Speaking of trans issues let's talk about racism and the general disregard of brands when we call them out for it.

[Mekanos]

As someone who lives in California, and has experienced as much racism here as I had in the Midwest, it's infuriating.

The truth is that, as long as there are places in the world where the majority benefit from institutionalized and systemic racism, there will be racism. California isn't immune to racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. The rhetoric that only Southern states in the US are racist really needs to fucking stop. It's not helping the discussion, or adding to the extermination of hateful, bigoted beliefs and systems.

Click to shrink...

Absolutely, I also live in California, specifically Orange County where there are still tons of Trump supporters and their ilk (not to say racism is exclusive to the Republican party, because it definitely isn't). I have seen posts on this forum that amount to "nuke the south" simply because those states turn red in a Presidential election... when the coastal and urban parts of this country can be just as (and sometimes even more!) racist.

Only by stripping away the systems of power that enable systemic oppression can work be done to make things better.

 

[FFNB]

Absolutely, I also live in California, specifically Orange County where there are still tons of Trump supporters and their ilk (not to say racism is exclusive to the Republican party, because it definitely isn't). I have seen posts on this forum that amount to "nuke the south" simply because those states turn red in a Presidential election... when the coastal and urban parts of this country can be just as (and sometimes even more!) racist.

Only by stripping away the systems of power that enable systemic oppression can work be done to make things better.

Click to shrink...

Exactly! It gets grating seeing people in "progressive" states sitting on their high horses smugly because "their" state is so "woke."

Believe me, if there was anywhere in this country that was genuinely racism free, people of color would be flocking there in droves.

Spoiler: There isn't, and the shit we go through in southern states happens everywhere we set foot.

 

[Nimby]

I think part of it is the intent, Swery apparently did a really good job with trans representation in his last game, and apparently the main character delivers a long speech decrying transphobia in DP2 as well, but apparently some deadnaming happens too. Unfortunately we don't know the context of the scenes yet but if it is bad it's likely unintentional and not malicious which puts it at odds with for example the new Harry Potter game

Click to shrink...

I think York is also the person that does most of the deadnaming and misgendering. Whether the poor trans representation is the product of a poor localization or the intent of the creator remains to be seen, regardless it is abhorrent and unfortunate.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

I think part of it is the intent, Swery apparently did a really good job with trans representation in his last game, and apparently the main character delivers a long speech decrying transphobia in DP2 as well, but apparently some deadnaming happens too. Unfortunately we don't know the context of the scenes yet but if it is bad it's likely unintentional and not malicious which puts it at odds with for example the new Harry Potter game

Click to shrink...

yeah, Swery is a good guy but I do worry that depending on the actual context of that character it might come off as offensive still. That said I'm willing to trust him until the games actually out and we have some actual hands-on with that character and York.

 

[deepFlaw]

Fwiw, there's been some further posts in the DP2 review thread from someone that's played it that make it seem like it might not be as bad as it sounded - there may only be one instance of deadnaming and it has some context (which is still an issue, but better than nothing). Obviously that doesn't mean it's actually fine and I want to play for myself before I can truly judge, but at least it's probably not as bad as it sounded?

...there's also something else I was thinking about even before we had that information that's maybe a complicating factor.

Spoiler: Personal thoughts

I'm a little wary of saying this in case it's not 100% accurate and/or it comes across as defending transphobia, but I feel that I should mention that it's also my understanding that in Japan it's actually more acceptable than it is in the US to frame things as "I was [gender assigned at birth]", not just "I was always [gender]". (I'm flipping through my copy of The Bride Was A Boy, an autobiographical manga written by a trans woman, right now and thinking of some discussions around the announcement of its localized title retaining the original phrasing)

So if it really does have the context of talking about the character's past, I could understand more how that got written that way. That being said, 1. you can almost certainly handle that stuff without a character directly deadnaming them, and 2. a game not only set in America but also targeting people living there as it's primary audience should still probably consider researching/getting consultation for best practices for America. And, well, 3. even if that is the case for talking about your own past in Japan, I'm not sure if it's more acceptable for talking about others' as well?

Again, I don't want to excuse anything or make wildly misinformed statements, especially as good intent doesn't mean too much if you still write something harmful, but I couldn't help but think about that and wanted to think through it more.

 

[Deleted member 19868]

Doesn't help with the racist accents part.

Is there even any point in participating in this hobby if you aren't a white cis male? I'm tired of feeling hated everywhere I go and everywhere I participate by assholes who care more about brands than people. I don't see the point in sticking around in the hobby at all, let alone this forum, because so many people in it are awful.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

Doesn't help with the racist accents part.

Is there even any point in participating in this hobby if you aren't a white cis male? I'm tired of feeling hated everywhere I go and everywhere I participate by assholes who care more about brands than people. I don't see the point in sticking around in the hobby at all, let alone this forum, because so many people in it are awful.

Click to shrink...

Do you have interest in any hobbies besides gaming? I find drawing to be way more rewarding than video games because I'm actually seeing myself improve. Plus it helps calm me whenever I'm depressed or stressed.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Doesn't help with the racist accents part.

Is there even any point in participating in this hobby if you aren't a white cis male? I'm tired of feeling hated everywhere I go and everywhere I participate by assholes who care more about brands than people. I don't see the point in sticking around in the hobby at all, let alone this forum, because so many people in it are awful.

Click to shrink...

The hobby and the surrounding community are two different things. There is a reason so many don't want to be associated with "gamer". I know other than this forum I don't associate with any of the surrounding culture. Sure games themselves sometimes have issues buts it's getting better and the ones that do exist are mostly confined to triple AAA or 1&2 people ultra Indy games. Just play games that don't offend you and end your involvement there.
There are a lot of shitty people that are into comics and manga but I Haven't stopped reading them, I just avoid the stuff around them. It's a hobby not an identity and I would strongly suggest avoiding people that identify themselves by their hobby or a brand no matter what it is.

 

[Kinsei]

Is there even any point in participating in this hobby if you aren't a white cis male? I'm tired of feeling hated everywhere I go and everywhere I participate by assholes who care more about brands than people. I don't see the point in sticking around in the hobby at all, let alone this forum, because so many people in it are awful.

Click to shrink...

I think that myself most days. To be honest had I not turned to gaming as a coping mechanism when I was a child I doubt I would be playing games today.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Fwiw, there's been some further posts in the DP2 review thread from someone that's played it that make it seem like it might not be as bad as it sounded - there may only be one instance of deadnaming and it has some context (which is still an issue, but better than nothing). Obviously that doesn't mean it's actually fine and I want to play for myself before I can truly judge, but at least it's probably not as bad as it sounded?

...there's also something else I was thinking about even before we had that information that's maybe a complicating factor.

Spoiler: Personal thoughts

I'm a little wary of saying this in case it's not 100% accurate and/or it comes across as defending transphobia, but I feel that I should mention that it's also my understanding that in Japan it's actually more acceptable than it is in the US to frame things as "I was [gender assigned at birth]", not just "I was always [gender]". (I'm flipping through my copy of The Bride Was A Boy, an autobiographical manga written by a trans woman, right now and thinking of some discussions around the announcement of its localized title retaining the original phrasing)

So if it really does have the context of talking about the character's past, I could understand more how that got written that way. That being said, 1. you can almost certainly handle that stuff without a character directly deadnaming them, and 2. a game not only set in America but also targeting people living there as it's primary audience should still probably consider researching/getting consultation for best practices for America. And, well, 3. even if that is the case for talking about your own past in Japan, I'm not sure if it's more acceptable for talking about others' as well?

Again, I don't want to excuse anything or make wildly misinformed statements, especially as good intent doesn't mean too much if you still write something harmful, but I couldn't help but think about that and wanted to think through it more.

Click to shrink...

I want to say this as a Trans person and I only speak for myself and how I feel about this, and not to be interpreted as the majority of Trans persons thoughts and feelings.

The "context" does not make this better, if anything it makes it worse. You never, fucking ever have a right to Dead Name, and absolutely not in some way to have it invoke their past. It's a dead name, and very often in this community is tied with abuse and mental issues.

Swery is a good dude from everything we can see and Swery may have even meant well, but that does not make this okay and if anything the lead should have gotten their skull crushed for doing it, especially in the way that they did.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

There's a ready player one thread, and I forgot it was transphobic. I don't think anyone is dismissing the transphobia, racism or sexism, they're just not reading people's post.

Anyway, I'm glad someone brought it up and reminded me about how shitty that book is.

 

[deepFlaw]

I want to say this as a Trans person and I only speak for myself and how I feel about this, and not to be interpreted as the majority of Trans persons thoughts and feelings.

The "context" does not make this better, if anything it makes it worse. You never, fucking ever have a right to Dead Name, and absolutely not in some way to have it invoke their past. It's a dead name, and very often in this community is tied with abuse and mental issues.

Swery is a good dude from everything we can see and Swery may have even meant well, but that does not make this okay and if anything the lead should have gotten their skull crushed for doing it, especially in the way that they did.

Click to shrink...

When it sounded like earlier that the main character was constantly casually deadnaming them, that's what the clarification was better in relation to. It's not that it's good or even acceptable now; I really regret how I worded that post.

With regard to the context,

Spoiler: DP2?

the thing I was thinking about is that their past is relevant to the investigation.

Which is to say- you're right. Because it's fiction, it absolutely should have been written differently. In the theoretical situation of an investigation where their past is directly relevant to working out some part of it, it may make sense for it to have to come up, sure. But... when someone can design that situation to be whatever they want, why design a harmful one that includes bringing up their past to begin with? At worst, it can feel like an attempt to go out of your way to justify including something you know isn't acceptable.

(I guess, disclaimer that I'm assuming there's not a trans writer involved and/or that there was no consulting done by a trans person here; I don't think I'm likely to be wrong in assuming that. Outside of this specific game, I want to leave room for people who want to portray/work through something that was painful to them in their own work. But even something motivated by that can obviously be questioned if it can still cause further harm to others or is handled irresponsibly in a way that causes that. And I'd think doing such a scene right would certainly require a very very different focus/tone/handling/framing than I expect to see here, to say the least.)

I really want to apologize if I came off like I was dismissive or flippant - it's sincerely very upsetting to me that it has any of this at all, and that's not even getting into the potential racism that I've seen mentions of as well. And while it would only be fair to say some of that feeling may be disappointment in something I personally expected better from, that is absolutely second to (or else stemming from) my feelings about seeing it happen in anything to begin with.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

Hope you're doing alright Banshee mcspook
Just wanna add this thread to the pile: https://www.resetera.com/threads/di...cgamer-new-translation-in-threadmarks.244684/

another example of users here disregarding human rights for their vidya

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Alright, the Ready player one thread turned into a bunch of people not "understanding" why people have gripes with the book.

'Ready Player Two' sequel novel to release this November

era's favorite novelist is back

www.resetera.com

 

[Deleted member 4532]

Alright, the Ready player one thread turned into a bunch of people not "understanding" why people have gripes with the book.

'Ready Player Two' sequel novel to release this November

era's favorite novelist is back

www.resetera.com

Click to shrink...

Whew good thing I never touched the first book. It felt like a cringe fest anyway.

 

[Kinsei]

Alright, the Ready player one thread turned into a bunch of people not "understanding" why people have gripes with the book.

'Ready Player Two' sequel novel to release this November

era's favorite novelist is back

www.resetera.com

Click to shrink...

Time is a circle. Fuck time.

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Whew good thing I never touched the first book. It felt like a cringe fest anyway.

Click to shrink...

Me neither. When it was first popular, I bought a copy as a gift for a friend who wanted to read it. I flipped through it real quick and saw the pages of references and decided it wasn't for me. I only found out about the actual issues the book has right when the movie was in production.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

Hope you're doing alright Banshee mcspook
Just wanna add this thread to the pile: https://www.resetera.com/threads/di...cgamer-new-translation-in-threadmarks.244684/

another example of users here disregarding human rights for their vidya

Click to shrink...

I saw that I'm not suprised honestly even with the new translation.

 

[Nimby]

I saw that I'm not suprised honestly even with the new translation.

Click to shrink...

Cyberpunk looks less appealing to me every passing day.

 

[PlanetSmasher]

Cyberpunk looks less appealing to me every passing day.

Click to shrink...

I've been watching the Cyberpunk stuff from a distance since "first person only" is an instant dealbreaker for me, but man it's been tragically depressing to see a studio who made one of my favorite RPGs of the past 2 decades (TW3) fail so hard, so consistently and so flagrantly. At some point the benefit of the doubt has to wear off, and seeing people just be like "still buyin' it day one, this doesn't matter!" after all the crap CDPR has been doing without so much as an apology or a "we want to do better" statement has been exhausting.

 

[Razmos]

At this point I'm of the opinion that threads about Cyberpunk should be banned.
There is no defense for the developers any more, they have shown time and time again their true colours and even just as an ally I am getting exhausted by it, every thread is a goddamn battle and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I cant imagine how stressful and painful it is for the trans community here to have to deal with this.

We need to start being tougher on this if we want to foster a community that actually cares about more than a fucking videogame.

At what point will it be enough?

 

[Deleted member 64002]

At this point I'm of the opinion that threads about Cyberpunk should be banned.
There is no defense for the developers any more, they have shown time and time again their true colours and even just as an ally I am getting exhausted by it, every thread is a goddamn battle and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. I cant imagine how stressful and painful it is for the trans community here to have to deal with this.

We need to start being tougher on this if we want to foster a community that actually cares about more than a fucking videogame.

At what point will it be enough?

Click to shrink...

I just hope people scrutinize the game for being shitty to trans people when their social media guy is doing shit like this.

 

[Deleted member 15311]

I just hope people scrutinize the game for being shitty to trans people when their social media guy is doing shit like this.

Click to shrink...

WTF? That's fucking stupid and they're showing their ass even more, it's like they were not happy and still pilling on.

 

[Nimby]

Cyberpunk's Twitter account posting cringe again?

It reads like "own the libs" crap. Glad my interest in this game faded a while ago.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

Oh it gets better, same thread that post was from instead of checking out the story and realizing the "mistranslation" was one sentence and it only changed the wording it's now "mistranslated and not accurate" and "how PC gamer is framing it" and I guess Gamespot picked up the story and on cue "they are also going with the mistranslation and not framing it accurately".

Seriously, if ERA mods and admin want to truly support the trans community and truly want us here they need to come up with a policy, any cyberpunk or CDProjekt thread needs an official mod policy post, and bans for breaking it need to be swift and across the board.

As I have said like the KC:D threads, I don't care if the game is discussed but any handwaving/dismissal/covering of the problems should be moddable. As is the policy is we can go in those threads and bring up concerns but all that happens is we get dismissed or dogpiled, so we make threads to discuss these issues and they come into those and dismiss/handwave/make excuses.

I really am at the point I do not feel we are welcome here and not just by members.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

Made a thread
https://www.resetera.com/threads/cy...-with-rejecting-criticism-of-the-game.245620/

 

[Hesdry]

Thank you for this tread! What I like about this community is the high rate of bans. To do better, only if any type of racism, misogyny, homophobic and transphobic will be permanent ban.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

I often wonder why threads go to shit after the first page or two and honestly I'm not suprised.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

"It's just a mistranslation! They're still good!"
"It's just a rouge employee on Twitter! They're still good!"
"It's just one mission in The Witcher 3! They're still good!"
"I-It's just a joke! They're still good!"

 

[Deleted member 64002]

"It's just a mistranslation! They're still good!"
"It's just a rouge employee on Twitter! They're still good!"
"It's just one mission in The Witcher 3! They're still good!"
"I-It's just a joke! They're still good!"

Click to shrink...

That games still gonna sell well no matter what we say .-.

 

[Faith]

It's simply amazing how many get out of jail free cards they have here, people are so desperate to defend the honour of their shitty video game company.

 

[Deleted member 4532]

That games still gonna sell well no matter what we say .-.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, but I'm fine knowing I won't be giving these hacks any of my money. Cyberpunk always looked like yet another open world title and I wasn't all that into The Witcher 3 despite the high praise it gets.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

Yeah, but I'm fine knowing I won't be giving these hacks any of my money. Cyberpunk always looked like yet another open world title and I wasn't all that into The Witcher 3 despite the high praise it gets.

Click to shrink...

I sadly enjoyed Witcher 3 so it stings all the more with this stuff.

 

[yunarukami]

Mod Edit: Troll content removed

 

[Deleted member 4532]

Mod Edit: Troll content removed

Click to shrink...

Bro shouldn't you be saving Yukiko before the fog sets in?

 

[Cenauru]

I often wonder why threads go to shit after the first page or two and honestly I'm not suprised.

Click to shrink...

I would guess it's because of people who actively search those threads are more likely to be shitty people than those who see it while casually browsing. And of course, after a few pages trolls have a ton of posts to cherry-pick to quote to start arguments and so on.

 

[Kopite]

"It's just one mission in The Witcher 3! They're still good!"

Click to shrink...

What's this in reference to?

 

[Steak]

I would guess it's because of people who actively search those threads are more likely to be shitty people than those who see it while casually browsing. And of course, after a few pages trolls have a ton of posts to cherry-pick to quote to start arguments and so on.

Click to shrink...

after a few pages you're in the danger zone where no one that is just entering will bother to read the thread to that point. so there's a moderately plausible deniability that the people asking repetitive questions are not intentionally trolling. this gives trolls the opportunity to wear out the patience of marginalised people trying to explain their point of view to the point of frustration. and then the trolls attack those frustrated people for being rude or hostile. it's sealioning but the culprit is a number of revolving posters, rather one specific person.

asking those questions that have already been answered is bad faith regardless of if you've read the thread or not. a good faith way of getting them answered would be to read the thread.

 

[Cenauru]

after a few pages you're in the danger zone where no one that is just entering will bother to read the thread to that point. so there's a moderately plausible deniability that the people asking repetitive questions are not intentionally trolling. this gives trolls the opportunity to wear out the patience of marginalised people trying to explain their point of view to the point of frustration. and then the trolls attack those frustrated people for being rude or hostile. it's sealioning but the culprit is a number of revolving posters, rather one specific person.

asking those questions that have already been answered is bad faith regardless of if you've read the thread or not. a good faith way of getting them answered would be to read the thread.

Click to shrink...

Yeah that sounds about right, a sea of posters with trolls hidden throughout hoping to egg on marginalized folks enough to get them to blow up. It really is exhausting.

 

[Luminish]

Oh it gets better, same thread that post was from instead of checking out the story and realizing the "mistranslation" was one sentence and it only changed the wording it's now "mistranslated and not accurate" and "how PC gamer is framing it" and I guess Gamespot picked up the story and on cue "they are also going with the mistranslation and not framing it accurately".

Seriously, if ERA mods and admin want to truly support the trans community and truly want us here they need to come up with a policy, any cyberpunk or CDProjekt thread needs an official mod policy post, and bans for breaking it need to be swift and across the board.

As I have said like the KC:D threads, I don't care if the game is discussed but any handwaving/dismissal/covering of the problems should be moddable. As is the policy is we can go in those threads and bring up concerns but all that happens is we get dismissed or dogpiled, so we make threads to discuss these issues and they come into those and dismiss/handwave/make excuses.

I really am at the point I do not feel we are welcome here and not just by members.

Click to shrink...

The ERA mods actively boosted the argument it was a mistranslation by treadmarking a post making the same argument.

I personally there's a very blurry subjective line between Hands on moderating to create a safe space, and hands off moderating to let issues be hashed out, which I personally lean more hands off for than others in this topic.

But between "civility" bans of allies arguing for trans people, title changes, threadmarks, and locking of topics, there's been a lot that goes beyond just being too hands off.

 

[herminihildo]

as someone from Asia, racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia and are wide spread due conservative beliefs. I believe the cis white man goes beyond as physical attributes, it becomes a mentality adopted by locals. JK makes it worse as her influence is huge and the same goes for these toxic youtubers.

reading through this thread and the trans ally link made me realize that I still have ways to understanding these issues and how to support this community.

 

[Jonnax]

CD Projekt don't deserve the benefit of the doubt because they squandered it everytime they've had a scandal.
If they want to prove they aren't they really need to make real statements.

I posted in that thread.
But this is what happens in Poland:
So their statement of "both sides need to tolerate each other" is disingenuous.

LGBT-free zone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The elephant in the room is that video games are conservative.
How much of the gaming community is saying "Fuck off Call of Duty, you glorify war crimes" not much.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

CD Projekt don't deserve the benefit of the doubt because they squandered it everytime they've had a scandal.
If they want to prove they aren't they really need to make real statements.

I posted in that thread.
But this is what happens in Poland:
So their statement of "both sides need to tolerate each other" is disingenuous.

LGBT-free zone - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The elephant in the room is that video games are conservative.
How much of the gaming community is saying "Fuck off Call of Duty, you glorify war crimes" not much.

Click to shrink...

If you want quality entertainment that's made by less shitty people honestly we're just better off with our Indy games. There's enough of those made by good people who had inventive ideas that are Allie's.

 

[DOA]

poland is going through an election these days (today is the second phase), and the current president, Andrzej Duda, is going on a very intolerant platform: anti LGBTQ and antisemitism


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-53342667/poland-election-the-fight-for-lgbt-rights

 

[His Majesty]

poland is going through an election these days (today is the second phase), and the current president, Andrzej Duda, is going on a very intolerant platform: anti LGBTQ and antisemitism


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-53342667/poland-election-the-fight-for-lgbt-rights

Click to shrink...

On 18 February 2019, Trzaskowski signed a 12 point LGBT Declaration and announced his intention to follow World Health Organization guidelines. This declaration aimed at fighting discrimination of the LGBT community and provides guidance in such areas as security, education, culture, sport, administration, and work. Proposed actions range from providing shelter to LGBT teenagers rejected by their families, the introduction of local crisis intervention helplines, and providing access to anti-discrimination and sex education at city schools.

Click to shrink...

Seems like opinion polls have it at 50-50. Rooting for Trzaskowski.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

Aight I know I said I wouldn't link any more threads but fuck this one in particular. Fucking people dismissing non binary people is fucked up and I won't stand for this shit. https://www.resetera.com/threads/fa...already-have-me-tired-read-threadmark.246523/

 

[Seductivpancakes]

Aight I know I said I wouldn't link any more threads but fuck this one in particular. Fucking people dismissing non binary people is fucked up and I won't stand for this shit. https://www.resetera.com/threads/fa...already-have-me-tired-read-threadmark.246523/

Click to shrink...

It really is. I don't even think they know what they're doing as well, which is arguably worse.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

The elephant in the room is that video games are conservative.

Click to shrink...

Yes. And the last time this point of discussion popped up here, a lot of people disagreed.

 

[Deleted member 64002]

It's happening again...

 

[Deleted member 4532]

It's happening again...

Click to shrink...

Lots of people in that thread talking about how excited they are for Cyberpunk as well. You'll never see them in threads like this one or the twitter thread. It's like, we can keep talking about the issues with CDPR but it does feel like threads like this will never reach those people because they can just automatically ignore them.