This is a really really stupid change, yeah. I don't expect much from Nomura and Nojima storywise, though, so I'm just interested in seeing the familiar characters and places in high fidelity and the new gameplay.
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Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.
- Thread starter Kakihara
- Start date
It doesn't change the intent that Avalanche had but it sets up more stuff for Shinra.
The law?? Like, the law created in the setting by the completely evil totalitarian government that kills citizens for funsies? That's not morally grey at all, it's been reduced to this trite bad guys vs. good guys scenario.
was the intent there? In the original the intent was the blow up the reactor, the bomb being too large was avalanche's mistake. The additional casualties are 100% on avalanche. In this, was the total size of the explosion intended? Or intended the same as the original.
Avalanche wasn't absolved in the original because jesse made the bomb larger than intended. However here, the bomb being larger than intended was not their fault at all. However there doesn't seem to be any indication of the size of the bomb being more or less than intended like the original, so it completely changes the intent of avalanche from the start. Now they've killed a lot of civilians (in their eyes) intentionally as opposed to accidentally, or, if Jesse's line from the original appears, they've killed no one, the bomb was bigger than intended, and its all shinra's fault.
The dynamic is far different and either absolves them of all fault, or has their original intentions far more questionable. Not a fan of either change.
User warned: thread whining, hostility
Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
I can see where OP is coming from. Removing weight from the protagonist's actions seems like it could make for a less exciting story. Making it more about Shinra manipulating things is an alternate story but I don't know if it's as exciting of a story.
But I agree we should wait for more of the story to see what they do with it.
But I agree we should wait for more of the story to see what they do with it.
You're using moral from the real world... I thought of using laws from the real world as well to judge if people are innocent or not.
Anyway, you're the one having a bad time so... what can one do?
So I went and checked the original script
Jessie
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.
Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.
It's weird cause it clearly did more damage than intended, but she's proud? We'll probably see people dying in the streets in chapter 2 so this is a little unsettling...
Jessie
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.
Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.
It's weird cause it clearly did more damage than intended, but she's proud? We'll probably see people dying in the streets in chapter 2 so this is a little unsettling...
I mean it removes some nuance from the story I guess, but at the same time they never really addressed the moral ambiguity of their actions too much outside of a few throwaway bits of dialogue in the original iirc, so tonally it won't change much really.
At that point I have to wonder why the framing even exists then other than for the audience to sleep soundly at night rather than face the real implications of the ends justifying the means and/or doing bad things to help people. If it's for the audience and not the characters it's there so that we can be happy and POSSIBLY result in the characters finding out later that they were behind it all along, which still makes it not really a morally grey situation so much as a misconception/miscommunication.
What's really kind of conflicting in tone is the Scorpion Boss did more damage with all the spectacle and explosions than Avalanche's bomb, which makes me question the spectacle of the fight versus the story they're trying to tell. But oh well what does it matter.
I mean they were running through destroyed Slums with nothing but their "holy cause" as their motivations and knowing they have to take the fight to Shinra to end the Mako problem. They're basically zealots so yeah I'd say they see it as a means to an end. That's why I liked the original and why their quick and untimely ends worked so well imo.
Yeah well I'm all against the premise of this thread but if we can't discuss stupid shit like this in a videogame forum what's the point of Era as a whole?
This kind of change is going to depend highly on everything afterwards and how Square tackles the introspection of the characters and if they're going to give some kind of reveal of what really happened that day. I personally wouldn't like for them to find out that they were not behind the death of innocence here, because it often leads to cliche'd "it was never your fault" type of dialogue and conflict.
I don't think it makes no difference. Sure, at this point in time, they believe that they caused that explosion and killed those innocents, but the reality is they didn't and that messes with some character development for Barret: When Dyne is held up as a mirror against Barret it will ring more hollow if Barret isn't more guilty than Dyne, and when Reeve calls Barret out later for being a hypocrite.
I will say, though, that it is possible that it was Shinra blowing up the reactors in the original. When you go to blow up Reactor 5, President Shinra comes out of reactor after you leave and says this:
Barret
Don't give a damn 'bout none of that! This place's goin' up with a big BANG soon! Serves y'all right!
President Shinra
And such a waste of good fireworks, just to get rid of vermin like you...
Which makes it sound like Shinra was at least letting the reactor blow and hoping Avalanche got caught in the explosion.
Avalanche aren't just a bunch of nobodies. Barret's group is a splinter cell of a group called Avalanche that blew up several reactors around the world and tried to assassinate Shinra. The main Avalanche was so extreme that when they got cornered they summoned an ultimate summon to try and wipe out all life on the planet to save the planet.
Actually, Shinra gets pretty grey in the later part, too.
I will say, though, that it is possible that it was Shinra blowing up the reactors in the original. When you go to blow up Reactor 5, President Shinra comes out of reactor after you leave and says this:
Barret
Don't give a damn 'bout none of that! This place's goin' up with a big BANG soon! Serves y'all right!
President Shinra
And such a waste of good fireworks, just to get rid of vermin like you...
Which makes it sound like Shinra was at least letting the reactor blow and hoping Avalanche got caught in the explosion.
Sure they would blow billions on 5 dumb dudes. They did in the original, too. I think the scene makes Shinra seem a bit more incompetent, though, since the billions they blew in the original was intended to kill Avalanche, whereas here they nicely wait until Avalanche gets to safety before hitting the self-destruct.
Avalanche aren't just a bunch of nobodies. Barret's group is a splinter cell of a group called Avalanche that blew up several reactors around the world and tried to assassinate Shinra. The main Avalanche was so extreme that when they got cornered they summoned an ultimate summon to try and wipe out all life on the planet to save the planet.
They are also secretly bankrolled by Rufus Shinra.
Actually, Shinra gets pretty grey in the later part, too.
While Rufus makes a speech about wanting to control the people through fear, he never really gets to act on that. Shinra spends most of the game trying to accomplish the same goals as Avalanche, albeit for the sake of their Neo Midgar plan. The most evil thing Rufus does is order Avalanche's public execution to calm the public by killing a scapegoat, but Avalanche really was kinda responsible for Meteor happening. Rufus' other actions are to try to blow up Meteor by firing a rocket filled with huge materia at it, which Avalanche foils for no good reason, and he moves the Sister Ray to Midgar and fires it at North Crater to take down Sephiroth's shield, which Avalanche couldn't get past. He also mobilizes the entire military for an assault on Sephiroth but the battle never happens cuz Rufus gets taken out.
Discussing it is fine. Acting like it's an actual problem that ruins your existence is not.
So is this a way for them to remove the need of the second bomb run from the plot line?
Honestly, I think the second bombing run ways always the weakest part of the original FF7.
Honestly, I think the second bombing run ways always the weakest part of the original FF7.
The more I think about it the less I hate it, honestly. I still don't like the idea of the bomb being a dud, but I do like the idea of Shinra making the damage worse to justify a stronger approach against AVALANCHE, using it as a sort of Reichstag moment.
While I commend your self righteousness, as an avid connoisseur of it myself, you can pretty much say this about almost every post on this side of the forum, barring the one about Western brands using Chinese slave labor.
I think it's okay to discuss the minutiae of games like FFVII.
The reactor explosion stops being a thing as soon as Sephirot becomes the main treat, it's not that the full game is about Avalanche. It'll be more centric this time considering the game is just Midgar but in the full story it's forgotten pretty much as soon as Midgar story ends.
Maybe that's why they did it this way.
OP
OP
As I said in the op post: I know it is just a game. There are definitely more important stuff going on right now. Still resetera is a online forum where people come to take intensely about video games. So why can't I start a discussion and talk about something about a video game which bothers me? Half of the fun here is about being passionate about the "blip and blop" hobby.
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Maybe some people here are just mad that AVALANCHE might not actually be made up of a bunch of murdering sociopaths if ShinRa does all the destructive legwork? 😛
Are you equating a terrorist act were people die to a bounty hunter killing another bounty hunter?
Im actually glad (and surprised) they didnt go the edgy way this time. 3 claps to Nomura.
Its didnt work in the original becuase they were basically pushed in the game as the good guys. Morally grey my ass. The Jessie dialogue posted here is absolutely atrocious BTW, disguting.
Once you start killing inocent people for your "good" cause you can kiss you ass good bye to the morally grey. Thats why Edelgard is a villain in fire emblem as seen by most of the audience (some people can defend her as moprally grey, but nope)
Im actually glad (and surprised) they didnt go the edgy way this time. 3 claps to Nomura.
Its didnt work in the original becuase they were basically pushed in the game as the good guys. Morally grey my ass. The Jessie dialogue posted here is absolutely atrocious BTW, disguting.
Once you start killing inocent people for your "good" cause you can kiss you ass good bye to the morally grey. Thats why Edelgard is a villain in fire emblem as seen by most of the audience (some people can defend her as moprally grey, but nope)
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If you dismantle an evil machine that eats souls to power people's blenders, you're a pretty cool person even if it's a "terrorist" activity. If you kill innocent civilians to wage a war, that's another matter. It deepened the emotional and physical toll of what AVALANCHE had to do to win and called into question if the ends justified the means. This new version doesn't do any of that, and any guilt AVALANCHE is feeling is a lie told by Shinra.
my bad I didnt remember those details that much lol
There's nothing wrong with analyzing media and questioning things.
the "it changes nothing they still INTENDED to blow it up" posts are making my head spin. first of all if that's true, why change it? secondly those are absolutely not the same thing. of course they INTENDED to blow up the reactor, they believe in a cause and have a plan. in the original story however, it's a moment where they realize their actions (and mistakes, iirc isn't the issue that the blast is way bigger than they predicted?) have consequences and have to wrestle with whether or not it's worth continuing for something they believe in. in this new scenario we'll never know how culpable they would have been for any collateral damage.
in the old version, they intentionally blow something up and the consequences were more dire than they expected. in the new version, they intentionally try to blow something up but we have no idea what the consequences for their actions, specifically, would have been. the responsibility is muddled, and that can actually still be an interesting story but in this particular case it's much less direct.
in the old version, they intentionally blow something up and the consequences were more dire than they expected. in the new version, they intentionally try to blow something up but we have no idea what the consequences for their actions, specifically, would have been. the responsibility is muddled, and that can actually still be an interesting story but in this particular case it's much less direct.
The bomb being a dud really sums up how the new imagining is treating Avalanche. Like a joke, imo.
The problem with Shinra using it to attack Avalanche is that the whole discussion of Avalanche and Shinra was framed around the questions that modern day political activists would also ask: Do the ends justify the means?
You'd have conversations about people in the NPC dialogue about how Shinra controls the news and you can't trust what they say but then you'd have people talking shit about Avalanche too because they're doing terrible things in the name of some greater cause.
Now they're basically either making Avalanche woefully incompetent or just hilariously stupid, while making Shinra more devious and "evil bad guy" than they were before. The "assassination on your life" plot with the President is also weird but we'll see how that pans out.
There are no questions raised by FF7R because the audience is already full aware that the good guys are good guys and the bad guys are bad guys. If the bomb went off and there were implications of that it'd be one thing, but since the bomb doesn't do much it rephrases the surrounding scenes and lore. The best way to direct this script and fix this would be to have the REVEAL of Shinra's involvement later. But since the audience knows from the getgo it kills any narrative depth it has.
I mean the hyperbole on this is strong, but part of the strength of the original plot concept was that characters were doing bad things to accomplish a supposedly good end. You also see Shinra try to do things to quell the masses as well later on, handled with at least a modicum of nuance. The whole point is it's not all black and white.
What's makes it even worse is that this 'bomb' in the remake barely does anything. It's pathetic. It'd be one thing if it actually started something significant and Shinra just finished it off but its impact is the equivalent of a firecracker making AVALANCHE look both pathetic and incompetent.
The "intended" posts aren't saying they should have been changed, just that it's not reeally that big of a deal, not "han shot first" status fosho. What's more headspinning is a comment saying this means avalanche isn't morally grey anymore
Urm, so why change it at all then?
I've never really played FF7 but the intent here is blatantly obvious in that they want to make it so that the companies golden goose hands are washed of any responsibility for (at least some of) their intended actions
No. They had no idea how BIG the explosion to Reactor 1 would be in the original. They were incompetent. Jessie is shocked after the fact how much bigger the explosion was than intended.
In Remake they are still incompetent. Her bomb is a dud.
They can still absolutely deal with the ramifications of it, because (as of now) only the audience knows ShinRa increases the damage by blowing the reactor up themselves. As far as AVALANCHE knows they still blew the fuck out of it and killed civies.
That's something that absolutely (and hopefully) can be narratively played upon.
Apparently there could be a development of another story that's framing the group as a terrorist attack from another nation to justify a war.
Which already happens later in the game anyway so again, this doesn't seem to change much other than softening the moral greyness of Avanlanche.
This. The bomb still goes off, it's just a small explosion that disables the reactor core. Shinra is what causes the widespread damage.
It does, it's in the trailers when they escape and when they're with Tifa in the hideout. Pretty much the same scenes from the og game.
i mean it's exactly the same level of deal as han shot first. it drastically changes characterization by muddying the responsibility.
like if your response to the star wars changes is "who cares" that's valid, but if you care about one granular detail's ramifications it's the same deal here
I don't think they'd go to the trouble of showing it was Shinra all along if there wasn't a "don't worry, you're off the hook!" coming down the pipe lol
Barret's Avalanche division is pretty much set up to appear incompetent in the original, yeah. They're running with barely any members, they only managed to get anything done after hiring Cloud, and as plenty of people have quoted, Jessie based her bomb design off internet schematics.
The remake is leaning into that by referencing other Avalanche cells, Jessie even mentions the fact theirs doesn't have the best contacts with "headquarters" (or something like that)
Avalanche in FFVII is basically the whole Rebel Alliance from Star Wars except they don't shy away from the fact a bunch of randos working out of slums aren't exactly well equipped to take down an entire government without causing a lot of problems and civilian casualties. Barret realizing he needs to change tack is kinda his character arc.
The remake is leaning into that by referencing other Avalanche cells, Jessie even mentions the fact theirs doesn't have the best contacts with "headquarters" (or something like that)
Avalanche in FFVII is basically the whole Rebel Alliance from Star Wars except they don't shy away from the fact a bunch of randos working out of slums aren't exactly well equipped to take down an entire government without causing a lot of problems and civilian casualties. Barret realizing he needs to change tack is kinda his character arc.
I don't prefer this change though at the same time I don't think it's a huge offense or anything. I do think it's kind of a cop-out, in any case.
It allows us, the player, to feel good about it.
that's the problem. It sanitizes the experience.
Excellent.
So, as expected, the whole premise of this thread is just knee-jerking without having access to the full picture? Shock. 😉