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Oct 27, 2017
12,978
Caught up. Discovery, at this point, is what it is. A not particularly well written show that is enjoyable enough if you're not expecting more than disposable television that relies on impressive production values.


The DMA now feels predictable as an overarching existential threat in how it retreads familiar beats instead of striving towards the future by embracing the tenants of factions beholden to doctrine. I would've much preferred the DMA being a naturally occurring threat that functions as a problem on a finite scale with textured applications so that it actually forced Discovery to deal with the crises it presented instead of acting as a variable abstract. Having its origin being created from megalomaniacal desire and becoming an experiment gone wrong or representing an omnipotent attempt analogous to the Federation's creed is so boring in comparison.

I do like how Laira challenges Michael on a fundamental level that tests not only her resolve but also her partiality towards treating leadership as a binary zero-sum equation. Confronting shortcomings that shift responsibility onto others and put the many at risk in favor of a few does a great job deconstructing the pathological savior complex that defines Michael's character. Not boiling this down to an antagonistic clash of philosophies, principled notions or political expediency and instead forging a relationship tied to the backbone of a larger interconnected narrative about the Federation's evolution as an institution is appreciated. And it gives the audience the benefit of the doubt of possessing enough emotional intelligence to understand the conflict generated. Certainly a change for this show.

The one thing this season does do well is establishing an actualized sense of place and time for the 32nd century Federation through its technological advancement, diplomatic endeavors and reconstituted structural entities. Not only does it provide less ambiguity in terms of grounding the setting, it also streamlines the narrative by giving it more thematic purpose. So that much is appreciated I guess.

I have a major problem with the characterization on the show though and it comes down to the amateurish writing and plot advancement of characters the showrunners clearly have no idea what to do with. Using the dichotomy of present circumstances as a cudgel against metamorphosis gives most of the crew an opportunity to engage in the process of confronting terrifying propositions but the epiphany of rediscovering themselves and remembering what is essential to their experiences does little to make characters like Tilly or Adira or Stamets (as only a couple of notable examples) more intriguing because they lack the dimensionality that makes their introspection feel earned or affecting towards those around them. And they remain little more than inconsequential background characters that don't feel substantial enough to empathize with.

And why the hell is Zora becoming sentient such a throwaway one-liner here and there now? Isn't that kind of important and something that should be of interest to the Federation and Discovery's crew?
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,978
Sure. You can easily argue that and I wouldn't disagree.

But outside of Saru, Michael, Georgiou (when she was on the show), Laira and Book most of the character writing tends to resort to generic exposition and reductive quips that ignores subtext and subtlety which is pretty offputting.

Main reason why none of the Adira, Tilly, Stamets or Culber stuff has ever worked for me.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
Sure. You can easily argue that and I wouldn't disagree.

But outside of Saru, Michael, Georgiou (when she was on the show), Laira and Book most of the character writing tends to resort to generic exposition and reductive quips that ignores subtext and subtlety which is pretty offputting.

Main reason why none of the Adira, Tilly, Stamets or Culber stuff has ever worked for me.

Stamets and Culber mostly work though. Tilly I agree with. She has not really worked since season 1.

As for your analysis above, I think it can be summed as: STD is a show where everyone is on their A-game except the writers.

It is a shame because the cast is game for real work, but the writers don't seem to know what they are doing. Honestly, if the show was a sight bit less pretty and the cast less likable I would have dropped it a long time ago.

As-is though, it is REALLY pretty and I love the cast.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
12,978
Stamets and Culber mostly work though. Tilly I agree with. She has not really worked since season 1.

As for your analysis above, I think it can be summed as: STD is a show where everyone is on their A-game except the writers.

It is a shame because the cast is game for real work, but the writers don't seem to know what they are doing. Honestly, if the show was a sight bit less pretty and the cast less likable I would have dropped it a long time ago.

As-is though, it is REALLY pretty and I love the cast.
The new AR wall they're using has upped the visual eye-candy even further and I've really enjoyed how it's been utilized so far. Agree about the cast too - they're able to elevate some of the material they're given but there's only so much they can do.

I'll revisit my criticism about Stamets and Culber as the season progresses because they've laid the foundation for interesting plotting through their emotional trauma but I need to see how it resolves itself first.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,194
Stamets and Culber should be more interesting than they are. But that's a function of them basically being the Harry Kims of the show more than anything else.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,599
I really thought they'd explore the bridge crew leaving their families behind but so far they've been in the show even less than the last few seasons
 

Rookhelm

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,690
I've noticed Detmer and Owoshekun have not been in the last 2 episodes. Could be a budget or writing thing, but I wish the minor cast got some focus
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,194
I really thought they'd explore the bridge crew leaving their families behind but so far they've been in the show even less than the last few seasons
NPC Guy was saved from a tornado by Starfleet! That's deep lore! lol

I've noticed Detmer and Owoshekun have not been in the last 2 episodes. Could be a budget or writing thing, but I wish the minor cast got some focus
There's definitely a clear priority, but since there are half the number of episodes, they can't really afford to give the throwaway characters their own episodes.
Like for Harry Kim, he was basically "I fucked an alien and now she wants to kill me". I honestly can't remember what kind of episodes Mayweather got, if any.

I suppose anything is better than Crusher basically being associated with banging the alien who banged her grandmother though. The only other Crusher episode that comes to mind is the one where she's stuck in the bubble universe. lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,599
NPC Guy was saved from a tornado by Starfleet! That's deep lore! lol


There's definitely a clear priority, but since there are half the number of episodes, they can't really afford to give the throwaway characters their own episodes.
Like for Harry Kim, he was basically "I fucked an alien and now she wants to kill me". I honestly can't remember what kind of episodes Mayweather got, if any.

I suppose anything is better than Crusher basically being associated with banging the alien who banged her grandmother though. The only other Crusher episode that comes to mind is the one where she's stuck in the bubble universe. lol

Mayweather got that eps where the girl he liked betrayed him to get the inside scoop on Enterprise, that's all I remember about him lol
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,280
Enjoying where this is going but yeah that experiment xould have waited an hour lads.

Can I also add as a cishet dude, Culber is ffhhhyyynnneee.
 
Sep 5, 2021
3,032
NPC Guy was saved from a tornado by Starfleet! That's deep lore! lol


There's definitely a clear priority, but since there are half the number of episodes, they can't really afford to give the throwaway characters their own episodes.
Like for Harry Kim, he was basically "I fucked an alien and now she wants to kill me". I honestly can't remember what kind of episodes Mayweather got, if any.

I suppose anything is better than Crusher basically being associated with banging the alien who banged her grandmother though. The only other Crusher episode that comes to mind is the one where she's stuck in the bubble universe. lol

You know they're not the main characters on the show, right? They are the same as the extras that appeared in several TNG episodes with the same actors, they are only slightly more important as they are part of the bridge crew. The main characters are Michael, Tilly, Culber, Adira and etc. DIS has pretty much the same number of main characters as the other series (apart from TOS), it's just that they aren't part of the bridge crew.
 

Juraash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,339
Imagine what this show could have been had they continued with Lorca

The second Lorca was revealed as being from the Mirror Universe, anything interesting about him was flushed imo. The MU is stupid most of the time, but at least it's historically been kinda fun while being stupid. Discovery's MU is about as much torture to sit through as one of those agonizers.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
You know they're not the main characters on the show, right? They are the same as the extras that appeared in several TNG episodes with the same actors, they are only slightly more important as they are part of the bridge crew. The main characters are Michael, Tilly, Culber, Adira and etc. DIS has pretty much the same number of main characters as the other series (apart from TOS), it's just that they aren't part of the bridge crew.

lol yeah.

I realized this earlier this season and it all clicked.

Once you stop trying to shove the show into the same mold as previous Trek, it is much improved.

At this point, Michael and Saru are the only main characters consistently on the bridge.
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,194
You know they're not the main characters on the show, right? They are the same as the extras that appeared in several TNG episodes with the same actors, they are only slightly more important as they are part of the bridge crew. The main characters are Michael, Tilly, Culber, Adira and etc. DIS has pretty much the same number of main characters as the other series (apart from TOS), it's just that they aren't part of the bridge crew.
Yet they're all Lt. Commanders and outrank Tilly. lol

They clearly want to have the crew be something where you'd believe they'd all see each other like a Fast and Furious Crew living life one warp at a time, but they have no time to do anything interesting with them except for like throwaway lines.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,231
Mayweather got that eps where the girl he liked betrayed him to get the inside scoop on Enterprise, that's all I remember about him lol

He had a few eps in the first two seasons that focused on his family life and background. Neither were very good though and the actor couldn't handle the emotional scenes, part of the reason they may have sidelined him further.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,630
I remember when last season they had an episode or two that was more focused on the crew and wanted to show off how well they worked together and it just fell flat for me because I was like "I barely even know these people and I don't know half their names."

It's weird because Discovery obviously can introduce new characters and write decent stories for them: Booker, Adira and Gray, even Nhan to an extent (remember her?). It's just that for some reason, this never really extends to the rest of the bridge crew.
 

DBT85

Resident Thread Mechanic
Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,280
Yet they're all Lt. Commanders and outrank Tilly. lol

They clearly want to have the crew be something where you'd believe they'd all see each other like a Fast and Furious Crew living life one warp at a time, but they have no time to do anything interesting with them except for like throwaway lines.
Yes can in part be ascribed to bot running 24+ eps a season like old trek. Its bot the whole reason but it certainly magnifies the issue. When you've only got 420 ish (10eps right?) Minutes you have to be more picky than when you've got 1010 minutes.
 

astroturfing

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,455
Suomi Finland
thinking of jumping in, havent watched any scifi series in a long time.. what am i in for? how serious and grounded is this? and why is there a character named after the mushroom dude Paul Stamets..?
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,272
thinking of jumping in, havent watched any scifi series in a long time.. what am i in for? how serious and grounded is this? and why is there a character named after the mushroom dude Paul Stamets..?

It's about as not-grounded as Star Trek can be. If you jump in, expect space magic galore. If you want grounded, consider The Expanse on Amazon or For All Mankind of Apple. As to Discovery, it's been a long road, getting to where we are now. Opinions will vary, but I think every season has been better than the last.

Season 1: Despite setting itself up as a 10-year prequel to TOS seemed to do everything it could to break away from ST traditions, including the appearance of various aliens, technology. It's a wild, borderline insane ride.
Season 2: it's like the writers room looked at season 1 and went "oops!" and went on an apology tour for season 1. It brings in some new cast members that improve the dynamic. The season-long plot is still pretty silly.
Season 3: makes a big change to the setting of the show and is nearly a reboot. Some of the baggage from earlier seasons is still present, but the changes help. The new setting introduces some intriguing differences, but the main plot is a bit too similar to season 2.
Season 4: so far i think it's the best of the show and feels like the writers have finally figured out how to balance weekly episodic plots with the main story. Still lots of space magic.

The Paul Stamets in the show is also a mushroom researcher. I can't believe that I didn't know they named him after a real person, lol.
 

starcourt84

Member
Aug 4, 2019
223
For me so far,

S2 > S1 > S4 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > S3

The jump to the future has largely proved forgettable except for the Romulan/Vulcan/Ni'Var outcome.

Where are the Klingons? Where are all of the other aliens that Star Trek has spent decades making us build relationships with?

Just a total missed opportunity for me, imo.

Haven't been a fan of what the new showrunner Michelle Paradise has done so far.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,272
Where are the Klingons? Where are all of the other aliens that Star Trek has spent decades making us build relationships with?

I'm a fan of Klingons and I also wonder what they're up to, but I think it's ok that they haven't resurfaced yet. The show's first season was focused on the Klingons. It makes sense to explore new stuff and expand the universe for a while they come up with a good storyline for the Klingons to return.

We're still seeing appearances from legacy ST aliens. Like you said, the Vulcans and Romulans are a major focus. We have two Trill among the main cast. The Federation president is partially Cardassian. Last season focused on the Orions, which are literally one of the OG aliens, going back to The Cage and the two aliens on Tilly's field trip were a Tellarite and an Orion. The classic aliens are there.
 

chrominance

Sky Van Gogh
Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,630
For me personally it's definitely been S4 > S3 >>>> S1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S2.

I just really did not give a shit about the Red Angel and I still can't believe what they did to Kaminar. Most of the Spock stuff wasn't interesting to me either. The main highlight of that season for me was Pike, to be honest. Oh, and Owosekun got some light character development in an early episode, so there's that. I think that was also the year Picard aired and it's one of the more dismal years of Star Trek I've had the pleasure of watching.

Season 1 I think mostly suffers from not really knowing what to do with the Klingon war, and the Klingon side of things not being that compelling, but it was at least interesting due to the novelty of a new Star Trek show and I actually don't mind their version of the Mirror Universe, though I know everyone else hates it. (I'm also the one person who didn't mind the two-parter last season so I know I'm in a vanishingly small minority here.)

Also, I think it's canon with the second most recent episode that the Federation president is half Bajor, half Cardassian. Or at least some ancestry that involves both.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,251
For me personally it's definitely been S4 > S3 >>>> S1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> S2.

I just really did not give a shit about the Red Angel and I still can't believe what they did to Kaminar. Most of the Spock stuff wasn't interesting to me either. The main highlight of that season for me was Pike, to be honest. Oh, and Owosekun got some light character development in an early episode, so there's that. I think that was also the year Picard aired and it's one of the more dismal years of Star Trek I've had the pleasure of watching.

Season 1 I think mostly suffers from not really knowing what to do with the Klingon war, and the Klingon side of things not being that compelling, but it was at least interesting due to the novelty of a new Star Trek show and I actually don't mind their version of the Mirror Universe, though I know everyone else hates it. (I'm also the one person who didn't mind the two-parter last season so I know I'm in a vanishingly small minority here.)

Also, I think it's canon with the second most recent episode that the Federation president is half Bajor, half Cardassian. Or at least some ancestry that involves both.
I totally agree that S2 as been the nadir of the show so far. It was just…bad. Only redeemed by Pike.

S3 started out very promising, but hit a brick wall with the Mirror Universe two parter and then had a boring action climax, featuring my favorite bad scene in pretty much all of Trek: the fight in the endless turbo lift void. It's seriously one of the dumbest and most thoughtless scenes in all of Trek, and this is a franchise that has Beverly's dead grandma being possessed by the ghost that lived in her sex candle.

S4 has been a winner for me, so far. It's taken and expanded on everything I thought was interesting in S3, without the presence of Gender-Swapped Space Hitler as a beloved "hero".
 

astroturfing

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,455
Suomi Finland
thanks butalala !

yeah i like me some space magic (if its actually imaginative and well-made), i dont expect Star Trek to be very grounded hehe. was just wondering if they went that route, since i havent seen anything Trek related in about a decade.

i'll watch an episode or two over the holidays and see how i feel.
 

butalala

Member
Nov 24, 2017
5,272
thanks butalala !

yeah i like me some space magic (if its actually imaginative and well-made), i dont expect Star Trek to be very grounded hehe. was just wondering if they went that route, since i havent seen anything Trek related in about a decade.

i'll watch an episode or two over the holidays and see how i feel.
Nice. The first couple episodes are kind of a prologue to the main story of season 1, so I guess you'd want to focus on whether you enjoy the main character Michael and tone of the show over the overall story.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,074
The second Lorca was revealed as being from the Mirror Universe, anything interesting about him was flushed imo. The MU is stupid most of the time, but at least it's historically been kinda fun while being stupid. Discovery's MU is about as much torture to sit through as one of those agonizers.

A terrible mistake on their part, I agree.
 

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,247
Good episode. This season is on 🔥 (which knowing Trek's history means it's probably on the bubble...).

The DMA being

from beyond the galaxy is damned exciting. Was the sonar comment a ST4 probe reference?
 

firehawk12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,194
They're trying very hard to give each NPC a story beat per episode and it just feels so... perfunctory. lol
Like every episode is going to be tied to one of their tragic back stories that they haven't told anyone in 4 years.

Also, if they were going to full fan service, they should have blasted out Sabotage as the ping and called it "Classical music". lol
 

Skyfireblaze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,257
Since this is now on Amazon Prime Video in Germany I just bought the whole season for 20 bucks and can finally watch things in peace, good riddance :P
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
Wow, that was fucking amazing. A couple of awkward and rushed moments aside, this was great.

Good episode. This season is on 🔥 (which knowing Trek's history means it's probably on the bubble...).

The DMA being

from beyond the galaxy is damned exciting. Was the sonar comment a ST4 probe reference?

Nah. The latest news about Paramount Plus said it was huge on the platform.
 

ezekial45

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,748
Good episode. This season is on 🔥 (which knowing Trek's history means it's probably on the bubble...).

Star Trek Discovery is the most popular show on Paramount Plus, so its future looks to be secure. Plus, I would think the nonsense with the international streaming won't have much impact on its chances for renewal.

EDIT:
Anyway, this episode was great. I'm really happy with how this season has been turning out so far. I've enjoyed every season of the show, but they've usually had one big caveat that knocked it down some pegs. But right now, this season has been pretty consistent. I hope it will continue to keep hitting these notes. It's about time for Star Trek Discovery to hit its stride like every other ST show.

Also, this scene was just fantastic. I was initially a bit iffy on Zora/Discovery AI becoming a more fleshed out character, but this scene really made it all worth it.

 
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starcourt84

Member
Aug 4, 2019
223
Good episode. This season is on 🔥 (which knowing Trek's history means it's probably on the bubble...).

The DMA being

from beyond the galaxy is damned exciting. Was the sonar comment a ST4 probe reference?
I haven't watched yet but oh that's cool.

I was thinking about that the other day... can't the spore drive go anywhere in the known universe?

So it'd be cool to explore outside what they've traditionally stuck to.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,973
That was quite good, although again I can't help but feel like there's a...missing presence in the writers room of anyone who's really been engaged with the modern sci-fi of the last twenty years. A lot of the stuff with Zora feels extremely basic in terms of how its handling an AI
 

Proteus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,982
Toronto

Wrexis

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21,247

StevieP

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,268
After the last few episodes, I thought this one totally jumped the shark and had too much hackey writing/dialogue. Especially when it came to Zora. And putting everyone in the pattern buffer a la Scotty. And unearned romance and sonar (what?!) and melting robots and and and... I hope they go back to the better quality storytelling next episode before the break. Not even spectacular visuals and Frakes' mostly quality direction saved that one for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,978

Joeytj

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,673
On the subject of Discovery's popularity on Paramount +; not surprising, but only because I'm actually constantly surprised about how many people watch it casually. I personally know several non Trek fans that found it via Netflix and enjoyed it and Picard as well. I keep recommending Lower Decks to them! Tell them it's actually the best new Trek series out there lol.