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Stadia’s E3 Doom Eternal demo made me a cloud gaming believer
- Thread starter Alucardx23
- Start date
Isn't there some reason journalists are so deeply invested in convincing us that this technology works? PlaystationNow is like 5 years old. It shouldn't be all that surprising that the tech works and is getting better. The issue is largely about not wanting your games to be reliant on a constant internet connection.
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Will you leave your answer about the electric service as question, or will you share some info against how the electric service has not always been stable? If the solution is to have both, then show me the console that works without electricity and you will shut down my example. Who said that streaming will be for everyone? Who are you answering to when you say that? Streaming will be a great solution for the people that want to play console/PC games but can't or don't want to buy a console/gaming PC to play them. What the steaming services will do for a lot of people is lower the barrier of access for games and that is good for everyone, specifically for the developers that make them. You can keep doing whatever you want to keep doing.
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Don't take this the wrong way, I respect your work a lot and I guess that's why I want to share my perspective on this with you. I'm trying to debate something here, not trying to win anything. According to your answer it doesn't really matter if you can resell a digital game or not. It all comes down to taking the disc/cartridge in your hand and put it inside something so you can play it. It will be awesome to see the Digital Foundry videos on this to show how these services will improve.
On a side note I recommend you trying EmuVR to see if you see the potential of future versions of something like this scratching the itch for physical games you have.
That's right. I don't resell games. I don't really care. My habits over the last ten years have shown that I never commit to playing games I have digitally and eventually forget about them entirely. I may as well not have them. My Steam library is mostly useless to me now. I regret spending anything on it.
Even then, it's light years beyond streaming. What I felt while playing Doom on PC vs Stadia cannot he understated. Stadia looked like a YouTube video with inconsistent frame-times and skips. It felt like watching a video rather than really playing the game.
Only if doctored somehow. If it's a real setup then it's likely way worse conditions than any one would face in real life due the sheer amount of devices causing interference
Games running locally also have latency.
And potentially if there's a way to reduce over below of what we have now I would bet streaming is the way to do it.
Because server performance should scale much faster than on consumer side so soon streaming is going to have access to so many more resources than any machine you can build locally. And that enables many scenarios to tackle latency. Games can run much faster on the server side, or the server is able to render many possible outcomes and so on. Soon we'll also reach the point where it's not cost effective to upgrade your hardware to keep pace at the hardware server side so on top of that the server hardware would be capable of running much more complex games or at higher settings.
Specially now that the whole industry is in and investing tons and tons in research
The internets travel in fiber strands at around "only" 70% of the max speed of light, cuz fiber glass is not awesome like space, the final frontier.
It takes about 16ms to render one frame at 60Hz, 10ms to render one frame at 100Hz. And so on.
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics ---
11 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 9.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 13.518/24.476/62.965/13.690 ms
my best ping to google (roundtrip) was 13.5 ms. My worst speed was infinity (packet lost). My second worst was 62ms. My average was 24 fps. My median was 18.5 ms. I'm in downtown Manhattan. Most people will have worse latency and similar packet loss (since Stadia's controller is wireless). Fiber will be more stable and slightly lower latency. Maybe around 10ms median. negligible packet loss. But almost nobody has it.
In gaming terms, no matter what google does to cope (Forward error correction, rollbacks, etc) packet loss means if i hit a button during a specific frame, it might either:
1. get delayed by one extra frame, maybe even 3 sometimes and make me lose at street fighter. Unacceptable!
2. cause a rollback and make my game stutter. Annoying but acceptable
When there is an internet outage, i won't be able to play. Annoying but acceptable.
And as far as stadia hardware upgrades at the datacenter, economy of scale and advantages to fixed platforms for developers will not allow anything more than the current vanilla first then pro 3 years later. It's all bullshit
It takes about 16ms to render one frame at 60Hz, 10ms to render one frame at 100Hz. And so on.
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics ---
11 packets transmitted, 10 packets received, 9.1% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 13.518/24.476/62.965/13.690 ms
my best ping to google (roundtrip) was 13.5 ms. My worst speed was infinity (packet lost). My second worst was 62ms. My average was 24 fps. My median was 18.5 ms. I'm in downtown Manhattan. Most people will have worse latency and similar packet loss (since Stadia's controller is wireless). Fiber will be more stable and slightly lower latency. Maybe around 10ms median. negligible packet loss. But almost nobody has it.
In gaming terms, no matter what google does to cope (Forward error correction, rollbacks, etc) packet loss means if i hit a button during a specific frame, it might either:
1. get delayed by one extra frame, maybe even 3 sometimes and make me lose at street fighter. Unacceptable!
2. cause a rollback and make my game stutter. Annoying but acceptable
When there is an internet outage, i won't be able to play. Annoying but acceptable.
And as far as stadia hardware upgrades at the datacenter, economy of scale and advantages to fixed platforms for developers will not allow anything more than the current vanilla first then pro 3 years later. It's all bullshit
I'd argue this gen killed physical game across the board. Even if you have a disc without the patches and stuff it's almost useless.
Funny only physical media I own are my library of Japanes Saturn games and a small cabinet filled with some Blu-ray's (for when cable/internet is out).
Yeah I still try to get most PS4 games on Blu-ray, but the advantages are less than ever. In a lot of ways the digital version gets you more functionality. Being able to lend games to friends is just about the only aspect of "ownership" that matters, and it's never been a big part of PC gaming.
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I don't understand your case about digital games, it sounds like Monster Boy wouldn't have been your game of the year if it would have been digital only, but OK, we can leave it at that.
On regards to your experience with Stadia, did you investigate if this was the common experience with the demo or was it something less common? Your experience sounds like the complete opposite of some of the other reports I read. I know you have the eye for detail, so when you say 360p I believe that is what you saw, but this quote from Ars Tecnica sounds like a completely different experience. "Over thirty minutes of Doom Eternal play, I'd have been hard pressed to point out any differences between the Stadia version and one running on a local PC". In the end of course you have to report on your experience, but something tells me your experience was not the common one during the event.
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For the most part that is true but not always. I live a town in Oregon that has only 20,000 people and have super fast internet with no data caps and it's only like 60$ a month. I'm not sure what my speed is but the google website says I can stream 4K hdr with no problem. I think it's around 100mbs.
I personally just can't see how this is supposed to take off with so many ISPs insistent on shitty data caps. On Giant Bomb there was a google rep with the Id guys and he had a really unconvincing solution for this problem in particular (that the ISPs will adapt and accommodate a shift towards streaming - yeah fucking right)
Sounds interesting, I am in for the idea of streaming but latency is my biggest concern, I can't even game on PS4 unless my controller is wired.
I literally gave up on RDR2 because of the input lag, but that's more of a game problem.
I agree with most of what you say, but not being able to play a game you paid for because of net outage is NOT acceptable.
I've cut back on PC gaming due to this and heat from my system. I also just use the DF account if I want to play something new and not on console.
1) It's hard to say - if I knew it was getting a physical release that was coming later, I would have waited. I only buy digitally if there's no other option and it's a game I really want. That said, I can enjoy digital games and I certainly do so. I don't like it but the games are still great. That's just an ownership issue - totally separate from the Stadia discussion.
2) My experience was consistent with every other station and time I looked at the game. Performance was inconsistent - lots of frame skipping. Yet nobody else could even see what I'm talking about despite pointing out to them as they played. It drove me nuts but clearly doesn't impact everyone as most people didn't seem to care. It was much worse than bad frame pacing but the effect is similar. Also, every station exhibited visual compression - it looks like a YT video. This is fact. Again, not just my experience - all stations.
The internet drop-out, though, was obviously something not everyone experienced but that only happened after about 30 minutes.
What I'm saying is that I noticed very visible issues that most people did not. I talked to people that said it was perfect when I could see what they were playing and know for a fact that it was far from it. If I could have captured and measured it, I could prove it easily. It's a 60fps game - there were basically 50+ ms dips happening constantly during play.
Then I went and played it on PC. The difference was vast. Much larger than usual.
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Awesome, thanks for the info. From personal experience using Geforce Now I can describe it as being good enough while playing on a 1080P/50 inch screen from 1.5 meters away. I can of course notice the difference from a game being played locally, but it is functional. Something that I would not say in my experience using Geforce Now, is that the difference is as big as playing the game from Switch to console. I would say that Geforce Now takes you to 70/80% of the local game image quality. I'm quite sure that The Witcher 3 running at 60fps or more in Geforce Now, with max out setttings would give you a better experience than playing the Switch port.
On regards to how these services will be accepted, I just see too many parallels with MP3 and how it was an obvious downgrade to the people that knew about music quality, but for most people they would describe it as being the same or simply being a lot more convenient to use. We now have digital music formats that are comparable or even better that the analog ones we had before, but it took a while.
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Jesus fucking christ on a bike you are hopeless.
What part of the following don't you get ?, please point the word within this logical chain of facts you don't understand .no wait, don't, i wont' reply anyway.
1 - demo in a google built building for youtube creators =>
2 - sitting on a google space magic quality internet (gigabytes and <1 ping there probably) =>
3 - it will be different then what people will get at their house.
BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING LIGHT YEARS ABOVE OF EVEN THE BEST CONSUMER GRADE INTERNET AVAILABLE FOR 99.99% OF USERS.
THEREFORE : it is not representative of anything in real life for real people.
at that point, if you still don't get it, you are either trolling me hardcore (gg), or something is really wrong with your reading abilities (to say the least).
either way i won't engage any further, you've baited my twice already.
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Right there we have a problem. Google said they were using a 25Mbps connection and even if it was a 1ms ping to the server, we have people here that have reported that same amount of latency to a cloud gaming server, so I fail to see what is the impossible/"doesn't happen in real life" thing happening here. We know for a fact that the image quality was not stable on some reports, even when using a 1080P signal on the demos, so that right there knocks down your unbased claim that Google was using a Gb connection. Anyone here with a 25Mbps+ can go right now to YouTube and play a 4K video to confirm that 25Mbps is enough. What you are basically saying is that people will have a worse experience than what John reported with the image quality dropping to a perceived 360p. Sorry, but that is just not going to happen, once the service is available the image quality will only improve with the 4K stream and the latency will continue to be dependent on how far you are from the server. So again, you have failed to provide any proof or even a reasonable scenario where the experience that Google had available is somehow not representative or impossible to have at someones house once the service is available.
I want to see how many people here are unable to play this video with a 25Mbps+ connection.
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You can't compress a game stream as much as they can a YouTube video.
Stop equating game streaming to video streaming; hell just stop bringing it up in discussions because 99% of the time the comparison is flawed.
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I'm talking about the necessary bandwidth to play a 1080P or 4K stream. Don't misrepresent my example or at least ask before trying to come up with examples that don't relate to what I'm saying. There is nothing impossible about streaming a 1080P stream using 25Mbps and nothing impossible with streaming 4K using 35Mbps. Google was showing Stadia at 1080p and it will look better once 4K is available, so if anything Google was under representing what will be available at their service once it's available. They were NOT showing something that is somehow impossible to have at your house.
I don't trust anybody here's opinion on latency cuz I've seen tons of people here say it's perfectly fine on PSN now. Era people out here claiming the latency isn't noticeable but most of yall cant even notice a difference in latency between vsync on and off. I'm not even competitive or pro at all, but anything more than 30-40ms latency fucking sucks, especially on a mouse.
I directly addressed why your example is bad, what question would I need to ask? lol
Video streams at the same resolution use less bandwidth, so you can't have someone test their connection with a video stream and expect it to prove that it would work with a game stream.
Maybe ask me a question if you are confused here, I'm not. You are spreading misinformation.
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At least try doing the minimum research before you answer. It's not like it's hard to just play the video and see the bandwidth that is being consumed. YouTube even has their bandwidth requirements for 4K on their support site, you will see that the range is higher than what they require on Stadia. When Google says 35Mbps for 4K they even said that includes the overhead for when someone at the same house is accessing the internet, so it's even less than that. So lets try this again.
4K / 2160p 60fps: Video Bitrate Range: 20,000 - 51,000 Kbps
Choose live encoder settings, bitrates, and resolutions - YouTube Help
Choose a quality that will result in a reliable stream based on your internet connection. Read this article to learn how.
support.google.com
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I think the fact that most people Dark talked to couldn't notice what he was talking about actually bodes well for the overall success of stadia.
Honestly, I'm looking forward to combining the free Stadia with that Ubisoft sub.
Honestly, I'm looking forward to combining the free Stadia with that Ubisoft sub.
I bet most people complaining about the latency wouldn't notice it unless it was pointed out.
I hope you don't buy any digital games on any other platforms as well
I hope you don't buy any digital games on any other platforms as well
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At the moment it is obvious that Stadia is the more developed product. XCloud was only available to play using smartphone using a 720p resolution. Stadia was available to play on televisions running at 1080p.
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This isn't a big deal to lots and lots of people. The biggest games today are games that don't even function while offline. Having to be online to play games isn't a huge problem for most people. Millions of people need to be online to control the lights in their homes. We manage.
It'll be a service that will constantly be in a battle of perception about how well it works, as well as one that feels of lesser value when it has to compete for market share in a market that still provides options for more concrete game ownership.
I wish Google luck trying to tackle either of those problems.
I wish Google luck trying to tackle either of those problems.
The 'biggest games' such as Spiderman, GTAV, Red Dead Redemption 2 and Smash Bros for example? I think you'll find they do.
Those are not the biggest games, and one of those games moves millions of units in 2019 near exclusively for GTA: Online and another has a popular online mode and the last one is Nintendo's premier online MP title.
While not everything is Fortnite or Apex or PubG or or or, the big games these days are always-connected GaaS titles. When those titles even allow offline play - which is far from guaranteed - the player loses a lot of functionality/content in doing so.
That's the bitrate for a 4K 60FPS live stream, not a 4K recorded video (which won't be 60 frames per second.)At least try doing the minimum research before you answer. It's not like it's hard to just play the video and see the bandwidth that is being consumed. YouTube even has their bandwidth requirements for 4K on their support site, you will see that the range is higher than what they require on Stadia. When Google says 35Mbps for 4K they even said that includes the overhead for when someone at the same house is accessing the internet, so it's even less than that. So lets try this again.
4K / 2160p 60fps: Video Bitrate Range: 20,000 - 51,000 Kbps
Choose live encoder settings, bitrates, and resolutions - YouTube Help
Choose a quality that will result in a reliable stream based on your internet connection. Read this article to learn how.support.google.com
A 4K video on YouTube like the one you linked to will use about half the bandwidth of a 60FPS stream (hint: the frames per second causes the data usage to go way up.)
So you can't use some random 4K video on YouTube to test whether you'll be able to handle 4K game streaming as 4K game streaming uses significantly more bandwidth, hence the 35 Megabit requirement.
Also "live video streams" aren't actually "Live" and act on a buffer, that buffer helps the encoding compress more since compression relies on knowing the frames ahead of the video. An actual live game stream can not know the frames coming up and can't use them for compression.
Thanks for proving my point.
Yeah, google and xbox pay all of us to hype cloud gaming up xP /s
Sidenote: I wonder what tech MS is utilizing. I assume a type of UCS.
Resistance to this tech really puzzles me, it's like arguing for CD's to stay relevant. This is just the standard inertia of tech right now. Always online, zero consumer ownership, cloud compute & streaming content. It happened to music, tv and movies and it'll happen with games too.
The whole tech sector is backing this. Governments are fast tracking 5G rollouts, big tech is investing in cloud infrastructure & small tech are all currently considering which big tech infra to latch onto.
Xbox had a failed start with this idea last gen and they've jumped right back on the bandwagon. From a corporate perspective, this kind of tech makes too much sense. I'd say we've got 1-2 more standard gens max. I get that people have an inclination towards ownership but that's something that'll eventually be entirely phased out so you may as well start adjusting.
The whole tech sector is backing this. Governments are fast tracking 5G rollouts, big tech is investing in cloud infrastructure & small tech are all currently considering which big tech infra to latch onto.
Xbox had a failed start with this idea last gen and they've jumped right back on the bandwagon. From a corporate perspective, this kind of tech makes too much sense. I'd say we've got 1-2 more standard gens max. I get that people have an inclination towards ownership but that's something that'll eventually be entirely phased out so you may as well start adjusting.
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Will you simply ignore that I also shared a screenshot of the bandwidth that the video was consuming and it was exactly within the range the YouTube support website mentions, and that is also more that the minimum requirements that Stadia needs for 4K/60fps?
It's because it's from Google. If it came from one of the three established publishers there wouldn't be as much resistance. ERA seems to really hate Google for some reason and no matter what they do the majority will shit on it.
See here: https://www.resetera.com/threads/de...s-update-bungie-responds.123560/post-21945147
Your screenshot that doesn't show video bitrate? YouTube at any given moment could be filling your buffer at a much higher bitrate than the video. Still not sure what your point is; your machine at the time was using a lot more than 25 megabits.
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What are you not understanding when I say that the 4K video was consuming even more that the minimum requirement that Google ask for 4K/60fps in Stadia?
Ok
And you realized google is filling your buffer and not streaming you video directly at its bitrate?
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The image I sent shows my exact bandwidth consumption while playing the video and it was higher than the minimum requirement for Stadia. Go ahead and play the same video and share you screenshot to see if you get a lower bandwidth than the one that Stadia requires.
Cloud gaming is coming, cloud gaming works, dissenting opinions from people that played with cloud gaming products at E3 are hard to find, cloud gaming will not replace the stuff you like in the short term. It will expand the audience. Cloud prodicts will represent the majority of users in a good chunk of titles in fairly short order - 2 years or so.
Everyone should relax. Making gaming more accessible - knocking down carriers like having to spend hundreds of dollars on purpose-built hardware - is a good thing. And the traditional 'pay $X, receive a disc or digital entitlement for a title, keep that disc/digital entitlement forever if you care to' model isn't going away, so this isn't a case of one or the other.
Everyone should relax. Making gaming more accessible - knocking down carriers like having to spend hundreds of dollars on purpose-built hardware - is a good thing. And the traditional 'pay $X, receive a disc or digital entitlement for a title, keep that disc/digital entitlement forever if you care to' model isn't going away, so this isn't a case of one or the other.
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