As far as the characters are concerned, they DID do it and their bomb went off without a hitch. If anything, it's gonna be interesting to see if they even find out.
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Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.
- Thread starter Kakihara
- Start date
OP
OP
I got no problem with changing bits and pieces here and there, but this is just playing it safe. So the Final Fantasys VII Remake doesn't get any "bad press problems."
Not in the mood for finding sources of the original game, but thats true. Even if it is not a big thing in the game, but barret is fully aware at one point, that they killed a lot of people when exploding the reactores. And changes his ways because of that.
Yep, this. Saying it makes Avalanche any more heroic is being media illiterate.
OP
OP
Just finished the demo, glad it wasnt me mis-remembering the original really did land the casualties at Avalanche's feet.
SHINRA's EVIL Y'ALL.
SHINRA's EVIL Y'ALL.
While the original game doesn't really show this, I feel like it is implied when you talk to Jessie after the first bombing run. She explains that the power of the bomb she made surprised her. She didn't think it would do that much destruction.
I think this shows that Shinra was trying to make this destruction look worse. Where in the Remake they don't imply, they show it happen.
I think the fan translation of the game may even suggest this further but I can't find it at the moment.
I think this shows that Shinra was trying to make this destruction look worse. Where in the Remake they don't imply, they show it happen.
I think the fan translation of the game may even suggest this further but I can't find it at the moment.
Comment seen above:
"I'm pretty sure they're just interpreting a part different from the way the english translation did. Jessie admits in the original that the explosion in the bombing mission was way bigger than she intended, which caused the deaths of civilians. The assumption in the original is that Jessie is an idiot that got innocent people killed because she didn't carry the 1. In remake, they're saying Shinra was the one that caused the bigger explosion"
You don't think planting a bomb is morally grey? I wish people actually put thought behind what they were saying.
Comment seen above:
"I'm pretty sure they're just interpreting a part different from the way the english translation did. Jessie admits in the original that the explosion in the bombing mission was way bigger than she intended, which caused the deaths of civilians. The assumption in the original is that Jessie is an idiot that got innocent people killed because she didn't carry the 1. In remake, they're saying Shinra was the one that caused the bigger explosion"
To all of you "AVALANCHE thinks the explosion was them so it's still morally grey" folks:
Having Shinra create the explosion themselves gives AVALANCHE plausible deniability, even if the characters themselves aren't aware. The story and the player can assume that AVALANCHE's bomb wouldn't have been devastating enough to cause civilian casualties and it was only big bad Shinra's intervention that resulted in collateral damage. Regardless of the outcome, there's no blood on AVALANCHE's hands in this scenario, not even by mistake, which really neuters any further arcs about AVALANCHE's culpability and their "sins", something original VII explores.
Contrast to the original where the blame for the collateral damage rests solely on AVALANCHE's shoulders and haunts the party members to the point where AVALANCHE members wonder with their dying breath if they deserve their fate and you should be able to see why this is an issue.
Having Shinra create the explosion themselves gives AVALANCHE plausible deniability, even if the characters themselves aren't aware. The story and the player can assume that AVALANCHE's bomb wouldn't have been devastating enough to cause civilian casualties and it was only big bad Shinra's intervention that resulted in collateral damage. Regardless of the outcome, there's no blood on AVALANCHE's hands in this scenario, not even by mistake, which really neuters any further arcs about AVALANCHE's culpability and their "sins", something original VII explores.
Contrast to the original where the blame for the collateral damage rests solely on AVALANCHE's shoulders and haunts the party members to the point where AVALANCHE members wonder with their dying breath if they deserve their fate and you should be able to see why this is an issue.
It's more like Han still shot first, then missed, then Greedo shot back but the bullet ricocheted off the wall and bounced back to kill him.
A little more convoluted but weird but not really destructive to the characterization in the same way.
A little more convoluted but weird but not really destructive to the characterization in the same way.
In the original Avalanche is shown as being out of their depth and not very competent. Like how the members that got the security codes for the Mako reactors lost their lives. Jessie messing up when making the bomb played into that. Yet despite the casualties they (and the player) continue on to the next bombing mission with the full knowledge that they could be killing a lot of innocent people again. By having Shinra be repsonsible for the massive explosion, it completely changes the players relationship to what happens.
If they're turning a couple hour chunk of a game into a full length one, they need to add some plot stuff, yeah?
In a way it's pretty cool that Avalanche is getting bigger in the scope of FFVII's lore, but it's also kinda weird considering the name Avalanche was used to denote something extremist for starters. Maybe they should came out with a different name for a big organization and Avalanche would be the name of its "problematic" branch, dunno. In the end, it's cool that the Avalanche thing is getting expanded.
And honestly, the thing that made it suck was how bad the edit/effects looked when they did it. It's fine either way, but that original SE change was like amateur hour.
There are thousands of people that live in each Sector, when a plate comes down it doesn't exactly matter that the reactor was clear of people. Avalanche and Barret have no idea what they're doing, they act out of raw emotion without a clear plan and end up hurting the people they're supposedly helping.
If SE was changing the fact that Avalanche is a terrorist group I know I'd be pissed. It'd completely let them off the hook and they kill a lot of people.
The AVALANCHE stuff goes deeper in the compilation lore anyway. Who knows if it'll be in the remake, but in Before Crisis it's revealed that Rufus Shinra was anonymously/secretly funding AVALANCHE for years in the hopes it'd undermine his father and trigger his ascension to President, which totally fits with the narcissistic rant we get to introduce him in FF7. Again, in the remake, we have Heidigger mentioning an attempt on President Shinra's life. Was this one of the other, more professional AVALANCHE cells... and were they funded by Rufus?
I think a lot of it will still work - Avalanche kicking the hornet's nest in the first place is still the reason Sector 7 gets destroyed, and they're still fundamentally the cause of the Sector 1 explosion. They didn't pull the trigger, but they still provided the gun, and I figure Barret at least will continue to argue it was the right decision to make.
I mostly just remember the Cait Sith speech, though, and that's the one I can see essentially having the same vibe.
People died, they think they're to blame and they still decide to go and blow up another reactor...
I like this change. I don't think it was spelled out too clearly in the original for there to be a definitive explanation. Changes like this feel somewhat justified, especially concidering how they need to have a lot of dramatic stuff in there to make Midgar a full size game.
Final fantasy 7 is my favourite game of all time. I have no issues with this. It sets up Shinra earlier and the theme of avalanche doing bad things for a good reason is still there.
My bet is that Jessie still thinks she messed up and somehow made the bomb too powerful, because the explosion created by Shinra has a much more devastating effect.
It's still going to work narratively.
It's still going to work narratively.
Doesnt stop the fact the group ... or at least cloud kills every grunt in sight (the exception being the dude who's knocked out at the begining) They are still terrible people.
I haven't touched the original in years so when i saw it I actually thought maybe i missed something or forgot about when i played the original.
Avalanches attack on the reactors was always a small cog in the story so i don't see it as a huge issue. Although it does slightly take away from the scene where jesse and biggs are dieing and confess to cloud how they deserve this because of all the people they killed.
Avalanches attack on the reactors was always a small cog in the story so i don't see it as a huge issue. Although it does slightly take away from the scene where jesse and biggs are dieing and confess to cloud how they deserve this because of all the people they killed.
But the characters don't know that Shinra was responsible, right? So the player can fully see what the characters do while they believe that it was their bomb that did the massive damage.
The intent was totally still there. The real bad change would be if they try to act like there's no fault or guilt to be had by them imo. If they dont do that then than I dont really think it's that big of a deal tbh
They didn't provide the gun either, Shinra uses their own weapons to destroy the reactor after the bomb literally fails.
And yet they still have zero blood on their hands, making any remorse or guilt they feel totally unnecessary and false. Contrast to the original, where those deaths were absolutely their fault. It's night and day.
I don't like this change at all, however so far for me basically all the new or changed stuff in remake has been a gigantic flop and fail and this is just another example of it.
I think if this change is upsetting people a lot of people are not going to be happy with this game from the off. From just the trailers there are a lot of story beats that are being moved or outright changed; as is to be expected in a remake. I think this change is fine, AVALANCHE still were prepared for the consequences of blowing the reactor and it puts Shin-Ra early on as the pupeteer. In some ways it leans heavier in to the theme from the original game of coporation vs the people - this is a coporation that will do whatever it takes to further defame opposition and make the populace believe they NEED them and that AVALANCHE need to be eradicated. Yet still paints the lengths AVALANCHE will go to.
As someone that never touched Before Crisis, wtf SE haha
I'll just have to make peace with the compilation stuff in the remake, i guess.
Oh I meant gun metaphorically, as in Avalanche staging the attack in the first place is the only reason the explosion happens.
This made me realize those deaths might be even sadder from the player's perspective. Jessie and Biggs might end up blaming themselves for something that wasn't entirely their fault, presuming the rest of the party doesn't find out till later. Hell, imagine Barret's breakdown once it comes out.
But the intent was never there. Even in the original they didn't intend the explosion to be that big, it only was cause Jessie fucked up while making the bomb.
At the end of the day this doesn;t really change anythign for the characters in the story, but it massively changes how the player sees it (in a negative way IMO).
By law they're still guilty terrorist, your morally grey is still there just not the shade of grey you want.
Posting my reply from other thread.
So my take from this is that unless this is a complete retcon, Jessie only wanted the bomb to knock the reactor offline instead of it being a mini-nuke? This is somewhat alluded to in the original if you talk to Jessie when she's watching the news back at the hideout (she's like I can't believe how much damage it did).
So my take from this is that unless this is a complete retcon, Jessie only wanted the bomb to knock the reactor offline instead of it being a mini-nuke? This is somewhat alluded to in the original if you talk to Jessie when she's watching the news back at the hideout (she's like I can't believe how much damage it did).