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Square-Enix just pulled a "Han shot first" in the Final Fantasy VII Remake / Spoilers.
- Thread starter Kakihara
- Start date
It's not that big of a deal, in my opinion, and it's just the first one. However, it does paint both sides as more "good" and "bad" than the original. I think they simply thought it through, and didn't want the situation in which their game is linked to someone bombing some building because "video games are baad mkay". It is caving in a bit, but looking at it this way, I can understand.
But as people say, they still intended it. And there are still more reactors to blow up so we will see how it goes in the following sequences.
But as people say, they still intended it. And there are still more reactors to blow up so we will see how it goes in the following sequences.
I mean that's true for the original FFVII too.
At no point are the protagonists treated as morally ambiguous with any degree of seriousness and the eco-terrorist thing is almost completely dropped after a point while Shinra is always bad.
The Star Wars equivalent would be the Emperor destroying the Death Star at the same time Luke missed his first shot or something.
True. All it creates is an illusion that they're not cold blooded killers. The bomb didn't go off, sooooo...yeah when they beat sephiroth at the end, they're totally heroes right?!
I don't like the change either. That scene sets a tone for the entire game, and now it's different. Who knows what else is going to change?
Still absolutely loved the demo.
Still absolutely loved the demo.
Almost like that narrative thread was a huge point of story telling ripe for expansion...
What you want versus what the story is/was doesn't really come into play.
I don't see the issue. If anything, the change really exemplifies the opening thematic fight against Shinra, and just how much Avalanche were only ever a fly hitting the windscreen.
I doesn't seem like a great change. It definitely changes the color of the situation. I wonder why they thought they had to change it.
Y'all are nuts if you think not being responsible for the death of dozens if not hundreds of civilians doesn't change a thing about the story.
"Oh they wanted to but it screwed up" yeah that's why so many great stories are about the bad things the main characters could have done if they weren't incompetent boobs.
"Oh they wanted to but it screwed up" yeah that's why so many great stories are about the bad things the main characters could have done if they weren't incompetent boobs.
Yeah I agree. People are playing up the morally ambiguous part a bit more than the game actually focused on it. As a kid I didn't think twice about it. It is a non-issue. There's also plenty of opportunity for morally gray areas, especially when the Sector 7 plate falls. That's actually when you are supposed to feel "oh shit, look at the results of our actions", even though it was done by Shinra.
Well, think about it like this.
Avalanche uses a bomb to blow up Reactor 1.
Unknowingly the bomb doesn't work.
Shin-ra blows up the reactor for their own reasons.
Avalance thinks their bomb blew up Reactor 1.
Avalance decided to use that same bomb on Reactor 5.
So no, this isn't a Han Shot first thing. This would be more like if Lucas gave Greedo Cancer than Han didn't know about and Greedo only had like 5 days left to live but Han still shot first. Some of the background information is different, but the intent is still there. And the intent to repeat the same thing is still there.
Avalanche uses a bomb to blow up Reactor 1.
Unknowingly the bomb doesn't work.
Shin-ra blows up the reactor for their own reasons.
Avalance thinks their bomb blew up Reactor 1.
Avalance decided to use that same bomb on Reactor 5.
So no, this isn't a Han Shot first thing. This would be more like if Lucas gave Greedo Cancer than Han didn't know about and Greedo only had like 5 days left to live but Han still shot first. Some of the background information is different, but the intent is still there. And the intent to repeat the same thing is still there.
I saw some people complaining about this in the leak thread. Didn't think it was a big deal then still don't think it's a big deal now.
If anything it's a nice preemptive measure against all those people who were inevitably going to make "So the heroes in FFVII are horrible people right?" threads.
If anything it's a nice preemptive measure against all those people who were inevitably going to make "So the heroes in FFVII are horrible people right?" threads.
Maybe they were gonna make those threads because the morality on display by the heroes is kinda sorta messed up.
I mean... aren't they still going to try destroying other reactors?
To me this just adds another layer of devious shittiness from President Shinra. He had practically no development in the original other than BAD PRESIDENT. To me this will just increase motivations to take him down. I don't mind the change at all.
To me this just adds another layer of devious shittiness from President Shinra. He had practically no development in the original other than BAD PRESIDENT. To me this will just increase motivations to take him down. I don't mind the change at all.
I think one interesting wrinkle is that in the original game, Jessie is surprised at how effective her bomb is, and shows a significant amount of remorse. The implication, especially in the original Japanese (though some of this is lost in the western version) is that Jessie made the bomb wrong and made it too powerful.
I don't want to say too much, but I did the entire 4-hour hands-on and played the second Mako bombing mission, so I can comment enough to say -- this thread is carried right through and seems like it might be an important plot element across the whole of the remake (not just this game). You can see some of this in the trailers, like where you have ShinRa/Heidigger saying AVALANCHE are allies of "wicked Wutai, our sworn enemy", even though they're not. I could see AVALANCHE as a pawn in a proxy war between Wutai and Shinra as a major plot point of the remake games.
There's also the added thing that - and the official website description of Barret has made this clear - in the remake universe there's more than one 'chapter' of AVALANCHE, and the suggestion is that the other chapters outside Midgar are more legitimate/professional and view Barret's cell in a poor light. In a minor piece of dialogue there's a small reference to the concept that the other AVALANCHE cells aren't talking to Barret's group, but Jessie still has a friend who talks to her.
Cloud agreed to blow up a power plant for money I'm guessing having good morals wasn't high on his priority list a the time.
It's kind of a lame change, but the moral message is still intact. They were still carrying out eco-terrorism and they will struggle with guilt. If they're absolved by the end of the PS5's life cycle it still motivated them to make the same subsequent choices they made in the original game.
But removing him actualizing on that changes the context of the character. It's not nearly as powerful to his character if he just "means" to be a mercenary getting his hands on blood money, he has to act on it.
It's basically a canon version of the "Jenova controlled Sephiroth all along!" fanwank.
We knew about this already when the leaked video came out but it is important to revisit this topic because if they will change this who knows what else they will change. (most likely to make the bad guys even more sinister, imagine Sephiroth becoming Kefka)
I was unsure about this at first too but the more time passes I actually really like it
For all Avalanche know, they accomplished their goals - Considering how quickly they were running away, they kinda wanted a similar effect - not just a minor thing that could easily be repaired. They could make it a bit awkward by having Barret be like "it wasn't supposed to do that!" but I doubt he will. EDIT: Forgot about Jessie admitting the bomb was more powerful in the original, so yeah there's precedent.
Shinra "helped" them because their entire goal is to make Avalanche public enemy no. 1 and connect them to Wutai, in order to justify their war. That is DELIGHTFULLY evil and actually makes the levelling of Sector 7 make a bit more sense later on - they're willing to sacrifice their own subjects in order to guarantee their own power. They also have enough money to replace whatever, because they're capitalism magnified.
It'll also help explain why they don't just send massive attack squads to track down Avalanche - they want them to sow some discord so they can make the threat seem even bigger.
For all Avalanche know, they accomplished their goals - Considering how quickly they were running away, they kinda wanted a similar effect - not just a minor thing that could easily be repaired. They could make it a bit awkward by having Barret be like "it wasn't supposed to do that!" but I doubt he will. EDIT: Forgot about Jessie admitting the bomb was more powerful in the original, so yeah there's precedent.
Shinra "helped" them because their entire goal is to make Avalanche public enemy no. 1 and connect them to Wutai, in order to justify their war. That is DELIGHTFULLY evil and actually makes the levelling of Sector 7 make a bit more sense later on - they're willing to sacrifice their own subjects in order to guarantee their own power. They also have enough money to replace whatever, because they're capitalism magnified.
It'll also help explain why they don't just send massive attack squads to track down Avalanche - they want them to sow some discord so they can make the threat seem even bigger.
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That last bit is actually an interesting plot point they could focus on more with this. Kinda cool if so
Well Cloud and Avalanche aren't heroes.
There's a lot of tonal inconsistencies in FFVII as it is but I think it's important to realize that ecoterrorists aren't heroes. They may be right about the planet being destroyed but killing people isn't a way to prevent it. Barret eventually realizes this and I hope they make that more obvious than in the original.
Oooooh. Now that is actually pretty cool. They seem to have played with a bit of ambiguity from the original to make Shinra seem even worse. Me likey!
Guess you guys should just stick to the original 😏
If they cause the plates to collapse and kill their friends and innocents that still accomplishes the same thing in the end no? We'll see what's "retconned" I guess.
If they cause the plates to collapse and kill their friends and innocents that still accomplishes the same thing in the end no? We'll see what's "retconned" I guess.
I mean honestly, the killing of innocents on AVALANCHE's part was used to later led to conversation claiming that maybe AVALANCHE was just as bad as Shinra near the end of the game which was just like what? so if this means thats gone then its a good change, especially as it is exactly the sort of shit that Shinra would do
Honestly, this is a non-issue and I'll explain why:
Even after Avalanche blew up the reactor in the original game, ShinRa decided to frame Avalanche as the enemy of Midgar.
In the original, Jesse messed up the programming of the bomb. In the Remake, she made the bomb too shitty. Either way Jesse still doesn't look great.
Also, you're omitting the trailer where Tifa says she feels trapped for taking part in missions like these. Also, there's text out there from Square Enix that states that this version of Avalanche is a fringe group that wasn't accepted by the original. That could be interpreted as being extremists. We won't know until the full game is released which is why I'm not going to get upset about this yet.
Honestly, we need the full context of the full game before we get upset about story bits in the demo. If it actually turns out that they baby-fied Avalanche, then sure I would agree with OP and get upset. But for now, I'll lay low.
Even after Avalanche blew up the reactor in the original game, ShinRa decided to frame Avalanche as the enemy of Midgar.
In the original, Jesse messed up the programming of the bomb. In the Remake, she made the bomb too shitty. Either way Jesse still doesn't look great.
Also, you're omitting the trailer where Tifa says she feels trapped for taking part in missions like these. Also, there's text out there from Square Enix that states that this version of Avalanche is a fringe group that wasn't accepted by the original. That could be interpreted as being extremists. We won't know until the full game is released which is why I'm not going to get upset about this yet.
Honestly, we need the full context of the full game before we get upset about story bits in the demo. If it actually turns out that they baby-fied Avalanche, then sure I would agree with OP and get upset. But for now, I'll lay low.
I was worried this would happen. I think it's a poor choice if they decide to defang Avalanche's environmental radicalism. I think it's a better story if they have the player do it and sit with the consequences. I'll wait on the full game to form a final opinion.
A reminder that the dude who dropped an entire sector onto another goes on to become the games comic relief.(Wonder if that's going to change in the Remake any?)
They're still terrorist for trying to blow up the reactor. I don't think it was a dud on purpose, but like in the original they never intended to blow the reactor up in a way that it kills hundrets or thousands of people in the process. I'd say we should wait and see the whole picture where the writers are going with this. Perhaps it just plays more into the part that Shinra actually lets the plate fall by themselves or something later in the game. Or they play more into the part that Jessie never intended the bomb to be this powerful, only for it destroy the reactor in a way that it doesn't work anymore. In the original she fucked up, which caused the death of so many civilians, something Avalanche never intended. Yet, they still went on with the second bombing mission, something they will do in the remake as well. I'm curious to see where they're going with this. I honestly believe this might be an actual important plot point going forward, so judging it this early without knowing the rest of it seems kinda hasty. They're still eco-terrorist for planting the bomb anyway, no matter the degree of the explosion.
I haven't played the demo or seen this cutscene yet, but I actually like the idea behind this post better than how things play out in the original game: AVALANCHE meant to blow up only the reactor, but Shinra uses their bomb/explosion to enact a false flag operation in an attempt to vilify AVALANCHE on a wider scale.
But if Remake simply paints it as 'AVALANCHE meant to blow everything up, but their bomb simply didn't work,' then that seems like a pointless change since the intent behind the attack still exists. To make an analogy, it basically just shifts the outcome from murder to attempted murder.
I saw the dialogue about other cells not talking to Barret's group myself in the hands-on, but there's also Barret's official description on the official website, which reads: "The leader of an independent Avalanche cell in Midgar, Barret was disavowed by the old guard for his extreme methods that attracted too much attention."
Presumably Barret's actions in Midgar in this chapter of the game are going to fuck things up for the other versions of AVALANCHE throughout the world. This also all lines up with the compilation lore, where in Before Crisis there are significantly more organized branches of AVALANCHE (and in that game, we see Barret as a younger man, encountering that organization).
So, yeah. The AVALANCHE plot is changing, but it wasn't really touched on much in the original, to be fair.