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Spider-Man: No Way Home [SPOILERS] - Leaks Discussion Thread
- Thread starter VorpalNonsense
- Start date
- Spoiler Entertainment Comics
The way I took it was that it to show that Peter intentionally dropped out of HS to avoid MJ and Ned. When he decided not to try and rekindle with either of them it was Xmas time. Meaning he had a whole semester left where he'd see them everyday and the poor guy can only handle so much. Plus I don't think he wanted to risk them somehow wanting to get to know him on their own as well.
Please make Peter and Eddie roomies. They're both nobodies now. They can be nobodies together!
Nah, the Homecoming/Civil War suit had the back spider perfectly.
Yet another reason why it's one of the best.
It was close for sure, and don't get me wrong - AMAZING suit. But I'm saying that the current suit is even closer to perfect, but it (and the TASM 2 suit) get thaaaatttt close to getting everything perfect. Then lacks the spider(s).
Yeah. Maybe one day we'll get it at 100%, but man it was so good anyways.
Alright, back home so time to post my full impressions. I said it in the other thread, but this is easily the best MCU Spidey film. FINALLY, Spider-Man gets to be Spider-Man and not some weird mini-Iron Man. Overall I was left satisfied and feel this version of Spider-Man is finally in the right place. Now to dive in.'
I'll start with my personal gripes which are small and honestly most are just personal wishes not happening. Now, I am the guy that hates nostalgia pandering and feels a film such stand on its own and do what's right for the character in the film not pandering to the audience. That said, I am human so I will say that going into this film my big fear would be that Tobey and Andrew would be short-changed and in the film for the last bit. And frankly that turned out mostly to be true. While the last act is quite long, we don't get nearly enough of them as I wanted. And I really wanted Tobey to be guiding this Peter for a lot of the film. What we do get is excellent, but again I wanted more. Still, as we'll get into below, it's mostly the right call for this film as it kinda does the inverse of Spiderverse.
My other gripe is that MCU cinematography remains pretty bland. I thought a good amount of the action scenes and spectacle moments were well shot except for a few times where I was honestly lost in what was going on. But, the actual dramatic moments tends to often fall short in this department. But again, this is true for nearly ever Marvel film and Jon Watts isn't known for his striking visuals.
With those gripes out of the way, let's talk about everything that does work and how this film fixes MCU Spidey. Now this film has A LOT of stuff going on and given how much shit is in this film, it should not work. It should be a goddamn bloated mess, but it isn't. In fact, it somehow manages to have an emotional and character depth that is sorely lacking in most MCU film. As I alluded to earlier, this film basically does the inverse of Spiderverse. In that film, it was about Miles, Peter, and Gwen and their personal problems. The other spider people are all secondary comedic support to this main trio who all learn from each other and grown from their experience together. Miles learns what it means to be Spider-Man. Gwen learns to open up again. Peter learns to let go of his fear and move on to the next chapter of his life.
However, the villains in that film are mostly background noise to this dynamic. They have virtually no connection to Miles or really any of the spider people as they come from different dimensions. The only villains with depth are Kingpin and Prowler, everyone else aren't really important character wise. With NWM, they flip the script and make the two Spider-Men tertiary to the villains. It's the villains in this film that Peter gets attached to, it's them who provide him with a chance to grow and externally represent his conflict of trying to save everyone without risking anything himself, without suffering any consequences. This is a film that somehow takes Tobey's Goblin and makes him just as central to MCU Peter, if not moreso. While it is disappointing to me who just personally wanted Tobey and Andrew in most of the film, it is the right choice for this film about MCU Peter.
And with that we can talk about how this film just fixes everything I found wrong with the past MCU iterations of the character. It's as if the writers personally went through my complaints and just started checking them off one by one. Oh, MCU Peter never has any stakes and never has to face any consequences for his actions, never has to suffer for his choices? FIXED. MCU Peter has flimsy connections with his villains and doesn't seem to care about them at all? SOLVED. Ned and MJ pretty much have nothing to do and we're often spinning our wheels to come up with some bullshit for them to do? Breh, how about we make them part of the whole damn mission? MCU Spidey just doesn't have any emotional weight, no character depth? Buddy, you might get a bit teary eyed in this film. Aunt May is just eye-candy and serves no actual character purpose? Hey yo, here's a tissue box.
It's astonishing. Peter finally feels like Spider-Man and not Stark's errand boy. He creates problems solely on his own, not Stark. And he has to learn how to deal with them on his own, with the help of some friends; he has to learn to grow and learn how to lose and keep going. The ending was bittersweet, but that's exactly what the film needed and I'm excited where they take this Peter from here.
I'll start with my personal gripes which are small and honestly most are just personal wishes not happening. Now, I am the guy that hates nostalgia pandering and feels a film such stand on its own and do what's right for the character in the film not pandering to the audience. That said, I am human so I will say that going into this film my big fear would be that Tobey and Andrew would be short-changed and in the film for the last bit. And frankly that turned out mostly to be true. While the last act is quite long, we don't get nearly enough of them as I wanted. And I really wanted Tobey to be guiding this Peter for a lot of the film. What we do get is excellent, but again I wanted more. Still, as we'll get into below, it's mostly the right call for this film as it kinda does the inverse of Spiderverse.
My other gripe is that MCU cinematography remains pretty bland. I thought a good amount of the action scenes and spectacle moments were well shot except for a few times where I was honestly lost in what was going on. But, the actual dramatic moments tends to often fall short in this department. But again, this is true for nearly ever Marvel film and Jon Watts isn't known for his striking visuals.
With those gripes out of the way, let's talk about everything that does work and how this film fixes MCU Spidey. Now this film has A LOT of stuff going on and given how much shit is in this film, it should not work. It should be a goddamn bloated mess, but it isn't. In fact, it somehow manages to have an emotional and character depth that is sorely lacking in most MCU film. As I alluded to earlier, this film basically does the inverse of Spiderverse. In that film, it was about Miles, Peter, and Gwen and their personal problems. The other spider people are all secondary comedic support to this main trio who all learn from each other and grown from their experience together. Miles learns what it means to be Spider-Man. Gwen learns to open up again. Peter learns to let go of his fear and move on to the next chapter of his life.
However, the villains in that film are mostly background noise to this dynamic. They have virtually no connection to Miles or really any of the spider people as they come from different dimensions. The only villains with depth are Kingpin and Prowler, everyone else aren't really important character wise. With NWM, they flip the script and make the two Spider-Men tertiary to the villains. It's the villains in this film that Peter gets attached to, it's them who provide him with a chance to grow and externally represent his conflict of trying to save everyone without risking anything himself, without suffering any consequences. This is a film that somehow takes Tobey's Goblin and makes him just as central to MCU Peter, if not moreso. While it is disappointing to me who just personally wanted Tobey and Andrew in most of the film, it is the right choice for this film about MCU Peter.
And with that we can talk about how this film just fixes everything I found wrong with the past MCU iterations of the character. It's as if the writers personally went through my complaints and just started checking them off one by one. Oh, MCU Peter never has any stakes and never has to face any consequences for his actions, never has to suffer for his choices? FIXED. MCU Peter has flimsy connections with his villains and doesn't seem to care about them at all? SOLVED. Ned and MJ pretty much have nothing to do and we're often spinning our wheels to come up with some bullshit for them to do? Breh, how about we make them part of the whole damn mission? MCU Spidey just doesn't have any emotional weight, no character depth? Buddy, you might get a bit teary eyed in this film. Aunt May is just eye-candy and serves no actual character purpose? Hey yo, here's a tissue box.
It's astonishing. Peter finally feels like Spider-Man and not Stark's errand boy. He creates problems solely on his own, not Stark. And he has to learn how to deal with them on his own, with the help of some friends; he has to learn to grow and learn how to lose and keep going. The ending was bittersweet, but that's exactly what the film needed and I'm excited where they take this Peter from here.
I really enjoyed the movie. It was great. It was a lot sadder than I would have ever expected it to be.
there were quite a few awkward three way hugs, but I guess that's just me.
I would have liked to have some sort of comedic montage of the villains having a happy ending or something, because as it is it just feels kind of like "welp we're done here" and then they poof disappear and nothing else from them. I definitely didn't expect the villains to even be such a huge part of the emotional factor here either.
Osborn was great. Would have liked an "out am i???" But the "I'm something of a scientist myself" made it in so can't complain that much.
would have liked a "pizza time" from tobey's Peter Parker, but "my back" will have to suffice.
theres a lot of plot holes with the "forget Peter Parker" thing and cynically I know they did it because it's not for certain he will still be in MCU after this just yet.
It mostly just leaves me with a sad feeling in the end. Which is unique for a marvel movie.
there were quite a few awkward three way hugs, but I guess that's just me.
I would have liked to have some sort of comedic montage of the villains having a happy ending or something, because as it is it just feels kind of like "welp we're done here" and then they poof disappear and nothing else from them. I definitely didn't expect the villains to even be such a huge part of the emotional factor here either.
Osborn was great. Would have liked an "out am i???" But the "I'm something of a scientist myself" made it in so can't complain that much.
would have liked a "pizza time" from tobey's Peter Parker, but "my back" will have to suffice.
theres a lot of plot holes with the "forget Peter Parker" thing and cynically I know they did it because it's not for certain he will still be in MCU after this just yet.
It mostly just leaves me with a sad feeling in the end. Which is unique for a marvel movie.
I know it doesn't matter at all, but them changing the fates of those villains should have some big effects on their own universes. Like, Norman being alive should mean that Harry doesn't go insane and try and kill Tobey Peter, right? And Conners not dying means that Dennis Leary Cop doesn't die so Gwen possibly doesn't end up dead.
Nah.
It has a depth sorely lacking in many MCU films.
Nah.
It has a depth sorely lacking in many MCU films.
I've read somewhere that Happy is the one who hire Matt to defend Peter. Also, Matt didn't say he's not willing to defend Happy. He just said Happy need a really good lawyer, and later said that he is a really good lawyer.
I think the implication is Matt telling Happy to hire him.
There should've been a "How'd that get in there" when Toby was stabbed.
Also, he probably should've died, that was a really weird and non-consequence moment in there.
yeah it did seem like they were priming him for it but maybe they wanted to leave it open in case they make another movie with him? Who knows.
I was so worried entering into the theater last night, and I am truly blown away that they succeeded as well as they did. What a loving movie that pays tribute to so much of the MCU and Spider Man's film heritage. Just another reminder for why I adore the Peter Parker / Spider Man character so much - the pain and sacrifice he selflessly carries for his friends and city is just heartbreaking
Going to see it again some time soon - but yeah, wow. This is up there with Endgame and Infinity War for me.
Going to see it again some time soon - but yeah, wow. This is up there with Endgame and Infinity War for me.
My head canon is they were just put back and shit just happened as normal anyway. Norman came back just in time to say "Oh." and Otto only turned good in SM2 because of Holland, change my mind.
The themes it brings with it will stand the test of time better than the other two MCU Spidey movies.
New beginnings, sacrifice, compromise, responsibility, and redemption.
I think you're underestimating how long people will carry this movie with them. One of the few times where fan service didn't completely derail the experience.
I assume some of them will just branch off into alternate universes now. The Norman we saw in SM1 still dies a villain. But now, thanks to the three Spider-Men, in another life he gets a second chance to live differently.
Though iirc Conners never dies in ASM1 either, at the very end he's in jail where he gets visited by the mystery man who's setting up the never-made Sinister Six movie.
A sane Norman and Otto along with Pete are going to win the Nobel prize every year for the rest of their lives.
Oh yeah and they're absolutely going to find a way to travel across the Multiverse.
Max could absolutely be his own Spider-Man if he gets bit.
I hope so, if only because I want some great team up scene in like 10 years when all the Spider Man and some of the iconic (former) villains join forces to face some big bad. Unreasonable levels of fan service but it'd be great :)
Spiderman (Tobey) was so good, felt like he was the best version (so level headed, calm, and wise)
ASM (Andrew) the part with him saving MJ and tearing up, goddamn, I felt that redemption. Also felt that part where he spoke about he stopped pulling his punches, meaning he just started fucking villians up without a care. (nice shout out to superior spiderman comic I think)
Spiderman (Tom) finally felt like he learned something, instead of being a complete idiot like the first 2, I hope the next movies build on that.
ASM (Andrew) the part with him saving MJ and tearing up, goddamn, I felt that redemption. Also felt that part where he spoke about he stopped pulling his punches, meaning he just started fucking villians up without a care. (nice shout out to superior spiderman comic I think)
Spiderman (Tom) finally felt like he learned something, instead of being a complete idiot like the first 2, I hope the next movies build on that.
It's very funny and somewhat haunting that when they are talking about fate Connors, clearly fucking terrified, asks Max if he dies, only for him not to get an answer. He has to just kinda sit on it, wondering if he is a ghost person while everyone else gets some closure.
Really? What depth does this movie have over most other MCU films? Spider-Man was better characterized in this movie, but Peter getting a character arc isn't exactly a novel revelation.
Aside from the return of old beloved characters, this whole movie is a standard run of the mill MCU flick. The multiverse concept isn't handled half as good as Spider-Verse did it. For a movie with such a cool concept it's directed in the most pedestrian way possible.
Black Panther is still the high point of the MCU in terms of thematic depth, and Endgame handled fanservice better than this movie does.
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This movie sold me on Tobey being able to do an old Spider-Man in the vein of Peter B Parker. Not entirely miserable but a solid mentor. He looked a bit thinner in the suit but I though him and Andrew looked fine. Seeing all these live action Spider-Men makes me want live action Miles but at least the Spider-Verse stuff is godly.
I'm still absolutely floored at my friends saying Dafoe beat the Iron Boy Jr out of Tom. Never agreed with the sentiment but it cracked me the hell up.
I'm still absolutely floored at my friends saying Dafoe beat the Iron Boy Jr out of Tom. Never agreed with the sentiment but it cracked me the hell up.
I'll post this for the people who just found this post and are just responding to say "Nah, I just saw it."
I'm not saying it isn't deep, or even that I didn't enjoy it. I'm saying that the film's opening minutes are super thrilling, reminding you that you're watching a Spiderman movie. Then it goes right into the super light-hearted, "Gosh this grown up stuff is super messed up." tone that the "Home' series does. People can't get into one of the best colleges and their lives are ruined? Umm...okay? Then the botched spell, and I'm not *trying* to be nitpicky feels like a problem that shouldn't be. There are so many reasons for this not to have happened. But it did, okay, I'm down. It's in the trailers. Let's bring on the fun. But then it feels like you're being firehosed with 8,000 jokes and references so wow, yeah, there's everything and I'm thoroughly entertained but the characters throughout this whole thing seem like they're struggling to explain and justify and rationalize why they should be working to understand any of it. I especially almost laughed audibly when Norman Osborne is this guy who needs to be saved because Peter Parker is the first person in the history of mankind to change the fate of someone from another universe. Then the film starts going rather slowly as everyone is on-board with the whole savior plot until the big twist and Aunt May dies. From there, you instantly know you're about to get the other Spideys. Even if you don't know, you know. From there it's just all the stuff you wanted to have the three of them say and do with each other. But what irks me is the film ties together clever references to its historical plot rather more than the film's story. I don't know if it's possible to do a massive story like this better, but I guess if I had to hazard a try at it, I'd say...two movies?
I won't disagree on Watts, I called it out in my impressions. But disagree with everything else, especially Endgame. That film is just MCU Greatest Hists, it has no real character depth largely because IW decided to eschew that in favor of giving the audience non-stop action.
The majority of MCU films can't give a rat's ass about character, emotion, or stakes (which is what largely drives character and emotion). Instead, they are about the spectacle, setting up the next MCU film, and fun. Any time something gets too serious in these films, they immediately drop a joke to let everyone know it's alright. There is no need to be sad, its just a fun-time film. There are a few exceptions such as Black Panther and James Gunn's Guardians, but mostly MCU films are cookie-cutter hero films where you don't have to get to emotionally involved in the film as everything will be fine.
Despite all the craziness happening in NWM, the film is centrally tied to Peter and his problems, his character arc. When he loses Aunt May it's because of his actions and the film doesn't try and undercut this moment with some stupid joke. It actually wallows in it and Peter has to learn to grow from it, but he never forgets it. Honestly, the humor on a whole in this film is done very well and not reliant on the typical Marvel [insert pop culture reference here] for a cheap laugh, it's mostly all done organically and at the right moments.
So they totally buffed Goblin for this, because goddamn he could probably go one on one with Thanos.
Gotta say though. I'm not sure how much I like this version of JJ. No way Peter works for this guy right? He's literally Alex Jones lol.
It sucks cause your realize that a modern day JJ would have a shitty YouTube channel or podcast.
I'm hoping he gets a low paying internship at Empire State or something.
Lol.
It sucks cause your realize that a modern day JJ would have a shitty YouTube channel or podcast.
I'm hoping he gets a low paying internship at Empire State or something.
Lol.
Just cause you're a world class chemist and engineer doesn't mean you're not shit at English class.
I meant that's why the writers of the animated series even thought of it. But fair point.
I feel like Watts' direction here is kind of underrated. Yeah, this movie doesn't have the same level of visual identity as the Raimi or even Webb films. But it also has a fucking insane cast of characters and story beats and tonal shifts that, on paper, should all be pulling in different directions and completely pull the thing apart. And it doesn't. Watts is spinning a lot of plates and doesn't drop any of them. Compared to SM3 and ASM2, which have a lot less going on than this movie, but feel way more bloated and dissemble because their directors just can't pull it all together.
Granted, there's more to this than just Watts, but I think it is a testament to his direction that he succeeds here where his two predecessors fell way short.
Granted, there's more to this than just Watts, but I think it is a testament to his direction that he succeeds here where his two predecessors fell way short.
First, I'm pretty sure they didn't not just get into MIT, they didn't get in anywhere because they associate with Peter. Further, speaking as someone that went through that phase getting rejected SUCKS.
Second, I'm not sure why you're discounting Peter's whole thought process to save these villains. It's like the core of the film. I though everything tied together quite well and never forgot the point of the entire story as opposed to getting lost in nostalgia.
I read it as them creating new branching timelines where the villains didn't die. So Norman returns to a new timeline where he didn't die. Otto returns to yet another new timeline where he didn't die. Etc.
Meanwhile the Peters return to their original timelines where the villains did die.
The film also implies that Garfield's Peter won't just use Spider-Man as a coping mechanism and that he will meet his world's MJ.
I love how they stripped everything away from Peter by the end and sent him back to basics, but as someone said, cynically I know they only did it so they can give Peter a clean exit from the MCU in the event they can't reach an agreement which sucks. I really don't want Sony to get greedy and use this to try and do their own thing with Spidey and shit all over everything good the MCU movies did.
Thanks goodness Tom Hardy got blipped away at the end idk if I'd have been able to stand coked out Eddie Brock interacting with MCU Peter lmao
I know the movie was already packed but couldn't help but wish Daredevil showed up in costume at the end 😭
Thanks goodness Tom Hardy got blipped away at the end idk if I'd have been able to stand coked out Eddie Brock interacting with MCU Peter lmao
I know the movie was already packed but couldn't help but wish Daredevil showed up in costume at the end 😭
It helps that as far as we know, Watts was on the same page as Marvel and Sony about what they were trying to pull off and they fully supported him, based on what we know about TASM2 and SM3 both Raimi and Webb were being jerked around and coerced into story material and plot beats by the Sony executive team they didn't believe in for their visions of their films.
Betty Brant said the words because as established in the first movie their school mascot is the Tigers.
Which was actually referenced in this movie when MJ calls Ned a fellow "Engineer" which is MITs sports team name.
Man, yeah, I thought so! Sorry!
man, that ending is such a gut punch, and so Spider-Man
unrelated aside:
i don't necessarily subscribe to the philosophy that Peter Parker's life is just misery porn, because even in the comics, it's not always a constant string of sorrow. I actually think what makes NWH so effective dramatically and emotionally, is because, for 2 films, Peter's life has been pretty ok. Not perfect, but not a constant struggle.
He has challenges he overcomes, but the fallout for him is relatively "minor," relative to him being a teenager, where, like a lot of us adults tend to forget as we mature, that things like finding a date to homecoming, or impressing adults (teachers, family, mentors, etc), or the courage to confess to a crush, were like, huge deals for us back then!
There's an innocence to the first two movies in this trilogy that really, really sets the stage for this film, and I think it's brilliant. Like any classic Spidey story, there's this calm before the storm. Re-reading The Death of Gwen Stacy graphic novel, there's such a great build up that only really hits upon re-read, where, for the most part, Peter's life is going ok-ish for him. Things are looking up, though seeds of it eventually unraveling are lightly peppered throughout, especially as the story with Harry and Norman begins to unravel.
I don't think Holland gets enough credit for how earnest and likable and flawed he plays Peter. Like how Chris Evans nailed Steve Roger's heart, Holland does the same with Peter.
Holland's Peter really does come off as a kindhearted, empathetic, and good kid.
There's a little moment in Far From Hone that I love, where, after Happy picks him up in the Stark jet, Peter loses his temper and yells and happy, then collects himself and apologizes to Happy, saying he shouldn't have yelled, and it was such a Peter Parker like thing for me.
In this film, though, Holland is put through his paces as an actor, and his growth is just as impressive as the character he playing.
I was honestly dreading No Way Home, and not because of leaks and spoilers, but because I knew, after that mid credits scene in FFH, that shit was about to hit the fan, and not in a good way.
Watching the film had that same feeling of slow buildup of tension as my re-read of The Death of Gwen Stacy, and the result was so effective.
I'm so excited to see where Peter goes next. While the circumstances at the end of the film are bleak, what makes that ending more bittersweet than a full on hopeless downer ending, is that Peter himself isn't wallowing in his current circumstance. His friends are alive and happy and as safe as they can be. That's all that matters to him. He's not wallowing or in shambles. He's pulling himself up and moving forward. New apartment, completing his GED, and still going out there as Spider-Man and helping the people of New York.
It's just such a fucking Spider-Man ending, and I loved it so damn much!
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Right, but he doesn't personally kill them. He knows that they died because they tell him that, but doesn't know (and isn't capable of knowing) what, if anything sending them back will mean. Peter Parker is a selfless person with a kind heart. I've read that over and over as the very core of Spiderman. But in this context, he can't know that there isn't another Spider-villain destroying China right now, or that he didn't just leave a child fatherless by ripping them into another world.
What he does know is that he just helped to destroy Thanos, a world-ending villain who came from the past. The person who ultimately dealt this blow did so by sacrificing his own life at the nick of time, when he had to make a split second decision.
So throughout the film (and in the end) Peter's sense of self-sacrifice and selflessness is in tact, but it's not a decision where the pros outweigh the cons.
Just think back to Loki. New timelines were created where the villains got their second chance at life. So there's a new timeline where Norman lived. Yet another new timeline where Otto lived. Etc.
The Peters go back to their original world where the villains died. But given that they're smart guys who know for a fact that the multiverse is real they can figure out what happened.