Nah, she only aspires to the average evil of the other admirals. She's a wannabe.
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Star Trek Franchise |OT| To Boldly Go.....
- Thread starter Deleted member 3812
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I've started rewatching Discovery S1 with my parents and damn the first few episodes are still really good. I'm starting to wonder if S2 is going to hold up better than my first impressions of it, especially in comparison to Picard
Then again I don't think I'll ever get over them ignoring Mirror Georgiou's crimes. Just a terrible decision that's always going to feel sour
Then again I don't think I'll ever get over them ignoring Mirror Georgiou's crimes. Just a terrible decision that's always going to feel sour
I think I might argue that Admiral Pressman wasn't an Evil Admiral.
The Romulans invented a Cloaking Device and flew into Federation space, blew the shit out of a bunch of Federation installations and killed a bunch of Federation citizens, and then got shot down by Kirk before they could slink back home.
Then the Romulans apparently traded tech with the Klingons, upgrading two powerful Federation enemies. So Kirk and Spock invaded Romulan space and stole a Cloaking Device. Kirk also manages to get his hands on a second Cloaking Device when he captures an entire Klingon ship in movies 3&4.
So the Romulans and Federation sign a peace treaty, in which the Federation promises to never ever touch that stolen Cloaking tech that they saw.
But as Pressman says, that agreement handcuffed the Federation for decades, cutting off a valuable branch of shield technology. And Pressman didn't create a "Cloaking Device" for invisibility, he created a "Phasing Device" to pass through solid matter. And Pressman did it in 2358, in the middle of the Federation-Cardassian War (2347-2366). For reference, the Cardassians shot the shit out of Picard's Stargazer in 2355 when Picard tried to propose an end to the war. A war which the Federation was fighting with one hand tied behind their backs, to try and appease the Romulans (while Federation citizens died).
Plus, from all indications, Pressman didn't get his crew killed. They did that to themselves. They discovered that Pressman was working on a top secret "Cloak" (not a Cloak), so they gasped and grabbed their guns and did a successful mutiny, and while futzing around with a tech they didn't understand, they blew out the ship's plasma relays, creating a fireball in space which made it look like they had blown up, but the Phase was still working properly (they just blew out propulsion), and then they drifted into an asteroid field, and had a badly-timed shutdown/failure of the Phase, materializing them into solid rock, killing them.
And by season 7 of TNG, the Romulans were violating the treaty on a regular basis and generally playing dirty (including season 5 Romulans actually working on a Phasing Cloak of their own, and trying to blow up the Enterprise as thanks for rescuing them). So why shouldn't the Federation leapfrog past "Cloak" into a superior Phasing technology? The Federation was bending over backwards to try and appease the Romulans, and Pressman's claim that the "Phase" wasn't a "Cloak" was more valid than some of the Romulans thin excuses. Sure, the Romulans eventually came around and became the good guys for about a minute before the movies killed them, but that doesn't really make Pressman a bad guy for wanting to press against the edges of the Romulan treaty. Plus, the eventual Romulan peace owes a lot to Sisko and Garak's lies and murder.
No, Pressman was a criminal and a bad guy, it's not up to an admiral (or a captain as he was when the Pegasus was lost) to decide which treaties he follows and which treaties he ignores. He was guilty and ultimately responsible for his crew's death.
And claiming the "phase" wasn't a "cloak" is ridiculous, if the ship was still visible while phased then sure, it's not a cloak but that's not what happened.
I'd argue the worst Admiral is either the one from Insurrection who tried to relocate an entire planetary population to steal their planet, or the one from DS9 who literally tried to take over the Federation in a military coup and very nearly succeeded.
I agree about Pressman not really being evil and that the Romulans were pretty much throwing away the treaty on a regular basis. Based on how they acted in the 2360s there's absolutely no way they weren't mooching around Federation space for most of the 24th Century. The only way they'd have openly revealed themselves in the 2360s is if they'd already done extensive probing into Federation space.
I agree about Pressman not really being evil and that the Romulans were pretty much throwing away the treaty on a regular basis. Based on how they acted in the 2360s there's absolutely no way they weren't mooching around Federation space for most of the 24th Century. The only way they'd have openly revealed themselves in the 2360s is if they'd already done extensive probing into Federation space.
I'm not sure about that. Like, in the very first Romulan episode, it's said that the Federation-Romulan treaty established a Neutral Zone between the two territories, and that any intrusion into the Neutral Zone (nevermind the enemy territory past that) could be considered an act of war (depending on mood). So the Romulans violated the treaty, crossed clean through the Neutral Zone into Federation Space, and did a bunch of war crimes. Kirk gives chase, and he radios Starfleet Command, asking if he's allowed to violate the treaty in response. No answer. The Romulan manages to make it back into the Neutral Zone, and Kirk decides on his own authority to enter the Neutral Zone to give chase. Kirk manages to minimize his treaty violation somewhat by not crossing into Romulan space, but he still broke the treaty. At the end of the episode, Kirk hears back from Starfleet, and they say they're fine with whatever Kirk decides. As a Captain, he has the authority to bend or break the treaty, as part of his battlefield decisions. There's a reason why Starfleet gave him a ship and put him in command.
The Kobayashi Maru test involves a civilian ship in distress inside the Klingon Neutral Zone. Violate the treaty and enter the Neutral Zone, or sit back and watch the people on that ship die. Every answer is a failure. Not violating the treaty is considered a failure, and this is taught to every Captain.
And then we have to consider how much Starfleet Command knew about what Pressman was doing on the Pegasus. Pressman said that the Pegasus was a prototype ship, with experimental weapons and propulsion, which directly led to Enterprise-D technology. And then we find out that it's shields were experimental too. Did Pressman do all of this by himself, or did Starfleet Command (or people within Starfleet Command) sign off on and participate in the stuff he was doing? The Phasing Cloak might have been something that the Romulans could have interpreted as an act of war, if they ever found out. When Pressman's ship blew up (apparently because his crew didn't know the meaning of "top secret" or "need to know"), there was an inquiry, and then the inquiry disappeared. Picard had to call in personal favors to read a report that he was not allowed to read. Starfleet buried the Pegasus and gave Pressman and Riker promotions.
Sisko built himself a warship and called it an "escort vessel" as a way to skirt around Starfleet's "no warships" rule, because of the Borg threat. It was then shelved, and then repurposed later to respond to the Dominion threat. Did Sisko just "do" this on his own, or was Starfleet Command in on it every step of the way?
In season 3, the Romulans were again found playing around inside Federation space (easily past the Neutral Zone). The Romulans dismissed it with "LOL, navigation error, whatevs. What are you going to do, call our bluff?" If they're flagrantly disregarding the treaty, is Admiral Pressman (apparently backed up by the Chief of Starfleet Intelligence) wrong to do the same and restart the project? Especially after learning that the Romulans were beginning to look into Phasing technology (which would significantly amplify the scientific advantage Starfleet had handed the Romulans)?
(BTW, I do get that Starfleet Intelligence is supposed to be a stand-in for the CIA here, and the CIA does some bad shit that should absolutely never be allowed. I'm just trying to Devil's Advocate the fictional character of Captain/Admiral Pressman here. I'm not even sure I believe in the argument that I'm making.)
Yep. Deffo one of those two.
The worst crime of all. 😂
But in those examples there's an immediate threat the captain has to respond to which necessitates them having more freedom. Pressmann developing the phase cloak was different, it was out of principle and his argument was that the federation signing away cloaking technology was stupid and gave the romulans too much of an advantage and while that is probably true it was still a legal treaty the federation signed willingly. If the federation lets the romulans violate the treaty and doesn't treat it as an act of war that's on them but this does not give random officers the right to violate other sections of the treaty in return when they feel like it.
What starfleet command knew or didn't know about it doesn't matter in my opinion, it's still illegal. The federation isn't a military dictatorship, starfleet command doesn't get to make political decisions or decide on the validity of treaties, that's the federation council's job (but to be fair the writers sometimes seemed to forget that and treated starfleet command as the highest authority).
I think we have some Chief O'Brien At Work fans here:
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I wouldn't say Nechayev was evil, but she's clearly incompetent. A guy like Picard had no business going on what was essentially a commando mission, and that should have been obvious from the start.
The worst was probably Leyton though. When you're plotting a coup against your government, you might have gone too far.
The worst was probably Leyton though. When you're plotting a coup against your government, you might have gone too far.
The worst evidence against Necheyev is that the Dominion used her as a patsy in their fanfiction and nobody thought it unplausible.
All this work from home stuff made me realize that the ergonomics for every TNG-era show is terrible. You're basically looking down all the time instead of looking eye level. lol
Haha. TNG actually has the Spock thing though! The Engineering table and Worf's tactical thing. lol
What happens on Risa, stays on Risa.
The leader of the fundamentalists staged a fake terrorist attack, and Dax was like "I can arrest you for that" and the leader says "The Risians won't press charges. They're too weak for that." But it's not weakness that stays their hand. The Risian response was "Well, if staging fake terrorist attacks is what makes him happy... (although I really think he just needs to get laid)"
Worf didn't really do anything that bad, he just switched off the weather control system and brought back natural, normal, Risian weather. And the Risians are like "A little bit of rain won't get us down. ... Shit, this is getting us down. Maybe Worf has a point, and we are getting soft? Maybe we need to step up our happiness game."
Risa gets millions of tourists, and who is to say that the weather preferred by millions of tourists takes precedence over the weather preferred by just one tourist? The Risians, that's who gets final say on the weather. And the Risians will not say that Worf was wrong to futz with the weather controls.
Then the fundamentalist leader tried to use Worf's device to make earthquakes, and Worf punched him in the face for taking things too far.
I'm sure the Risians saw Worf as a success story, since he got some emotional shit worked out of his system, they learned something from him, and him and Dax got it on and deepened their relationship.
Risians: "Come back again soon Worf!"
Worf: "I didn't think I'd be welcome back."
Risians: "You don't know us very well, do you?"
Because for most of TNG Worf was not a person, he was a plot device. A way for the writers to demonstrate how much more enlightened the human starfleet officers were. Ergo he suffers no consequences, because he's there to fuck up and be wrong - he doesn't have the character continuity needed to be punished in-universe at that point.
The terrorist organization was State-approved. Risa is basically a living holodeck. If these guys want to get off on terrorist-play, then Risa lets them do that.
And up to this point, all the terrorists wanted to do was get loud and make statements. They waved around guns and startled people, but the guns had no ammo in them. Worf switching off the weather controls and allowing the planet to rain was similarly just making a statement (one that the Risians seem to have considered and appreciated more than what the previous terrorists were saying).
It was the terrorist organization that decided to escalate the situation by turning Worf's device into a WMD. That's about comparable to them starting to put actual live ammo into their weapons.
It's clear that Risa had no significant problem with Worf's level of State-approved terrorism-play. Yes, he provided the device that the terrorists easily turned into a WMD, but it's doubtful that Risa will be pressing charges even against the actual terrorists (nevermind Worf). The terrorist leader is a challenge to them. They're going to love the shit out of him until they win. It's not a Starfleet matter, they're handling the situation internally, their way.
Worf handed them an all access key to the entire Risa weather control system with absolutely zero restrictions on it. They didn't have to bypass some security he put in place, or actually modify it in any meaningful way. He didn't even ask for it back when he left. It'd be like saying he gave them the master key to a bank but only personally escorted them into the lobby before he left, so he therefore isn't responsible that they then used the same key to enter the vault and steal all the money.
Yes, and he did that in full view of the authorities, while taking credit for what he did.
*shrug*
Risa didn't give a shit about the terrorists (I mean, in the negative sense, they were actively trying to convert them, and win them over to their way of thinking). The terrorists did some harmless mischief. The Risians allowed it. Worf did some harmless mischief. The Risians allowed it. Worf handed his mischief-tool over to the mischievous, State-approved terrorists. The Risians authorities saw that and allowed it.
Then the terrorists did something with Worf's tool that went beyond mischief. And Worf stepped in and disallowed it (which was fortunate, because the Risians would probably have allowed the situation to continue, either that or they would've been forced to compromise their principles by disallowing it).
Maybe the Risians are weak-willed pushovers (or maybe they're far better and far stronger than anyone else), but they backed and supported everything that Worf did, which is why Worf didn't get into any trouble with Starfleet over it. Worf had a fun adventure on Risa, in the Risian way. Unless Starfleet has a rule that says that the only thing Risa is good for is having sex with a native population that is incapable of saying "no".
This confirms what I always suspected. I'll be bald by the time I hit the age of 47.
You're Captain James T. Kirk!
You captain through adrenaline and sheer heart. You have strong moral conviction and put your life on the line for what you believe is just. You are revered as a tactical genius.
You captain through adrenaline and sheer heart. You have strong moral conviction and put your life on the line for what you believe is just. You are revered as a tactical genius.
Poked around a bit and managed to get him:
See, to me, I dunno if I'd describe Sisko as rash, precisely. Driven, sometimes to the point of blindness, sure. But rash? I guess he pops off sometimes but there's almost always a plan behind it.
Exactly. I've never seen him as rash.
I think he's the most human of all the captains.
Physically assaulting an all-powerful extradimensional being whose first contact with the Federation was to put humanity on trial for its crimes, before vanishing? With the Federation incapable of doing anything at all, except communicate with him?
I mean, I know the Q were seemingly uninterested in doing anything at all to the galaxy outside of Q's absurdist fancies, but it's still rash.
Although I suppose the notion of physical harm would be amusing to someone like Q so maybe I'm thinking too mortally or something.
