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Oct 25, 2017
3,396
Excpet I'd argue between the two, WiiU is a far superior product. WiiU has glaring issues obviously, but at the core, the idea of a home console with a 2nd screen, and games it offered (within its small library) are great. I get that this is all subjective, but for me, the value proposition of Stadia is just a non-starter.
 

p3n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
650
Has Google said there won't be ads on Stadia at all?

There will be ads. On your Android smartphone. On your Chromecast. In your fucking Google Chrome browser. All targeted through your usage of Stadia. Will they display ads directly through Stadia? I bet you they will sooner or later. "Rent this dynamic texture in GTA6! Reach your customers directly!"
 

noesch

Member
Oct 31, 2017
273
Southern Germany
Yes, games that's require an online connection usually require online to work. What about single player games like Doom Eternal?



Are you serious with this? Internet problems are common. Power going out is not.

I just wanted to state that this is a problem already. A lot of people play multiplayer games only. The most popular games on PC and Console are all online multiplayer.

Concerning the internet problems vs power failure. I think its pretty balanced around here. Both are very rare.
 

JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,211
Texas
Okay, since you do: explain the appeal. Who is it for, exactly? The person who likes to play games, wants the best quality, does not want to play on local hardware, does not want to own games, wants to play on the go, but only on limited devices, with an additional controller, and only on Wifi?

It's for people who want to play AAA titles at 4k60 max settings but don't want to shell out the money to build a PC that would be able to accomplish that locally. Seems pretty obvious to me.

I guess there's also the lower tier. I don't really see the point of that one personally. I guess it's cheaper than buying a console.
 

Fatoy

Member
Mar 13, 2019
7,220
I'm a streaming believer, but the way Stadia is being marketed and sold is a mess.

The trouble with Stadia is that it doesn't have first-mover advantage, and nether is it a fascinating engineering challenge that Google's engineers have solved ahead of anyone else - which is the kind of stuff they're actually good at selling.

If you think about it, Google's most-used consumer services were all either first or near-first (Gmail and Android), or they represented such potent engineering progress that they basically sold themselves - i.e. search, Maps, and Photos. Stadia is neither of these things. There are at least three (soon to be four) viable game streaming platforms that already have apps for a variety of different devices. And the actual technical portion of game streaming is as good as solved already, bar some refinement for input processing and latency reduction.

This puts Google in a position I don't think they've ever thrived in: they're doing something several people have already done, entering an entrenched market with no prior experience, and they can't even say they're doing anything that unique, technically speaking. I believe this is why the messaging around Stadia is so muddled: it's not doing anything new. I think this is also why you get Google engineers talking about things like using machine learning to predict inputs to achieve "negative latency," because that's just the kind of mode Google is comfortable talking in, so they fall back to it when they don't have anything else to say.

And when Google did get creative and start touting the cross-device benefits of Stadia, it then turned out it won't work on most smartphones, and its wireless controller won't be wireless. So that was hardly a marketing coup.

Couple all this to the fact that Stadia - unlike PSNow or GeForce Now or Shadow, or XCloud when it launches - is also launching with an entirely new ecosystem, with a new storefront, new friends lists, and the need to port games to a new fixed platform.

I'd love for one of the existing streaming services to really hit the mainstream soon, but Stadia just has far too steep a hill to climb - especially when you consider that Google seem to have no idea how to actually push it up there.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
It comes in the same year where the next gen consoles from Microsoft and Sony come out and Stadia will sit right there in the middle of them with the advantage of allowing you to play the multi-plats without you requiring to buy a new 500 dollar system. As I see it, it offers plenty of value for people who do not want to buy into a new MS/Sony console at launch, with some added advantages of playing on a tablet within the home.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,309
It comes in the same year where the next gen consoles from Microsoft and Sony come out and Stadia will sit right there in the middle of them with the advantage of allowing you to play the multi-plats without you requiring to buy a new 500 dollar system. As I see it, it offers plenty of value for people who do not want to buy into a new MS/Sony console at launch, with some added advantages of playing on a tablet within the home.
And no downloads or hard drive space to worry about

red dead 2 won't take up 100 something gigs on your pc it will take up 0
 

adobot

Member
Mar 19, 2019
165
It comes in the same year where the next gen consoles from Microsoft and Sony come out and Stadia will sit right there in the middle of them with the advantage of allowing you to play the multi-plats without you requiring to buy a new 500 dollar system. As I see it, it offers plenty of value for people who do not want to buy into a new MS/Sony console at launch, with some added advantages of playing on a tablet within the home.
Exactly. Google has first mover advantage next-gen so from November this year to November next year, if they can entice even a few million people to sign up (and why wouldn't they since it's going to be free), they'll be in a great position to a major player as we enter next gen.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Seattle
Nah, it's literally the code they'd use to put the game on other PC game stores. Check this out if you have 45 mins: https://stadia.dev/blog/gdc-2019-session:a-guide-to-developing-on-stadia/
No it literally isn't. You are wrong, maybe read about Stadia or something. Stadia doesn't support OpenGL or DirextX, instead it supports Vulkan. It's also not Windows; games have to be ported.. that porting is done by the game developer and not Google. In fact that's all described in the video you linked to.

And what you said earlier about Google adjusting for your bandwidth is referring to the VIDEO STREAM not the game rendering; your games can still be streamed to YouTube at 4k so they probably are still going to render the game the same whether your connection supports 4k or 1080p/etc.. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand this stuff.
 

Grath

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
463
Some problems not mentioned befire (apart from not being available in my country):
-No exclusive games. Yes, there is one indie game they bought, but even if it's a Limbo caliber game, it still is basically nothing. Yes I know they are building a AAA studio, but when do you think they can develop an entirely new game? 3 years at best in my opinion.
-The "you can watch a YouTube video and click on play and it starts" is absolutely bullshit when you have to buy that game. That means that every impulse try has to become a 60 USD impulse buy and that won't ever work in my opinion.
-When developers have to prioritize development resources, right now (as in with next year's games) no one would bet on Stadia, which means barebones PC ports.
 

Grath

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
463
And no downloads or hard drive space to worry about

red dead 2 won't take up 100 something gigs on your pc it will take up 0

Maybe I'm wrong but HDD (and SDD) prices are very low these days. I have a 10 TB drive, and my PC is extremely far from being a gaming PC. Who cares about downloading (if you're in Google's target market) and HDD space?
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
Maybe I'm wrong but HDD (and SDD) prices are very low these days. I have a 10 TB drive, and my PC is extremely far from being a gaming PC. Who cares about downloading (if you're in Google's target market) and HDD space?
Sure but what do you think its the bigger barrier for most people, adding a new HDD to their computer, or just login into stadia and run it.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
It's weird because the game only exists in the cloud. You're paying $60 for a game that only works if you have internet and can access the service.

In an era of > 100GB games, I WANT my games to exist in the cloud. I'm not going to store my entire library on my HDD at all times. Which means I'm at the same mercy to Steam or PSN or any other digital distribution system to stay up and honor its licenses.

And I view it as a pretty significant benefit to be able to immediately play any game in my library. When I install Steam on a new PC these days, it takes hours to pull down the games I might want to play.

So yeah, if Stadia goes under in short order and I spent hundreds of dollars on games that are just gone, I'll be fucking pissed. But that's the risk I take with any new distribution service. Is there any reason to trust Epic or Rockstar's new distribution over Google's? I don't really think so.

The upside is that now I'll be able to play AAA games on my 13" laptop, or even my phone if I want to. I think that's a pretty awesome improvement on the status quo.
 

BlueManifest

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,309
Maybe I'm wrong but HDD (and SDD) prices are very low these days. I have a 10 TB drive, and my PC is extremely far from being a gaming PC. Who cares about downloading (if you're in Google's target market) and HDD space?
It's still a benefit, you wouldn't of had to buy a 10 TB hard drive, is it SSD too? Because stadia runs off SSDs
 

Deleted member 16365

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,127
No it literally isn't. You are wrong, maybe read about Stadia or something. Stadia doesn't support OpenGL or DirextX, instead it supports Vulkan. It's also not Windows; games have to be ported.. that porting is done by the game developer and not Google. In fact that's all described in the video you linked to.

And what you said earlier about Google adjusting for your bandwidth is referring to the VIDEO STREAM not the game rendering; your games can still be streamed to YouTube at 4k so they probably are still going to render the game the same whether your connection supports 4k or 1080p/etc.. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand this stuff.

I watched the entire GDC presentation in person, and that's what I took away from it. I'll admit I'm not a dev working on porting a Stadia game, but unless you are and can show me how the process is different, I'm going to go with what the Stadia team told me and a room full of other people in March.
 

JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,211
Texas
Who are these people? Do they even exist? In large enough numbers to make it worth keeping the platform alive?

Feels like a very niche market.

I mean... If latency/bandwidth wasn't an issue Stadia would be objectively better than consoles and equal to but far cheaper than enthusiast-level PCs. There would be no reason to play a multiplat game on console over Stadia.

But latency is a huge issue so...
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Seattle
I watched the entire GDC presentation in person, and that's what I took away from it. I'll admit I'm not a dev working on porting a Stadia game, but unless you are and can show me how the process is different, I'm going to go with what the Stadia team told me and a room full of other people in March.
Then you clearly misunderstood. They've repeatedly talked about dev teams doing ports to Stadia, it would make no sense for Google to do that coding. Are you a dev at all of anything? I can't imagine you are if you think it would make sense for Google to handle Stadia ports.

Here's Ubisoft describing how porting to Stadia is now a part of their dev pipelines:


"The extra cost to put to make sure the games work well on Stadia is not that high," Guillemot said, according to a report by Gamasutra. "It's part now of our pipelines and we have a good relationship with Stadia to make sure it is profitable for us."

Beyond that Google has recently stated that it's up to the developer what Framerate/Graphics setttings they target.. again, any other way wouldn't make any sense. Google is not intimately familiar with each individual games code and graphics options, the game developers are.

What Google will dynamically adjust is the video stream the user sees based on bandwidth.

It's blowing my mind why you think a presentation describing SDKs and APIs for devs to use is describing a scenario where Google would be the one coding against these SDKs and APIs lol

Either way you are 100% factually wrong on it being "the same PC version." It's Linux/Vulkan...
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
While I don't personally believe Stadia will last long, I don't think its hard to make an argument that this is a convenience play. No need to buy a box or upgrade an existing PC. Ability to play in multiple locations without issue (phones, laptops, chromcast, tv, etc), no need to download, update, patch either a system or game, can bring your own controller if you have one, and no online play fees. Seems like SOMEONE will be the target. Pickup and play without all the hassles. Buy once, play most places. You sacrifice the best quality, physical ownership for ease of access and convenience. I dont agree with it, but someone will.

it really depends how *much* that sacrifice is going to be, and we just don't know yet. The proof will come November 19th. Imo, if the quality sacrifice is between the experience of a 2070 and a 2080, most people are already making that sacrifice by gaming on consoles. If the sacrifice is that twitchy games like Rocket League or Street Fighter are unplayable on Stadia, that's a more serious issue for the platform. If the hands on impressions are true, and you basically forget you're playing a streamed game, I see a lot of value in buying my games on Stadia rather than on Playstation5.
 

Badcoo

Member
May 9, 2018
1,605
I do agree with OP on how the messaging around this isn't very clear. But I am a big supporter of the tech.

When Netflix started with their streaming I told myself I'd never watch such low quality shows. I want that full DVD/ Blu-ray video and sound experience. Now I go to streaming services all the time and can barely tell the difference.

I know gaming is different but I'm mostly talking about how gaming culture has us tuned to think that having a game run locally is the only way to play. IMO it's the best way to play but not everyone else.

If Google can make games as simple to access as Netflix has made tv shows/movies. Majority's won't care if the graphics aren't as good.

Also as parent who would rather spend $60 for their kid to play vs $300 +$60 for console and game.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,075
I really want Stadia to fail, since I hate the idea of an all-streaming future.

However what Stadia has that home consoles don't is the ability to constantly evolve the service over time. I think their strategy is this: They're in it for the long haul and this will be an iterative service. They know very well that all the pieces to make this work flawlessly everywhere for everyone aren't there yet, and they're okay with that. They're not expecting to overtake Sony & MS on day one. They're fine with that. They want to build this service slowly piece by piece over time, increasing its value and accessibility and exclusives as time goes. Their launch isn't an all-out attack juggernaut, it's an open beta for the curious. Their goal is to get the enthusiasts who care about being able to stream their games in many places first. And then get these people to incite others to join once the service becomes better. I can see this working out for them.

But I really hope it doesn't because fuck input latency and variable bandwidth and the general wonkiness of networks and Wifi.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
Their problem is that they're scared of game streaming becoming a real replacement of their beloved game boxes

I totally get this for the enthusiast PC player who builds their own system from parts. But Stadia is not threatening those people at all. I don't get it at all for console players. It's not like we have any control over the hardware. We get very little support from MS or Sony if our consoles break. We can't easily mod or run homebrew on our consoles. I don't see the fetish for having an expensive, proprietary box in your home if you don't actually need it to play AAA games.
 

Deleted member 49438

User requested account closure
Banned
Nov 7, 2018
1,473
So who is this for? Who asked for this? Streaming as a concept may have some traction, but this seems to undermine itself every chance it gets. But here's the rub, even an unappealing system can be made to sell by sheer brute force if you have the games to push it. That's how Nintendo managed to push millions of 3DS units in a post-smartphone world, for example, by having loads of great games you couldn't play anywhere else. Put simply, exclusives sell your platform, this isn't new wisdom, it's as old as the gaming industry itself. And yet, in spite of this, Google failed even at this. Yes, they actually have impressive third party support lined up, but why would I play RDR2 on Stadia if I can play it on PC or PS4?

Amazingly enough, Google has a first party studios division, they just... aren't releasing anything. They haven't even announced they're making anything, actually. Compelling, must-have exclusives would have probably helped in getting people on board, even if grudgingly. After all, if an amazing new game can only be played via Stadia, and I want to play the game, I'll sub to Stadia to play it, in spite of all of its other failings. But Google failed even here!

I think this is part of the biggest issue for Stadia to overcome. The demographics they're targeting feels like a fraction of a fraction.

I feel like their main targets should be the crowd that buys CoD & Sports titles as those are 3rd party games that always dominate in sales. The issue is how many of those care about those titles, but don't care about ANY of the platform exclusives on Sony, Microsoft, or Nintendo's current console? If any of the Big 3 have their teeth in you with major IP you love, then you may feel obligated to buy a console, and Stadia no longer becomes necessary for you as you will already have a console to purchase your 3rd party releases. That cuts into a huge chunk of that userbase.

So in that case I guess they have to target new users that don't typically purchase a console. Will they be willing to buy games for $60? That remains to be seen. It's a big gamble on google's part. I feel like if they had a bit more time to develop exclusive games to bring people into the ecosystem, or to show us exactly how good the latency is, then people would have more positive expectations. There was a recent article said in 1-2 years latency on stadia could be better than on local hardware... so why not wait until then? I guess they think the timing is right for the market, but I think they may hurt themselves in the long run.
 

Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,080
Stadia is the solution to a problem that doesn't exist and serves a consumer base that has yet to appear.
I agree that it has a very niche market, but it delivers a solution that some might have.

Speaking personally, soon I will be moving for a year to another country on the other side of the planet. I will not be taking my gaming PC with me but I will want to play some PC games. Stadia/Geforce Now/xCloud might be a good choice to play on my not-so-powerful laptop some games that'll release in 2020 (Cyberpunk for example).
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
Do you think being locked out of your online games while a multi-GB patch downloads is not a problem?
I don't really play online games tbh, except like Smash occasionally, so this never was a problem for me.

The last time I was hit by a patch so long that I saw it as a problem was Spider-Man on PS4, but then I noticed that the game was totally playable on V1.0, so I carried on while the patch was downloading.
 

jman2050

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
5,787
It's hard to run a coherent messaging and marketing campaign for a product whose purpose and intended audience and use case are unclear at best.
 

thebishop

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,758
I don't really play online games tbh, except like Smash occasionally, so this never was a problem for me.

The last time I was hit by a patch so long that I saw it as a problem was Spider-Man on PS4, but then I noticed that the game was totally playable on V1.0, so I carried on while the patch was downloading.

I can tell you it is a persistent problem for me playing Rocket League. And the problem compounds every time I try to play online with my friends who are less dedicated gamers than me. Trying to coordinate 4 people to play Red Dead Redemption online inevitably results in everybody needing either a patch or a firmware update, and we have to reschedule to play another time. Basically if you're not playing a game you already play regularly, getting a party together never works on the first try.
 

noesch

Member
Oct 31, 2017
273
Southern Germany
I really want Stadia to fail, since I hate the idea of an all-streaming future.

However what Stadia has that home consoles don't is the ability to constantly evolve the service over time. I think their strategy is this: They're in it for the long haul and this will be an iterative service. They know very well that all the pieces to make this work flawlessly everywhere for everyone aren't there yet, and they're okay with that. They're not expecting to overtake Sony & MS on day one. They're fine with that. They want to build this service slowly piece by piece over time, increasing its value and accessibility and exclusives as time goes. Their launch isn't an all-out attack juggernaut, it's an open beta for the curious. Their goal is to get the enthusiasts who care about being able to stream their games in many places first. And then get these people to incite others to join once the service becomes better. I can see this working out for them.

But I really hope it doesn't because fuck input latency and variable bandwidth and the general wonkiness of networks and Wifi.

Thank you. There are people in this thread who can differentiate between their personal preferences and criticism. I totally get that a lot of people don't like the idea of an all streaming gaming future. For a lot of reasons.

But claiming there won't be any benefits, that there's no target audience at all, denying all of the factors that might drive people towards stadia (and any other well executed Streaming service)...I really can't comprehend how people can be so ignorant.
 

DerpHause

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,379
lol. most online games do not allow you to play if you're not on the latest version.

Sure, but how often do you find that every game needs an update at once?

Ps5 Xbox2 are only 200$?
Pc is only 200$?

Anything in the early gen that is a multiplat is likely to be on old and new systems where $200 is an option for hardware. Anything later and yes, we start to approach that price. Patience and sales help too.
 

Cranster

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,788
the advantages of stadia are:
  • No need to buy dedicated hardware every few years (you save >200€)
  • "supposedly" you can access your library anywhere (since stadia should run in several types of hardware)
The disadvantages are:
  • Requires good internet
  • no modding
If if is not for you it isn't. IMO assuming there is a good infrastructure it can take the position of another console. FOr people that only play very few games it might be the plaftorm to be as not only is it cheaper but you also aren't tied to your home.


You forgot the biggest disadvantage of all. ZERO GAME OWNERSHIP! You can't play the games offline at all and even though you are paying full price for said games. You cannot play them if the service is down, internet is down, ect.