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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
No, I'm talking about other button presses, as I've explained to you repeatedly. And, if you'd bothered to click the video, you'd have seen for yourself.

If that was your point, then the same applies to consoles. Different buttons have different latencies. Usually developers make the jump button take more time to react than shoot, for example. I saw the video and again, I'm seeing someone showing terrible latency. Without knowing exactly how his setup works I won't be able to point out where is the bottle neck is.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
If that was your point, then the same applies to consoles. Different buttons have different latencies. Usually developers make the jump button take more time to react than shoot, for example. I saw the video and again, I'm seeing someone showing terrible latency. Without knowing exactly how his setup works I won't be able to point out where is the bottle neck is.
Watch the video I linked so you stop sounding ridiculous.
 

Tmespe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
No, I'm talking about other button presses, as I've explained to you repeatedly. And, if you'd bothered to click the video, you'd have seen for yourself.
You are the one being obtuse to be fair. That video is very low effort and terrible. It's clear they have some Network issues. As Alucard said, they are several factors involved. They don't provide any info on their setup. I can find 20 other videos showing no such issues. See digital foundry for a well documented and thorough review. But you probably won't, because that doesn't fit your narrative.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Watch the video I linked so you stop sounding ridiculous.

Dude I saw the video. This is a very good example of how terrible it can get under the wrong conditions. I understand he was in an office environment, so you can imagine how many people can be downloading something at any given second. This would explain how the input lag behaves as a roller coaster in his case. What I don't understand is that when I talk about cloud gaming services, I very clearly describe all of the factors that can go wrong for people, so this video only shows an example of the situations I'm describing.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
You are the one being obtuse to be fair. That video is very low effort and terrible. It's clear they have some Network issues. As Alucard said, they are several factors involved. They don't provide any info on their setup. I can find 20 other videos showing no such issues. See digital foundry for a well documented and thorough review. But you probably won't, because that doesn't fit your narrative.
I've watched digital foundry already. Their setup is as close to best case scenario as possible. It's not in any way indicative of what a random Stadia user would have.
 

DavidDesu

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,718
Glasgow, Scotland
The minute it became clear you were expected to pay full price for games AND a sub just to play them in decent quality (which is arguable for some titles anyway) it was doomed. Netflix of gaming or bust. It really is that simple. You can forgive some slight lag, worse visuals compared to a console, when only paying a nominal fee for access. What they offered is only fractionally cheaper than getting a console, ultimately, and that's not even getting into data caps issues which seems to be a huge problem in the US.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
Dude I saw the video. This is a very good example of how terrible it can get under the wrong conditions. I understand he was in an office environment, so you can imagine how many people can be downloading something at any given second. This would explain how the input lag behaves as a roller coaster in his case. What I don't understand is that when I talk about cloud gaming services, I very clearly describe all of the factors that can go wrong for people, so this video only shows an example of the situations I'm describing.
Then why were you bringing up multiple people and the difference between jumping and shooting button latencies if you'd seen the video?

It's one of the few videos showing a realistic networking scenario instead of best possible conditions.
 

spad3

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,125
California
I was skeptical as fuck at first, but man, being able to play destiny 2 at work during lunch/breaks without the need of a god-tier PC or a console is fucking fantastic. That alone changed my entire mindset on Stadia. Like I could go to any computer browser, plug in my controller and start playing. Fucking phenomenal.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
The minute it became clear you were expected to pay full price for games AND a sub just to play them in decent quality (which is arguable for some titles anyway) it was doomed. Netflix of gaming or bust. It really is that simple. You can forgive some slight lag, worse visuals compared to a console, when only paying a nominal fee for access. What they offered is only fractionally cheaper than getting a console, ultimately, and that's not even getting into data caps issues which seems to be a huge problem in the US.

1. "Netflix for games" means AAA games aren't available on day 1, I don't see how this is acceptable.

2. We already know there will be a variety of subscription gaming libraries available through Stadia starting with Uplay+.
 

Tmespe

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,459
I've watched digital foundry already. Their setup is as close to best case scenario as possible. It's not in any way indicative of what a random Stadia user would have.
Neither is the video you posted. There are plenty of people who have it. There are not many examples of people having issues with latency. Rather the opposite.
 

adobot

Member
Mar 19, 2019
165
I mean, you wan watch as the reviewer presses to button... Unless you think the reviewer recorded video and then faked their input?
No I'm not saying it was faked. Input latency will depend on a lot of things, and from the looks of that video he was probably using it behind a corporate VPN at the office, which could be the problem, or something else could have led to a less than ideal connection.

I've had my Stadia since launch, and played for maybe 3-4 hours total. The current game library is really lacking and doesn't offer anything I haven't already played at higher settings so the platform in its current iteration is really not for me. In those 3-4 hours I've only had one 3-5 second instance where I felt noticeable lag, all other times, it's performance was indistinguishable from my PS4 Pro or PC.

I think Google nailed down the tech, but Stadia's current offerings (both in game library, features, player base, etc.) are piss poor and I will not be investing any money into it until they get their shit together.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Then why were you bringing up multiple people and the difference between jumping and shooting button latencies if you'd seen the video?

It's one of the few videos showing a realistic networking scenario instead of best possible conditions.

I understood you were talking about multiple people. You seem to define an office network environment as a realistic and common place where people will use cloud gaming services and someone at his house reporting a good experience is somehow the best possible condition? What we should all be asking about every time someone reports a good or bad experience, are questions like what is your ping to the server? were you using a wifi or wireless connection? Chromecast Ultra or PC? office environment or your house? and other similar questions. These are the types of questions that leads to the truth and something I will try asking more myself to get a better idea.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
I was skeptical as fuck at first, but man, being able to play destiny 2 at work during lunch/breaks without the need of a god-tier PC or a console is fucking fantastic. That alone changed my entire mindset on Stadia. Like I could go to any computer browser, plug in my controller and start playing. Fucking phenomenal.

Can you share the ping you get while playing from your work?
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I understood you were talking about multiple people. You seem to define an office environment as a realistic environment where people will use cloud gaming services and someone at his house reporting a good experience is somehow the best possible condition? What we should all be asking about every time someone reports a good or bad experience, are questions like what is your ping to the server? were you using a wifi or wireless connection? Chromecast Ultra or PC? office environment or your house? and other similar questions. These are the types of questions that leads to the truth and something I will try asking more myself to get a better idea.

This isn't the problem. I'm a network engineer. If you sit at home, you're not alone on the transportation network. If you're in an office, you're sharing a bigger network, but network level load isn't the issue here. The transportation network is the core of what Nostremitus is trying to get at. If you're in an office, you might share a bigger level two network with more people, but you're still sharing the level three network with as many people at home or at an office. You have different use cases in an office and at home, of course, which could theoretically change the experience, but let's look aside from that, at the transportation network.

On the transportation network on the router level, you'll have either BGP or OSPF routing protocols to find routes for your traffic. Without getting down into everything, even pretending you're tied directly to your ISP's router with no one else connected to the same router (and mind you, a typical router normally hosts thousands of users), you still have these routing protocols that are going to take care of traffic.

Those protocols ensure that your traffic is handled pretty fairly. The same protocol is the reason why TCP/IP have sequence numbers: Your route will vary. A lot.

Now, If you're on Google Fiber, they might incorporate headers that mark their traffic in a way that you get a prioritized static and short route. But probably in most, if not all, use cases, you're not in control of what goes on when your traffic goes out by itself on the great internet. These factors will contribute to varying ping. I don't know how Stadia handles compression, but compression is normally based off of a complete image, so it might be that if you're missing too many packets in a image, you can't decode it, so you'll have to wait for the whole image to arrive. That might make things variable.

So even if you compare this all with a somewhat laggy TV - and I can remember the time when I had a TV with 100ms input lag - you'd perhaps start to think Stadia would work well if you have a low latency screen, for the normal consumer. I don't think so, and I think a big part of that is the variable response time. Frame pacing, and even meta-frame pacing, like pacing of several frames, will be much more variable on Stadia. That's why one button press may have 100ms, while the next may have 130ms. Perhaps even 200ms in less optimal situations.

It's just one of those factors why I can't get excited about this platform.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
Got it, when you say "AND THEN OTHERS", you are talking about the same person but calling them others. I will take that into account when I read future post from you. The funny thing is that I still don't get what you didn't agree with when I said "Even on consoles the input latency is not rock solid, this is why you always need to take several measurements to get an average. See the 50ms advantage Stadia has on average over the same game on Xbox One X. If you have played any online shooters you should know how someone with a 50ms advantage over you would get more time to react and shoot.".
Why are you licking google's boots so hard in this thread
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Got it, when you say "AND THEN OTHERS", you are talking about the same person but calling them others. I will take that into account when I read future post from you. The funny thing is that I still don't get what you didn't agree with when I said "Even on consoles the input latency is not rock solid, this is why you always need to take several measurements to get an average. See the 50ms advantage Stadia has on average over the same game on Xbox One X. If you have played any online shooters you should know how someone with a 50ms advantage over you would get more time to react and shoot.".

What game are you talking about, and what source do you have for this? I'm genuinely curious.
 

Deleted member 16365

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,127
I've been playing ACO and Destiny on Stadia since it launched last week. With the exception of Destiny not having a lot of players and ACO occasionally having that thing where the quality dips for a fraction of a second I haven't had any bad experiences. In fact those moment in ACO were one of the few times I was reminded the game was streaming as the experience was seamless enough that it could have easily been a console game. I can only hope that once the service really takes off there will be a number of great games to play, as their launch lineup was a little sparse. Wasn't a huge deal to me as those two will keep me preoccupied until the early 2020 games come out, and the only reason I wouldn't play Cyberpunk on this is if it doesn't release at the same time as the PS4.

I will say, however, that I don't have a data cap and thankfully so. Since launch I've transferred 100GB to my chromecast ultra. That doesn't include the times I've played on my laptop because the TV was unavailable. I completely understand how 10% of a 1TB cap in a weekend could turn off even the biggest Stadia enthusiast.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
This isn't the problem. I'm a network engineer. If you sit at home, you're not alone on the transportation network. If you're in an office, you're sharing a bigger network, but network level load isn't the issue here. The transportation network is the core of what Nostremitus is trying to get at. If you're in an office, you might share a bigger level two network with more people, but you're still sharing the level three network with as many people at home or at an office. You have different use cases in an office and at home, of course, which could theoretically change the experience, but let's look aside from that, at the transportation network.

Thank you for the explanation. This is the only thing I'm talking about, the different scenarios that can happen that lead to good or bad experiences. It is obvious we are getting both cases. What I want to know is what were the conditions on each one of the good and bad reviews, so I can have a much better idea of what is the threshold to describe Stadia as a good or bad experience.

On the transportation network on the router level, you'll have either BGP or OSPF routing protocols to find routes for your traffic. Without getting down into everything, even pretending you're tied directly to your ISP's router with no one else connected to the same router (and mind you, a typical router normally hosts thousands of users), you still have these routing protocols that are going to take care of traffic.

Those protocols ensure that your traffic is handled pretty fairly. The same protocol is the reason why TCP/IP have sequence numbers: Your route will vary. A lot.

Now, If you're on Google Fiber, they might incorporate headers that mark their traffic in a way that you get a prioritized static and short route. But probably in most, if not all, use cases, you're not in control of what goes on when your traffic goes out by itself on the great internet. These factors will contribute to varying ping. I don't know how Stadia handles compression, but compression is normally based off of a complete image, so it might be that if you're missing too many packets in a image, you can't decode it, so you'll have to wait for the whole image to arrive. That might make things variable.

On this side as well I have seen people report having a very stable image with only seconds of where the image downgrades in quality after hours of playing. Others report just a permanent low quality blurry image.


So even if you compare this all with a somewhat laggy TV - and I can remember the time when I had a TV with 100ms input lag - you'd perhaps start to think Stadia would work well if you have a low latency screen, for the normal consumer. I don't think so, and I think a big part of that is the variable response time. Frame pacing, and even meta-frame pacing, like pacing of several frames, will be much more variable on Stadia. That's why one button press may have 100ms, while the next may have 130ms. Perhaps even 200ms in less optimal situations.

It's just one of those factors why I can't get excited about this platform.

Work well is very ambiguous. Let's say that someone that does have a TV with 50ms of input latency will be exposed to more lag than another person playing on a 1ms monitor. There are of course variables that are completely out of the control of the user and you should definitely not use Stadia if you are one of those users that reports a permanent bad experience. The thing is that we have also seen reviews from Digital Foundry and others right here on this thread reporting a more stable experience on regards to image quality and latency, or at least close to it.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Why are you licking google's boots so hard in this thread

OK, let's try this again, but this time share something that contributes to the thread. Ask something, say with what you don't agree exactly. Something more than a low effort post that has so little information on it, that I don't even know what you're talking about.
 

Datajoy

use of an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,081
Angola / Zaire border region.
I have good enough internet to be intrigued by Stadia, if they didn't have the ridiculous pricing model that they do. A Netflix for games from Google would be awesome, too bad we got this instead.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
What game are you talking about, and what source do you have for this? I'm genuinely curious.

I guess you are asking for examples on how there can be variance on input lag, when pressing the same button on a local console. This is something that is mentioned on the latency test on Red Dead 2 by DF, but this is not something uncommon and you can see several examples below.

@3:11




e3068aac93a8f528b1f3dj5jss.png
 
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toy_brain

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,207
I've seen videos of people pressing jump in Destiny 2 and sometimes it's almost immediate, and then others there's more than a second delay.

youtu.be

We tested Google Stadia. The input lag is horrendous. | Launcher Reviews

Editor’s note: This video incorrectly states that we asked for Google for comment on the input lag time. At the time of publication, we had not asked for com...
The first time I used Stadia I had this exact same issue.
What the video fails to show you is that the in-game menus (which are also still being streamed the exact same way) are totally lag free. So.... that's kinda odd right?
I quit out of D2 and re-loaded it, and the massive lag was gone.

Theory: There are some dodgy Stadia blades out there somewhere with rogue background processes running, which is killing game performance in some odd ways. Or its a virtualisation problem of some sort.
I've been using Stadia quite a bit these past few days, and run into this problem 3 times now. Twice in Destiny 2, and once in Gylt. When Gylt had the issue it did seem very much tied to performance, as the lag mostly happened in more detailed areas, and in other areas it was almost nonexistent.

I've been playing a bunch of D2 this evening and its been a really great experience. Most of the time I forget its a video stream. I had one 5-minute period when things would get a bit macro-blocky for a few seconds, but the rest of my 3-hour stint on it was flawless.
 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
The first time I used Stadia I had this exact same issue.
What the video fails to show you is that the in-game menus (which are also still being streamed the exact same way) are totally lag free. So.... that's kinda odd right?
I quit out of D2 and re-loaded it, and the massive lag was gone.

Theory: There are some dodgy Stadia blades out there somewhere with rogue background processes running, which is killing game performance in some odd ways. Or its a virtualisation problem of some sort.
I've been using Stadia quite a bit these past few days, and run into this problem 3 times now. Twice in Destiny 2, and once in Gylt. When Gylt had the issue it did seem very much tied to performance, as the lag mostly happened in more detailed areas, and in other areas it was almost nonexistent.

I've been playing a bunch of D2 this evening and its been a really great experience. Most of the time I forget its a video stream. I had one 5-minute period when things would get a bit macro-blocky for a few seconds, but the rest of my 3-hour stint on it was flawless.
Ok, that's interesting. I hadn't considered being paired with a blade running background processes. You'd think they'd have something in place to prevent that. I do wonder if they've split some of the Vega 56s into multiple virtual GPUs and if a power hungry game is running on the same GPU in a virtualized environment if it you affect the performance of other users.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Ok, that's interesting. I hadn't considered being paired with a blade running background processes. You'd think they'd have something in place to prevent that. I do wonder if they've split some of the Vega 56s into multiple virtual GPUs and if a power hungry game is running on the same GPU in a virtualized environment if it you affect the performance of other users.

If they are, then this is something that changed from what they said before.

"Cloud server GPUs can be virtualised, their resources spread between multiple users - but Google has told us that this does not happen on the Stadia set-up, meaning the full 10.7TF per player instance."

 

Nostremitus

Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,777
Alabama
If they are, then this is something that changed from what they said before.

"Cloud server GPUs can be virtualised, their resources spread between multiple users - but Google has told us that this does not happen on the Stadia set-up, meaning the full 10.7TF per player instance."

A full Vega 56 should do much better than 1080 medium settings in Destiny 2. That's worse performance than my RX 480.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
A full Vega 56 should do much better than 1080 medium settings in Destiny 2. That's worse performance than my RX 480.

I agree and this is something that must be explained by Google. I understand how you might want to virtualize a game like Shovel Knight, but on a game where there is room to keep increasing the graphics settings and still keep a locked 60fps, then the full power of a Vega 56 must be there to do it.
 

Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,419
California
I play Destiny 2 at 1440p/60 max settings on my Vega 56, it absolutely can do a lot better than it currently is. Linux drivers aren't a great excuse, either - AMD's Linux drivers are actually really good these days.
 

DOATag

Member
Oct 25, 2017
466
Canada, eh?
Got my code today...

Its ok, like latency seems fine, no issues with lag...

Biggest issue though is just the graphical fidelity. Ive had no issues with pixelation or low quality video but there is just some graphical issues in games. For 10+ gflops of power, my 1080 blows this out of the water. Weird banding (compression artifacts maybe?) in Destiny and stuff, just meh. Also the fact I cant play this on my phone just seems insane (Galaxy S8), i know this isnt new news but it hurts the usability of this product until its added
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I guess you are asking for examples on how there can be variance on input lag, when pressing the same button on a local console. This is something that is mentioned on the latency test on Red Dead 2 by DF, but this is not something uncommon and you can see several examples below.

I was thinking about what games have 50 ms lower lag on Stadia than Xbox.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
On this side as well I have seen people report having a very stable image with only seconds of where the image downgrades in quality after hours of playing. Others report just a permanent low quality blurry image.

That's a bandwidth issue and that's fine. I'm thinking more about the variations that are inherent in networking. If the time it takes to get you the next frame varies with 10-30 ms, that'll lead to terrible frame pacing. Now, this is all just conjecture, since I have seen no one talking about it, and haven't tried it myself. I hope Nexus will tackle this soon.

Work well is very ambiguous. Let's say that someone that does have a TV with 50ms of input latency will be exposed to more lag than another person playing on a 1ms monitor. There are of course variables that are completely out of the control of the user and you should definitely not use Stadia if you are one of those users that reports a permanent bad experience. The thing is that we have also seen reviews from Digital Foundry and others right here on this thread reporting a more stable experience on regards to image quality and latency, or at least close to it.

Remember that those 1ms monitors refer to pixel response time. Lowest input latency of a monitor is about 15ms, and very good latency on a monitor is about 20ms. My point was that I started playing Street Fighter when I had a TV that was easily 100ms input lag. I managed fairly well. My monitor wasn't holding me back. I wasn't that good. However, I know I have played with that much lag for years, maybe I could get accustomed to it again. That's where my thinking interferes. Not only would the latency be high with Stadia, but it would likely also be fluctuating. That's why I'm skeptical.

But again, that's conjecture. The Nexus review had fairly consistent numbers. It may also mean that Stadia has to hold back one imagine and getting the next, so it knows it can keep up frame pacing on a stable-enough connection. Might be part of their tech. Who knows.
 

Bufbaf

Don't F5!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,669
Hamburg, Germany
Red Dead 2 as measured by Digital Foundry
2e0d10bd-2a5d-401e-b509-c89adb794632.jpg


As a bonus here is Shadow of the Tomb Raider as measured by Digital Foundry. Compare the 60fps version of Tomb Raider on Stadia to the 30fps Tomb Raider running on Xbox One X.
Tomb.jpg

I mean, isn't "measuring" this pretty pointless since it's heavily dependant on your connection (and if I'm not mistaken, DF was mentioning in their last vid they're testing with a 200MB connection)?
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
Red Dead 2 as measured by Digital Foundry


As a bonus here is Shadow of the Tomb Raider as measured by Digital Foundry. Compare the 60fps version of Tomb Raider on Stadia to the 30fps Tomb Raider running on Xbox One X.



...Why is the PC running triple buffered..??? But, sure. I agree that that's a source for a Stadia game being better than an Xbox One X.

Also, why would I compare the Tomb Raider's 30 fps with Stadia's 60? Lower FPS means higher latency, inherently. That's not a fair comparison. Agree?

EDIT: I can't say I place a lot of trust with the DF review so far. I'll keep watching the video, but someone that's baffled to get 33Mbps to a Stadia node, and not his normal 300Mbps to a close speed-test server doesn't bode well for his technical prowess. I won't write it off based on that. I'll keep watching.

I mean, isn't "measuring" this pretty pointless since it's heavily dependant on your connection (and if I'm not mistaken, DF was mentioning in their last vid they're testing with a 200MB connection)?

Not at all. Unless you are at Google's headquarters when you do it, or live ridiculously close to a Stadia node, you're gonna get somewhat representative results. Mostly in the US, I'm guessing, since they likely have a good set of centers there. I don't know Google's cloud locations. What's interesting is what response time Stadia can get. Stadia can get more centers, and internet will keep getting better. It shows what Stadia might be. It's not that relevant for me judging the service as a whole if someone living far away has a bad time.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
That's a bandwidth issue and that's fine. I'm thinking more about the variations that are inherent in networking. If the time it takes to get you the next frame varies with 10-30 ms, that'll lead to terrible frame pacing. Now, this is all just conjecture, since I have seen no one talking about it, and haven't tried it myself. I hope Nexus will tackle this soon.

I have seen people with 200Mbps or even 1Gbps and still report image degradation for a few seconds, so something else seems to be going on. The network factors that are outside the hands of the person playing will always be there, but after reading and viewing several reviews, I have seen several people reporting a stable connection most of the time, so it doesn't seem to be a factor that affects everyone the same.


Remember that those 1ms monitors refer to pixel response time. Lowest input latency of a monitor is about 15ms, and very good latency on a monitor is about 20ms. My point was that I started playing Street Fighter when I had a TV that was easily 100ms input lag. I managed fairly well. My monitor wasn't holding me back. I wasn't that good. However, I know I have played with that much lag for years, maybe I could get accustomed to it again. That's where my thinking interferes. Not only would the latency be high with Stadia, but it would likely also be fluctuating. That's why I'm skeptical.

But again, that's conjecture. The Nexus review had fairly consistent numbers. It may also mean that Stadia has to hold back one imagine and getting the next, so it knows it can keep up frame pacing on a stable-enough connection. Might be part of their tech. Who knows.

Sure, that was just an exaggerated example to prove a point. I go a lot to https://displaylag.com/display-database/ to see how display lag behaves on different models. If you want a real example, I used to play and enjoy my PS360 games on a television with 48ms of latency, I now have a 21ms TV. 120hz TVs should also help to reduce latency even more.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I have seen people with 200Mbps or even 1Gbps and still report image degradation for a few seconds, so something else seems to be going on. The network factors that are outside the hands of the person playing will always be there, but after reading and viewing several reviews, I have seen several people reporting a stable connection most of the time, so it doesn't seem to be a factor that affects everyone the same.

That's the service deciding you're struggling with that quality, and downgrading. It makes sense, and is probably on the second-to-second scale. The frame pacing is faster than that, though.

Sure, that was just an exaggerated example to prove a point. I go a lot to https://displaylag.com/display-database/ to see how display lag behaves on different models. If you want a real example, I used to play and enjoy my PS360 games on a television with 48ms of latency, I now have a 21ms TV. 120hz TVs should also help to reduce latency even more.

Exactly. So if you had a 70ms screen before, and switch to a 20ms, at first I'd be inclined to think that Stadia's latency might be negligible. However, taking routing protocols into account, I would still feel weary playing on Stadia. The only point here is that lag and latency inherent with Stadia has more to say than just input response time. Frame pacing has turned into a benchmark tool, and is used by tech channels like Nexus with almost more importance than FPS, since it has so much to say about how the game feels. So if Stadia inherently has frame pacing issues due to networking, it would be another blow for Stadia. At least in my book.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
I mean, isn't "measuring" this pretty pointless since it's heavily dependant on your connection (and if I'm not mistaken, DF was mentioning in their last vid they're testing with a 200MB connection)?

This helps someone like me or you calculate based on our own ping to the nearest Stadia server, what will be the input lag on a game like Red Dead 2. Internet Bandwidth is not equal to latency, what is important to know is their ping. There are a bunch of factors that will affect how high is your input latency and ping is just one of them.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
...Why is the PC running triple buffered..??? But, sure. I agree that that's a source for a Stadia game being better than an Xbox One X.

Also, why would I compare the Tomb Raider's 30 fps with Stadia's 60? Lower FPS means higher latency, inherently. That's not a fair comparison. Agree?

EDIT: I can't say I place a lot of trust with the DF review so far. I'll keep watching the video, but someone that's baffled to get 33Mbps to a Stadia node, and not his normal 300Mbps to a close speed-test server doesn't bode well for his technical prowess. I won't write it off based on that. I'll keep watching.

I guess they wanted to have equal settings for the PC and Stadia version. If you see the PC only latency test, they do compare it with double buffering enabled and as you would expect, it reduces the latency by 16ms. On regards to comparing Tomb Raider 60fps on Stadia to the 30fps version on Xbox, it was just to show how higher framerate lowers input latency. I have discussed for hours here with people that said this was not possible. You don't seem to be the type of person that would say that, but I'm just used to pointing that out every time it comes up. I more than respect the people at DF, so far they haven't given me any reasons to not trust their integrity.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Exactly. So if you had a 70ms screen before, and switch to a 20ms, at first I'd be inclined to think that Stadia's latency might be negligible. However, taking routing protocols into account, I would still feel weary playing on Stadia. The only point here is that lag and latency inherent with Stadia has more to say than just input response time. Frame pacing has turned into a benchmark tool, and is used by tech channels like Nexus with almost more importance than FPS, since it has so much to say about how the game feels. So if Stadia inherently has frame pacing issues due to networking, it would be another blow for Stadia. At least in my book.

Frame pacing is definitely important too, but personally I haven't seen many examples of this being a big issue on the good opinion/scoring reviews.
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823

@13:05 - this might be one of those network related frame pacing issues I was talking about. There's little to suggest streaming of new assets at the point where it stutters in the video.

Also, around 13:40 and onwards, riding around, there's constant frame pacing issues with what's shown at my screen. I don't know if this is DF just trusting their tool without questioning it, or if there's an issue with the video that was uploaded. But around 13:40 there, it is not a constant 16ms frame pacing, that's for sure. Even when the capture is reporting 60 fps. If that's just Stadia poorly rebeaming or something while not actually being able to 30 fps, I don't know.

And I can't find that latency information in this video. Was it from another video?

EDIT: Never mind. Found it.
Ed-edit: Wait wait wait. The footage is of him depressing a TRIGGER on the controller?? That's NOT reliable. It has to be a binary button that you actually know when is being triggered.

I guess they wanted to have equal settings for the PC and Stadia version. If you see the PC only latency test, they do compare it with double buffering enable and as you would expect, it reduces the latency by 16ms. On regards to comparing Tomb Raider 60fps on Stadia to the 30fps version on Xbox, it was just to show how higher framerate lowers input latency. I have discussed for hours here with people that said this was not possible. You don't seem to be the type of person that would say that, but I'm just used to pointing that out every time it comes up. I more than respect the people at DF, so far they haven't given me any reasons to trust their integrity.

Oh. It seemed like you used it to argue for Stadia having lower input than Tomb Raider. Yes, by definition, going from 60 to 30fps will incur you 16-32ms of lag.
 
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Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
@13:05 - this might be one of those network related frame pacing issues I was talking about. There's little to suggest streaming of new assets at the point where it stutters in the video.

Also, around 13:40 and onwards, riding around, there's constant frame pacing issues with what's shown at my screen. I don't know if this is DF just trusting their tool without questioning it, or if there's an issue with the video that was uploaded. But around 13:40 there, it is not a constant 16ms frame pacing, that's for sure. Even when the capture is reporting 60 fps. If that's just Stadia poorly rebeaming or something while not actually being able to 30 fps, I don't know.

And I can't find that latency information in this video. Was it from another video?



Oh. It seemed like you used it to argue for Stadia having lower input than Tomb Raider. Yes, by definition, going from 60 to 30fps will incur you 16-32ms of lag.

The @13:05 video, only talks about the console and PC versions.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
I play Destiny 2 at 1440p/60 max settings on my Vega 56, it absolutely can do a lot better than it currently is. Linux drivers aren't a great excuse, either - AMD's Linux drivers are actually really good these days.

Yeah, Vulkan performance comparisons between Windows and Linux are basically identical. My guess the port from DX11 to Vulkan was problematic and they went really conservative with the settings to make up for it.

I've been asking over and over, but I really want to know if Google is willing to use Wine/Proton on the server side. In many cases, it does a better job translating DX11 to Vulkan than native ports.

Come to think of it... i'm gonna try Destiny 2 with Proton tonight. I even have a Vega 56 ;)
 

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
Funny to see that the user that defends stadia the most hasnt even tested it since its not supported here in Dominican Republic, and probably never will (hell we dont even have psnow support here, or xbox live/psn/nintendo network for that matter, we have to create accounts saying we live in another place where those services are supported).
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
The @13:05 video, only talks about the console and PC versions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6y4MnlFLNE @ 13:05 is about Stadia. It's a huge 200ms frame pacing spike. It might be due to networking.

Also, I have very big issues with the DF source for showing that Stadia has less input lag than Xbox One X. He's comparing a 60 fps Stadia stream to a 30 fps stream from the game. He's using depressing an analog trigger, which has a huge travel, and would inherently vary with easily 15-30ms in depression speed alone, to measure to an even less accurately and dependable action in game. It's an unfair basis, since the Xbox was in 30fps mode, and it's a terrible way of measuring input lag.

I also don't trust their fps meter, since the image shows clear frame pacing issues while reportedly being at 60fps

So it's another case of comparing 30 fps to 60 fps.

Now, I'm not gonna keep bothering you about this, but I don't think there's any foundation to say that Stadia has less lag than an Xbox at this stage.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6y4MnlFLNE @ 13:05 is about Stadia. It's a huge 200ms frame pacing spike. It might be due to networking.

Also, I have very big issues with the DF source for showing that Stadia has less input lag than Xbox One X. He's comparing a 60 fps Stadia stream to a 30 fps stream from the game. He's using depressing an analog trigger, which has a huge travel, and would inherently vary with easily 15-30ms in depression speed alone, to measure to an even less accurately and dependable action in game. It's an unfair basis, since the Xbox was in 30fps mode, and it's a terrible way of measuring input lag.

I also don't trust their fps meter, since the image shows clear frame pacing issues while reportedly being at 60fps

So it's another case of comparing 30 fps to 60 fps.

Now, I'm not gonna keep bothering you about this, but I don't think there's any foundation to say that Stadia has less lag than an Xbox at this stage.

I see what you mean. Yes, they had a lag spike. There is no way to increase the framerate on the Xbox One X version, also remember that every time they measure the input lag is based on an average. They measure framerate and frame pacing on separate blocks, don't know if you saw that. Weird to see that Digital Foundry seems to be new to you, you can definitely trust their numbers, they have been doing this for years.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Funny to see that the user that defends stadia the most hasnt even tested it since its not supported here in Dominican Republic, and probably never will (hell we dont even have psnow support here, or xbox live/psn/nintendo network for that matter, we have to create accounts saying we live in another place where those services are supported).

Not relevant in the slightest to talk about how a cloud gaming service works for those that do have it available. Puerto Rico does have oficial Stadia support, GeForce Now is not blocked as well, so there you go.
 
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selo

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,108
I think I would be in on this if they would also let me download the game to play it offline when I upgrade my PC eventually (or when Google kills this)
 

Septimius

Member
Oct 25, 2017
823
I see what you mean. Yes, they had a lag spike. There is no way to increase the framerate on the Xbox One X version, also remember that every time they measure the input lag is based on an average. They measure framerate and frame pacing on separate blocks, don't know if you saw that. Weird to see that Digital Foundry seems to be new to you, you can definitely trust their numbers, they have been doing this for years.

DF isn't new to me at all. They're just not my source for technical deep dive. I rely on the likes of Nexus, who really know their stuff. In this video, I don't get the feeling that they really know what's going on. Anyway, Stadia has a 30fps mode, so it would be comparable to measure against that. It's not like they didn't have the possibility.

Also, in a game where you can do stuff with binary buttons, not analog triggers, and elicit actions that are way easier to measure, their measurement technique seems just very flawed. I didn't get why the numbers were around 400ms of lag, until I realized it was "from the button was pressed, until the gun shot". It's also leaving a ton of variables as to how Stadia was even used. Chromecast? PC? Wired controller? Wired chromecast? Wired controller on the PC? Same controller for both? Etc etc.

Anyway, disregarding all that, the Stadia version is 60 fps, and the Xbox is 30. Even if all measurements were done perfectly, there's nothing to say that Stadia has lower input lag than an Xbox.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
DF isn't new to me at all. They're just not my source for technical deep dive. I rely on the likes of Nexus, who really know their stuff. In this video, I don't get the feeling that they really know what's going on. Anyway, Stadia has a 30fps mode, so it would be comparable to measure against that. It's not like they didn't have the possibility.

Also, in a game where you can do stuff with binary buttons, not analog triggers, and elicit actions that are way easier to measure, their measurement technique seems just very flawed. I didn't get why the numbers were around 400ms of lag, until I realized it was "from the button was pressed, until the gun shot". It's also leaving a ton of variables as to how Stadia was even used. Chromecast? PC? Wired controller? Wired chromecast? Wired controller on the PC? Same controller for both? Etc etc.

Anyway, disregarding all that, the Stadia version is 60 fps, and the Xbox is 30. Even if all measurements were done perfectly, there's nothing to say that Stadia has lower input lag than an Xbox.

They had already measured the PC version of Red Dead and the input lag is similar to the Xbox One X version at the same framerate. The Stadia results by themselves are also consistent with the PC version running at 60fps. Either way it it's still valuable information to compare the 60fps Stadia version to the locked 30fps Xbox One X version. I don't see how you could say that there is nothing to say that Stadia has lower input lag than the Xbox One X version, when you can see their numbers just as well as I do. You might want to find numbers that show different results doing a similar test, I have tried looking but so far I haven't seen any.