This is a really really stupid change, yeah. I don't expect much from Nomura and Nojima storywise, though, so I'm just interested in seeing the familiar characters and places in high fidelity and the new gameplay.
Its funny to read people suggest it changes nothing. If it changes nothing then why bother changing it at all?
Yup, this. Pretty open shut.But... Nothing really changes either way. They fully intended for the bomb to blow. They are still convinced they blew up the reactor. Their "morally gray" attribute hasn't gone anywhere.
If anything, the only thing that the scene does is make Shinra look even worse than they were before and also 100% in line with their previously established character.
Edit: spelling
The law?? Like, the law created in the setting by the completely evil totalitarian government that kills citizens for funsies? That's not morally grey at all, it's been reduced to this trite bad guys vs. good guys scenario.By law they're still guilty terrorist, your morally grey is still there just not the shade of grey you want.
was the intent there? In the original the intent was the blow up the reactor, the bomb being too large was avalanche's mistake. The additional casualties are 100% on avalanche. In this, was the total size of the explosion intended? Or intended the same as the original.The intent was totally still there. The real bad change would be if they try to act like there's no fault or guilt to be had by them imo. If they dont do that then than I dont really think it's that big of a deal tbh
The law?? Like, the law created in the setting by the completely evil totalitarian government that kills citizens for funsies? That's not morally grey at all, it's been reduced to this trite bad guys vs. good guys scenario.
At that point I have to wonder why the framing even exists then other than for the audience to sleep soundly at night rather than face the real implications of the ends justifying the means and/or doing bad things to help people. If it's for the audience and not the characters it's there so that we can be happy and POSSIBLY result in the characters finding out later that they were behind it all along, which still makes it not really a morally grey situation so much as a misconception/miscommunication.But... Nothing really changes either way. They fully intended for the bomb to blow. They are still convinced they blew up the reactor. Their "morally gray" attribute hasn't gone anywhere.
If anything, the only thing that the scene does is make Shinra look even worse than they were before and also 100% in line with their previously established character.
Edit: spelling
I mean they were running through destroyed Slums with nothing but their "holy cause" as their motivations and knowing they have to take the fight to Shinra to end the Mako problem. They're basically zealots so yeah I'd say they see it as a means to an end. That's why I liked the original and why their quick and untimely ends worked so well imo.So I went and checked the original script
Jessie
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.
Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.
It's weird cause it clearly did more damage than intended, but she's proud? We'll probably see people dying in the streets in chapter 2 so this is a little unsettling...
Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
Sure they would blow billions on 5 dumb dudes. They did in the original, too. I think the scene makes Shinra seem a bit more incompetent, though, since the billions they blew in the original was intended to kill Avalanche, whereas here they nicely wait until Avalanche gets to safety before hitting the self-destruct.They didn't blow billions of dollars in cash for the sake of 5 dumb dudes. I believe they are aiming for another organization or something, maybe the remnants of the first Avalanche from Before Crisis.
I have the same worry though, if it ends up having no point, then it's just flat-out stupid
It was literally intended to be small-scale. That's the whole point of a large part of Barret's and Avalanche arcs.
I mean that's true for the original FFVII too.
At no point are the protagonists treated as morally ambiguous with any degree of seriousness and the eco-terrorist thing is almost completely dropped after a point while Shinra is always bad.
Ok.Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
Discussing it is fine. Acting like it's an actual problem that ruins your existence is not.Yeah well I'm all against the premise of this thread but if we can't discuss stupid shit like this in a videogame forum what's the point of Era as a whole?
Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
I can see where OP is coming from. Removing weight from the protagonist's actions seems like it could make for a less exciting story. Making it more about Shinra manipulating things is an alternate story but I don't know if it's as exciting of a story.
But I agree we should wait for more of the story to see what they do with it.
It's really not though?
As I said in the op post: I know it is just a game. There are definitely more important stuff going on right now. Still resetera is a online forum where people come to take intensely about video games. So why can't I start a discussion and talk about something about a video game which bothers me? Half of the fun here is about being passionate about the "blip and blop" hobby.Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
^And like Han not shooting first it's completely harmless and doesn't actually affect anything.
So I went and checked the original script
Jessie
Oops...
Hey, look at the news... What a blast.
Think it was all because of my bomb? But all I really did was just make it like the computer told me.
Oh no! I must've made a miscalculation somewhere.
Hey, that was my bomb's debut. Makes me kinda proud.
It's weird cause it clearly did more damage than intended, but she's proud? We'll probably see people dying in the streets in chapter 2 so this is a little unsettling...
If you dismantle an evil machine that eats souls to power people's blenders, you're a pretty cool person even if it's a "terrorist" activity. If you kill innocent civilians to wage a war, that's another matter. It deepened the emotional and physical toll of what AVALANCHE had to do to win and called into question if the ends justified the means. This new version doesn't do any of that, and any guilt AVALANCHE is feeling is a lie told by Shinra.You're using moral from the real world... I thought of using laws from the real world as well to judge if people are innocent or not.
Anyway, you're the one having a bad time so... what can one do?
But the intent was never there. Even in the original they didn't intend the explosion to be that big, it only was cause Jessie fucked up while making the bomb.
At the end of the day this doesn;t really change anythign for the characters in the story, but it massively changes how the player sees it (in a negative way IMO).
was the intent there? In the original the intent was the blow up the reactor, the bomb being too large was avalanche's mistake. The additional casualties are 100% on avalanche. In this, was the total size of the explosion intended? Or intended the same as the original.
Avalanche wasn't absolved in the original because jesse made the bomb larger than intended. However here, the bomb being larger than intended was not their fault at all. However there doesn't seem to be any indication of the size of the bomb being more or less than intended like the original, so it completely changes the intent of avalanche from the start. Now they've killed a lot of civilians (in their eyes) intentionally as opposed to accidentally, or, if Jesse's line from the original appears, they've killed no one, the bomb was bigger than intended, and its all shinra's fault.
The dynamic is far different and either absolves them of all fault, or has their original intentions far more questionable. Not a fan of either change.
There's nothing wrong with analyzing media and questioning things.Some of y'all have way too much time on your hands. Go outside, breathe some fresh air, read the news, get some fucking perspective. This thread is the definition of 1st world problems and its honestly disgusting
.So now they're not just terrorists anymore but also incompetent ones.
The bomb being a dud really sums up how the new imagining is treating Avalanche. Like a joke, imo.The more I think about it the less I hate it, honestly. I still don't like the idea of the bomb being a dud, but I do like the idea of Shinra making the damage worse to justify a stronger approach against AVALANCHE, using it as a sort of Reichstag moment.
I mean the hyperbole on this is strong, but part of the strength of the original plot concept was that characters were doing bad things to accomplish a supposedly good end. You also see Shinra try to do things to quell the masses as well later on, handled with at least a modicum of nuance. The whole point is it's not all black and white.Maybe some people here are just mad that AVALANCHE might not actually be made up of a bunch of murdering sociopaths if ShinRa does all the destructive legwork? 😛
the "it changes nothing they still INTENDED to blow it up" posts are making my head spin. first of all if that's true, why change it? secondly those are absolutely not the same thing. of course they INTENDED to blow up the reactor, they believe in a cause and have a plan. in the original story however, it's a moment where they realize their actions (and mistakes, iirc isn't the issue that the blast is way bigger than they predicted?) have consequences and have to wrestle with whether or not it's worth continuing for something they believe in. in this new scenario we'll never know how culpable they would have been for any collateral damage.
in the old version, they intentionally blow something up and the consequences were more dire than they expected. in the new version, they intentionally try to blow something up but we have no idea what the consequences for their actions, specifically, would have been. the responsibility is muddled, and that can actually still be an interesting story but in this particular case it's much less direct.
Yep, this. Saying it makes Avalanche any more heroic is being media illiterate.
the "it changes nothing they still INTENDED to blow it up" posts are making my head spin. first of all if that's true, why change it? secondly those are absolutely not the same thing. of course they INTENDED to blow up the reactor, they believe in a cause and have a plan. in the original story however, it's a moment where they realize their actions (and mistakes, iirc isn't the issue that the blast is way bigger than they predicted?) have consequences and have to wrestle with whether or not it's worth continuing for something they believe in. in this new scenario we'll never know how culpable they would have been for any collateral damage.
in the old version, they intentionally blow something up and the consequences were more dire than they expected. in the new version, they intentionally try to blow something up but we have no idea what the consequences for their actions, specifically, would have been. the responsibility is muddled, and that can actually still be an interesting story but in this particular case it's much less direct.
Urm, so why change it at all then?
I've never really played FF7 but the intent here is blatantly obvious in that they want to make it so that the companies golden goose hands are washed of any responsibility for (at least some of) their intended actions
Which already happens later in the game anyway so again, this doesn't seem to change much other than softening the moral greyness of Avanlanche.It doesn't change the intent that Avalanche had but it sets up more stuff for Shinra.
This. The bomb still goes off, it's just a small explosion that disables the reactor core. Shinra is what causes the widespread damage.Sounds like Avalanche's explosion was just to disable the reactor.
Shinra's blowing up the entire thing to make Avalanche appear much bigger eco-terrorists than they are.
It's basically the same kind of thing (Shinra making Avalanche seem much worse than they are) from the original game just visually shown.
No. They had no idea how BIG the explosion to Reactor 1 would be in the original. They were incompetent. Jessie is shocked after the fact how much bigger the explosion was than intended.
In Remake they are still incompetent. Her bomb is a dud.
They can still absolutely deal with the ramifications of it, because (as of now) only the audience knows ShinRa increases the damage by blowing the reactor up themselves. As far as AVALANCHE knows they still blew the fuck out of it and killed civies.
That's something that absolutely (and hopefully) can be narratively played upon.
The "intended" posts aren't saying they should have been changed, just that it's not reeally that big of a deal, not "han shot first" status fosho. What's more headspinning is a comment saying this means avalanche isn't morally grey anymore
No. They had no idea how BIG the explosion to Reactor 1 would be in the original. They were incompetent. Jessie is shocked after the fact how much bigger the explosion was than intended.
In Remake they are still incompetent. Her bomb is a dud.
They can still absolutely deal with the ramifications of it, because (as of now) only the audience knows ShinRa increases the damage by blowing the reactor up themselves. As far as AVALANCHE knows they still blew the fuck out of it and killed civies.
That's something that absolutely (and hopefully) can be narratively played upon.
It allows us, the player, to feel good about it.No. They had no idea how BIG the explosion to Reactor 1 would be in the original. They were incompetent. Jessie is shocked after the fact how much bigger the explosion was than intended.
In Remake they are still incompetent. Her bomb is a dud.
They can still absolutely deal with the ramifications of it, because (as of now) only the audience knows ShinRa increases the damage by blowing the reactor up themselves. As far as AVALANCHE knows they still blew the fuck out of it and killed civies.
That's something that absolutely (and hopefully) can be narratively played upon.
It does, it's in the trailers when they escape and when they're with Tifa in the hideout. Pretty much the same scenes from the og game.