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Sovereign Vs. Harbinger
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
OP
OP
Poll results remain glitched, mods not responding.... feels like a conspiracy tbh.
Harbinger has quite a lot of lines: https://masseffect.fandom.com/wiki/Harbinger_(Collector)/Battle_Quotes
Basically, the problem is ME3.
Harbinger was pretty good in 2... and then basically non-factor in 3.
Same as: EDI was cool in 2... and kind of ruined in 3. Illusive man was pretty interesting in 2... and laughable in 3. Some of the crew of 2 were also completely sidelined in character-ruining ways in 3. So yeah.
Harbinger was pretty good in 2... and then basically non-factor in 3.
Same as: EDI was cool in 2... and kind of ruined in 3. Illusive man was pretty interesting in 2... and laughable in 3. Some of the crew of 2 were also completely sidelined in character-ruining ways in 3. So yeah.
I would have said Harbinger but one of my problems with Me3 other than the ending of course is the fact that the Reapers arguably weren't the main villains anymore. It was Cerberus.
Soverign's reveal is legendary but Harbinger would've been it if they did ANYTHING with it in Mass Effect 3.
Yes but nobody remembers or cares about them except the meme line.
Harbinger is remembered for...being mysterious and then showing you a space terminator, and then disappearing as the reapers turn into non-entities in ME3. There's a big reason nobody cares about this idiot.
I voted Harbinger because he not only hated sentient life forms, he also had a vendetta against Shepard, which was funny.
#StopTheSteal
/s.
#StopTheSteal
/s.
Listening to Sovereign's speech again, I'm surprised by some of the cheesy cliches.
"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."
Ugh. This is the most generic-ass attempt at cosmic horror.
But it still has some really good lines, with this chilling one still standing out.
"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
It's so cold, ruthless, and detached. This is someone who sees us as nothing more than farm animals to be bred and butchered.
"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."
Ugh. This is the most generic-ass attempt at cosmic horror.
But it still has some really good lines, with this chilling one still standing out.
"You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
It's so cold, ruthless, and detached. This is someone who sees us as nothing more than farm animals to be bred and butchered.
OP
OP
Plenty of us do remember and care about those lines though, those of us with the correct amounts of good taste!
Yeah, it has some really bad lines mixed with some really good ones.
I feel what made it stick around with people is the way that Sovereign tells you that the bright vibrant galaxy you've explored is nothing more than a factory farm for him. Even the silly "Beyond comprehension" lines (Which I agree are really cliche) contribute to that feeling that Sovereign thinks you're basically just cattle. You made all these choices, but Sovereign doesn't care and just informs you they lead to the slaughterhouse.
THEY ONLY DAMAGE THE VESSEL, THEY CANNOT HURT US
THEY ARE IGNORANT, WE ARE KNOWING
One has one of the best scenes in the franchise and the other could not bother to kill a defenseless Shepard in an open field with no cover.
Sovereign wins, even with his narrative faults the Illusive man is a more compelling villain than Harbinger lol.
Sovereign wins, even with his narrative faults the Illusive man is a more compelling villain than Harbinger lol.
Subjective stuff is subjective though lol
Harbinger is actually a fitting name, it was one of the first warnings that the series had lost its core narrative identity.
Came back in the MP thought that felt great.
Assuming direct control
What are the "really" bad lines? I'm genuinely curious. I've played through it a dozen times and nothing in it stood out that way to me.
Sovereign and Harbinger are similarly trashy cheese, the former's "speech" is just talking about how cool he/they are and how you totally don't get them man.
all of them lol
Sovereign made the Reapers seem like terrifying nigh unstoppable machine gods.
Harbinger made the Reapers seem like elementary school bullies.
Harbinger made the Reapers seem like elementary school bullies.
This, both of them, and the Reapers overall are a joke. It works in a hammy/cheese ball context but the idea of either being intimidating or interesting is a little ridiculous.
It sounds like you're just not into the idea itself of all powerful beings lol. Which is fair, tastes and all. I'm wondering what Toxi meant about the script itself in that convo.
The promise of Sovereign was terrifying and interesting, the Reapers got less and less scary every game.
I wonder in my life time if Mass Effect will be rebooted and retooled to be more true cosmic horror and less "big AI ship go brrrrr"
I wonder in my life time if Mass Effect will be rebooted and retooled to be more true cosmic horror and less "big AI ship go brrrrr"
I am, I just think the Reapers are fucking terrible; the only interesting one was the derelict Reaper because it didn't speak and was an Event Horizon type mission.
"There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you can't even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension."
"You cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."
These are really bad lines that fall back on the idea of making something say it's incomprehensible rather than actually being difficult to comprehend.
Sovereign, Harbinger, Corypheus, the Archon all go to the same school of bad villain.
Sovereign is terrifying, Harbinger has some of the worst trash talk I've ever heard. Easy choice.
I see. I suppose to me those kind of felt like Sovereign sees himself and his Reaper kin so far above everyone else there's no point in explaining. I'm actually kind of fond of the idea of an all powerful machine god being so high up on itself that it exudes some arrogance and talks to down to a piece of meat like Shepard.
Sort of gave it some character, at least for me.
Thats the concept, the execution is they lecture you in plain English about how awesome they are. He explains how you don't get him. It's not like they're Galactus where you just hear them say "we hunger", instead we hear in plain language about how they think they're too cool.
Edit: I just watched the scene. Sovereign says they're beyond understanding then proceeds to lore dump.
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I get that, but the problem is that the lines themselves are kinda cliche. "Feeble creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance" is a better one because it's weirdly phrased and emphasizes the enormity of Sovereign with "you touch my mind". Still cocky, but much more detached.
Another problem is that Sovereign doesn't feel in control of the conversation. He says it's pointless to ask, then explains what he is when Shepherd asks. This doesn't gel with Sovereign lecturing the player about how they have no freedom from the cycle, that the Reapers control everything. And why is Sovereign even telling Shepherd all this?
Since I complained, let me give an example of a similar scene that I think does the baddie better.
Gravemind's answer to his nature isn't incorrect per say, it's just flowery and beyond the knowledge that the characters have: "I... I am a monument to all your sins."
Gravemind establishes control of the conversation and keeps it for the entire time: "There is much talk, and I have listened. Through rock and metal and time. Now I shall talk, and you shall listen."
Then you have the weird Iambic Heptameter rhyming scheme, emphasizing the way Gravemind playfully manipulates the characters as chess pieces: "This one is machine and nerve, and has its mind concluded. This one is but flesh and faith, and is the more deluded."
This isn't saying that Sovereign would be better if he spoke in rhyme, or that Halo 2's story is better than Mass Effect's. But there are better ways to have the villain establish how strange and vast they are than just flat-out saying the protagonist wouldn't understand. For example: "We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness." This is a great line that piques the imagination with how much of it is metaphor and how much is literal. This is the kind of line that makes Sovereign's scene still very memorable, even with the complaints I have. I voted for Sovereign in the thread poll for tidbits like that.
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I mean, this is an universe with a monogendered alien species that is completely composed of often sultry bombshell female humanoids, some of them being sexy vampires. It's pulpy af Space Opera. In that context the Reapers kinda work. It'd actually be really weird if they were actually well developed incomprehensible beings that sparked true terror in an universe full of ham everywhere. They're just right.
Go read Revelation Space if you want to see this concept explored in a harder sci-fi context.
Go read Revelation Space if you want to see this concept explored in a harder sci-fi context.
Sovereign: My idiotic motivations are u n k n o w a b l e. You think to challenge me? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Squid Squad, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on your galaxy, and I have over 300 billion confirmed kills. I am trained in pew pew laser warfare and I'm the top Reaper in the entire Calamari Command.
Harbinger: im gonna shit in ur cheerios u little bitch
Harbinger: im gonna shit in ur cheerios u little bitch
The weirdest little thing that made Harbinger fall off for me were his lines belittling your alien squadmates as inferior to humans for reasons that felt extremely trivial or nonsensical. It reinforced the bad "humans are special" theme that got pushed to the forefront in 2, and made Harbinger and the Reapers seem like they weren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer.
Where Sovereign was the best, I loved all these Harbinger moments in battle.
I don't feel strongly about any of them. Honestly i don't think any are particularly strong. They are significantly overshadowed by more relevant characters and antagonists in their own games.
But Sovereign at least represents some unknown grandiosity that is somehow living right next to us and we know zero percent about it. By the time Harbinger shows up, we already know what the deal is. But both are hampered by considerable "i am so superior to you, you don't even know how superior i am, that's how much more superior i am, it's not even measurable" rhetoric which is not scary or imposing at all, just condescending, and condescension is usually a sign of incompetence.
But Sovereign at least represents some unknown grandiosity that is somehow living right next to us and we know zero percent about it. By the time Harbinger shows up, we already know what the deal is. But both are hampered by considerable "i am so superior to you, you don't even know how superior i am, that's how much more superior i am, it's not even measurable" rhetoric which is not scary or imposing at all, just condescending, and condescension is usually a sign of incompetence.
Fair enough, and good points made. It's funny that you brought up Gravemind, because even though I thoroughly enjoyed the storytelling in Halo 2, those particular lines, that convo, is a bit where I zoned out specifically because of how detached and vague he was. The delivery was great, but it also slightly turned me off because I didn't know what the heck he was talking about.
Maybe I don't catch on as fast as others, or perhaps a more delicate balance is needed. I don't know lol.
I went sovereign. I think it's just because I felt it was a more shadowy, looming threat based on the interactions with Saren and Benezia about it. The surprise that sovereign itself was a reaper was after that identity was established. To me, harbinger just became synonymous with "the reapers" rather than having a ton of individual identity. I thought harbinger wanted you to feel your task was more futile, but as a side effect came off as less individually menacing.
I personally don't really like any of the reapers. They're a cool idea, but too big and don't have enough personality to be an enjoyable villain. As a broad existential threat they're great, but after a while they lose their impact. Since Sovereign was the first, and he didn't stick around too long, I guess he was the best. He certainly felt more engaging.
I wouldn't say you don't catch on as fast, it's just down to taste. I love the Gravemind scene because it makes me wonder what is going on; he's a big question mark in the story of Halo 2 that's still not completely solved by the end of the game. But your issues aren't unfounded; many consider the Gravemind scene pointless weird for the sake of weird. "Why are we suddenly talking to a giant rhyming plant?" And... It's because Bungie ran out of time and had to replace an entire level with a single cutscene to explain how the characters get where they are. I think it turned out well, but I can't deny it's the result of slapped-together game design.
Meanwhile Sovereign's scene clearly worked for all the faults I find with it. There's a reason he's beating Harbinger in this poll. Mass Effect is a series that emphasizes the choices and characters and action, and then at the moment when you break into the bad guy's lair, you instead find this cold, arrogant, inhuman god-like being who tells you none of that matters.
One other thing I should mention: I love that Sovereign's design is simultaneously a giant hand and a cuttlefish. It's a nice bit of foreshadowing: He's both a manipulator and a chameleon.
ME3 is just baffling all around. Bioware/EA cut off important story elements to sell as DLC (Leviathan and From the Ashes), they gave no primary voice to the Reapers which made them feel almost like a secondary background threat compared to Cerberus, and the Reaper power level was all over the place for story convenience. And the less said about the ending and the core function of the Reapers the better....
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I think it's really about how Sovereign says the Reapers are beyond Shepard's comprehension... and then Shepard proceeds to be one of the only ones who do understand what the Reapers are doing. And that happens because Sovereign tells them what they're doing. If Shepard can't comprehend, why bother explaining?
meh, don't agree. I love Mass Effect, but its pulpy space-opera first, including some not-too-bright lines every now and then :P