The simpsons did it half a year earlier.How about overwhelmingly being for gay acceptance in 1997 when no other show would make an episode like this?
The simpsons did it half a year earlier.How about overwhelmingly being for gay acceptance in 1997 when no other show would make an episode like this?
Is it a joke? Naw, it's called nuance. Trust me, I know it's lost on some. It means you can write a character that's the representative character for a demographic and not have them be 100% in line with the majority of what that demographic may think, or in line with what the politically aware expects or wants them to think. Matt and Trey's message in that episode is illustrated by the events of the episode: gay character leading a boy scout troop, the town being uneasy with it, all while the "straight" scout leader is the real insidious piece of shit dealing with their kids. What Al thinks is totally his own opinion, no matter what we disagree with or what the episode very easily illustrated right before that moment. The message of the episode, despite Al deciding to go his own way, was pretty clear to be honest.Is this a joke?
Al isn't fucking real. He's a fictional character. And in the episode, he was blatantly the mouth piece of two straight libertarian dudes. Part of the message of the episode was literally "it doesn't matter if the scouts are wrong about gay people, we should respect the rights of private institutions to do what they want, and it's our prerogative to defeat them in the market place of ideas and convince them, because libertarianism ftw."
I actually can't think of a better example of everything wrong about South Park when, even after an episode of trying to debunk and deconstruct homophobia, they end it by having their token gay character outright say his rights as a human aren't as important as a private institution's rights to be bigoted.
Lol that's a pretty meta South Park joke, nice. But yeah that Simpsons episode is pretty good for its time.
Everyone here is aware that this character is basically what transphobes pretend they're against when they're challenged directly right? There's a classic refrain of "I'm not actually against trans people I just have ***legitimate concerns*** about evil men pretending to be women in order to (beat them at sports/sexually abuse women/sexually abuse children) so therefore we need to remove rights from trans people because it's our only choice."
There's nothing subversive or smart or nuanced about it, it's just shit. and it's legitimizing transphobe talking points.
This thread is alarmingly true, in that people will continually overlook injustices and bigotry of all sorts, as long as they are kept entertained most of the time.Some people on this forum... I can't believe what I am reading. South Park has so many utterly amazing episodes, there have been so many highs that any low seasons/episodes are quickly forgiven. It is the best freaking show to keep up with the state of America and what the future will be like in a few months. They are almost always spot on.
This is America.This thread is alarmingly true, in that people will continually overlook injustices and bigotry of all sorts, as long as they are kept entertained most of the time.
"Our mayor was trafficking drugs throughout our city for decades, but did you see that video of him falling down at the mcdonald's unveiling? Classic. I'll probably vote for him again."
Hell Chevy Chase still gets work.
That episode was about gay marriage getting legalized in SF which was way long ago, it was a good episode but yeah, that whole twist is kinda gah in hindsight.Lol that's a pretty meta South Park joke, nice. But yeah that Simpsons episode is pretty good for its time.
Is it a joke? Naw, it's called nuance. Trust me, I know it's lost on some. It means you can write a character that's the representative character for a demographic and not have them be 100% in line with the majority of what that demographic may think
Just for reference, what are you referring to, the boy scout episode, or the one that just aired?That episode was about gay marriage getting legalized in SF which was way long ago, it was a good episode but yeah, that whole twist is kinda gah in hindsight.
Meanwhile THIS SHIT is hack. Yes I know South Park is funny at times but fucks sake, this is just low hanging fruit. Not shocked they keep being this hack.
Perhaps you're right that Al takes a more libertarian stance when all is said and done, but you are completely discounting everything that happens before it, which is 90% of the episode.Except, he's clearly being a mouth piece for Matt and Trey's libertarianism? That's the complete opposite of nuance.
I've heard some bullshit takes, but "Welll actually, the two straight libertarian dudes writing their token gay character to espouse their own opinion that the rights of queer people are subservient to the rights of private orginizations is amazing nuanced writing" takes the fucking cake.
This one.Just for reference, what are you referring to, the boy scout episode, or the one that just aired?
Gotcha. Totally agree. If they were trying to make any kind of salient point they failed miserably.
If you meant the episode that brought up the Simpsons, I was talking about the Simpsons but I do remember SP having a gay marriage episode too but I dunno if that one was the mid 2000s or the big one in 2013.Gotcha. Totally agree. If they were trying to make any kind of salient point they failed miserably.
The Big Gay Al episode is literally equivalent to someone saying "I support the gays" then turning around and saying "I think that baker should be allowed discriminate against gay people".Just for reference, what are you referring to, the boy scout episode, or the one that just aired?
Perhaps you're right that Al takes a more libertarian stance when all is said and done, but you are completely discounting everything that happens before it, which is 90% of the episode.
South Park has never really seemed off on gay rights/issues/acceptance. In commentaries the two have talked about how they grew up with a lot of gay kids and they've never seen it as anything but normalcy.If you meant the episode that brought up the Simpsons, I was talking about the Simpsons but I do remember SP having a gay marriage episode too but I dunno if that one was the mid 2000s or the big one in 2013.
Maybe you're right, but remember that Matt and Trey are completely fine with gay people. If the boy scouts want to do their quasi religious bullshit then we're all better for not joining them, and the message is more that you'll be consigned to history if you're not willing to update your views to accept widening demographics. They probably could have said it better, but the very fact that they painted the boy scouts as illogically homophobic throughout the whole episode sets an updated standard.The Big Gay Al episode is literally equivalent to someone saying "I support the gays" then turning around and saying "I think that baker should be allowed discriminate against gay people".
Perhaps you're right that Al takes a more libertarian stance when all is said and done, but you are completely discounting everything that happens before it, which is 90% of the episode.
I actually can't think of a better example of everything wrong about South Park when, even after an episode of trying to debunk and deconstruct homophobia, they end it by having their token gay character outright say his rights as a human aren't as important as a private institution's rights to be bigoted.
You can't discount the 90% of the episode that fights homophobia, that's true, but you can't ignore the ending that defends and encourages the social structures that allow homophobia to flourish. They aren't two separate messages. The episode was, in essence, saying "I think it's wrong for a baker to refuse to serve queer people,, but anyone who tries to make laws protecting the rights of queer people to be served is just as wrong." It's a garbage message in its totality despite the initially positive beginning.
That's why, my point is, and always has been, that South Park's politics are garbage. They've done some good stuff, and have done good episodes, but that doesn't change who they are, nor that we should be surprised or try rationalizing when they have garbage takes.
Maybe you're right, but remember that Matt and Trey are completely fine with gay people. If the boy scouts want to do their quasi religious bullshit then we're all better for not joining them, and the message is more that you'll be consigned to history if you're not willing to update your views to accept widening demographics. They probably could have said it better, but the very fact that they painted the boy scouts as illogically homophobic throughout the whole episode sets an updated standard.
So if that baker is going to discriminate, more and more people of diverse and accepting philosophies won't go to that bakery. In that sense libertarianism does shut out socially and morally regressive businesses.
I don't have the time to explain it, but this show is why Trump is president.
And, as sure as the sunrise, here comes this bullshit, suspect train of argument for the billionth time. I swear, every dog on this forum should be stone deaf by now after how many times this whistle has been blown. 👎I think the message basically was "Different biological sexes are naturally better at different things, whether it's girls being better at boardgames, or males having a biological predisposition to excel at certain sports. All of these biological predispositions don't just disappear when a person changes their gender.
You tagged the wrong quote to me. Also I disagree. You're asking marginalized people to not participate in society the same as anyone else.As a fan of the show, I have no problem saying when they've fucked up and I never try to rationalize their bad takes. At least we can agree they've done some good stuff, as you just said.
Even so, Al's opinion in that episode in no way discounts the stuff before it. If I was gay, I would not go back to the scouts after all that if the leadership and many of the parents sending their kids there held those views, even if public opinion was forcing them to change. I just have a different take away for why Al came to the conclusion he did. I don't quite get the same libertarian message that you are getting from it. We may just have to agree to disagree there, because my main take away from that episode was that gay people would make fine leaders and being straight is clearly not the qualification needed.
I'm 100% not doing that.You tagged the wrong quote to me. Also I disagree. You're asking marginalized people to not participate in society the same as anyone else.
That's exactly like saying Jim Crow laws are okay because non-racists and blacks can go to non-racist busineses.
And, as sure as the sunrise, here comes this bullshit, suspect train of argument for the billionth time. I swear, every dog on this forum should be stone deaf by now after how many times this whistle has been blown. 👎
Thats from the episode where Kyle has plastic surgery to become a black basketball player and his dad becomes a dolphin. Can't remember the name of the episode. I always close my eyes during that scene. Can't take surgery footage.I'm reminded of that male to female surgery footage bit they included in the Garrison? episode? I'm not sure the whole "everyone gets made fun of!" sentiment is actually valid when it comes to this subject. Not sure they've ever gone to those lengths for any other topic.
Well I must say, they certainly make for a dispassionate and eloquent spokesperson for their transphobic views. They should consider applying for a position as Parker & Stone's official mouthpiece.I think the person you were quoting was explaining what they thought South Park was going for, not they believed or agreed with it.
South Park will often make a statement by creating an outrageous scenario, in a way that highlights the stupidity of anyone who could believe such a scenario were plausible. I think that is the intent of this episode, and I think it is lost on people who are not familiar with the show.
I agree. Wheter we like or not, they are biological difference between the sexes. Look at NBA and WNBA basketball.I think the message basically was "Different biological sexes are naturally better at different things, whether it's girls being better at boardgames, or males having a biological predisposition to excel at certain sports. All of these biological predispositions don't just disappear when a person changes their gender. For the longest time, our "PC baby" culture struggled with this, but this is indeed something that should be considered when we're all able to have a mature discussion about the matter."
My bad. Not you. The show then. I don't think this was a nuanced take at all from the show. It's asking gays to accept less freedoms. To be seen as less than. That's not fair. It also comes off as disengenuous when it's a gay character as written by two straight white dudes saying this.I'm 100% not doing that.
I'm saying that one character came to that conclusion is alright for them, not everyone. We all have the right to take up the good fight as much as we can handle, and Al is perhaps too old fashioned to do so.
Quick, someone mention the Clintons. Gears will switch in their heads.Damn, they're coming out of the woodwork in this thread.
Transphobia always seems to do work as a honeypot around here.
Can you explain it though, please? I want to add that I thought this was a bad, offensive episode but I am curious about your take all the same.I don't have the time to explain it, but this show is why Trump is president.
Sounds like Bill Maher and many other liberals. They'll be supportive of minorities and others until it starts inconveniencing them.Quick, someone mention the Clintons. Gears will switch in their heads.
They're more interested in defending South Park, so they'll defend transphobia on the show's behalf. But they hate Clinton, so they'll suddenly start caring about transphobia. Trans issues are secondary to these dudes. It's really kind of crazy how easy it is to notice this when you start paying attention to it.
The issue's more dense than that. They'll be supportive of minoritis if it lets them hate somoene they were already predisposed to hate. The support of minorities is always, always secondary in their minds. It's a heirachy, a tier of priorities. In this tier, minorities are below South Park, but above [many examples].Sounds like Bill Maher and many other liberals. They'll be supportive of minorities and others until it starts inconveniencing them.
I remember.Remember when gaming side said the mammy fish from the game wasn't racist
I agree. Also Cody actually goes into this in the most recent episode of Some More News which made me immediately think of Maher WRT this thread (and many others) and how people can dismiss legit concerns as "outrage culture" or "political correctness" gone awry. If you haven't seen it already I'd recommend it.The issue's more dense than that. They'll be supportive of minoritis if it lets them hate somoene they were already predisposed to hate. The support of minorities is always, always secondary in their minds. It's a heirachy, a tier of priorities. In this tier, minorities are below South Park, but above [many examples].
So when South Parks makes fun of trump it's cool, but when Trans people are the