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Souls Veterans: What are your initial thoughts after playing Sekiro?
- Thread starter GameShrink
- Start date
There is a lot of weird shit in the game, it's not just samurai dudes.
I'm near the end and I am convinced you either get this game or you don't. For me I haven't been very challenged except for the occasional boss fight, and I'm not saying this as a brag. This games flow is very different from souls, if anything I'm reminded more of batman's stealth system mixed with revengance/souls combat.
When you get later game upgrades most of the combat becomes nullified. Fire cracker is overpowered because it's a free hit. Because you can also block which works as a shield you actually have more protection than bb I think.
It's just a very different flow, and ramming my head through the second and third bosses trained me pretty well for the rest of the game
Actually a good frame of reference is earlier areas after you mastered them. I can just dominate any area I've over come because I know exactly how to stealth it. You see alot of the same enemies throughout so you nail those patterns down. Mini bosses and bosses are exceptions but you have to learn them to beat them. I have a feeling the replay of this is gonna fly compared to replaying other from software games.
When you get later game upgrades most of the combat becomes nullified. Fire cracker is overpowered because it's a free hit. Because you can also block which works as a shield you actually have more protection than bb I think.
It's just a very different flow, and ramming my head through the second and third bosses trained me pretty well for the rest of the game
Actually a good frame of reference is earlier areas after you mastered them. I can just dominate any area I've over come because I know exactly how to stealth it. You see alot of the same enemies throughout so you nail those patterns down. Mini bosses and bosses are exceptions but you have to learn them to beat them. I have a feeling the replay of this is gonna fly compared to replaying other from software games.
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I think the greatest achievement of sekiro is how your skills are honed to the point where you can beat a boss on the first or second attempt engaging directly with the boss' attacks. In souls games most bosses degenerated into hug, rotate and butt-poke.
The hardest part for me at first was making my fingers do what my brain was thinking. The low margin of error and difficult tells of some swipe/thrust perils really asks a lot of your hand-eye coordination. But once it clicked, oh man it feels so good.
The only improvement I'd see to the combat is perhaps adding some animation canceling to the mix. Though I can appreciate that it attempts to curb button mashing by forcing you to be deliberate and delaying your decisions till the last moment.
The hardest part for me at first was making my fingers do what my brain was thinking. The low margin of error and difficult tells of some swipe/thrust perils really asks a lot of your hand-eye coordination. But once it clicked, oh man it feels so good.
The only improvement I'd see to the combat is perhaps adding some animation canceling to the mix. Though I can appreciate that it attempts to curb button mashing by forcing you to be deliberate and delaying your decisions till the last moment.
Easiest huh? Lol. That's not particularly comforting given my concerns about the game. Though I'm going to treat it as a YMMV situation as it took me only 2 attempts to take down the general on the horse, but closer to 30 to finally beat Lady Butterfly last night, so she is absolutely the hardest boss I've encountered thus far. As with other Souls games, the difficulty of bosses often varies based on your playstyle and skill set, and I have to say I can already tell bosses with fast-replenishing poise are going to pose a huge challenge to me in this game.
That said, defeating Lady Butterfly felt damn good and I'm looking forward to working my way up into Ashina Castle next.
I've finished it too and I wouldn't say that. The vast majority of enemies are regular humans with different skins and movesets, from regular soldiers to generals, samurais or "ninjas". There are some animals too and there's only a handful of grotesque-monstery style enemies. Nothing comparable to previous FS games by far.
I am not through with the game yet but I hope From moves to another IP or something else after this. I will be pretty disappointed if Sekiro 2 is their next big release.
I do not hate it but I am definitely not loving it like all of the Souls/Bloodborne games.
I do not hate it but I am definitely not loving it like all of the Souls/Bloodborne games.
Playing the game more last night, and I feel it completely fails to relay basic information:
The game tells you to deflect "right when an attack is about to hit you". Um... no. You'll be way too late every time. Deflect when the attack STARTS.
The game doesn't tell you that spark colors matter, but it's extremely important. This is basically a rhythm game. An orange spark means you MUST flip from attack to deflect.
If the enemy does a sweep, you MUST jump. It's the only option. You can jump again for some posture damage which is weird but whatever.
I thought the red icon meant an unblockable attack. Nope. It means that the enemy is going to do one of several QTE events basically: Grab, Sweep, Thrust. You MUST memorize the attack animation, and then your only option is the correct counter:
> If it's a sweep, you must jump
> If it's a grab, you must dodge/run away
> If it's a thrust, well I hope you purchased the thrust counter.
This isn't like Dark Souls where you could approach each scenario any way you liked.
Honestly I'm playing this more like Guitar Hero and doing way better. There's little room for creativity: just play the notes as written.
The game tells you to deflect "right when an attack is about to hit you". Um... no. You'll be way too late every time. Deflect when the attack STARTS.
The game doesn't tell you that spark colors matter, but it's extremely important. This is basically a rhythm game. An orange spark means you MUST flip from attack to deflect.
If the enemy does a sweep, you MUST jump. It's the only option. You can jump again for some posture damage which is weird but whatever.
I thought the red icon meant an unblockable attack. Nope. It means that the enemy is going to do one of several QTE events basically: Grab, Sweep, Thrust. You MUST memorize the attack animation, and then your only option is the correct counter:
> If it's a sweep, you must jump
> If it's a grab, you must dodge/run away
> If it's a thrust, well I hope you purchased the thrust counter.
This isn't like Dark Souls where you could approach each scenario any way you liked.
Honestly I'm playing this more like Guitar Hero and doing way better. There's little room for creativity: just play the notes as written.
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it's a good singleplayer game worth a run-through but it's ultimately a step in the wrong direction for my tastes. the gameplay is tighter, sure, but at the expense of playthrough variety. builds, weapon-choice, and PvP factored heavily into what made their previous string of games so special.
too, i find its attempted reconciliation of the straightforward and obtuse rather awkward and its atmosphere doesn't hold a flickering candle to the souls series.
don't get me wrong: i'm not begging for a dark souls 4, and I am excited to see what new IP FS comes up with next, hopefully this time with a little more respect for what made their output during the last decade such a joy.
too, i find its attempted reconciliation of the straightforward and obtuse rather awkward and its atmosphere doesn't hold a flickering candle to the souls series.
don't get me wrong: i'm not begging for a dark souls 4, and I am excited to see what new IP FS comes up with next, hopefully this time with a little more respect for what made their output during the last decade such a joy.
How is it better when you can spam roll with very generous i-frames or block just about everything and call it a day? Recognizing attack types and most suitable answer based on the situation brings a lot of depth.
It's not even as strict as you make it out to be. Both sweeps and thrusts can be dodged with correct positioning, timing and dodge direction. Thrusts can also be deflected.
Deflecting when the attack starts is a surefire way to get hit. Oniwa boss has this 3 attack pattern and there is a good delay on the last strike to throw off your timing.
Sweep can be escaped by dodging backwards or running away from it. Jump is not the only option.
Red icon means you cannot block it but it can be deflected and dodged. In-game tutorial explains this.
I was feeling very frustrated by the game's very specific timing challenges. Not the normal enemies; they're piss-easy. They're easy to just beat on until they die, or efficiently parry kill, or stealth kill, or fight in groups with a little herding.
So fighting the base enemies is fine. I have complaints (mostly about poor stealth), but it's pretty engaging to repeat an area and work out the best path through. Stealth these two, rush those two, alert this group and get them to come at me through a narrow spot, etc.
It was the mini-bosses unique move sets that were making the game no fun. I realize it's not Dark Souls, where you can hide behind a shield while learning bosses' attacks, but it is still the same Souls design, where death is part of the learning cycle. Fight-learn-die, repeat until victory replaces death. You're still the character who resurrects endlessly, so this loop is the core of the game.
And that's the big problem: it's too easy to die without having learned anything. If, say, spear guy Did I Mention I'm Enshin kills me in one or two quick hits that I fail to parry, what have I learned? Nothing. I didn't learn the parry timing, nor is the move that killed me memorable enough for me to recognize it the next time. And now I have a little trek to get back, and one failed parry may be enough to kill me again.
Of course, I've made that trek in prior games, countless times, but almost always I would feel more prepared to win the fight than before. That was all part of the fun. This game's loop was not fun, just frustrating.
So I never did learn the parry timing to any of the first several mini-bosses. I just gamed the system by acting crazy, running around in circles and confusing the CPU. Then I was having fun, watching the game not know how to react, and easily winning every fight.
But that's not really the fun I was after, the satisfaction of earning skill and mastering the means to progress. It is fun to beat the video game because it's a video game, but it's something else to beat the designed game on its own terms. And now those bosses are gone, and with them the opportunity to beat them fairly and learn the skills I assume I'll still need later.
I may have to resort to watching videos of other people defeating bosses to learn how to do it myself. That's probably the norm for many people in this era, but to me it's half admitting failure, half blaming bad game design.
I don't know about this game. But I'm not far yet, so there's still time for it to click.
So fighting the base enemies is fine. I have complaints (mostly about poor stealth), but it's pretty engaging to repeat an area and work out the best path through. Stealth these two, rush those two, alert this group and get them to come at me through a narrow spot, etc.
It was the mini-bosses unique move sets that were making the game no fun. I realize it's not Dark Souls, where you can hide behind a shield while learning bosses' attacks, but it is still the same Souls design, where death is part of the learning cycle. Fight-learn-die, repeat until victory replaces death. You're still the character who resurrects endlessly, so this loop is the core of the game.
And that's the big problem: it's too easy to die without having learned anything. If, say, spear guy Did I Mention I'm Enshin kills me in one or two quick hits that I fail to parry, what have I learned? Nothing. I didn't learn the parry timing, nor is the move that killed me memorable enough for me to recognize it the next time. And now I have a little trek to get back, and one failed parry may be enough to kill me again.
Of course, I've made that trek in prior games, countless times, but almost always I would feel more prepared to win the fight than before. That was all part of the fun. This game's loop was not fun, just frustrating.
So I never did learn the parry timing to any of the first several mini-bosses. I just gamed the system by acting crazy, running around in circles and confusing the CPU. Then I was having fun, watching the game not know how to react, and easily winning every fight.
But that's not really the fun I was after, the satisfaction of earning skill and mastering the means to progress. It is fun to beat the video game because it's a video game, but it's something else to beat the designed game on its own terms. And now those bosses are gone, and with them the opportunity to beat them fairly and learn the skills I assume I'll still need later.
I may have to resort to watching videos of other people defeating bosses to learn how to do it myself. That's probably the norm for many people in this era, but to me it's half admitting failure, half blaming bad game design.
I don't know about this game. But I'm not far yet, so there's still time for it to click.
Because the movesets are so inconsistent, and there's no way to bait anything out aside from cheese strategies, this definitely feels like the case with any boss you decide to fight the intended way.
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OP
OP
This is where I'm at as well. I neither want nor expect Dark Souls 4 or Bloodborne 2 (and Miyazaki is on record saying he's not into doing sequels), I'm just hopeful their next IP is an RPG. There's no reason why Sekiro couldn't have been one, they even could have kept the voiced character (he has like... 30 lines throughout the entire game, just get a female VA to do them as well).
From has perfected character progression and difficulty in their past games, where players could get by on just about any mixture of skill and stats. I like Sekiro, but I don't like how inaccessible it is, and the lack of variety in playstyles.
I'm halfway through NG++, and I already feel like I've used every option for combat. Even if I end up doing an "Axe-only run" or a 'Flame Vent-only" run, there are plenty of fights where anything besides the sword, shuriken and firecrackers just isn't viable.
I got the platinum in BB and Demon's and have been playing From games since King's Field. Sekiro is punitive and obtuse in a way that is beyond anything From has put out before and I find it incredibly frustrating and demoralizing.
Additionally, people have other demands on their time, so a game that wants you to stick with it for double-digits of hours over weeks/months to make minimal progress is not a small ask.
Game is much closer to nioh than souls/bb. I have to say if you can beat any of those games without summoning, this is not much more difficult. Just have to rewire your brain for new combat system and be aggressive and bold. Im not very good at deflecting and it's enough that you can deflect few attacks here and there. Learning boss patterns and abusing them is just like in souls/bb/nioh.
I'm not sure how to feel about it, I don't really like the faster pace of boss battles and the pacing feels off with normal enemy areas being so easy and bosses/mini-bosses being walls that stop progress. Even when I overcome those walls, I don't feel good at the game and thus it's not very satisfying. It may just not be for me with how fast it is.
I'm basically here about halfway through the game, a little more maybe. It's just a lot of busy work between bosses where literally all that matters if parry timing. You nail your parries and you win or you whiff on one or two and get deleted instantly.
From seems so committed to never improving on their games' shortcomings. Camera system hasn't improved much in the last decade. Sometimes an enemy jumps and just disappears into the ether as your lock breaks. When there's obstructions in the environment, you still wind up stuck on things you can't really see. They went back to estus so you don't have to farm vials, but you still need sprit emblems. Fucking why? What's the fucking point? The game still chugs at certain times and has frame pacing issues despite From struggling with this in previous games. Do better.
The complete lack of anything interesting from exploration really drags the game down. The environments look great and have tons of little nooks and crannies, but they're all fucking empty or have some consumable that lasts 10 seconds.
The longer the game goes, the more it drags for me. Just more of the same without adding anything except longer combo strings for you to parry.
I never summoned in any Souls game, and I absolutely loved BB. I'm 50/50 on Sekiro now only 5 hours in. Feels like I've made little to no progression, stealth barely seems to work for me, and it took me reading a guide just to figure out how to get past a mini-boss since I apparently needed to go someplace else to get an item that could beat them. I'm also not a fan of this parrying system. It feels extremely limited in comparison to the other games. I like the setting, and the combat against non boss enemies. But stifling my progression the way this game has so far makes me think I'm not going to stick with it for very long. Someone said it's very obtuse, and I think that's the perfect word to describe it.
I think it's Miyazaki's best game. It just plays so much better than anything they've made before.
Enjoy the last area of the game... it's hell. Not difficulty wise, but the way you have to go is very obtuse and some stretches are ultra long with lots of enemies... and obviously nothing of value to find! Well, here are 5 more recycled bosses for you to enjoy, tho.
The more I play it, the lower my opinion gets. This game is just bad design all around.
- Shallow combat with no options. It's also primarily designed for 1v1 with no crowd control options, but then it pits you up against multiple enemies fairly regularly.
- Worst camera I've ever used in game. It's especially bad in tight areas, always during boss fights, and will get you killed regularly because it just decided to remove your lock on and spin the camera towards the wall behind you while the enemy is rushing in.
- Irritating, cheap enemy placement. This is especially true in places like the gun fort. How about that enemy that just falls out of the sky off camera? The enemy placement in many areas makes stealth not an option unless you want to pick one off, run away, and come back when it's calm again.
- Mini-bosses require perfection for the most part... and for a prolonged period of time... simply too much posture. I find the bosses to be easier and much more tolerable. Genichiro was actually a good boss. Largely though, the boss design in this game is god awful.
- Confusing level design and a lack of direction. Every Souls game I've played has that "you missed a small hole in the wall in this random area, good luck trying to figure out how to progress" moment. This game has more than one of those.
- Exploration yields no real positives as there's nothing to find and is only necessary when trying to find where to go.
I was never a big fan of the Souls titles; they're decent. I think Nioh puts them all to shame. I was hoping this title would be a step in the right direction, but this is easily their worst title, and I'm glad it didn't end up being an abortion of a Tenchu game.
As far as positives go, it looks better and has a good AA solution. The traversal is solid as well, though climbing certainly needs work.
- Shallow combat with no options. It's also primarily designed for 1v1 with no crowd control options, but then it pits you up against multiple enemies fairly regularly.
- Worst camera I've ever used in game. It's especially bad in tight areas, always during boss fights, and will get you killed regularly because it just decided to remove your lock on and spin the camera towards the wall behind you while the enemy is rushing in.
- Irritating, cheap enemy placement. This is especially true in places like the gun fort. How about that enemy that just falls out of the sky off camera? The enemy placement in many areas makes stealth not an option unless you want to pick one off, run away, and come back when it's calm again.
- Mini-bosses require perfection for the most part... and for a prolonged period of time... simply too much posture. I find the bosses to be easier and much more tolerable. Genichiro was actually a good boss. Largely though, the boss design in this game is god awful.
- Confusing level design and a lack of direction. Every Souls game I've played has that "you missed a small hole in the wall in this random area, good luck trying to figure out how to progress" moment. This game has more than one of those.
- Exploration yields no real positives as there's nothing to find and is only necessary when trying to find where to go.
I was never a big fan of the Souls titles; they're decent. I think Nioh puts them all to shame. I was hoping this title would be a step in the right direction, but this is easily their worst title, and I'm glad it didn't end up being an abortion of a Tenchu game.
As far as positives go, it looks better and has a good AA solution. The traversal is solid as well, though climbing certainly needs work.
You can never have too many Mibu balloons! There's nothing more rewarding to find than those! I actually really enjoy the stealth and mobility aspects of the game. They're a genuinely cool addition. It's a shame they disappear entirely when it comes to boss fights which mostly consist of you standing still and parrying until a sweep.
It's insane how much more fun it is to play than Souls.
I feel like you've completely misunderstood what the game is, or are just looking for reasons to shit over it for things that just aren't true for the most part.
Just beat it. I'll have to play through it a few more times, but it's going to rank up there with Dark Souls and Bloodborne as the trinity of GoaT.
I think From know what they are doing by now. You might just not get it at all. Maybe patience is not something you like either.
I like it better than the Souls games and Bloodbourne. It's currently sitting up their with Nier as my GOTG. It just brings a challenge that I so rarely get these days.
The second I read this part, I stopped reading your entire post. The fact that the shinobi firecracker is there for crowd control, makes me wonder. You can easily fight multiple enemies at once, if you learn how to parry and retreat.
I whole heatedly disagree but each to their own. The game is downright amazing, level design, combat, setting. it's just brilliant.
Many of these aren't true at all. No crowd control? No positives to exploration? Worst camera ever in game?
I'm near the end of the game (haven't played through the section you're referring to but I'm about to and I've seen playthroughs of that whole section and all the bosses so I know what to expect) and I feel like the game really loses steam near the final 3rd or so. All of the items you need to get after finding Kuro are behind paths that all reuse minibosses, so depending on which one you go for last you're going to see quite a bit of repeated content though that path. Then there's the main bosses, and only half or so of the actual boss fights are real fights that aren't reused multiple times. (One of which is hidden behind the "bad" ending so most people won't even get to experience it) And around that time you'll probably start realizing that the combat isn't as fantastic as you think it is. People complained that the Souls games were just R1 spam but this game really takes it to another level. The prosthetics are a cool idea but most of them only really help facilitate you spamming R1 better and don't really change how you can play the game like hunter tools or magic. And as someone else pointed out making them both have ammo rather then a bar that refills when you rest combined with the fact that they're actually kind of expensive and farming gold in this game is pretty slow if you don't know where to farm it means that I feel like people will either under-utilize prosthetics in fear of running out of ammo or will have to waste a ton of time trying to farm money so you can keep using it.
As a whole I do think the game is good, and there's less wrong with it then say Dark Souls 2 (not that that's saying much) but from what I can tell so far, I would say it's down near DS2 for my favorite games in the series, although I don't know if I would put it above or below DS2 right now.
Agreed.
I love the boss fights - 41 so far [not counting any secret bosses we've yet to find or DLC].
It's a Ninja/action fan's dream game.
I don't get the takes on not feeling like exploration is rewarding. That was my initial worry when hearing about the game, but you have to search out very hidden paths for a bunch of the prosthetic tools and some of the skills (incl at least one entire skill tree). Aside from that there are tool upgrade mats, treasure carp, and prayer beads all over the place all of which I still highly value midway through the game. Despite not having additional weapons/armor I think there's a lot to dig into.
Also I really like the prosthetic tools and skills. Some are kinda hit or miss, but it gives the game a kind of Mega-Man feel to me. Taking the right tool to the right boss can change how hard the fight is by a huge amount for me, which makes it feel kind of like a contextual puzzle rather than a head bashing slog. For example I got my shit kicked in the first time I fought Gyoubu getting maybe one or two hits in total. I then sought out the firecracker since the guys you can eavesdrop on mentioned gunpowder, and also got the hookshot air attack, and destroyed him without taking a single hit. It changed the entire flow and feel of the fight just having those two options available.
I just beat Genichiro (which was an amazing fight), so it might go down or up a bit but so far for me I put this game squarely in the middle of the souls series above DS2 and DS3, and just below Bloodborne and DS1 (Never played Demon's Souls >.<). I do feel like it requires a different mindset than past souls games. The mentality is much closer to Bloodborne where I find it is most rewarding to play super aggressive rather than turtling.
Also I really like the prosthetic tools and skills. Some are kinda hit or miss, but it gives the game a kind of Mega-Man feel to me. Taking the right tool to the right boss can change how hard the fight is by a huge amount for me, which makes it feel kind of like a contextual puzzle rather than a head bashing slog. For example I got my shit kicked in the first time I fought Gyoubu getting maybe one or two hits in total. I then sought out the firecracker since the guys you can eavesdrop on mentioned gunpowder, and also got the hookshot air attack, and destroyed him without taking a single hit. It changed the entire flow and feel of the fight just having those two options available.
I just beat Genichiro (which was an amazing fight), so it might go down or up a bit but so far for me I put this game squarely in the middle of the souls series above DS2 and DS3, and just below Bloodborne and DS1 (Never played Demon's Souls >.<). I do feel like it requires a different mindset than past souls games. The mentality is much closer to Bloodborne where I find it is most rewarding to play super aggressive rather than turtling.
First two bosses, that gives achievements when defeating, i pretty much stood right by them and spam L1 or LB to beat them :|
They only souls game I fully completed was Dark Souls 3, I did it with zero summons, found it tough (Pontiff Sullivan can suck my dick) but Sekiro feels so much harder.
Undeniably, it is From's best playing game. The controls are pretty responsive, the framerate is high, and the storytelling here is clearer, more direct, and player friendly. There are a lot of choices, skills to unlock, abilities to master, passives to snag, etc. Perhaps most importantly in a From game, the level design is sprawling; it's a strange mix of strong coherency with incoherence: there are areas that are linear and meant to be consumed almost like a stealth-only game, and other areas that are wide and so vertical that I missed a large portion of the game for a while until I realized it later on. Sekiro's minute-to-minute gameplay is about understanding your environment so you can tackle the next challenge in the form of a large arena of difficult enemies, but the second-to-second of it is about learning and reacting to the intricacies of individual enemies: each enemy in Sekiro is a layered challenge, even when they only take a second to kill (and most don't). The visual language of these fights is something out of a hyper-violent anime... to me, it's Ninja Scroll as a videogame, and it's pretty damn crazy.
That being said. From software games are a super personal thing; your experience is yours, and I think Sekiro, despite all of the great things about it, will divide some players along certain lines of expectation: where most of the latest From offerings are RPGs, Sekiro is decidedly an action game. It's DNA is the same, the way it will make you feel is overwhelmingly similar, but it is undeniably different, and where other games offer depth through skill points, or by increasing invincibility frames on a roll, Sekiro has a way that it wants to be played and it's not going to capitulate. It has a laser focus on the combat, to a point where, so far in my playthrough, the typical "From" lol-worthy traps and other things don't exist here. Pathing is relatively safe until you turn a corner, and there's a new skill check waiting in front of you.
And yeah, Sekiro is harder than other Souls games -- not just different, actually harder, and that's going to (and has) hurt. There are so many bosses in Sekiro it can sometimes feel like a cosmic joke, especially if you're *just* coming off the high of murdering one of them. Each boss feels like a skill check of a different variety so far: one teaches how to block, another how to run, another how to parry, and so on and so forth until presumably you know how to do all of these things, or you at least realize that you don't, and that you need to learn how to do these things. I have found this to be the hardest experience for me: learning the difference between a sweep and a grab and a poke attack and reacting appropriately feels a bit like Simon Says with reaaaaaaallly small windows of time to answer in. It can be frustrating, since each type of attack is only telegraphed with a screen mechanic (a symbol) in the same way. Other games have probably done this better, and I think From could have managed a smarter, smoother system.
I also think the sheer number of bosses in the game maybe undercut the impact of some of the better ones: while everyone's experience is sure to be different, I played against minibosses that I thought were super hard, and then blasted on right by that Butterfly, which is one of the more interesting fights. The non-linearity of the game means you're likely to learn certain lessons in a different order, and that can mean that some fights go from being potentially herculean efforts to shockingly impotent. This is a good thing, in a way, because Sekiro is a hard game, so learning lessons early can only help the player, but the thunder of some fights gets stolen because of it. Also, while almost all the bosses are exciting and fun to fight against in their own right, the game lacks the contextualization of its cousins: boss fights in Dark Souls and Bloodborne feel like a true "event" in the game, because they are rare enough, and big enough, to be remembered. While I will certainly remember some bosses in my time with Sekiro, I am already feeling the memory of a few of the bosses slipping through the mental cracks.
Sekiro's world has all the things you'd expect: it's an expertly designed place with twists, turns, and a sense of verticality unmatched. It's beautiful, but it lacks some of the mystery, density, and character of the world of Bloodborne. I think, personally, Lovecraftian nightmares just have a lot of trouble being beaten by Feudal Japan -- even Miyazaki's take, which I actually described to a friend as "Think Hayao Miyazaki does R-rated." Sekiro has a few things you wouldn't expect, but it also has a ton more that you would, and while it looks amazing and is always thoughtful, the areas (so far) have lacked in the immediate variety that Bloodborne manages.
Also, that directness of storytelling? It makes me realize just how much I actually appreciate Soulsborne's less is more approach. The mystery of a Soulsborne game, the weird characters, the lack of direction, and yes, the lack of a coherent plotline -- these things fit, and work well in my opinion, but Sekiro doesn't really have this: its storytelling is a bit more on-the-nose, and its characters are willing to sometimes just say what they mean. There are cutscenes that legibly contribute to the plot. On paper, Sekiro is better for this. In actuality, I think I prefer the weird, undirected nature of other outings.
I'm still playing through the game. I think I'm near the end
, and opinions can change, but I feel reasonably confident in my appraisal so far. I think Sekiro is a great game so far, and I think it represents the finest combat in From's history of games. It's also their fairest, most direct, and hardest work to date (in my opinion). It's visual language is extraordinary and in the moments where it embraces the strange, it produces a high that even From's best total work today, Bloodborne, can't reach. But I think I prefer the environment and design -- RPG mechanics and all -- of Bloodborne.
Sekiro is an awesome game, and while I wouldn't recommend it as a "first From game", it is unquestionably the game I would point to right now to show that From Software is at the top of their class. If it doesn't take my top spot, I think I can make room in a 2nd place position.
That being said. From software games are a super personal thing; your experience is yours, and I think Sekiro, despite all of the great things about it, will divide some players along certain lines of expectation: where most of the latest From offerings are RPGs, Sekiro is decidedly an action game. It's DNA is the same, the way it will make you feel is overwhelmingly similar, but it is undeniably different, and where other games offer depth through skill points, or by increasing invincibility frames on a roll, Sekiro has a way that it wants to be played and it's not going to capitulate. It has a laser focus on the combat, to a point where, so far in my playthrough, the typical "From" lol-worthy traps and other things don't exist here. Pathing is relatively safe until you turn a corner, and there's a new skill check waiting in front of you.
And yeah, Sekiro is harder than other Souls games -- not just different, actually harder, and that's going to (and has) hurt. There are so many bosses in Sekiro it can sometimes feel like a cosmic joke, especially if you're *just* coming off the high of murdering one of them. Each boss feels like a skill check of a different variety so far: one teaches how to block, another how to run, another how to parry, and so on and so forth until presumably you know how to do all of these things, or you at least realize that you don't, and that you need to learn how to do these things. I have found this to be the hardest experience for me: learning the difference between a sweep and a grab and a poke attack and reacting appropriately feels a bit like Simon Says with reaaaaaaallly small windows of time to answer in. It can be frustrating, since each type of attack is only telegraphed with a screen mechanic (a symbol) in the same way. Other games have probably done this better, and I think From could have managed a smarter, smoother system.
I also think the sheer number of bosses in the game maybe undercut the impact of some of the better ones: while everyone's experience is sure to be different, I played against minibosses that I thought were super hard, and then blasted on right by that Butterfly, which is one of the more interesting fights. The non-linearity of the game means you're likely to learn certain lessons in a different order, and that can mean that some fights go from being potentially herculean efforts to shockingly impotent. This is a good thing, in a way, because Sekiro is a hard game, so learning lessons early can only help the player, but the thunder of some fights gets stolen because of it. Also, while almost all the bosses are exciting and fun to fight against in their own right, the game lacks the contextualization of its cousins: boss fights in Dark Souls and Bloodborne feel like a true "event" in the game, because they are rare enough, and big enough, to be remembered. While I will certainly remember some bosses in my time with Sekiro, I am already feeling the memory of a few of the bosses slipping through the mental cracks.
Sekiro's world has all the things you'd expect: it's an expertly designed place with twists, turns, and a sense of verticality unmatched. It's beautiful, but it lacks some of the mystery, density, and character of the world of Bloodborne. I think, personally, Lovecraftian nightmares just have a lot of trouble being beaten by Feudal Japan -- even Miyazaki's take, which I actually described to a friend as "Think Hayao Miyazaki does R-rated." Sekiro has a few things you wouldn't expect, but it also has a ton more that you would, and while it looks amazing and is always thoughtful, the areas (so far) have lacked in the immediate variety that Bloodborne manages.
Also, that directness of storytelling? It makes me realize just how much I actually appreciate Soulsborne's less is more approach. The mystery of a Soulsborne game, the weird characters, the lack of direction, and yes, the lack of a coherent plotline -- these things fit, and work well in my opinion, but Sekiro doesn't really have this: its storytelling is a bit more on-the-nose, and its characters are willing to sometimes just say what they mean. There are cutscenes that legibly contribute to the plot. On paper, Sekiro is better for this. In actuality, I think I prefer the weird, undirected nature of other outings.
I'm still playing through the game. I think I'm near the end
I am just about to destroy the corrupted monk
Sekiro is an awesome game, and while I wouldn't recommend it as a "first From game", it is unquestionably the game I would point to right now to show that From Software is at the top of their class. If it doesn't take my top spot, I think I can make room in a 2nd place position.
I mean, a big part of the problem is that this game is just like the Souls games in that you can't fight multiple enemies at once and the only real option is to stun or retreat. The game mostly just exacerbates the failing of the mechanics by constantly putting the player in situations with 4 or more enemies. The game is mostly unsure of what it wants to be. Is it a stealth game or a game about parrying? And while it tries to be both, it never really concentrates on either and the result is that they both end up feeling disjointed.
The push/pull of combat here has a lot of potential but the game never really gives you an opportunity to learn it in casual combat with rando enemies because you're fighting them in numbers, which means you're either not fighting them or stealth-killing them, to conserve resources. And so the only time you're getting actual combat experience is in boss fights, except those fights require you to spend a few minutes killing helpers. So once you're at that point you finally get to shift out of stealth killing mode and into parrying mode. Just hope you don't make 1 or 2 mistakes or you now need to do this whole cycle again. It's not really surprising why people would be frustrated with this. For the bigger bosses, it's still pushing up against that stealth versus parry dichotomy the game establishes. The fact that the Souls games are games that are heavily option-oriented, whereas Sekiro is a game that reduces your options to 1, is likely what frustrates many. And for many others, there's also the fact that it's much more twitchy and requires faster reflexes than any previous game.
The best fights are those where you really learn the parry system, without lots of unblockables, but those dry up quickly in the latter third and the gimmick train comes hard and fast.
The problem remains that you can still cheese pretty much every fight in the game though. The AI's still very straightforward when it comes to ranges and you can easily bait it. It's not a fun way to play, but it's far more effective and consistent than trying to play it the intended way.
Souls and Sekiro are both amazing series. Only thing I miss in Sekiro is more weapons options - Id love to use a staff instead of the katana. Still, love the fast pace combat and how parry works. It also takes way longer to master and understand than any Souls game.
tremendous game, i have a lot more fun with it than i had with the other From Soft titles. it just feels supreme and i LOVE the setting. it is everything i had hoped for. i prefer the fast paced fighting to the other games.
but there could be a few points added, a temple style "dungeon" like the chalices or something like that, more memory sections, a little more miniboss variety. other than that, this game is killer
funny is, after Sekiro i am more looking forward to Nioh 2 as before, i need more japanese fighting goodness in ancient japan ASAP. till then i will replay Sekiro over and over, it is perfectly made for going fast through it.
but there could be a few points added, a temple style "dungeon" like the chalices or something like that, more memory sections, a little more miniboss variety. other than that, this game is killer
funny is, after Sekiro i am more looking forward to Nioh 2 as before, i need more japanese fighting goodness in ancient japan ASAP. till then i will replay Sekiro over and over, it is perfectly made for going fast through it.
People who like Souls not really liking it is not an indictment of the game. They are inherently different games in the way you can approach the combat and progression.
That said, I love souls and really like Sekiro. I think I just really like From games. I love King's Field too.
That said, I love souls and really like Sekiro. I think I just really like From games. I love King's Field too.
stuck at the spear dude...and he is a miniboss
haven't had enough time to master the combat. So far my brain hasn't been able to handle the combat. The guy you can practice with doesn't even come close to actual enemy encounters. I wish he was better at actually teaching you how to engage people who actually have speed.
I just don't really care for it all that much SO FAR. tbh. My hype was through the roof. For now I'm just putting it down angry. Ill keep trying and hoping the combat clicks like it did in souls.
haven't had enough time to master the combat. So far my brain hasn't been able to handle the combat. The guy you can practice with doesn't even come close to actual enemy encounters. I wish he was better at actually teaching you how to engage people who actually have speed.
I just don't really care for it all that much SO FAR. tbh. My hype was through the roof. For now I'm just putting it down angry. Ill keep trying and hoping the combat clicks like it did in souls.
I do think it's unfortunate that Sekiro doesn't take the same level of directness with its combat as it does with other things. Like, I have probably killed a boss or two doing "the wrong thing," and I don't even know what that is, because, well, the game let me do it, and I wasn't penalized for it. I learned how to do a lot of the more complicated things through hint windows during a load. There have been at least three times now where I said "Wait, you can do that?!" while staring at a hint text. And you're right, there are plenty of times where it would seem that doing the "skillful" approach is overly punished, while doing the cheesier strats is safe and effective (if time-consuming and distinctly unfun). It can lead a player to wonder, right, "how *do* you want me to play this?"
Perhaps From can do some work on balance changes that can make the skillful play more rewarding, and the less skillful play, well, less so.
Ultimately it's a balance issue. I feel like the game should be balanced around parries but should also be rewarding for timing parries in better windows. Closer to frame perfect parries should deal more posture damage (free hit maybe?) and you get something out of it (a huge spark or visual indicator of this would be helpful as well). As combat is you get very little feedback for your performance other than it was okay or it was bad or you got hit. There's only marginal upside and a lot of downside. As it stands, most of the fights are rote memorization and rely more on speedrunning-like reflexes than any indication of what I'd call skill. I couldn't suss out patterns in the way patterns clearly existed for all bosses in the Souls series.
I think you're right about the first part: I think the game has incredible visual language while fighting, but it's not *entirely* helpful while you're actually fighting. For instance, as you say, the deflection doesn't look so different from a simple block that, in the heat of battle, you'll easily notice you're doing the right thing. Likewise, having the on-screen indicator for a sweep be the exact same indicator as a stab is a categorical mistake, and a gameplay one: an icon even partially covering the screen is a bad idea when you're requesting the player parse what is occurring by wind-up alone: this is why Batman and other games have different symbols. Human reaction time needs to be considered, but From is asking us to do additional processing on top of basic reaction time, which a lot of the time can just result in confusion / button-mashing.
I think, on the other hand, you're a bit unfair with your conclusion about skill, even if you're not wrong about the things Sekiro asks of the player. Or probably it's more fair to say that we don't see skill in the same way: I think we sell our muscles and brains a bit short to not attribute some level of skill to the processing required to "respond correctly" with such small visual windows and wind-ups, and certain pattern recognition and memorization are huge parts of not just fighting in Sekiro, but any fights in the Soulsborne series of games. Positioning is still extremely important, as is knowing how and when you can use abilities or -- and especially this -- heal yourself. I don't disagree that you can get kind of lost in the visual flourishes of this game, and by contrast Soulsborne games have higher coherence and legibility in the fights, but I do think that is the price we pay when we trade in the stamina system for what Sekiro is offering: the expectation is naturally higher on the player, and while it is far from perfect and I *do* hope From addresses some of what you've discussed, I think skill is going to be a large indicator for people who successfully complete the game without engaging in extreme cheese.
What exactly is 'punitive and obtuse' about it? There's pop up tutorial explanations for every major mechanic in the game which explain how something works and give an example of where/when to apply it. This is something souls or bloodborne never did and is a major difference in this games design. What aspect of it is obtuse?
The game definitely does not expect you to play 'double digits of hours' to make minimal progress.
No options? What about all the skill trees and the prosthetic upgrade tree? The extra enemies are meant to be deathblowed, since you're invulnerable for the entirety of a deathblow.
I haven't had any issues with the camera at all, the lock on has never broken for me when I didn't want it to, so I guess I can't comment on this.
The enemy placement is meant to be approached carefully. You grapple to a high point and survey the area, you plan how you're going to stealth kill enemies in which order, etc. You have to 'think like a shinobi'. If you don't want to think that way, the game will not be fun. Your character is fixed and you're being asked to live up to what the Wolf would do in these situations.
'The game is too hard' I guess. I don't agree but you're valid.
Exploration yields.. almost all of the prosthetics. Which are more rewarding to me than almost any items I'd find in Bloodborne or something but I guess if you don't like the prosthetics as a system than it would feel that way.
Unlock the Mikiri Counter and learn it well. It's your main tool for punishing any perilous thrust attacks in the game - and a lot of not so obvious ones count as thrust attacks like thrusting kicks. Activating the counter is IMO easiest when you are not pushing a direction on the joystick and just hit the button a few times when you see a thrust attack coming and hear the audio cue.
For anyone struggling with the game, stop spamming buttons. That for me was hard to learn considering how much Souls games allow this. You get better results timing your attacks and deflections like a rhythm game. I still struggle getting jump attacks right.
If I have a complaint, it's that some minibosses have excessive posture that you have to whittle away because they have seemingly no openings to even take off any significant amount of health. I think From has intended that if you select the right prosthetic tool you can punish many of the bosses but it can be difficult to find the right one if it's not in the obvious "hey there's this tough enemy and nearby you find this new tool" type of situation and I feel only where I am at the game right now upgrade materials are starting to become easier to find.