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Jogi

Prophet of Regret
Member
Jul 4, 2018
5,451
This is where I always found it weird that they hold huge press events that essentially wine and dine you, strongly encouraging a good review/preview. That and things like special editions and such shouldn't be given to review outlets. They get the game, an NDA and that should be it.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
You can only trust fan rankings of the FF games.

Any reviewer not paying for the games isn't very trustworthy imo. I review computers and hardware on my YouTube channel but always buy the stuff myself. If I can manage that, these big publications and websites should be able to as well.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
15,998
Well, I also think that XIII-2 fixes most of XIII issues and still is a worse game than the original.

The reviews are pretty clear that XIII-2 is the better game overall and many say so explicitly.

I've commented on it before here and posted quotes. Can't dig it up at the moment because I'm at work but might later.
 

Zen

The Wise Ones
Member
Nov 1, 2017
9,658
That's shitty practice and it also doesn't surprise me that they would do this. Probably standard practice for them towards review outlets
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
This shit is really way, waaaay too common, especially for big-name publishers.
Also, the Japan situation is even worse. There's a reason we spent a decade joking about Famitsu scores being "Did the check clear".

These companies really need to be better than this.

in before "embarrassing"
I think you have this wrong.

Companies are gonna companies.

What the adjacent review industry would need is a fucking AP situation where codes are either sent to all accredited outlets, or none of them.
 

RedshirtRig

Member
Nov 14, 2017
958
I am picturing Square Enix as. Looney Toons mobster now.

You're gonna change this paragraph you, or Mugsy here is gonna put the tire iron to your website, see.

Mugsy get iron ready, see. No, Mugsy the iron, not the ironing board, you are too stupid Mugsy, see.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,412
I'm a huge FF fan but I guess it's a good thing Square Enix never saw what I think about XII
 
Nov 1, 2017
370
EJZeu3B.png

When will Square Enix stop?
 

Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,603
Are we really acting surprised that publishers resort to these kind of practices? They also bribe reviewers with merchandise and free games, who knew!
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992

I've been a Giant Bomb fan for over a decade and this was my first exposure to Jeff Gerstmann. It makes me realize two things:

1. Wow that Kane and Lynch stuff was a long ass time ago
2. Jeff looks so weird in the Penny Arcade art style but at the same time I can completely recognize it is him. Maybe it is the clothes?
 

Deleted member 2145

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
29,223
Let's not do this. These are isolated incidents, even if multiple examples exist. Popular games get bad reviews all the time.

it's the only thing to do

also the incidents cannot be isolated if there are multiple examples that speak to a systemic issue in regards to the relationship between publishers and journalists and the power dynamics at play

cory balrog said as much to jason schreier with his "you're tearing us down" mask slip
 

FrostweaveBandage

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Sep 27, 2019
6,660
This is where I always found it weird that they hold huge press events that essentially wine and dine you, strongly encouraging a good review/preview. That and things like special editions and such shouldn't be given to review outlets. They get the game, an NDA and that should be it.
I tend to think review copies shouldn't be given out for free.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I've been a Giant Bomb fan for over a decade and this was my first exposure to Jeff Gerstmann. It makes me realize two things:

1. Wow that Kane and Lynch stuff was a long ass time ago
2. Jeff looks so weird in the Penny Arcade art style but at the same time I can completely recognize it is him. Maybe it is the clothes?

It's sad that I remember him wearing shirts exactly like that. I'm too damn old.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Detroit, MI
I tend to think review copies shouldn't be given out for free.

The problem is that the expectation is for critics analysis to be accessible at some point before release of a product.

If outlets are just buying the games like everyone else, that's not realistic.

Review outlets shouldn't have to purchase these copies, the companies that provide them should just not be fucking babies and either make a good game or deal with the criticism.
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
That second tweet is just Square doing a "paid reviews" thing. Feels a lot different then that Alanah video made it seem but her conclusion was still correct: don't get mad at the reviewers, get mad at the publishers. Until they get held accountable, nothing changes.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
I would like to personally thank these publishers for giving even the slightest bit of legitimacy to the gamergate style incel nerds that complain about paid reviews, fake news, and media conspiracies.

A common tactic these fuckers use is to pretend their hate campaign is for a more noble cause that a larger number of people will agree with. It helps muddy the message and get more people on their side.

None of them actually ever cared about "ethics in game journalism" or whatever, and it shows because any time there are legitimate questions to be asked they are silent. The only time they kicked up a fuss is when there was a woman in an easy position to attack.

There have always been legitimate questions about this shitty industry and it's good that we seem to be finally at a point where we can talk about it again.
 

Deleted member 3812

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,821
WTF?!?!?! According to this Square Enix at E3 had security at their booth who threatened journalists who took pictures of the Square Enix booth:





Square has always been super weird with this shit. At E3, they always have a big booth... but then have security prowling to accost and threaten any journalists who take photos. Of the things they're showing off at a trade show, to let journalists see them and write about them.

Come to think of it, the game that personally got me in trouble -- not even for photos of the game directly, but of fellow writers playing it -- was FFXII. I just avoided the booth after that. SNK was friendly. Eager, even. Why not hang there instead. Or, you know, anywhere.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Detroit, MI
Counterpoint-





Don't let the business side distract you from the end result and it will all work out fine.


There are specific pieces of artistic statements within the medium but as a whole? They aren't art. They're products.

And I say that as someone who loves both Space Giraffe and Obra Dinn and respect them as artistic statements in a medium that doesn't respect them.
 

Jamesac68

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,393
There are specific pieces of artistic statements within the medium but as a whole? They aren't art. They're products.

And I say that as someone who loves both Space Giraffe and Obra Dinn and respect them as artistic statements in a medium that doesn't respect them.

Agreed in general but most of what people make can be dismissed as product. The entire Marvel superhero movie line is product that I love dearly, but that doesn't invalidate movies as an art form. If Tucker Carlson can write a book and books are still considered art, there's not a lot gaming can do to negate its own artistic status.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,192
I highly recommend listening to the USGamer Branching Narratives podcast with Austin Walker where he talks about some shit with RDR2 and CoD, neither even related to reviews, but also with pubs/studios not liking coverage and pulling them aside, in the middle of he and Jeff Green talking about outlets and pubs relationships and reviews/previews in general, how PR sometimes is just the messenger:
www.usgamer.net

Branching Narratives: Austin Walker's Journey From Academia to Games, Editorial Battles, and Being a Good GM

Waypoint Radio and Friends at the Table host Austin Walker shares his journey through the games industry.

around 34:44 to 37:30 for RDR2
"We got pushback from me raising a q-, from me saying [on a podcast] that I asked them for a comment, through official channels [about crunch/labor after Schreier's article]"
"(...) someone from Rockstar called an old friend at Vice, they put pressure on us internally to back off on the labor stuff (...)"

around one minute from 40:07 for CoD

a couple extra minutes and Jeff talks about his review on Ultima 9 and how he got a ban for being negative on it too
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,861
WTF?!?!?! According to this Square Enix at E3 had security at their booth who threatened journalists who took pictures of the Square Enix booth:




They've always had some game booths/kiosks with "No photography" signs on them, and sometimes they would ask you to not take a photo if they saw you. I've had one staff member ask me to not photograph something once and point to the sign, but never threatened.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,782
Detroit, MI
Agreed in general but most of what people make can be dismissed as product. The entire Marvel superhero movie line is product that I love dearly, but that doesn't invalidate movies as an art form. If Tucker Carlson can write a book and books are still considered art, there's not a lot gaming can do to negate its own artistic status.

There's bad or disposable things in every medium but it's in the way the medium as a whole is approached and in general, video games aren't approached or discussed in a way that's dissimilar from toys.

Quoting myself from the jimquisition thread about Troy Baker cuz overlap.


When you only view video games as a product and not a piece of art, you're going to look at a 90+ Metacritic score and think it reflects some objective, undeniable quality about that game.

And because of that, you won't sincerely engage with good faith dissenting opinions.

And because you won't sincerely engage with opinions that don't fall in line with the consensus, you can't have discourse about the game, or games in general.

Things are just either good or bad, and no one is allowed to have opinions.

People want to compare their latest critically acclaimed game to respected works of art in cinema, music, or literature, but those mediums have (mostly) healthy discourse that elevates them to a level of cultural relevance video games may never achieve because as a medium, it's completely hamstrung by the culture that surrounds it.

Personally, I think Death Stranding is probably the closest or at least the best example of a recent AAA (idk if I would consider other examples like TLG as AAA) game being a work of art, but unfortunately it doesn't represent the medium as a whole.
 

Deleted member 12352

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,203
Weird thing to be doing over a gd remaster release but w/e... Squenix is a company I gave up trying to figure out a long time ago.

Also, slight sidebar but it's kind of funny that it's the Vice TLOU2 review prompting this seeing as that review actually does lie about that game.
 

Jencks

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,451
WTF?!?!?! According to this Square Enix at E3 had security at their booth who threatened journalists who took pictures of the Square Enix booth:





I remember this happening with FF7R. I think it was Tim Rogers who tried to go into the booth and film off-screen gameplay and was denied (he included a clip of him getting turned away as a joke in one of his videos). Square Enix loves to have a lot of control over what is and isn't shown of their games pre-release.
 

Arion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,807
I wonder how many reviewers buckle under these types of pressure and coercion. It's hard to tell which reviewers continue to be honest and which ones "correct" their reviews to stay in the good graces of the publisher.
 

Deleted member 58846

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 28, 2019
5,086
A common tactic these fuckers use is to pretend their hate campaign is for a more noble cause that a larger number of people will agree with. It helps muddy the message and get more people on their side.

None of them actually ever cared about "ethics in game journalism" or whatever, and it shows because any time there are legitimate questions to be asked they are silent. The only time they kicked up a fuss is when there was a woman in an easy position to attack.

There have always been legitimate questions about this shitty industry and it's good that we seem to be finally at a point where we can talk about it again.
Oh absolutely, I fully understand that they don't actually care for ethics in game journalism, it's just a front for their bigotry. It's just that they can point to instances like these to claim validation for EVERYTHING they say anyway (which of course is logically unsound, but it's not like logic is their strong suit anyway).
 

DorkLord54

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,466
Michigan
I would like to personally thank these publishers for giving even the slightest bit of legitimacy to the gamergate style incel nerds that complain about paid reviews, fake news, and media conspiracies.
That was never the problem, as - for a lot of people - it was already well-known. The problem was of course it just being a (super thinly-veiled) excuse for people to go after women working in gaming industry, not to mention that these peoples' problems with "game journos" was, ironically, that they were beginning to move away from what was essentially PR pieces for various games and start talking about the social issues related to gaming.
 

sfortunato

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,740
Italy
This has been known for years.

In Japan, Famitsu reviewers refused to give to Dirge of Cerberus the minimum score Square had agreed with the publisher (7/7/7/7) as it was one hell of a bug mess in its original Japanese release, and the review eventually came 3 weeks after its launch.
 
Jun 22, 2018
86
No surprise, no outrage.

As someone who works in the PR industry, this is just how PR works in 2020.

Across all industries, not just gaming.

Movies, music, politics, attractions.

Super myopic to believe that wining and dining, suggested revisions, gifts for positive coverage, etc. are an industry-specific problem, or even particularly scandalous.

It's just how the world operates when trying to influence opinion, and something you need to develop a thick skin for if you're going to take any job in the media.

You think the talking heads on the news don't get called every name in the book - including liar - on a daily basis by those they critique?

Unpopular opinion, but there's no victim here (unless her employer forced her to cave under career duress), there's no single bad guy (don't hate the singular player, hate the institutional game), and it's up to the reporter to be professional, tell Square to fuck off, and move on to the next review.

Not even defending the modern PR industry - it's pretty terrifying how much influence enough money can buy - just saying that with everything going on in the world these days with social injustice and disease, I have a tough time mustering much outrage for Square's PR department PR'ing to try to get a better score for an electronic toy.
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
i am legit surprised this is blowing up now between this and ND when this has been an open secret for decades now? I have heard dozens of stories like these from many ex-game journalists here in germany
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,637
i am legit surprised this is blowing up now between this and ND when this has been an open secret for decades now? I have heard dozens of stories like these from many ex-game journalists here in germany

There's almost no news to discuss in the middle of the summer, no games coming out, etc. It's kind of a perfect storm of people being bored during the quarantine and a contingent of people looking for any reason possible to spread anti-Naughty Dog FUD.
 

clockstrikes

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,560
WTF?!?!?! According to this Square Enix at E3 had security at their booth who threatened journalists who took pictures of the Square Enix booth:





IDK about security, but that aligns with my experiences with the booth attendants SE contracts for events in recent years, specifically the ones that had to watch the lines. Extremely toxic, condescending, threatening press, etc.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
This is the kind of statement where we should really see what the corrected information was, aka were their factual errors?
 

TsuWave

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,987
it's the only thing to do

also the incidents cannot be isolated if there are multiple examples that speak to a systemic issue in regards to the relationship between publishers and journalists and the power dynamics at play

cory balrog said as much to jason schreier with his "you're tearing us down" mask slip

Eh, as I said games get negative reviews all the time, plus I trust journalists to have professional pride and integrity so I'm now about to get on here and act like reviews are just marketing
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Fuck these companies. Video games will never be art.

I mean for what it's worth, the shady stuff the Oscars encourage ("For your consideration", catering to white boomers, all the stuff re: Netflix films) are pretty bad too. Practically every art form, and their critiques, have been corrupted by capitalism.
 

ShyMel

Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
3,483
This is really pathetic for Square Enix to do and any other company that engages in such behavior.