if you didn't believe in a God or a soul. Problem, is many do including most of the Bajorans and Klingons and they still teleport.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Why would they, they are an exact clone of the moment they transported. The new clone, as far as they are concerned, is the same person that just teleported. They've done it thousands of times.

Though technically their matter is beamed across the distance or whatever, I believe. Bones doesn't trust it though !
I don't think it's intended in the Star Trek universe that the transported person is a copy, it's supposed to be the original person I think. There's even that episode where Barclay is freaking out about his transporter fears and they reassure him that he'll be fine on the other side. Did they lie to Barclay?!
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
My personal feeling is that you die every single time you use a transporter.
I seriously don't think they'd use it so casually if this were the case, or more characters would take issue with it or at the very least look hesitant about using it. It may be the future but they're still human, damnit.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
I don't think it's intended in the Star Trek universe that the transported person is a copy, it's supposed to be the original person I think. There's even that episode where Barclay is freaking out about his transporter fears and they reassure him that he'll be fine on the other side. Did they lie to Barclay?!
Well if we follow this logic, it would be similar to knowing what happens when you die. It's philosophical or spiritual debate. Essentially, for all we know there are 100s of Picards in heaven right now, and the Picard alive at the present would have no clue. So they wouldn't have lied, they just wouldn't know or keep things strictly scientific.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,055
I seriously don't think they'd use it so casually if this were the case, or more characters would take issue with it or at the very least look hesitant about using it. It may be the future but they're still human, damnit.
Well, obviously, everyone who would object to this has already died upon being transported and the clones don't know what happened, so they're fine with it.
 

Lump

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,037
I'm still convinced that the severing of consciousness from a transporter results in every transporter killing the original and putting an exact copy on the exit that doesn't know any better. I don't trust transporters.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Well, obviously, everyone who would object to this has already tied upon being transported and the clones don't know what happened, so they're fine with it.
Well if we follow this logic, it would be similar to knowing what happens when you die. It's philosophical or spiritual debate. Essentially, for all we know there are 100s of Picards in heaven right now, and the Picard alive at the present would have no clue. So they wouldn't have lied, they just wouldn't know or keep things strictly scientific.
I'm sorry but I don't buy this. The nature of the technology would allow them to know what happens. The cessation of consciousness would logistically be pretty clear cut if an entirely new person were being created due to how transporting worked. The scientists and engineers literally couldn't keep people in the dark about this due to it being a pretty accessible and understood technology.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,055
I'm sincerely glad to know that there's an entire camp of Star Trek fans who also think that the characters in the show murder themselves on a regular basis.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Logically a teleporter WOULD murder you and spit out a new you with no noticeable difference, I just don't think the Star Trek ones work that way based on the characters' acceptance that this is a moral technology to utilize on a daily basis. It really doesn't seem to jive with the philosophy of Star Trek in general for whatever reason.
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
I'm still convinced that the severing of consciousness from a transporter results in every transporter killing the original and putting an exact copy on the exit that doesn't know any better. I don't trust transporters.

Same here. The more I used to think about the concept the less attractive it becomes.

Shit, even in Iain M Banks Culture they don't have transporters - the closest they get is displacement where a small local wormhole is generated and that's how you get moved from place to place, and even then lots of people, Drones and Minds don't trust it...especially when it's a snap displacement into a ship travelling FTL...
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Logically a teleporter WOULD murder you and spit out a new you with no noticeable difference, I just don't think the Star Trek ones work that way based on the characters' acceptance that this is a moral technology to utilize on a daily basis. It really doesn't seem to jive with the philosophy of Star Trek in general for whatever reason.
well this is true. If it wasn't there would be religious zealots and the like against it and there aren't. In the ST world every person accepts that they don't actually die.
 

Penny Royal

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,158
QLD, Australia
Just look at this shit:

www.liveabout.com

TV Shows

In this Golden Age of TV, it seems there are endless shows to choose from. Read reviews and top selections from every genre to help you decide what to binge on next.

No thanks, I'll take a shuttle.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
well this is true. If it wasn't there would be religious zealots and the like against it and there aren't. In the ST world every person accepts that they don't actually die.
I don't know if you have to be a religious zealot to be against the instantaneous dissolution of your own existence, even if philosophically there is no difference between me and the guy who takes my place...
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
I don't know if you have to be a religious zealot to be against the instantaneous dissolution of your own existence, even if philosophically there is no difference between me and the guy who takes my place...
Well I was thinking more that they would be "viewed that way" if everybody else just accepts it. But we don't even see any examples of the extreme ends, not a single person seems to question it as far as we know, well maybe the odd Barkley here and there.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,055
Okay, how about this. You take a DNA record of yourself as a child. You then proceed to fuck it up however you inevitably do. Then, having logged however you have screwed up, you proceed to restore the previous record of yourself and provide them with the log, so that they can now learn from how stupid you are. They then take another DNA record and proceed to log their own unique fuckups, and so the cycle continues.
 
OP
OP
Metalmucil

Metalmucil

Member
Aug 17, 2019
1,380
I don't think it's intended in the Star Trek universe that the transported person is a copy, it's supposed to be the original person I think. There's even that episode where Barclay is freaking out about his transporter fears and they reassure him that he'll be fine on the other side. Did they lie to Barclay?!
Of course they lied to Barclay. It's Barclay.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Well I was thinking more that they would be "viewed that way" if everybody else just accepts it. But we don't even see any examples of the extreme ends, not a single person seems to question it as far as we know, well maybe the odd Barkley here and there.
Precisely, it would be made a bigger deal far more often. The amount of times they also beam non-service member personnel aboard, those who have not signed waivers that it's okay to murder them with a dissolving beam from the sky, really makes the whole ritual seem as safe and casual as possible.
 

Tanerian

Member
Feb 24, 2018
1,380
I don't think it's intended in the Star Trek universe that the transported person is a copy, it's supposed to be the original person I think. There's even that episode where Barclay is freaking out about his transporter fears and they reassure him that he'll be fine on the other side. Did they lie to Barclay?!
It's supposed to be the same person.. Their matter is transported and all of that.

But Bones doesn't trust it. And when you can see it create a perfect clone of someone ala Riker.. it's hard to swallow =p

Could just be a control+C, Delete, Control+V
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,764
While people in Star Trek don't have "souls", they do have "neural energy" which is their brain pattern, or their consciousness. A persons physical body doesn't take up much computer storage and is apparently not much more complex than a holodeck character, as we learned in the DS9 episode Our Man Bashir:

EDDINGTON: The holosuite is specifically designed to store highly complex energy patterns. The computer's processing their physical patterns as if they were holosuite characters. Trouble is, I'm not reading any neural energy.
ROM: Neural energy has to be stored at the quantum level. The holosuite can't handle that.
ODO: So if their physical bodies are stored here, where are their brain patterns?
QUARK: Everywhere else. Their brain patterns are so large that they're taking up every bit of computer memory on the station. Replicator memory, weapons, life supports.


Neural energy is elaborated on in the TNG episode Times Arrow pt. 2:

CRUSHER: The cerebellum, the cerebral cortex, the brain stem, the entire nervous system has been depleted of electrochemical energy. Here's another one. Same neural depletion. These people did not die of cholera. They died because their neural energy was drained somehow.


Now in terms of matter transportation a physical body and its electrochemical energy should be no different, but apparently they do separate them. The neural energy seems to be the most important part to keep the persons consciousness intact

In TNG's The Lonely Among Us Picard was inhabited by an energy being and both the being and Picard transported off the ship, keeping Picard in a pure energy state. Afterwards the being left Picard and the following happened:


TROI: Commander, wait! It's the Captain. But only the Captain. He's out there alone!
RIKER: The entity, has it abandoned him?
TROI: No, but the combination wasn't possible out there. He's in trouble, sir. We have to beam him back.
RIKER: Beam him back as what? He's nothing but energy now.
...........

DATA: I knew we had to have the Captain's physical pattern here, sir. He was the last one to beam out.
RIKER: Is what you're thinking possible?
DATA: Unknown at this time, sir. I hope the Captain remembers his physical pattern is here. If he has, his energy has moved into the transporter relays by now.
RIKER: I wish we had some sign that he's in here. I guess we have no choice but to risk it.
DATA: Energising, sir.
(Slowly, Picard materialises on the platform)
PICARD: What the devil am I doing here?
RIKER: Sounds like our Captain.
TROI: But confused. This Picard pattern was formed before he went out there.
PICARD: What's happening to me, Number One? I was preparing to beam out to somewhere. And I remember there was talk of an entity? But it all seems so vague.
DATA: I believe the Captain is now his separate self, sir. Much of what happened is naturally missing.



So in this instance Picards physical pattern was still stored in the computer just hunky dory, but what I can only presume was his neural energy was kicking about on its own and was reformed with his body. The neural energy is what's key, otherwise you just get a slab of dead meat.

It's also worth pointing out that we've seen someone get transported from their own perspective when Barclay was transported in the TNG episode Realm of Fear. I couldn't find a full video of it, but we see a bit of it in this video at 5:23:



From Barclay's perspective it was a continuous process with no moment of unconsciousness.

Then there's ENT's Daedalus where the subject of transporter copies was directly addressed, this is from the father of the transporter:


EMORY: All breakthroughs are hard to imagine before they happen. When I developed the transporter, most people simply couldn't grasp it. Some still can't.
ARCHER: I have to confess, given a choice, I'd much rather use a good old-fashioned shuttlepod.
EMORY: I'll never forget the protests when the transporter was first approved for bio-matter.
DANICA: Oh, God. Here we go.
EMORY: People said it was unsafe, that it caused brain cancer, psychosis, and even sleep disorders. And then there was all that metaphysical chatter about whether or not the person who arrived after the transport was the same person who left, and not some weird copy.
TUCKER: Which would make all of us copies.
EMORY: I had to fight all of that nonsense, and I'm not going to tell you there weren't costs. I'm living proof of that, but I won. Mankind is better off. Makes everything I've fought for worthwhile.



So it seems to be accepted that the transporter does not create copies, but in some outlier circumstances duplicates can be made. Thomas Riker was only made because there was a unique storm that was able to keep the second transporter pattern stable and cause it to rematerialize, as we learn in TNG's Second Chances:


LAFORGE: Apparently there was a massive energy surge in the distortion field around the planet just at the moment you tried to beam out. The Transporter Chief tried to compensate by initiating a second containment beam.
DATA: An interesting approach. He must have been planning to reintegrate the two patterns in the transport buffer.
LAFORGE: Actually, it wasn't really necessary. Commander Riker's pattern maintained its integrity with just the one containment beam. He made it back to the ship just fine.
CRUSHER: What happened to the second beam?
LAFORGE: The Transporter Chief shut it down, but somehow it was reflected back to the surface.
PICARD: And another William Riker materialised there.
RIKER: How was the second pattern able to maintained its integrity?
LAFORGE: The containment beam must have had the exact same phase differential as the distortion field.
RIKER: Which one of them is real?
LAFORGE: That's the thing. Both. You were both materialised from a complete pattern.
CRUSHER: Up until that moment, you were the same person.




And just for the heck of it, here's the dialogue from the TNG episode Unnatural Selection the OP refers to:


PICARD: Now, quickly. If the changes in Doctor Pulaski's DNA were reversed, would it be possible
DATA: It is not reversible, sir. The subtle molecular transposition of
PICARD: Yes, yes, yes. But say if it were undone, would she be normal again?
DATA: As normal as ever, sir.
PICARD: You said that the transporter could be modified to filter out the changes in Doctor Pulaski?
O'BRIEN: Yes, sir, but we were unable to locate her trace pattern.
PICARD: Well, what if we used a sample of her DNA, say from a blood test taken before she was exposed to the disease? Could that be used to filter out the genetic changes?
O'BRIEN: Well, I'd have to get into the biofilter bus to patch in a molecular matrix reader. That's no problem. But the waveform modulator will be overloaded without the regeneration limiter in the first stage circuit.
DATA: Interesting. However, theoretically,
PICARD: Data.
DATA: Yes, sir.
PICARD: Can you do the modifications?
O'BRIEN: I think so, sir.
PICARD: Then make it so.
O'BRIEN: You heard what he said. Let's get those panels off.

[Doctor's office]

RIKER: A blood test, a tissue sample, anything that would have a sample of Doctor Pulaski's original DNA.
DATA: No, sir. Her records were shipped by way of Starfleet headquarters. They have not caught up with us yet.
RIKER: This is ridiculous. A cell, a single cell. Let's check her quarters.

[Pulaski's quarters]

RIKER: Anything. A fingernail, a hair.
DATA: Hair brush.
(Which for some reason she keeps at the back of a clothes drawer)
DATA: It has a follicle, sir. Live cells.

[Bridge]

PICARD: Darwin Station, this is the Enterprise.
PULASKI [on viewscreen]: Go ahead, Captain. I'm here.
PICARD: Doctor, we may have a solution. We have a sample of your normal DNA to use as a filter in the transporter. We think that we can beam you aboard while filtering out any of the genetic problems caused by the disease.
PULASKI [on viewscreen]: Interesting theory, Captain. If it works, we could use the same technique to save Doctor Kingsley and her colleagues.
PICARD: I think you should know, this has never been attempted before.
PULASKI [on viewscreen]: Well, I'll tell you one thing. If I live through this, I'll have a much better understanding of geriatrics.
 
Last edited:

Katsyo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
623
I'm currently re-watching DS9 and yesterday watched the "Our man Bashir" episode where the shuttle carrying several members blows up while they're being transported. They somehow manage to store their transporter patterns to the station's memory core (mind you, physical bodies and neurological patterns separately since their images appear in the James Bond holo story Bashir is running) and I kind had the same thought that if you actually can store your body and your brain in computers wouldn't that allow essentially backing up every important person ever?

Of course the issue is that it takes all the memory on the station's computers and overrides the holo suite stuff but it technically just seems to be matter of storage space.
 

Deleted member 48434

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
5,230
Sydney
Even thought I don't believe in souls or anything, the idea of being broken up and reassembled scares me.
Like, am I even me anymore?
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
Even thought I don't believe in souls or anything, the idea of being broken up and reassembled scares me.
Like, am I even me anymore?
Well, some would even say that waking up every morning is a new instance of you, or even living minute to minute are new momentary instances of you. All I can say for sure is that you don't need to believe in a soul to understand the concept that cessation of consciousness means that consciousness is for all intents and purposes no longer in existence. So yeah, logically your brain being broken down atom by atom would mean that your current stream of consciousness is lost to the cosmos and "you" are not the one that comes out the other end.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
It's interesting this conversation comes up now since ST Picard just introduced another form of immortality, android mind downloads.

Now the real question is, would you rather live forever through teleport cloning or by being an android?
 

Deleted member 48434

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
5,230
Sydney
Well, some would even say that waking up every morning is a new instance of you, or even living minute to minute are new momentary instances of you. All I can say for sure is that you don't need to believe in a soul to understand the concept of cessation of consciousness means that consciousness is for all intents and purpose no longer in existence. So yeah, logically your brain being broken down atom by atom would mean that your current stream of consciousness is lost to the cosmos.
I don't believe in the concept of an inner "me", I think we are just a bunch of neurons and nothing more, but the idea of my consciousness being interrupted like that...
Damn, it is still existentally horrorfying on some sort of instinctual level.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,324
I don't believe in the concept of an inner "me", I think we are just a bunch of neurons and nothing more, but the idea of my consciousness being interrupted like that...
Damn, it is still existentally horrorfying on some sort of instinctual level.
You are you in that you have a sense of identity and can reflect on and are aware of your own conscious experience, but I get what you're saying. Yes, I would also not use a teleporter unless there was good enough reason to sacrifice my self.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,764
It's interesting this conversation comes up now since ST Picard just introduced another form of immortality, android mind downloads.

Now the real question is, would you rather live forever through teleport cloning or by being an android?

Presumably they were able to transfer Picards neural energy to the synth body so in reality the consciousness contained within that body is Picard. Not a copy or anything, but his actual consciousness transferred into the other body to continue on.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,414
Phoenix
Presumably they were able to transfer Picards neural energy to the synth body so in reality the consciousness contained within that body is Picard. Not a copy or anything, but his actual consciousness transferred into the other body to continue on.
Seems likely. But I was thinking more if we accepted that the person remains the same in both ways. Would you rather just continue to reboot yourself from an earlier state via teleport or spend the rest of your days as an android. I guess it's not really that hard of a decision though since they are so human, you can't even tell you are one if you don't know, hence why I would choose to be a synth. Transporting immortality though seems a lot easier and potentially actually immortality since you could die in an explosion or the like and lose the host body as a synth.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Y'all way too worried about discontinuity of consciousness. Discontinuity happens to you every day when you fall asleep! You don't have an existential breakdown in the morning, you go get breakfast. So too with Starfleet.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
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Oct 25, 2017
38,560