• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Mossiah

Member
Aug 28, 2018
206
New York
What I don't get is the lack of basic skills like reading the room.

Thread: "Here's a studio concerned working on a property that directly benefits a bigot, and here are thoughts of fellow community members that the actions of this bigot affect."

Response: "I love property and game"
This is a particular gear grinder for me. The amount of people that will take blind fanboyism over even checking themselves and realizing that this isn't the thread or conversation for that type of rhetoric is never not disheartening. At worst it is damn frustrating.
At best, that's indifference, but it's closer to deflection
At every moment when the forum decides to bring up an issue that deals with issues targeting a minority group that many that inhabit the sub don't happen to be be the target of, it is responded to with thinly veiled indifference at best and at worst blatant advocacy. The recent GTA/UC4/Harry Potter triple punch in particular made it clear that there was a ever-brewing loud sect of people that feel like it is okay to just not give a damn about issues because it doesn't concern them. Along with the ever present reminder that there are people that don't care because they share these beliefs.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
there are actually people that thought lauren bailey was the best voice for a south african character than actual south africans.

c'mon people.

"THE MOST TALENTED PERSON FOR THE JOB SHOULD GET THE JOB"
"but she didn't even do that good a job"

I tried so hard in that thread to point out that acting isn't actually a meritocracy, and voice acting even less so, and those takes still flowed like fucking WATER.
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
If those types of posters keep getting reported/banned hopefully it'll improve.

I don't know about this tbh. My two cents on this, and I thought about this for quite some time already.
Reporting, yes.
But ERA moderation doesn't really use lesser time-frames for bans and bans in general are sometimes way too long. My way would be education > punishment.

You could do 1,3,5 days first, then a week. Get people to learn, not everyone has the same mindset/environment. Era is basically a bubble and once you find it, you might want to participate but don't understand a consensus on stuff. If you get immediately toasted with a perma or unencouraging long bans, you won't get people to change. That being said, I saw enough permas that were reasonable from the go too. But yeah, I see way too less short bans that should make you think.

I don't know what some people expect sometimes. We're all in this together. The "you're not welcome" needs to change to a "look, it's like that!". "You POS/ Get out" needs to change to a "rethink pls". If people immediately get discouraged, they won't be like "omfg omfg omfg I was banned from ERA what should I do. I need something that replaces it ASAP and need to get super liberal, democratic and pride to get back on board". No, it probably doesn't work like this. The person's probably gone. Made the only viable option to give Era a hard pass.

I said it forever and will say it again: if something is rotten from the inside, you need to change it. America won't be great with Biden for example. Just because a Democrat is president, you'll still have nearly 50% that voted for Trump the prior election.

Whoever says "well, but we're no school". Well duh. Fine. But then don't blame people that get raised in often racist places or environments that never had a chance to see another perspective.

Of course, in all of this, obvious trolls or alts are not included.

Education > all
 

Faith

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,879
UK
Some of the stuff I saw in that HP thread with the poll was straight up anger inducing. People are so desperate to twist things to suit their own agenda, like I'm not going to scour it again and my memory might be a little hazy but I'm so sure there was a post that was basically along the lines of 'you're punishing the developers by not buying it', like just get out of here with that crap.

Every single similar thread has the exact same issues, it's like a roundabout that doesn't have an exit turn so you're just driving over the same shit over and over again, with people just downplaying the issues brought up, finding excuses for them/complete deflection by bringing up something completely unrelated, drive-by shitposting without even reading the OP or even having cis people straight up telling us what is and what isn't transphobic. It's so demoralising and mentally draining.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 64002

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2020
813
I don't know about this tbh. My two cents on this, and I thought about this for quite some time already.
Reporting, yes.
But ERA moderation doesn't really use lesser time-frames for bans and bans in general are sometimes way too long. My way would be education > punishment.

You could do 1,3,5 days first, then a week. Get people to learn, not everyone has the same mindset/environment. Era is basically a bubble and once you find it, you might want to participate but don't understand a consensus on stuff. If you get immediately toasted with a perma or unencouraging long bans, you won't get people to change. That being said, I saw enough permas that were reasonable from the go too. But yeah, I see way too less short bans that should make you think.

I don't know what some people expect sometimes. We're all in this together. The "you're not welcome" needs to change to a "look, it's like that!". "You POS/ Get out" needs to change to a "rethink pls". If people immediately get discouraged, they won't be like "omfg omfg omfg I was banned from ERA what should I do. I need something that replaces it ASAP and need to get super liberal, democratic and pride to get back on board". No, it probably doesn't work like this. The person's probably gone. Made the only viable option to give Era a hard pass.

I said it forever and will say it again: if something is rotten from the inside, you need to change it. America won't be great with Biden for example. Just because a Democrat is president, you'll still have nearly 50% that voted for Trump the prior election.

Whoever says "well, but we're no school". Well duh. Fine. But then don't blame people that get raised in often racist places or environments that never had a chance to see another perspective.

Of course, in all of this, obvious trolls or alts are not included.

Education > all
Counter point alt accounts and alot of folks not learning their lesson regardless of their ban. We can't keep coddling these people when it's so blatant they either won't learn their lesson or will double down it's a genuine issue.
 
Oct 27, 2017
115
Christ, that one about EU reparations really shocked me. Thank you for posting this. I hold Era up to be a really good place to talk and have been disappointed recently with folks. Glad I'm not alone and the links are helpful in shining a light on these issues. As others have pointed out, Era is pretty good at moderating but no place is perfect and threads like these will hopefully help us grow.
 

Deleted member 18857

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,083
Thanks for the OP, OP. One one hand, I agree with everything you said. On the other, I just don't have much hope in general and just use the ignore function (for people and for threads) liberally. For me the thing that broke the camel's back was not even related to transphobia or racism, it's how THQN's 8chan debacle was quickly swept under the rug because some people really want to play their games. There's really no coming back from 8 chan, and yet, yeay, Darksiders and Bio Mutant are coming, prepare the threads!

I hope I am wrong and you are right.
 
Update I will no longer be accepting thread sugguestions to the op there are plenty now
OP
OP

Deleted member 64002

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2020
813
If anyone has another thread that should go into the op let me know!

Edit: I will be no longer accepting suggestions for new threads there are plenty now.
Edit edit: I will however threadmark threads that are really bad from time to time.
 
Last edited:

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
Counter point alt accounts and alot of folks not learning their lesson regardless of their ban. We can't keep coddling these people when it's so blatant they either won't learn their lesson or will double down it's a genuine issue.

Yeah I know it's a genuine issue. I see it. I wrote the part with alts extra as I know there are obvious instances where people just doubled down with another new account. I'd still like people to change their opinion if possible, rather than saying "well, go".

Especially since I often ask myself: who finds era? What is like, you know, a step? A casual gamer? Maybe.
But then there's also the possibility that someone is already more left leaning, looking for a more liberal gaming board, finds it, but still hasn't like.. found some perspectives that more or less need to be unlocked depending on where you are from and how you grew up. If this person gets a perma immediately, I dunno. Like.. wasted chance right there or not?

Anyway, good that you bring the topic to the gaming side too.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
If one doesn't mind me saying a few words since the OP already threw it out there, I think the issue we're seeing is two-fold.

1.) Gaming culture has always been marked by a measurable hostility to minorities being that it was purposefully cultivated as a safe space for straight, white, cis dudes who felt marginalized from the schoolyard bullying towards the hobby. This meant that the mere presence of minorities was a threat, because the juxtaposition means straight, white, cis dudes can no longer claim marginalization with any sort of clout, hence the rebuking of the "politics" that reminds them of this fact.

2.) Gaming is extremely capitalist in nature, and capitalism is amoral at best and hostile at worst to the needs of minorities. To partake in gaming to any noticeable degree, you gotta be willing to shell out the money for the products. System wars culture during many posters' formative pre-teen and teenage years means people tied actual personal investment into the performance of any given brand's hardware and software, and it's become a hallmark of the culture. To ask gamers then to take a moral stand that gets in the way of participation in the hobby is like asking a fish to not swim.

So what you get when these two observations collide is a permanent undercurrent of hostility that wears down all by the most rabid of gamers who specifically jive with the constant fighting. ERA's goals to instead create a safe space for minorities to be heard, listened to, and welcomed, and for minority sociopolitical issues to be discussed in detail in gaming culture and beyond, literally runs counter to modern gaming culture. You are literally asking a large contingent of the community to just suddenly go against their own cultivated identity, biases, and preconceived notions, and that's going to feel like an attack. Hence all of the white fragility, the attempts to shut down or brigade discussions, the concern trolling and JAQing off, and so on. ERA is sort of at odds with itself, and I've yet to think up a quick solution for the problem.

One thing I do think we need to reckon with that wonderful little space of plausible deniability, where anyone can come in and derail a thread in a seeming attempt to be educated or play Devil's Advocate, and the difference between them and a legitimate asshole is completely obfuscated, and the end result is that you have a bunch of minority members who have been personally hurt by someone from the out-group, yet again, intruding in a space and causing mayhem. Now, I am personally old as far as forums go, and tired as well. I say if the difference between an idiot and a bigot cannot be determined, they're both effectively the same and should be treated as such, thus putting the onus on people to read and prime themselves first instead of spouting whatever problematic idea comes into their head just because they deserve the benefit of the doubt and have a right to be nicely corrected by minorities. Because if that presumptuous shit gets on my nerves, I know it gets on y'alls.

That's just one idea. But in general, I think we all need to reckon with what ERA needs to be for its members and what that might look like going forward. Because for all of the fighting, tension, frustration, and harsh words, I think ERA is important in that it is pretty much the only (relatively) leftist space in gaming, where you can go and actually talk about these things and be relatively certain that staff want to work with you in cultivating that environment, that we don't want this to be like the wider Internet at large. I think that's a little special in its own way, and thus as tired as I can be, I think the heart and idea of this place is worth fighting for.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 5086

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,571
I don't know about this tbh. My two cents on this, and I thought about this for quite some time already.
Reporting, yes.
But ERA moderation doesn't really use lesser time-frames for bans and bans in general are sometimes way too long. My way would be education > punishment.

You could do 1,3,5 days first, then a week. Get people to learn, not everyone has the same mindset/environment. Era is basically a bubble and once you find it, you might want to participate but don't understand a consensus on stuff. If you get immediately toasted with a perma or unencouraging long bans, you won't get people to change. That being said, I saw enough permas that were reasonable from the go too. But yeah, I see way too less short bans that should make you think.

I don't know what some people expect sometimes. We're all in this together. The "you're not welcome" needs to change to a "look, it's like that!". "You POS/ Get out" needs to change to a "rethink pls". If people immediately get discouraged, they won't be like "omfg omfg omfg I was banned from ERA what should I do. I need something that replaces it ASAP and need to get super liberal, democratic and pride to get back on board". No, it probably doesn't work like this. The person's probably gone. Made the only viable option to give Era a hard pass.

I said it forever and will say it again: if something is rotten from the inside, you need to change it. America won't be great with Biden for example. Just because a Democrat is president, you'll still have nearly 50% that voted for Trump the prior election.

Whoever says "well, but we're no school". Well duh. Fine. But then don't blame people that get raised in often racist places or environments that never had a chance to see another perspective.

Of course, in all of this, obvious trolls or alts are not included.

Education > all
This is actually how moderation was like at first. It did not work. Many people were happy to take a warning, or short ban, if it meant they could JAQ off or even overtly troll women and minorities (including the staff themselves, I've seen it happening in real time). Furthermore, I don't think you realise how absolutely daunting this shit is. Even for minority staff who have the power to ban members. Minorities are called minorities for a reason. The majority of this forum are white, cis het men. It's not fair to the minority and marginalised members to have to constantly explain things to the dismissive and often in bad faith privileged members. And yes, a lot of it is awfully dismissive. More often than not, responses to sensitive concerns are rude, dismissive and even hostile, when it doesn't need to be this way at all. It doesn't cost you anything at all to be more sensitive when approaching these kinds of discussions, even if you're ignorant. There are many issues that I am not knowledgeable on, but I sit back and read and learn in those cases.

No one takes pleasure from banning people. I certainly don't, at least. In an ideal forum, these bans wouldn't have to happen at all. But this forum is far from perfect, and without the moderation, it would be far worse. So in short, your approach sadly just does not work in practice.
 

srtrestre

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,965
If anyone has another thread that should go into the op let me know!
This one:

www.resetera.com

Have to say, old ResetEra spirit is kinda dead on gaming side

Every time I log on to this place, it’s a new headline of something negative, something clickbait, or a “call-out” thread. A large sum of post amount to nothing more than name calling and dog-piling. At times, this is due to serious, important subjects that need to be discussed and can be...

A thinly veiled "git politiks outta mah vidya gaimes" thread if there ever was one.
 

Ricky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
909
FVdMsAL.png

Reposting this from the other thread so people don't have to look for it.
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 64002

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2020
813
This one:

www.resetera.com

Have to say, old ResetEra spirit is kinda dead on gaming side

Every time I log on to this place, it’s a new headline of something negative, something clickbait, or a “call-out” thread. A large sum of post amount to nothing more than name calling and dog-piling. At times, this is due to serious, important subjects that need to be discussed and can be...

A thinly veiled "git politiks outta mah vidya gaimes" thread if there ever was one.
The joke there is that the spirit of gaming side has been opressive to minorities and women for ages. I'll add it to the op
 

Mossiah

Member
Aug 28, 2018
206
New York
I say if the difference between an idiot and a bigot cannot be determined, they're both effectively the same and should be treated as such, thus putting the onus on people to read and prime themselves first instead of spouting whatever problematic idea comes into their head just because they deserve the benefit of the doubt and have a right to be nicely corrected by minorities.
I absolutely agree that this is not the place to coddle and educate those that have chosen to be ignorant. Ignorance is a choice, if you chose not to combat it and inform yourself it is not the responsibility of those minorities to pick up the slack for you.
I think that's a little special in its own way, and thus as tired as I can be, I think the heart and idea of this place is worth fighting for.
👏
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.

It sucks for a developer that got wrapped up in all of this, but this project has been in development for many years now and JK's problematic TERF habits have been known to the world for likely as long as the game has been in development.

The world does not need a Harry Potter RPG, and at the same time, JK Rowling did not need to double down, triple down, quadruple down, quintuple down, sextuple down, septuple down (and so on and so forth) with her transphobia. If a member of the development staff disagrees with JK's stance on trans people they have had several years to quit the project. It would be sad if an entire developer shut down because they were IP-tied to an intellectual property owned and maintained by a raging transphobe, but that's another issue altogether in terms of how hostile and volatile the gaming industry is as a BUSINESS.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to not buy the game if they do not want to support Rowling financially. These particular developers are not owed our support any more than any other developers.
 

Huxley

Member
Feb 20, 2019
127
Problem with polls is that some, but not all, voters have well-meaning reasons for voting a certain way. Meaning the numbers only tell half the story.

For developers reluctantly stuck making a Harry Potter game, that seems like a golden opportunity to turn the tables and use the game to promote inclusiveness and positive messages to marginalized communities. Drown out a problematic tweet with something positive and much more memorable and engaging. Its a way to stick it to the author by using their own brand to counter their message.
 

Ryu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
This is actually how moderation was like at first. It did not work. Many people were happy to take a warning, or short ban, if it meant they could JAQ off or even overtly troll women and minorities (including the staff themselves, I've seen it happening in real time). Furthermore, I don't think you realise how absolutely daunting this shit is. Even for minority staff who have the power to ban members. Minorities are called minorities for a reason. The majority of this forum are white, cis het men. It's not fair to the minority and marginalised members to have to constantly explain things to the dismissive and often in bad faith privileged members. And yes, a lot of it is awfully dismissive. More often than not, responses to sensitive concerns are rude, dismissive and even hostile, when it doesn't need to be this way at all. It doesn't cost you anything at all to be more sensitive when approaching these kinds of discussions, even if you're ignorant. There are many issues that I am not knowledgeable on, but I sit back and read and learn in those cases.

No one takes pleasure from banning people. I certainly don't, at least. In an ideal forum, these bans wouldn't have to happen at all. But this forum is far from perfect, and without the moderation, it would be far worse. So in short, your approach sadly just does not work in practice.

Well then.. that's actually super sad. I did hope that this was maybe an appropriate approach, as in I did not know that there was already this way of handling things prior. Just really sad tbh. I know that obviously there are people that are far too gone to be educated a different way. Still would've liked to think that there's rather a chance to change some minds here and there. With all this being said, surely didn't want to say that you like to ban people, don't get me wrong. Thanks for this insight.
 

Nimby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,217
Fuck em. Seriously done being shocked at the lengths some users will go to defend bigotry.

They claim to have a moral compass only when it is convenient to them.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
Problem with polls is that some, but not all, voters have well-meaning reasons for voting a certain way. Meaning the numbers only tell half the story.

For developers reluctantly stuck making a Harry Potter game, that seems like a golden opportunity to turn the tables and use the game to promote inclusiveness and positive messages to marginalized communities. Drown out a problematic tweet with something positive and much more memorable and engaging. Its a way to stick it to the author by using their own brand to counter their message.

JK Rowling has final content approval of any and all media created using her intellectual property, and could likely sue the developers for putting a "TAKE THAT" message targeted at her into the game. And at the end of the day, even if they did that, all they're doing is trying to ask people to give JK Rowling money anyways for the sake of a message.

Like I get the idea you're putting forth here, but a Harry Potter game that pokes fun at JK Rowling would likely A) get the developers sued and B) would still benefit JK in the end.
 

Ricky

Member
Oct 25, 2017
909
It sucks for a developer that got wrapped up in all of this, but this project has been in development for many years now and JK's problematic TERF habits have been known to the world for likely as long as the game has been in development.

The world does not need a Harry Potter RPG, and at the same time, JK Rowling did not need to double down, triple down, quadruple down, quintuple down, sextuple down, septuple down (and so on and so forth) with her transphobia. If a member of the development staff disagrees with JK's stance on trans people they have had several years to quit the project. It would be sad if an entire developer shut down because they were IP-tied to an intellectual property owned and maintained by a raging transphobe, but that's another issue altogether in terms of how hostile and volatile the gaming industry is as a BUSINESS.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to not buy the game if they do not want to support Rowling financially. These particular developers are not owed our support any more than any other developers.
Ah that makes sense. I honestly haven't followed this game much as we have not seen anything official from it, or at least I don't think we have. I was going to post that all devs who felt offended or disgusted should quit the project but I wasn't sure of the details. I also didn't know she had made offensive comments multiple times in the past. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,975
OP, feel free to create more threads because I agree with everything you've said in both.

I'm too tired and exhausted emotionally to add much but people who are accustomed to privilege and are comfortable with their experiences at the expense of others need to do some self reflection, start listening and make an attempt to confront their own bigoted biases that lead them to reductionist reasoning and downplaying the legitimate and very real concerns of marginalized communities.

This board is predominantly cisgender heteronormative white males which, obviously, is the primary demographic that the gaming industry has always catered to and leads to a lot of the dismissal and handwaving away of intolerance unfortunately. The implicit reaction from a lot of them is to jump to the defense of individuals and entities when they are called out or boycotts are advocated because as long as they are entertained, that is the matter that takes most precedence. It's frustrating, wrong, unsurprising and typical of the privilege they benefit from in every aspect of life.
 

Beth Cyra

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,903
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.
Insensitive? Are you fucking kidding me?

The shit she said is used to attack and belittle communities. The things she says are the cause of young men, women, and NB's to kill themselves because this world hates them. The things she said are used to verbally, physically, and mentally abuse human beings.

This stuff is so much more than just insensitive and that is why people just being excited for Harry Potter is so heart breaking as it shows people's enjoyment is enough to overlook the sheer damage done by people with power like JK.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
This is a particular gear grinder for me. The amount of people that will take blind fanboyism over even checking themselves and realizing that this isn't the thread or conversation for that type of rhetoric is never not disheartening. At worst it is damn frustrating.

At every moment when the forum decides to bring up an issue that deals with issues targeting a minority group that many that inhabit the sub don't happen to be be the target of, it is responded to with thinly veiled indifference at best and at worst blatant advocacy. The recent GTA/UC4/Harry Potter triple punch in particular made it clear that there was a ever-brewing loud sect of people that feel like it is okay to just not give a damn about issues because it doesn't concern them. Along with the ever present reminder that there are people that don't care because they share these beliefs.

Most of the time they know this, and they do it on purpose to spite those who are calling these things out.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
Ah that makes sense. I honestly haven't followed this game much as we have not seen anything official from it, or at least I don't think we have. I was going to post that all devs who felt offended or disgusted should quit the project but I wasn't sure of the details. I also didn't know she had made offensive comments multiple times in the past. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

That's the kicker - the game hasn't even been formally announced yet. It's been a terribly-kept secret for about two to three years now, and Rowling has been flirting with the TERF community for probably about four or five? The manifesto she put out recently is just her latest onslaught of TERF content, and if not for the fact she's one of the richest people on the planet right now she'd probably be a few stray tweets away from being banned from Twitter just like Graham Linehan was.

For context: Her TERF bullshit is being used by Republicans in Congress to try and pass anti-LGBT legislation. That's how destructive her behavior is.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936

Seductivpancakes

user requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,790
Brooklyn
Counter point alt accounts and alot of folks not learning their lesson regardless of their ban. We can't keep coddling these people when it's so blatant they either won't learn their lesson or will double down it's a genuine issue.
Yep. Even those banned for weeks or a month. They come back, and get banned again for the same reason, and I don't see why it shouldn't be a permanent ban after that. Those people ain't spending those 3 months of ban time, thinking about their mistakes or how to better themselves. They gonna stay being racist/sexist/transphobic, etc.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
Entertainment and creature comforts are an important part of some people's identity and they mold societal needs and expectations around them. Conviction is a terrifying prospect to those that say "if you care about this thing, you will have to care about these other things too, gotcha!" because caring is hard and inconvenient so they live and preach whatabout-statis. Their only goal is to maintain the status-quo so they can enjoy their toys with out their conscious getting in the way. They say some variant of "That's reality", "Thats the way the world works.", "Thats they way it is". Like they are some passive and wise observers handing down life lessons when what they leave out is "because I'm actively doing my part to make it this way".

That's before racists and bigots even enter the equation. Your average social nihilist does enough damage on their own.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
20,675
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.
I want to ask a question in turn: Why does the welfare of a studio suddenly become the utmost importance when people are concerned about the ethics of spending money on a game, and yet in any other context where you don't want to buy a game, the studio's welfare is either forgotten, or in some cases horrible working conditions are cheered on as "passion" or explained away as "the cost of making games?"

If the Harry Potter looked like it sucked, and thus few people wanted to buy it, the studio is in the same exact position as it would be if gamers collectively decided to not buy it because they didn't want to reward the transphobic asshole who produced the source material of the game with more money. But it would not be controversial to not buy a game because it looks unappealing, despite the fact that the same result occurs: the studio loses out on sales.

This goes back to my point about asking gamers to take a moral stand that gets in the way of participating in the hobby, btw. But overall, consumers are not obligated to buy a video game for any reason, and artists are not owed success just because they made a product. Ultimately though, asking these kinds of questions, even in good-faith, put this ridiculous guilt-trip on top of minorities and their allies to give money to people who inherently undermine their existence and quality of life. Again, the fact is if I said I didn't want to buy the game because I didn't like RPGS, no one would then browbeat me about the developer's welfare and ask me "what happens if the game bombs?" Who the fuck cares?
 

Faith

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,879
UK
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.

See, this is the sort of shit we just see all the time, twisting things to suit your agenda. 'think of the poor developers!'

Yeah sure, people might not be insensitive to the issues but lets not pretend that people want to buy it to 'support the devs', they want it because they want to play a Harry Potter game. I don't think I've ever seen 'supporting the devs' being used as a reason to a purchase of a game that doesn't have the same sort of sensitive issues.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 64002

User requested account closure
Banned
Feb 19, 2020
813
I feel like slot of this discourse and discussion has been centered around the Harry Potter stuff but I want to remind talk the naughty dog shit is just as bad.
 

Combo

Banned
Jan 8, 2019
2,437
As much as this place tries to pretend they aren't racist. A lot of people on here are racist or closet racist.
I think there should be action taken against racism (and other bigotry) but if someone is a closet racist then them staying here will hopefully change them a bit. Unless of course they are having a negative impact covertly.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,120
I'll just copy/paste what I said in the other thread:

For me it's the poll combined with people who frequently do drive-bys in these threads about "can't wait to play the game" and "I love Harry Potter" who clearly don't care and want to let everyone know how much they don't care, or try to do a roundabout way to explain how their purchasing choice is actually Good and Woke.

I don't think people are evil awful horrible people for buying a Harry Potter game. I do think many of those people though are unwilling to even consider relenting because the money is going to an out and out TERF.

I'm not much of a Harry Potter fan, but I am a huge Smash Bros. fan. If suddenly Masahiro Sakurai started to tweet out transphobic nonsense I would very seriously consider never buying one of his games again unless he walked back his statements.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
31,998
I understand that she made some insensitive comments but I think a lot of people just truly want to play a Harry Potter RPG. It doesn't always mean that they are insensitive to the issues at hand. There's a whole studio working on this game. Should everyone just stop working on the game? If not, should no one at all buy the game? What would happen to those people who worked on the title if the game bombed? It sucks to know that she'll benefit off of it but what's the alternative?

I hope this doesn't come off as an offensive post. It's hard to type out exactly what I want to say and how I want it to be received.
You understand very little within the context of this and your post is emblematic of the issue. You have an entire thread of discussion in question - with these exact points raised numerous times - to help you understand but instead you're content simply claiming to and marching on in ignorance expecting others to educate you.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
JK Rowling has final content approval of any and all media created using her intellectual property, and could likely sue the developers for putting a "TAKE THAT" message targeted at her into the game. And at the end of the day, even if they did that, all they're doing is trying to ask people to give JK Rowling money anyways for the sake of a message.

Like I get the idea you're putting forth here, but a Harry Potter game that pokes fun at JK Rowling would likely A) get the developers sued and B) would still benefit JK in the end.
I don't know why people keep suggesting this. I guess they want to justify buying the game. At the end of the day, you're still giving money to a bigot.
 

MatrixMan.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,498
I'm sure you've heard the " we don't behave racism in Europe/random south american country" response.

All the time, and as a black European I can say that it's unequivocally false. Even taking football as an example, the racism that black players face regularly, especially from fans from the continent during matches is horrific. I'm not even sure it's a thing black American athletes face on the same scale, although correct me if I'm wrong.

That's not even going into the actual systemic racism in this part of the world.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,496
I don't know why people keep suggesting this. I guess they want to justify buying the game. At the end of the day, you're still giving money to a bigot.

It's an attempt to make oneself feel better about the money they plan to spend, basically. Like I understand the idea of "reclaiming" Harry Potter from JK, but you just...can't. Not while she's alive and completely owns the intellectual property the way she does.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,120
if you're saying "they should put trans positive stuff in the game to own Rowling" you aren't concerned about the feelings and safety of trans people, you're saying that to disavow any responsibility you have in potentially giving her money.

This is all ignoring that this fantasy would literally never play out as long as Rowling has creative control.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,355
This is more of a side comment, but with a lot of the sub communities here having discords, bans are a bit less effective. Those banned individuals will still be a part of communities and will have a door to any new communities that spring up. It's weird seeing people banned for some bad stuff still active in those communities. I don't know if there's a good way to solve that problem.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
Eventually the "no ethical consumption under capitalism" crew will show up to drop their worldly wisdom. Because as we all know, if you can't solve all problems, the pragmatic thing to do is to not even try.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
And yet there are so many more examples that I have linked. Even if it we're just that one poll I wouldn't have made both threads in the first place.

I'm not saying you can't find some evidence of members engaging in or skirting around transphobia because there certainly are, but this specific example doesn't really hold up, particularly as it relates to a large and nebulous group and it's been posted in at least 3 threads. I'd worry less about addressing it on an amorphous group level though, there are people who are dismissive but there are also those that are making their own capitalist trade-offs.

In terms of what is to be done it's all about the structure of the community. Particularly, message boards like this are top-down communities, we don't community moderate like Reddit, it's not like we can downvote stupid comments. It's entirely up to the mods to decide what is visible and what isn't. Unfortunately, the tools are also limited. Banning is often not a very good means of communication. Maybe ok for clearly malicious postings but not good for learning opportunity when it comes to ignorance (note that with the internet full of trolling and misinformation it's often easier to assume malicious intent). What I often see is people who perhaps want to participate walk into a touchy subject and catch a ban for their ignorance. It's understandable that those in the know feel it's tiresome, but it's also how you learn too (and how this entire medium is setup).

The screenshotted poll was.accompanied by this post

There could be no misunderstanding about the nature of that poll because if people didn't read that then they did not honestly engage or care enough to think before voting so please don't make excuses for them

Well yeah. The vast majority of people don't thoroughly read most OPs. This isn't an excuse, this is a problem with how response rates work that you need to take into account. I've seen several posts about "why didn't people respond to my well written topic about X, they must not care," maybe, but it also matters what title you use and when you post it. This is a learned behavior from the way internet communication works, not necessarily a slight about the issue.
 

texhnolyze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,153
Indonesia
You probably want to add ATLUS to the list, OP. Here's a great write up:

www.resetera.com

The Phobic Crimes of Katsura Hashino (Director/Producer, ATLUS)

WHAT IS THIS? It was suggested by several members in the ongoing thread about the Catherine: Full Body scandal (see below) that a "megathread" be created about the man responsible, Katsura Hashino. The purpose of said thread would be to educate Era users about his views, works, and the...
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,487
I'm not saying you can't find some evidence of members engaging in or skirting around transphobia because there certainly are, but this specific example doesn't really hold up, particularly as it relates to a large and nebulous group and it's been posted in at least 3 threads. I'd worry less about addressing it on an amorphous group level though, there are people who are dismissive but there are also those that are making their own capitalist trade-offs.

In terms of what is to be done it's all about the structure of the community. Particularly, message boards like this are top-down communities, we don't community moderate like Reddit, it's not like we can downvote stupid comments. It's entirely up to the mods to decide what is visible and what isn't. Unfortunately, the tools are also limited. Banning is often not a very good means of communication. Maybe ok for clearly malicious postings but not good for learning opportunity when it comes to ignorance (note that with the internet full of trolling and misinformation it's often easier to assume malicious intent). What I often see is people who perhaps want to participate walk into a touchy subject and catch a ban for their ignorance. It's understandable that those in the know feel it's tiresome, but it's also how you learn too (and how this entire medium is setup).

Just because you catch a ban that doesn't mean you can't read the topic and educate yourself after the fact. And furthermore, the internet is vast with lots of resources. If you want to learn, no one would object to someone saying they don't understand the issue, do you have good resources I can use to educate myself. Even in topics I do understand, someone will post a really good resource and I'll read it just to learn more.

I dislike this idea that ignorance should shield you from a ban. You should not participate in a touchy subject if you are not equipped with the tools to handle it without offending people by saying openly dumb shit. I don't post in threads I don't understand. Doesn't mean I do not read them. I do not give people's ignorance an excuse in these discussions because bad faith is the rule. It's not the exception.

I go back to this point scenario over and over but for example, going into a thread asking for more black representation and wondering why people care about the race of the character they play as is not acceptable. It doesn't matter if that opinion is born from ignorance or naivety. No one needs to entertain that.
 

ArkkAngel007

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
4,989
This is more of a side comment, but with a lot of the sub communities here having discords, bans are a bit less effective. Those banned individuals will still be a part of communities and will have a door to any new communities that spring up. It's weird seeing people banned for some bad stuff still active in those communities. I don't know if there's a good way to solve that problem.
Then it's up to those communities themselves to deal with those individuals in turn. Bring it up to the channel admins there if that individual is harmful to where they should be removed there as well. Can't speak to much of that as I think I'm only semi-active on the Resident Evil group, and Jaw is active enough there to keep things tight.

On the subject, it has been disheartening to see large communities of Era abandoning for Discord because they feel that they aren't safe here. I think some cases were extreme with some projection and miscommunication issues (Biden/Reade spat between PoliticalEra and certain members), but more often it's just how this forum treats many of these marginalized groups and subjects that affect and/or pertain to them. Hopefully they're happier having that separation there, but I'd still like to have them feel safe and welcome here sooner rather than later.

Just because you catch a ban that doesn't mean you can't read the topic and educate yourself after the fact. And furthermore, the internet is vast with lots of resources. If you want to learn, no one would object to someone saying they don't understand the issue, do you have good resources I can use to educate myself. Even in topics I do understand, someone will post a really good resource and I'll read it just to learn more.

I dislike this idea that ignorance should shield you from a ban. You should not participate in a touchy subject if you are not equipped with the tools to handle it without offending people by saying openly dumb shit. I don't post in threads I don't understand. Doesn't mean I do not read them. I do not give people's ignorance an excuse in these discussions because bad faith is the rule. It's not the exception.

I go back to this point scenario over and over but for example, going into a thread asking for more black representation and wondering why people care about the race of the character they play as is not acceptable. It doesn't matter if that opinion is born from ignorance or naivety. No one needs to entertain that.

To put simply as I told my mother during a conversation she spouted some racist stuff from ignorance, at was upset from being called out: "Your ignorance of a law doesn't protect you from being arrested for breaking said law". If you're going to drive, learn about speed limits. If you're going to hunt, read up on laws on where and how to do so. If you're going to comment in a highly charged thread about blackface, digital or otherwise, maybe give it at least the cursory skim of what it is and why it's an issue before the bumbling posting urge hits.

I hope this is the right place to plug this link. It explains how to be an ally to trans people. Could be good for lurkers:

Tips for allies of transgender people
Thank you. I think a lot of people who even go out of their ways to be allies lack knowledge from just not having anyone from the trans community being in their immediate circles, so things like this are really helpful.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
User Banned (3 Months): Concern Trolling Over Multiple Posts in a Sensitive Thread; Prior Severe Ban
Just because you catch a ban that doesn't mean you can't read the topic and educate yourself after the fact. And furthermore, the internet is vast with lots of resources. If you want to learn, no one would object to someone saying they don't understand the issue, do you have good resources I can use to educate myself. Even in topics I do understand, someone will post a really good resource and I'll read it just to learn more.

I dislike this idea that ignorance should shield you from a ban. You should not participate in a touchy subject if you are not equipped with the tools to handle it without offending people by saying openly dumb shit. I don't post in threads I don't understand. Doesn't mean I do not read them. I do not give people's ignorance an excuse in these discussions because bad faith is the rule. It's not the exception.

I go back to this point scenario over and over but for example, going into a thread asking for more black representation and wondering why people care about the race of the character they play as is not acceptable. It doesn't matter if that opinion is born from ignorance or naivety. No one needs to entertain that.

This isn't the case though, in fact we literally know the misinformation is one of the single largest problems with the internet. Plenty of resources seem fine and others will come along and point out the problems. It's hard to find not just a good resource but one that works for you (I for example am not a book person, and barely a Youtube person). In fact, when there are lots resources the biggest problem is choice paralysis, you literally get overwhelmed and don't know where to start. Asking for help is not always an option in some cases, especially when deliberate ignorance is a common way to troll others. People get sick of it, they become suspicious, positive intent is not assumed anymore. And particularly for minorities they wind up becoming the go-to and it can feel like a burden to be that person.

Bad faith being the rule is the whole problem. Nobody wants to deal with ignorance, nobody can tell if it's even legitimate. But learning is not passive. You cannot read a book and understand what bigotry and other things are and what they might mean. You need to be able to present ideas and be challenged on them, for better or worse that's exactly how message board communication works. It's not a one-way blog for people to throw their thoughts into the world, it's an anonymous debate. It's not always intuitive to think of it in those terms, but that's what we're working with.

Acceptability isn't results, it's just saying you hate dealing with it. It would be nice if certain things didn't need saying, but they do. There's a lot of hand-holding that needs to happen whether anyone likes it or not. Now, it's not anyone's responsibility and it's entirely fair to be fed up with it and wish they'd all go away, but it's the sort of social hygiene that needs to be done and to be honest, for the important things I wouldn't trust a surrogate to get it right either.
 

Fishious

Member
Oct 27, 2017
234
Good thread. I've been continually stunned by the outright indifference as well as the not so veiled hostility shown by many of the posters in our community, especially in those threads linked in the OP. Gaming side has been especially bad. I'm not a minority, I haven't even posted in any of those threads, and I'm already exhausted by how callous people can be. It must be outright unbearable for anyone personally affected. And I know this isn't anything new, it's a continual stream that continually wears away at people. Being a cis white dude I can tune out when it gets to be too much, but I realize that's privilege. For many people it's not something they can turn off because it's personal and it's everywhere.

That's part of why the "video games are too political" argument is so farcical. Everyone just wants to be able to kick back and enjoy their hobby. But for many people that isn't possible. Brushing aside the concerns of our community's minority posters is basically saying your own comfort is more important than acknowledging their issues. And while such behavior seems like and to a degree is a small thing, it feeds into and normalizes a larger culture that ignores, abuses, and kills minorities.

It's important to remember that bigotry isn't just a gun-toting redneck yelling slurs out the window of his pickup, draped in the confederate flag. The casual indifference to the suffering of others is bigotry. It's just as if not more dangerous than the loud kind because it silently pervades society and tricks us into thinking that this kind of hate and the indifference to the suffering of others is normal.