i dont like sony's restriction any more than the next guy, but isnt dualsense practically the same as the ds4 with an extra gimmick or two? i dont know why it would be worse for accessibility
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Sony's Dualshock 4 restriction for the PS5 raises concerns of accessibility
- Thread starter Dancrane212
- Start date
For all the people in here defending Sony's decision to do this because it's "progressive tech" or the features on ps5 controllers are different (even though we only really know of 1), this is why companies feel that they can force people to upgrade, in 2020 there is no valid reason why a PS4 controller would not work in a ps5, granted you couldn't expect all features to work but basic buttons and sticks should work just fine. Stop justifying this behaviour.
They can make their own games 3xclusive to DualSense but don't sacrifice important feature because of those 20%-30% games that will be released over entire generation. On top of that I can bet that you will be able to turn off all of those features in PS5 games.
True, somehow i was thinking only about first party titles
I was under the impression that the triggers were somewhat different control wise, not just feedback.
I wasn't informed enough, sorry.
With everything everyone pointed out in regards to my original message (and i'm thankful for that) i do agree the DS4 should be usable in the PS5.
The first guy quoted in OP is saying the PS4 controller is the only current gen controller he can currently use so why isn't Microsoft being criticised ITT for retaining an inaccessible design?
The same guy also says he had the same concerns at the start of the generation due to the new PS4 controller which turned out to be fine. It seems like any change creates a risk in this regard - is that a reason to never change/push forward the hardware? For all we know the new controller could have accessibility features that make it more accessible to a wider range of disabled gamers, you'd hope that's the kind of thing Sony would take into account in their ergonomics testing.
The same guy also says he had the same concerns at the start of the generation due to the new PS4 controller which turned out to be fine. It seems like any change creates a risk in this regard - is that a reason to never change/push forward the hardware? For all we know the new controller could have accessibility features that make it more accessible to a wider range of disabled gamers, you'd hope that's the kind of thing Sony would take into account in their ergonomics testing.
Doesn't the XBox controller have no gyro features at all?
Surely the discussion should be around wider needs, rather than going to bat for one platform or another.
I was always under the impression that there were specialist controllers, had no idea that doing such adaptations to the DS4 was such a widespread thing. The best thing to come out of this is publicising that fact and encouraging Sony to change tack. If they adjust the guidance to make the DS5 recommended rather than required then that would solve the issue in the short term.
The system would then just need to adapt to some features being missing (i.e. haptics and feedback).
In the longer term, look at many providing some mechanism to better support accessible controllers. Needing the adapt the DS4 seems extreme.
There's no reason why they can't both innovate with controllers and provide support for alternatives.
I didn't realise it was open and USB. They should definitely do this or their own equivalent
I want game companies to utilize all aspects of new hardware ASAP, so i was inclined to be onboard with Sony's decision to leave the DS4 behind. But actually thinking about it a little, what's new with the controller is all to do with providing additional feedback. Or I guess the DS5 has a mic array as well. But that seems like it'd only be an issue when a game asks you to blow into the mic. For those situations the developer could just let the player hit a button or whatever instead.
It seems rare to me that games rely solely on controller feedback to let players know what's happening, they'll still use visuals and audio to communicate stuff, and regardless they should be fully playable without controller feedback. At worst you'll have less of a sense of how drawn that bowstring is or when the character is about to lose their grip of it. That seems less bad than not being able to play the game at all.
Sony ought to just reverse this decision, have PS5 games support the DS4. And/or support or create a controller designed with accessibility in mind.
It seems rare to me that games rely solely on controller feedback to let players know what's happening, they'll still use visuals and audio to communicate stuff, and regardless they should be fully playable without controller feedback. At worst you'll have less of a sense of how drawn that bowstring is or when the character is about to lose their grip of it. That seems less bad than not being able to play the game at all.
Sony ought to just reverse this decision, have PS5 games support the DS4. And/or support or create a controller designed with accessibility in mind.
The key difference is that Xbox has the Adaptive Controller, which is specifically designed to be customisable to accommodate various disabilities. And it's forward compatible with the Series X (as are all Xbox One controllers).
No gyro is still annoying, though, as my specific disability (rheumatoid arthritis in my thumbs) makes gyro a welcome alternative to thumbsticks.
As far as i know you need to have option to turn off any kind of microphone on device these days or something like that.
Yeah, it's brilliant they've made that and a huge step forward, adding gyro and supporting it in the system would be icing on the cake.
Always annoyed me there was such push back against that feature.
If we could push towards industry-wide accessibility features, get them supported across the board, and make them cheaper and more widely available then we may just make some headway. This just feels like a blip where we're otherwise making progress and it should be easily resolvable in this case.
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing concerns of accessibility, ignoring thread reply banner
So you are saying Developers should add DS4 support for every single game on PS5. Which means they will probably just ignore all haptic feedback on the DualSense at that point because anyone could be using a DS4 at anytime.
Sounds great for PS5 gamers who were hyped for using an all the new controller that came with the system. Meanwhile you say Sony can have exclusives with haptic feedback but need to be able to turn it off and use DS4 controller as well so no games like 1-2 switch or mario party or just dance just nothing like that for ps5.
You sure are friendly to what Sony was trying to go for with the DualSense aren't you?
You know how many multiplat developers used the touchpad last gen? A ton, you know why? Because you couldn't use PS3 controllers on the PS4. If people could use the PS3 controllers on the PS4 now guess how many of those games would use the touchpad? Think how many. Yeah zero.
For the 100th time they already need to have DS4 support because they are releasing game on other platforms. And how many games are using TouchPad on PS4? TouchPad was treated as button for 90% of games.
What are you talking about? DS4 is a requirement for the backwards compatability on the PS5. Also why would sony change the basic software and hardware so that pushing left on a DS4 is now up on the Duelsense.
Yep, it's a conscious decision when they allow specific controllers like racing wheels and arcade sticks from last gen.
Considering how Naughty Dog made a game that has been praised for is push to be accessible for blind people, they can add other ways to represent whatever is intended with the haptic feedback for people who can't use it.
Come on .The thread is specifically about how Sony is restricting DS4 use on PS5, if you want to create a thread about the specifics of the xbox controller being inaccessible you're fine to.
You mean the big'ol map button? The touchpad that often was functionally the same as the Option button on Xbox One?
User Warned: Derailing
To me the primary topic of this thread is next gen accessibility. If you had general concerns about accessibility you wouldn't be against a general discussion of accessibility.
A separate new thread would play into trival console warring. A grown up comparative conversation would treat these as the related concerns that they are.
What? It's a glorified Select button in like 90 percent of games. Even a lot of first party games barely used it.
Sony are doing this because it's the way it has always been done and they can get away with it, but as someone who still uses a 360 controller on PC (Among others) I can assure people that it won't be too much effort to get the DS4 working. In my experience new controller features are rarely used in a meaningful way by anything but exclusives.
User Banned (1 month): concern trolling, ignoring staff post
I think the solution here is for Sony or 3rd party to create a controller for people with disabilities, like Microsoft did. DS4 wasn't designed with those people in mind, if it was better for them, I guess it was a lucky side-effect - but it can be made even better. It's a bit sad that Sony didn't come out with their own version of the adaptive controller. I hope they do so this gen - or at least officially licence a 3rd party adaptive controler.
With that said - I still think what Sony did with the controller is a good move - pushing for new technologies and experiences. Personally I prefer the generational approach. The solution for people with disabilities shouldn't be "let's not change our tech" - it should be "let's make a range of controllers designed for people with special needs". It is an important issue.
I also have to wonder - how many people here are genuinely concerned about people with special needs (which I would like to be true), and how many are just riding on that "anti-consumer" train that is now a thing here. I do hope most people here truly do feel empathy towards people that can't use every controller. But the pressure on Sony to create more accessible controllers should've been present this generation, too - and it should continue in the next one.
With that said - I still think what Sony did with the controller is a good move - pushing for new technologies and experiences. Personally I prefer the generational approach. The solution for people with disabilities shouldn't be "let's not change our tech" - it should be "let's make a range of controllers designed for people with special needs". It is an important issue.
I also have to wonder - how many people here are genuinely concerned about people with special needs (which I would like to be true), and how many are just riding on that "anti-consumer" train that is now a thing here. I do hope most people here truly do feel empathy towards people that can't use every controller. But the pressure on Sony to create more accessible controllers should've been present this generation, too - and it should continue in the next one.
Yes and im telling you for the 200th time if PS5 games requires DS4 support then haptic feedback will not be put into any multi-platform game on ps5. If DualSense is required then developers would be much more likely to add haptic feedback to the games for the ps5 version. Do you understand how it works now?
Also here some games that did use the touchpad on PS4 metal gear solid 5, injustice, nba2k, elite dangeorus, Tomb Raider, assassin creed, gravity rush and many many more. A ton of exclusives used the touchpad too. Not just as a button like you want the DualSense to be just a button controller.
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Yeah, we know that was the title that was making the Sony apologists angry.I start to think this is not a Sony thing, i think it has to do with defending corporations, i mean some of them are the same people worried about how MS is going to make a profit with gamepass, so...
Every PS5 comes with DualSense so there is no reason why developers shouldn't take advantage of that gamepad if they want to. Majority of PS5 gamepads will be DualSense. But leave people who don't care about those features option to use devices they already have.
Man, this is such an stupid move by Sony, I have been last few years really impressed by more and more accessibility options in games. Spiderman for instance, could turn off QTE's and stuff if you wanted. Now this for what? Hyping up some new features that apparently can't survive on their own without ensuring their customers must use them... Real powermove there... /s
Would not be surprised if Sony walks this one back.
Would not be surprised if Sony walks this one back.
How about just support it and make things optional, you can't seriously tell me that 3rd parties are going to design a game around a specific controller from a specific manufacturer. I don't even understand how that shit is so mindblowing that justified not caring about people with disabilities.
From this threads (updated) title and and the opening post linking to this article, the focus of discussion is about the DS4's limited ability with the PS5. Just because you come in here with "what about xbox" ten pages in doesn't turn the framing into a general discussion of accessibility.
Also I do not appreciate you insinuating that I'm using concerns of accessibility for console warring.
Developers will program for the lowest common denominator first especially multi-platform games if the game has to run on dual shock 4 on ps5 then it will be built for it. Just like the PS3 controller didn't have a touchpad and I listed 10 games that required and used it on ps4. Developers won't be able to add anything special or unique to the game with haptic feedback as long as the DS4 must work for the game and thats a fact.\
Earlier you said Sony could make exclusives and third party exclusives that require the DualSense but now you are saying leave people who don't care about those features the option to use dual shock 4 I'm so confused can they require haptic feedback or not? Are you in charge or are they?
I wish people would stop talking about "advancements in the PS5 controller" being a good reason for things no longer working. It's fancy rumble, they didn't add new buttons or change anything significant, if I turn rumble/adaptive triggers off I'm just using a PS4 controller in a different shape.
Lowest common denominator is DualSense because it comes with console
Correlation is not causation. Noting first that I don't presently have access to the Series X hardware so this is educated speculation; the ability for the Series X to use Xbox One controllers is because Microsoft have seemingly hardened their current generation Xinput API, they can run the controllers because nothing on the programming side changed unlike 360->One.
I would believe Microsoft would be able to add gyroscope support no problem without breaking the existing compatibility, much like... Checks notes... the PS2s ability to run PS1 controllers in even select PS2 games (entirely up to the developer) despite the dualshock2s analog face buttons among other things.
How so you just said the DS4 needs to be able to play every game on the PS5 and the DS4 doesn't have the DualSense haptic feedback so it is much lower and a last gen controller.
It's not as simple as turning rumble off? Because if not it should be
Those are not gameplay related features. You can play game fine without haptics or adaptive triggers.
Has there ever been an expectation that controllers will work across multiple generations? Sony always seem to introduce some new gimmick with the Dualshocks on a new gen that makes the old version obsolete but the form of the controller tends to only evolve a small amount and remain very familiar. Would we still want to be stuck with Sixaxis on the PS5?!
I remember being excited, but also worried when the wii was shown. I have cerebral palsy so the idea of using motion to control a game, scared me a little. I Games like Wii Fit, only let me play parts of them, but I am lucky enough that most of the time, I did fine.
With Ring Fit Adventure, they have options, for example telling the game you have hurt your knee so that the character runs for you. I hope options like these will be more and more common. For example they could make games playable without using all the functions of the dualsense. Or even better, if we make our voice heard, add support for ps4 controllers in games that could work fine with that controller too.
With Ring Fit Adventure, they have options, for example telling the game you have hurt your knee so that the character runs for you. I hope options like these will be more and more common. For example they could make games playable without using all the functions of the dualsense. Or even better, if we make our voice heard, add support for ps4 controllers in games that could work fine with that controller too.
Oh! That is rather incredible. May I get a link to the twitter thread where this was being discussed?
Thank you.
Because one person finding one controller that fits their specific set of accessibility requirements does not mean that all other controllers are inaccessible, nor indeed that other users with different accessibility requirements couldn't find Microsoft's solution to be more suited to their needs.
So dualsense may not be inaccessible then? We haven't even tested it but people already have a verdict
It probably won't be for some people, sure. However, it definitely will be for some people if the haptics and adaptive triggers can't be turned off, and if they can be turned off, there's no good reason not to let people use their existing setups along with the mics in their headsets to be able to play the game.
Because this isnt about wars and Microsoft have an accessible controller available that works with a lot more than Xbox One.
Expectations change over time. We live in a world where you can play formally PlayStation exclusives on a PC with an Xbox controller.
You've said yourself, "gimmicks". Sixaxis, the touch pad, light bar, the rear touch pad and touch screen of the Vita.. Sony have a history of introducing new features on controllers that don't go anywhere. And, ultimately, that don't deviate from the standard setup of dual analogue/D-Pad/4 triggers/4 face buttons.
Unless a game is absolutely reliant on features of the DualSense for primary control inputs, then the standard controller setup of the PS4 controller should still be available for games that use the same buttons on PS5. I'm yet to read a convincing argument as to why this shouldn't be the case.
As long as the third party accessibility controllers and modded controllers still work, this seems a bit much to me.
Demanding high ergonomics and usability from the new controller, more options for attachments for people who need them (and that will work with future hardware) and highly customizable UI is what we as a community should aim for.
No one has held the new controller for any serious review. Requiring backwards compatibility for every generation rules out widespread use of new features. Honestly Sony should work on something like the MS controller and design that to be extendable moddable for future designs. Have that as a parallel track for people who need it. Accessibility needs to be a higher priority in all tech products because it increases usability for everyone.
Demanding high ergonomics and usability from the new controller, more options for attachments for people who need them (and that will work with future hardware) and highly customizable UI is what we as a community should aim for.
No one has held the new controller for any serious review. Requiring backwards compatibility for every generation rules out widespread use of new features. Honestly Sony should work on something like the MS controller and design that to be extendable moddable for future designs. Have that as a parallel track for people who need it. Accessibility needs to be a higher priority in all tech products because it increases usability for everyone.
The reality of multi-platform development rules out the widespread use of new features, backwards compatibility doesn't.
You say that but on the Wii there were a ton of games that had optional motion controls in addition to GameCube controller support. Sonic Riders Zero Gravity for example required tilting the Wii Remote if you used it by itself, but using a Classic controller, Nunchuck, or GameCube controller allowed you to bypass this completely.
Unless the new haptics or triggers are inherently tied to the experience to the point the game is unplayable without them (unlikely outside of some Sony 1st party titles) then most games will probably have the option to turn them off or modify them as many games have had for rumble for decades.
Or maybe just tell the player beforehand, that they have to use a DS5 for this game. Since most games won't rely on haptic feedback a DS4 should work just fine for those games.
Yeah it's in the OP. I might have it wrong but even the person who replied like my tweet and I haven't been able to get a clear answer if something special needs to happen to have the adaptive controller work on ps4 but it sounded like to me it just worked.