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imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Hey y'all. I'm posting this article from my own site, although it was inspired by some thoughts I had after some discussion in this thread started by Slayven so hopefully this share is acceptable. Honestly many of the things I write there start as idea nuggets in discussion here. So, here goes:

Star Trek's BEST DAD Ben Sisko… and the ONLY WAY He Should Return in Picard Season 2

SiskoVsPicard-1.gif


On S1 of Picard tying up the story of Data:

Picard was a father figure to all the bridge crew that served under him, but Data became over the years the closest our intrepid Jean Luc ever came to having a son of his own. A father should never outlive his children, if he can help it. I appreciated the series bringing a proper coda to what had been such an abrupt and hollow end to their relationship.

Did the first Picard Season 2 teaser hint at the return of Benjamin Sisko?

Hidden among the props and other Easter Eggs within that teaser, dedicated fans spotted the broken fragments of the Bajoran Reckoning Tablet, a reference which hints at the possible involvement of some portion of the DS9 mythos involving the wormhole aliens: powerful entities who experienced time in a non-linear fashion that worshiped and known by the name The Prophets by the Bajoran people. Captain Benjamin Sisko, the leader and star of all seven season of the show, established communication with these aliens and was known as The Emissary by the people of the planet of Bajor, around which the titular Starfleet station would orbit. So it's already a cozy fit to have some sort of reference to DS9's Prophets and their cross-time awareness since Picard Season 2 seems to be taking on alternate timeline plots as its main season-long arc.

The importance of Sisko's role as father to Avery Brooks:

Avery Brooks—who played Ben Sisko throughout the show's run—has highlighted over the years in various interviews interviews his ever-present father-and-son relationship with Jake—played by Cirroc Lofton—as one of his favorite aspects of playing the character. It's a facet of the portrayal he hoped would make a difference in terms of representation, as he outlines here in an interview with Nashville Scene from 2012:

The relationship between Sisko and his son was also very important. That was something else you still don't often see on air, at least as it concerns black and brown men and their sons. We got to play complicated, emotional and intricate scenes, and we got to have tender and fun moments. It wasn't a pat relationship or an easy one, and it was very realistic. The show never took the easy way out when it came to situations, be they personal or political, and that provided us with a lot of great things to do as actors.
Avery Brooks, Nashville SceneDeep Space Nine's Avery Brooks went where few black men on TV had gone before – June 7, 2012
Unforced errors in writing Sisko:

Avery Brooks is on record as having signed on for the part of Benjamin Sisko on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine at least partly on the basis of the strength of the script for its pilot, "Emissary." The chilly meeting early in the episode between Sisko and Picard speaks to how, despite knowing the circumstance of abduction and assimilation that led to Picard's unwilling murder of his wife Jennifer, Sisko is stuck on the trauma and its effects on his life, unable to move on.

SiskoVsPicard2.gif


It would be this past trauma, and the "non-linear" nature of Sisko's relationship with time, that would allow him to fully explain our relationship with time, and allow the wormhole aliens to form some sort of relationship with our species, and—by extension— our reality. I really liked the implication that the Prophets took an interest in Sisko specifically because he was still in mourning over the death of his wife Jennifer: there was something so beautiful and poetic about how the frailty of a human heart—stuck in the non-linear time loop of mourning a loss—can be the one defining quality that can lead a non-linear-time alien race to recognize our merit as a species, and our potential benevolence.

It was the story that motivated Avery Brooks to take the role. Anything that diminished it was a mistake.

But as the series went on, the showrunners would indeed eventually commit this mistake. In the opening episode of the seventh season "Image in the Sand," it would be revealed that Sisko's mother that he had known all his life was not his birth mother, and that his birth mother had been a woman named Sarah whom had been possessed by a Prophet during Ben's conception and first year of life. Suddenly Ben was transformed from the Starfleet every-man whose loving and mourning heart drew the attention and sympathy of the Prophets, into a literal demigod whose existence was purposefully brought about as he was predetermined to become the Emissary… because the Prophets had sent an emissary of their own to conceive him.

The cliffhanger at the end of Deep Space Nine:

Sisko must pay a price for his deal with the Prophets. He must return to Bajor for the confrontation in the fire caves, wherein his special role as the Emissary makes him the only one who can stop Dukat from releasing the Pagh Wraiths… by hitting him with a Holy Flying Tackle, sending both of them into the flames. Dukat is destroyed while SIsko, divinely protected, disappears into the distinctive white nothingness that is our visual cue to designate the realm of the wormhole aliens:

A quick refresher on the DS9 finale: The series ends with Captain Sisko remaining in a spectral plane called the "Ancestral Temple" where the Prophets tell him he will stay indefinitely and continue his duties as the Emissary. Although the epilogue shows Kira Nerys and Jake Sisko mourning the loss of the Emissary, Sisko promises his wife Kasidy in an earlier scene that he'll return to her at some point — though, with the Prophets, time can be a fickle thing — and the viewer is left unsure if that means Sisko will come back in a few months or a few hundred years.
Deep Space Nine ends on that final mystery: If and when Captain Sisko will return. With the Bajoran Reckoning Tablet in the Picard trailer, we may finally have a hint toward an answer.
Lauren Coates, syfy.comCould a Star Trek: Picard Season 2 trailer Easter egg hint at Deep Space Nine ties? – Apr. 8, 2021
Sadly, the series ending episode for the series led by Star Trek's Best Dad ends with him leaving his son and pregnant wife for an unknown period of time. Perhaps it was irresistible story gravitas to the writers to put his role as an ever-present father—one of the most important and defining aspects of the character—at risk.

So for Ben Sisko to "part-die," to go away and leave his bride and her unborn child with no certainly of when or if he will return, yet to be denied the true self-sacrifice of a necessary death to save everyone in the universe, seemed like a half-measure. It again denied the audience the sorrow and finality of a character's actual, irrevocable death in Star Trek, a long-running fault of the entire franchise that it also shares with soap operas. Most importantly, it seemed out of character for Sisko.

Before "What You Leave Behind," I had felt that it would be only death that could succeed in separating Benjamin Sisko from his children.

SiskoReturnBlah-1.gif


The same showrunners continue the same unforced error (theoretically) 20 years later:

What We Left Behind was a fantastic crowd-funded documentary about Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. The documentary was produced by 455 Films, directed by Ira Steven Behr and David Zappone, and released by Shout! Studios. It was fantastically even-handed and loving in its treatment of the history of the show, yet truthful and honest about the ups and downs of productions and storytelling. My feelings about the giant middle-finger flashed to Terry Farrell upon her departure were largely confirmed, for example.

The documentary also offered an inside look at the showrunners, twenty years later, breaking a theoretical eighth season of Deep Space Nine. And it proposes basically the opposite of what I, and the authors of the post-DS9 non-canon novels, wanted and proposed: Sisko returns to his family after twenty years of absence.

What I'd Like to See... Sisko already long-since returned, having raised his new kid too:

I found it even more hopeful for any future appearance from the character that there was no sign of any Deep Space Nine references in the second trailer for Picard: Season 2. Since we are still only teased by that first appearance of the Bajoran Reckoning tablet in the first teaser shown for the second season, to my mind this means the likelihood increases that any appearance by the Emissary of the Prophets would more likely be a short cameo. Picard dealing with alternate timelines could justify a a reason for the show to seek and acknowledge Sisko's wisdom and insight into Time itself. And Benjamin's appearance in the show could finally bring some closure to the cliffhanger left for those in the audience who so strongly responded to his role as a father, the way Data's appearance brought closure to unresolved cliffhangers about his character.

I kind of like the idea of one pivotal scene between Jean Luc Picard and Benjamin Sisko… one more powerful scene between these two characters, and between these two actors whose powerful scene together first launched Star Trek into bold new territory: I see Picard seeking out Sisko for his advice and council, finding him retired and happy in New Orleans. Sisko is not shucking any clams himself any more but clearly he's keeping the family restaurant alive… and he's swimming in grandchildren, with maybe a few pets trotting around.

So what do you all think?

Did Picard S1 wrap up the story of Data in a way you liked?

Did the way DS9 ended with the cliffhanger about Sisko's return diminish what had been accomplished with representation showing his character as a loving and constant and committed black father? Or nah?

Do you trust Picard Season 2 to wrap up the story of Sisko in a way you'll like?

Or are you more interested in the old scuttlebutt about a reboot or an actual season 8 of DS9?
 
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Nov 27, 2020
4,257
I'm with you. I'm not sure spoilers are that needed for a show that ended over two decades ago, but…

It never set right with me to think that Sisko would have ever willingly leave Kassidy alone to raise their daughter. One of his defining characteristics is that he was a devoted father and family was more important than anything to him. If there was ever a story about him having returned from the Celestial Temple, and he was able to do it at any time or any place, he would have returned in time for the birth of his daughter and would have raised her. There's just no other way to stay true to the character and not spoil who Benjamin Sisko was and what he represented on television at that time.

So I'm with you. Sisko's been back this whole time, raising his family and living a good life with Kassidy, either on Earth or (my preference) having opened a Sisko's franchise on Bajor. DON'T SCREW THIS UP PICARD WRITER'S ROOM!!!! Lol
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
I think we're safe not to tag spoilers 'cuz I warned in the tread title.

lol I love the idea about a Sisko's franchise on Bajor. But I suppose I took it as inviolable that "he cannot rest there" after he made the deal with the Prophets to disappear that Dominion invasion fleet. I suppose that's why I put him back in his father's town: where he ran for comfort when he needed it.

His return idea in the proposed season 8 in What we Left Behind made me kind of angry. I could see it coming a mile away and all this stuff about Sisko's role as a father was never even mentioned by the, admittedly hastily assembled, writer's room.

Glad I'm not alone in feeling this way! Reddit mostly seems to think either the DS9 story ended just fine, or that Picard's writer will only screw this up. :)
 

SpaceBridge

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,754
I'd support Sisko coming back but didn't Brooks go on record saying he has no interest in coming back?
 

CommodoreKong

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,710
I have 0 faith that Picard Seaon 2 would do a good job of handling a return of Sisko. If Sisko came back in Picard Season 2 he would probably be some kind of twisted evil super emissary that Picard needs to blow up or something stupid like that.

Not that it really matters, I get the impression that Avery Brooks has 0 interest in ever returning to Star Trek unless something changed recently.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,705
You'd never get Brooks back, he's done with Trek. He didn't even participate in the anniversary documentary a few years ago beyond giving the OK to use past interviews, and it was pretty jarring to have everyone there but the lead.
 

Zip

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,028
Count me in the 'I wouldn't trust Picard writers to write it well' camp.

Would be a nice way to reverse some of the unsatisfactory ending for ds9 though.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,123
"Gone forever in only moments" is how I want Sisko's time with the Prophets to have played out.
 

jb1234

Very low key
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,232
You'd never get Brooks back, he's done with Trek. He didn't even participate in the anniversary documentary a few years ago beyond giving the OK to use past interviews, and it was pretty jarring to have everyone there but the lead.

There's been hints that his health is bad. No one is really talking though.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
"Gone forever in only moments" is how I want Sisko's time with the Prophets to have played out.

So… you want the plot of The Visitor to actually happen to his second child?

No, you want what I do: he's gone from our world a short time but forever in his mind. He is there for Kasidy and his kid: but only he knows how hard it was to return.
 

nenned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,099
He deserts his son and impregnated wife at the end of DS9. If he is Star Trek's best dad, the bar must be insanely low.

That being said, I would love to see Sisko return in Picard season 2 to redeem himself.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
He deserts his son and impregnated wife at the end of DS9. If he is Star Trek's best dad, the bar must be insanely low.
The bar is that low. There are no real good fathers in Star Trek, and the only other father and son relationship really explored on screen is Worf and his son and Worf is a terrible father. O'Brien's relationship with his daughter isn't really explored.
 

Addie

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,703
DFW
The bar is that low. There are no real good fathers in Star Trek, and the only other father and son relationship really explored on screen is Worf and his son and Worf is a terrible father. O'Brien's relationship with his daughter isn't really explored.
Rom and Nog? I can't think of anyone else that would remotely fit the bill.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,257
I personally think that if they somehow do convince Brooks to come back, it will be because they have a story that a)sort of fixes the end of DS9 and b) is in line with the reasons he wanted to play the character in the first place. I kind of think that Avery Brooks is generally very proud of his time on DS9 (rightfully so), and he's also probably protective of where the character might go if there is a future for Sisko on screen. Not too dissimilar to Patrick Stewart - except - I think Avery Brooks understands Sisko and what made the character special more than Stewart understands Picard and what made him special.

So yeah, if Sisko were to come back, it would be because it's a story that's inline with what drew Brooks to the character in the first place, and there really aren't many options beyond what the OP laid out.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,978
Rom and Nog? I can't think of anyone else that would remotely fit the bill.
That's fair. He's not Starfleet and Rom's a bit of an idiot but he's not a deadbeat. It's more a Starfleet thing I think, most of the dads are dead or killed. It's probably hard to really put children on the Frontline of the Dominion war on DS9 or on a ship like the Enterprise and have their parents basically exposing them to danger every week without them all being shitty parents by default.
 

The Adder

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,123
So… you want the plot of The Visitor to actually happen to his second child?

No, you want what I do: he's gone from our world a short time but forever in his mind. He is there for Kasidy and his kid: but only he knows how hard it was to return.
Correct. The Visitor was him being gone for moments forever.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
I personally think that if they somehow do convince Brooks to come back, it will be because they have a story that a)sort of fixes the end of DS9 and b) is in line with the reasons he wanted to play the character in the first place. I kind of think that Avery Brooks is generally very proud of his time on DS9 (rightfully so), and he's also probably protective of where the character might go if there is a future for Sisko on screen.

See this lines up with some rumors I heard, which also coincide with some other rumors from around the same time around discussions about revisiting DS9 somehow.
 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,012
Rom and Nog? I can't think of anyone else that would remotely fit the bill.

Yep, Rom and Nog is probably the only good example. But, I dunno cuz Nog kinda resented his father and looked at him as a joke and a failure for adhering to Farengi custom instead of following his passion. Nog joined Starfleet specifically because he didn't want to end up like his father. Still, there's no denying that Rom tries to be a good dad and looks after his son.
 

Dary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,416
The English Wilderness
Sisko's ending always felt awkward to me because - obvious unfortunate implications aside - the Prophets exist outside of time so, like, couldn't he just return to the moment after he left once he's finished doing...whatever it was he had to do?

I do like the idea of him just showing up, living a good life with no indication he was ever really gone, but "white dude turns to mystical Black man for guidance" might not be a great way to readdress the problem.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
Sisko's ending always felt awkward to me because - obvious unfortunate implications aside - the Prophets exist outside of time so, like, couldn't he just return to the moment after he left once he's finished doing...whatever it was he had to do?

Yes, like The Adder said so well:

"Gone forever in only moments" is how I want Sisko's time with the Prophets to have played out.

How much time it was for Ben, and how the time passed for him, would be only for him to know.
Maybe that would be a cool moment in the scene, for him to reveal that.

I do like the idea of him just showing up, living a good life with no indication he was ever really gone, but "white dude turns to mystical Black man for guidance" might not be a great way to readdress the problem.

Good point. Not really sure how to address it.

Avery Brooks probably not signing up for in-person gallivanting adventures to help resolve the plot through Sisko's own agency.

I suppose I could only hope for this instance to be the exception proving the rule, since they did spend a whole 'nother series making Sisko an expert in non-linear time. And another scene between the two of them would make such a good follow-up, given the power of the scene I GIF'd above.
 

thediamondage

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,277
data was a good dad to Lal and O'Brian was a good dad to Molly, he went through a lot of shit for her! Also Sergey Rozhenko was a great dad to Worf and Paulie, who was just a bad seed and went on to start his own criminal empire in Star Trek: Goodfellas

and no thanks to Ben Sisko being on Picard, first it doesn't really make any sense since they barely met each other and didn't really get along, and there are far more important characters that Picard needs to ruin before it winds its way down to DS9. Worf has to be ejected into a Klingon time traveling black hole, Miles O'Brian needs to be sent to a repeating loop energy crystal, and Wesley needs to be sent to the Zeta quadrant where everyone is even more annoying than him.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,257
I do like the idea of him just showing up, living a good life with no indication he was ever really gone, but "white dude turns to mystical Black man for guidance" might not be a great way to readdress the problem.
I doubt that Brooks would be lured back with such a troupey part, but I can also imagine the writers of Season 1 of Picard reaching for exactly that. Since we're speaking of hypotheticals though, the idea I had about the series after they announced it would have been a much quieter, more introspective show about an accomplished man at the end of his life examining his legacy and what he's leaving behind. An episode or two focusing on Sisko would have been wholly appropriate in a show like that. For Picard, there was no bigger impact on his life than his time as Locutus, and that's a trauma that he shares with Sisko. There could be good, meaty drama mined from the two men finally coming to terms with that. At least for Picard, we've been shown over and over again that he's struggled dealing with it, while Sisko seemed to have somewhat dealt with it by the end of "Emissary", it's not something that's really touched on for the rest of the series.

Of course, with the storyline we've glimpsed in the trailer for season 2 of Picard, any role for Sisko in that story would likely be him teaching Picard about the nature of non-linear time, which is unfortunate.

Like I've already said though, I don't think Avery Brooks wouldn't come back unless it's a good role and a good story for the character. He just strikes me as way too thoughtful about the character and what he means for anything less than that.
 

Jeffapp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,248
DS9 was much more character driven and I enjoyed it more for that reason. I really enjoyed brooks and the way he commanded a scene. For that reason I can take seeing him on Picard that show was such a mess I don't think I'll watch season 2. I can't take Alex krutzman writing more crazy space god shit.
also the episode of ds9 where sisko is unstuck in time and the candy man plays jake is so fucking good.
 

Juraash

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,365
I wasn't the biggest fan of Picard, but I was fairly satisfied with the ending the gave to Data. I think it might have been the thing I found most successful about the show. It was as much closure for Picard as it was for me as a viewer. I'll even defend Nemesis to some degree, but I never felt like it delt with Data's death in a satisfactory way. So there's been kind of this hanging thread ever since that I was happy Picard took care of.

I also broadly agree that the way they end Sisko's story in DS9 is not a great look, unintentionally or not. And while I like DS9 a great deal, that is an issue that also has stuck with me since the show ended.

With all that said, and with my positive reception to the end of Data's story, I still don't have a great deal of faith that the show would do any justice to Sisko if they brought him back at all. I also tend to think that they won't and any hints at DS9 lore in Picard's study are winks and nods at best.

I think Sisko deserves a better end than he got in DS9 and a better one than the Picard writers are likely to cook up. Honestly, some offhand comment like "Sisko has been retired ever since Dukat's death" or something that implies his time with the Prophets was basically no time to us would be fine with me. I don't necessarily want, or need, them to go back and touch on all/most characters.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
I doubt that Brooks would be lured back with such a troupey part, but I can also imagine the writers of Season 1 of Picard reaching for exactly that. Since we're speaking of hypotheticals though, the idea I had about the series after they announced it would have been a much quieter, more introspective show about an accomplished man at the end of his life examining his legacy and what he's leaving behind. An episode or two focusing on Sisko would have been wholly appropriate in a show like that. For Picard, there was no bigger impact on his life than his time as Locutus, and that's a trauma that he shares with Sisko. There could be good, meaty drama mined from the two men finally coming to terms with that. At least for Picard, we've been shown over and over again that he's struggled dealing with it, while Sisko seemed to have somewhat dealt with it by the end of "Emissary", it's not something that's really touched on for the rest of the series.

Of course, with the storyline we've glimpsed in the trailer for season 2 of Picard, any role for Sisko in that story would likely be him teaching Picard about the nature of non-linear time, which is unfortunate.

We see in the trailer that the assimilation of Annika Hansen has somehow been prevented in the alternate timeline. What if the same is true of Jennifer Sisko?

I definitely feel like there's a story angle involving Ben Sisko in a such a storyline more organically, but I really don't expect it out of Star Trek: Picard. The cameo idea I wound up focusing on is partly because that's my best chance for his appearance to be a "talkie" focused on the drama of the meeting, and not some role where he's also a part of the overly-broad epicness that Nu Trek has been so desperate to capture, due to all the J.J. Abrams profits.

Bpu2zqH.png


I wasn't the biggest fan of Picard, but I was fairly satisfied with the ending the gave to Data. I think it might have been the thing I found most successful about the show. It was as much closure for Picard as it was for me as a viewer. I'll even defend Nemesis to some degree, but I never felt like it delt with Data's death in a satisfactory way. So there's been kind of this hanging thread ever since that I was happy Picard took care of.

I also broadly agree that the way they end Sisko's story in DS9 is not a great look, unintentionally or not. And while I like DS9 a great deal, that is an issue that also has stuck with me since the show ended.

With all that said, and with my positive reception to the end of Data's story, I still don't have a great deal of faith that the show would do any justice to Sisko if they brought him back at all. I also tend to think that they won't and any hints at DS9 lore in Picard's study are winks and nods at best.

I think Sisko deserves a better end than he got in DS9 and a better one than the Picard writers are likely to cook up. Honestly, some offhand comment like "Sisko has been retired ever since Dukat's death" or something that implies his time with the Prophets was basically no time to us would be fine with me. I don't necessarily want, or need, them to go back and touch on all/most characters.

People seem to not have any faith that the showrunners of Picard could tie up lingering DS9 threads and I get that. It's going to take televised Trek a long time to settle down a bit and stop trying to make every episode into a J.J. Abrams movie.

But on the other hand, I didn't like the direction practically any DS9 character was taken in the What We Left Behind theoretical eighth season pitch. Vedek Kira Nerys using Jem'Hadar as Bajoran troops? Julian Bashir the head of Section 31? Sad-looking Joseph Sisko-Yates apparently seeing his father for the first time? Yuk to all of it.

Maybe I'd like the Picard showrunners to fix up Sisko's end because I like what they did with Data's.

You and I seem to laregely agree on Nemesis. A few more talkie scenes and a few less vehicle action scene there and you could have a solid, worthy Star Trek movie. That final battle was really epic. But the cheat-out at the end with Data and B4 was just such a lame cop-out... one of the best things written in Star Trek: Picard was the fact that the transfer didn't take and B4 didn't go on to become Reborn Data and Have Adventures. He died. He didn't overwrite his younger prototype brother and aventure on in that body. That would have been contrary to his character, to do that.

Similarly you can see by comments in this thread that people don't even consider Sisko Star Trek's best dad, given that he left his wife and unborn kid at the end of the show. That's contrary to his character. I'd take a brief mention the way they mentioned how B4 didn't take Data's brain and recover, but of course I'd much rather see somethign good and meaty for Avery Brooks and Patrick Stewart to play off each other, one final time.
 
Nov 27, 2020
4,257
We see in the trailer that the assimilation of Annika Hansen has somehow been prevented in the alternate timeline. What if the same is true of Jennifer Sisko?
Interesting point that I hadn't considered, but…the reason I hadn't considered it is that one of my biggest fears about season 2 is that it's going to be a two season long mashup of "Tapestry" and "All Good Things…", with multiple time frames and "what could have been" shenanigans. I really hope that the writers approach this with a bit more imagination than just a remix of two of the best Picard/Q episodes.

That said…a glimpse into a life were Sisko never lost Jennifer, but is maybe aware that in having Jennifer he lost out on a life with Kassidy and their daughter, as well as all the experiences he had on DS9 might be compelling if done right.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,685
Sisko comes back, tells Picard he can't handle the existential angst of living in linear time again and asks Picard to kill him. Picard obliges immediately without a word.

Maybe I'd like the Picard showrunners to fix up Sisko's end because I like what they did with Data's.

You and I seem to laregely agree on Nemesis. A few more talkie scenes and a few less vehicle action scene there and you could have a solid, worthy Star Trek movie. That final battle was really epic. But the cheat-out at the end with Data and B4 was just such a lame cop-out... one of the best things written in Star Trek: Picard was the fact that the transfer didn't take and B4 didn't go on to become Reborn Data and Have Adventures. He died. He didn't overwrite his younger prototype brother and aventure on in that body. That would have been contrary to his character, to do that.

Similarly you can see by comments in this thread that people don't even consider Sisko Star Trek's best dad, given that he left his wife and unborn kid at the end of the show. That's contrary to his character. I'd take a brief mention the way they mentioned how B4 didn't take Data's brain and recover, but of course I'd much rather see somethign good and meaty for Avery Brooks and Patrick Stewart to play off each other, one final time.
Data's death in Picard was terrible with really poorly thought out ethical implications while aesthetically manipulating people's emotions so as to not really think about what was actually happening in that situation.

I didn't like his death in nemesis, but the B4 stuff was the smallest saving grace as that actually brings up interesting paths of exploration regarding the idea of what mortality is for a being such as Data and what it would mean. Forcing this antiquated notion of precious meaning in death is silly and I wish people writing these things could actually sit and think about what possibilities for coinintuity in being are out there. Star Trek has done that in interesting ways before, but Picard was like a regression into archaic thinking on the matter.
 
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Ducarmel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,363
I say just deal with the hole they wrote themselves into. I would not mind The Sisko being gone the whole time and everybody he left behind while angry or sad about the situation keep a brave face and doing their best to be the man that he was and help raise his daughter and grand kids and celebrate every opportunity to remember the moments they had with him.



My terrible Fan fiction idea.

He comes back because of time and space stuff, and what should be a happy moment is not. Sisko is not the man they knew and might be the reason behind whats going on. Picard and Sisko daughter must team up to bring back his humanity and end the threat to the quadrant.


Or he does not come back and the show is an exercise in dealing with loss by those who knew him maybe and thkse trying to live up to the idea of him like maybe his daughter is a star fleet officer and she can't do anything right because not matter what she does she can't live up to the legacy/legend of her last name.
 
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imbarkus

imbarkus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,645
We've argued this before Amnesty but there's no reason to think Data has any interest in trans-human continuity of consciousness when he's spent his whole existence trying to become more human, and even had explicit dialog about how he was comforted by a revelation that he might someday die.

Hopefully Picard can use the character of Soji to explore a character more interested in the unique benefits and identity of being a synthetic being... if they ever take the time to get around to writing some scenes involving characters talking about their feelings and ideas about the world and their place in it, etc.
 

Amnesty

Member
Nov 7, 2017
2,685
We've argued this before Amnesty but there's no reason to think Data has any interest in trans-human continuity of consciousness when he's spent his whole existence trying to become more human, and even had explicit dialog about how he was comforted by a revelation that he might someday die.

Hopefully Picard can use the character of Soji to explore a character more interested in the unique benefits and identity of being a synthetic being... if they ever take the time to get around to writing some scenes involving characters talking about their feelings and ideas about the world and their place in it, etc.
It isn't trans-human in the case of Data, since he is a different life form entirely - he couldn't be involved in any idea about expanding or altering our kind of human consciousness. Data can never be 'more human' because he isn't one, he can only expand the idea of what being a human is to other life forms, but by eradicating his existence he is no longer doing so. In equating mortality with the human, the idea is that the human can only be one thing and not another thing, which is what Data articulation of being human is in opposition to. He's not Pinnochio.

Even without that context, Picard still killed a being that was questionably even the 'real' Data and could have been another, new life form that was modelled on Data. He did so with no questions and without giving the being the chance to do the act itself if it so chose to. He had normal conversation with it to determine who or what it really was and didn't consider that even if it was Data that maybe an existential quandary isn't a valid reason to kill someone over. This is where the root of the ethical problems are located in that scenario. 'I'll kill this thing because it's asking me to die and looks like my friend' and doing so without hesitation is absurd if given any consideration. Coming from Picard, who is supposed to have an inquisitive and explorative nature to his mind, especially regarding different life forms, it's even worse.

The being comforted by mortality aspect of that one episode was contradictory to the other writing of his character in previous situations - especially since he couldn't possibly feel comforted at anything.
 

nenned

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,099
This new season of Picard seems to be about roads or paths not taken. The characters seem to be in different circumstances (i.e. Seven doesn't have her Borg eye piece and she appears to be married), but also somewhat aware that they are in different circumstances. My guess is Q breaks time for this reality to exist and Picard seeks out Guinan (who helped him in similar circumstances- Yesterday's Enterprise) to put things back the way they originally were. But what if in this new reality created by Q we learn that Sisko decided not to be with the profits?