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Sony and Microsoft are playing different card games | Gamesindustry.biz
- Thread starter Equanimity
- Start date
The article succinctly lays out why it's the case- MS wants a tabula rasa and is aggressively pursuing the narrative that it has learned its lessons since the days of Don Mattrick's leadership. Phil Spencer has been perhaps the best thing to have happened to Xbox since its inception. His greatest strength is in being able to surround himself with the right people and trusting them.
On the other hand Sony having their played their cards right have been enjoying the fruits of their labour this generation and yet that they may be shackled by their continued success in terms of messaging atm. However, Sony are the 800lb gorilla and Mark Cerny's attitude towards constructing a console based on the feedback of first and third party devs and balancing it against value proposition, they deem is acceptable to consumers, have not changed.
Different messages thought it may have been thus far, both of them have yet to substantially reveal next gen projects in the works. And if Sony's previous showings of projects are any indication of their trend, then they'll show off gameplays during the reveal.
It's truly gotten insufferable after the Cerny talk.
On the other hand Sony having their played their cards right have been enjoying the fruits of their labour this generation and yet that they may be shackled by their continued success in terms of messaging atm. However, Sony are the 800lb gorilla and Mark Cerny's attitude towards constructing a console based on the feedback of first and third party devs and balancing it against value proposition, they deem is acceptable to consumers, have not changed.
Different messages thought it may have been thus far, both of them have yet to substantially reveal next gen projects in the works. And if Sony's previous showings of projects are any indication of their trend, then they'll show off gameplays during the reveal.
It's truly gotten insufferable after the Cerny talk.
Isn't the thing that really drives sales the general mindshare something has? Obviously 'good games' help, as does the very strong PS brand, but this is about more than just that. See: all game sales charts ever.
It's easier to get an FPS, resolution/ performance bump from raw graphical power than it is from a faster ssd.
I missed this article, thanks for showing it to me.
PS4 BC on the PS5 to work on “overwhelming majority” of the library, games to benefit from improved frame rates and resolutions
A quick update on backward compatibility – With all of the amazing games in PS4’s catalog, we’ve devoted significant efforts to enable our fans to play their favorites on PS5. We believe that the overwhelming majority of the 4,000+ PS4 titles will be playable on PS5. We’re expecting backward...www.resetera.com
Neither do, except in the minds of fanboys and consolewarz clickbait article writers.
Be honest. the only reason anyone is hating on the deep dive is because they are starved for new game trailers and stuff. Of course sony will show PS5 exclusives and new epic games. Sequels, and third party next entries. Within two or three months all will be well. I am not worried at all.
They won't launch the system without games. Godfall is just about all we know about and even that doesn't look bad
They won't launch the system without games. Godfall is just about all we know about and even that doesn't look bad
I have problems with people being disingenuous. Like people saying the SSD will never be utilized by third party, well then the 44% increase in Ray tacing wont be either. Why would a third party dev pump extra time and resources into something that can't be used by both systems? That's something that goes both ways.
The Minecraft Demo was fully Ray Traced. So it costs a lot of performance. Just like with PC, most games will combine Ray Tracing and Rasterization rather then go full ray tracing. But developers can also combine DirectML (Microsoft's version of Nvidia's DLSS) and Variable Rate Shading to get back some substantial performance. Digital Foundry showed this with Control using DLSS (they compared it On and Off). You can use machine learning upscaling to claw back a significant amount of performance.
No problem, it would've been utterly ridiculous if it really were 100 games at launch.
That's not how it works. XSX, PC and PS5 all have RT capability. One can have better RT than the others, just like frame rate, resolution, shadow quality etc as RT can be applied on a sliding scale (look at Digital Foundry Control PC RT video).
Now obviously the faster speed of the PS5 SSD can always apply by reducing load times etc the problem arises when people say it will change the way games are designed. It will, but only for PS5 exclusives.
Take a next gen GTA/CoD/AC for example, it's fairly obvious at this stage the XSX version would be superior to the PS5 version in things like resolution, frame rates and RT (mainly due to the increased CU count which cant be overcome by the PS). The PS5 version would likely load faster (not by much as the XSX has an excellent SSD design also), but that wouldn't be taking full advantage of the PS5s SSD.
The biggest gains in that respect, and where you will see this new game design paradigm, will be from PS5 1st party exclusives.
They need to answer me how the fuck SharePoint is so unrealiable when using their API
I mean I'm not betting man, but I think we already know...
the ps5 won't be 600$
what devs were explaining about fast SSD was that it will increase LOD, and that is pretty simple to implement and use, and will probably be very noticeable. They also wont have to pre-load as much data into RAM, leaving it free for other things. You had some dev from ND post screenshot of what better hdd loading managment did for LOD level in their two games and difference was huge.
Now how much of difference is that going to be for 2.4 GBs vs 5.5 GBs, we will have to see when games come out... same goes for the more CUs vs higher clocked CUs.
Question, will we see this level of fidelity (or close to it) on Poker and Black Jack playing machines:
Which is what PS's strength is and how it differentiates itself from other platforms, and the main reason for its success thus far: exclusives.
So in a broader sense, letting another platform have the raw power crown as a trade-off, in exchange for being able to create new and innovative types of games and experiences that can only be had on their platform might actually be playing to their strength.
Interesting generation ahead for sure.
Again, those things you listed as advantages to the PS5 SSD are not making full use of it, if it is to "redefine the way games are designed", it's just better LOD and loading times.
A 3rd party developer of a multiplat is not going to create a game that takes full advantage of the PS5 SSD as it wont work on PC or XSX. Taking advantage of the almost 50% increase in CUs to improve the RT is much simpler to achieve.
Oh and we do know the effect of more CUs vs less but faster CUs. The wide approach (more CUs) is better in almost every instance especially when aiming for high resolutions & frame rates with some form of RT. We also know RT scales better with more CUs than it does with fewer but faster ones.
That's not what it says says...xbox one was a poor seller by xbox360 standards...underpowered and with lame ass ideas like inability to sell or share your games, and the magic cloud making up for its lower specs than ps4...Microsoft is much more in need of a new generation than Sony is...this shouldn't be controversial...
Oh I agree, my response was to someone who said that if 3P devs cant take full advantage of the PS5s SSD then they wont take advantage of the XSX better RT performance.
I was just pointing out that's not apples to apples as to take full advantage of the PS5s SSD requires a game to be designed around it (redefines the way games are designed remember) and is therefore excluded from PC and XSX as they dint have that capability.
Taking advantage of the increased CU count to improve your RT on the XSX is much simpler.
It's not 50% in RT or 44% like what some people saying .
It the same as TF advantage which around 15% to 20% for RT
AMD RT hardware scales with speed so it CU count plus clock speed .
Also if you aim for higher res on XSX it no longer has a RT advantage .
"the reality is that we won't know for certain how much of a difference these hardware design decisions have made until we start seeing finished games running on production hardware, which remains months away."
This is what I've been saying in the PS5 specs reveal thread....MS and Sony will focus on high tech differentiation which will probably make most punters want both consoles for different reasons...its the smart way to share market share as the new generation progresses...
This is what I've been saying in the PS5 specs reveal thread....MS and Sony will focus on high tech differentiation which will probably make most punters want both consoles for different reasons...its the smart way to share market share as the new generation progresses...
I agree. The PS4/XBO generation drew very clear lines for most people except a small fraction of the hardcore.
Someone mentioned this being an amazing console war ? It's actually extremely boring and predictable, and I'm fine with that. I'm only interested in seeing how the new games run.
This is how it is with every console generation transition.
The platform holder that was in the weakest position in the previous generation is the first one to start the hype train for the next generation. They're eager for that "Tabula Rasa" as you say.
Traditionally, console transitions are tumultuous times because they essentially reshuffle the deck -- brand loyalty from one console generation to the next doesn't really exist as far as the masses are concerned, people have easily shifted from Nintendo to Sony to Microsoft back to Sony. This might be a generation transition that changes that though. Both Sony and Microsoft are going in with backwards compatibility, and the most mainstream games right now are service-oriented games with long tails that will probably transcend console generations.
How much will Microsoft actually be able to "reshuffle" things this time when there are more people playing Rainbow Six Siege and Overwatch on PS4 than Xbox One, and those people will be more likely to keep playing those games on PS5 rather than Series X?
There are going to be mindblowing games on both systems when they are designed primarily for them. The increase in power of these systems from the base Xbox One and PS4 is crazy - I can't even fathom how good games will look based on how impressed I am with games that have come out over the past couple of years such as Uncharted 4, God of War, Spiderman, RDR2.
I am most enthused about the game design improvements that will come along with this generation because I think we're finally going to see something new based on dropping HDDs. If one system has slightly better resolution that's upscaled I'm not sure I'll care. I'm always struggling to find differences between graphics fidelity in the comparison videos on DF.
I just want 60 fps!
I am most enthused about the game design improvements that will come along with this generation because I think we're finally going to see something new based on dropping HDDs. If one system has slightly better resolution that's upscaled I'm not sure I'll care. I'm always struggling to find differences between graphics fidelity in the comparison videos on DF.
I just want 60 fps!
In a constantly shifting industry where we have a new market leader almost every 5 years, I totally disagree. If what you say is true Xbox one would have sold exactly the same as the X360. The market leader always changes.
These articles are aimed at the hardcore amd evangelists, the journalists. The people who will be explaining and recommending purchases to the less knowledgable, who just want to game on the most exciting new platform.
MS does have a very different strategy than Sony these days, but they still see Sony as competition.
Do you think rays will be traced only once per CUs in each frame?
I kinda agree with his points and yours. The vast majority of people who will buy these consoles won't even know what the spec sheet says and many people who do don't care. No one who was dying to buy the next Halo and Gears looks at the SSD and says I guess I'm forced to get a PS5 because everything will run like a turtle. And no one who is foaming at the mouth for Horizon and God of War 2 has said well looks like games will be ugly on ps5 with that lower teraflop count so I guess Xbox it is.
Xbox performed so bad this generation that they are undoubtedly going to do better. I don't think it beats Sony because Sony is the most consistent brand in the industry historically.
Both are going to be absolute graphical machines with no shortage of amazing games. You can't really go wrong!
So what you're saying is that all the third party devs Cerny talked to and asked 'What would you like in a console that would help make better games?' won't be using, or won't be able to use, the toolset he's provided.
The market leader changes yes but you have to look at how it happens .
The US and UK market is a very hard fight for both companies but other part of EU things will be the same since PS1.
This line is factually incorrect, unless you edited your post to remove them market leader changes every 5-7 years lol
Last 4 gens:
Sony
Sony
Nintendo
Sony
If by the market leader changing every 5 years you mean it goes from Sony to Sony to Nintendo to Sony to Sony then yes, it changes every 5 years.
Win in terms of sales? The ps5 must be a heavy heavy favourite to win the battle.
Atari (Atari 2600) > Nintendo (NES) > Sega (Genesis) > Nintendo (Snes) > Sony (PS1) > Sony (PS2) > Microsoft (X360) > Nintendo (Wii) > Sony (PS4) >>>> Nintendo (Switch)? > ?
The market is constantly shifting. I like to believe this is in part due to the Humbleness to Arrogance cycle
- Humble Company innovates, entire company pulls together, makes a series of great decisions
- Success, becomes market leader
- Success leads to arrogance, key staff depart, company stops innovating as much as competitors
- Competitor overtakes market leader
- Former market leader is humbled
- The Cycle continues
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The 360 wasn't ahead of the PS3 so you're wrong there and your bullet points are not a cycle of any of the console makers. The only developer that had an arrogant moment was Sony. The Xbox Ones failure had nothing to do with being overly cocky they completely misread the market.
The 360 was ahead of the PS3 for the entire generation. I've heard that at the very tail end, PS3 might have overtaken X360, but I've never seen official numbers indicating this, and PS3 was taken off the market sooner than X360. Both were overtaken by the Wii, which is why I listed the Wii after the X360, similar to how the Snes eventually overtook the Genesis.
This isn't the whole story because Nintendo offered multiple hardware options thru both portable and home console
I'm pretty up in the air with what my next-gen strategy is going to be. It's not because of the spec sheets though.
In fact MS never "won" a gen, their best console was leagues behind Wii sales, so they got cocky with Kinect without even being the number 1.
First party exclusives have very little to do with PS4s success. The system had sold 40 million units by the time its first mass market exclusive launched (Uncharted 4), and 18 of the top 20 grossing games on PS4 are crossplat.
It's a pretty obvious counterfactual, actually - say they had never released God of War, Last of Us 2, Horizon, Last Guardian, or Ghosts. They still would have owned the generation.
That said, I don't disagree that the design sort of plays to what Sony is traditionally known for. They'll have some amazing titles to show off. But I think the people who are into those experiences were going to buy a PS5 anyway. By resetting the brand and taking both the power (XSX) and price (Lockhart) narratives, MS is hoping to make up significant ground with the COD/GTA/Madden gamers that make up the vast majority.
I never knew that Resetera was full of so many professional gaming developers! It's incredible!
I see so many posts about how hard it will be for developers to utilize the SSD fully on PS5, and how easy is to develop for XSX. Everyone must know what they are talking about, with so much experience and wisdom!
/sarcasm
These are the facts right now:
1) Sony has not unveiled every detail of PS5 yet.
2) Sony is doing things differently.
3) Developers are loving BOTH consoles!
And I can assume that absolutely NO ONE in the gaming industry is so desperate about the consoles' differences than here in ERA!
I can't believe that we're getting back to PS3/360 fanboyism, and neither of the consoles have been fully revealed yet!
It scares me to imagine how people will react when the pricing is announced!
I see so many posts about how hard it will be for developers to utilize the SSD fully on PS5, and how easy is to develop for XSX. Everyone must know what they are talking about, with so much experience and wisdom!
/sarcasm
These are the facts right now:
1) Sony has not unveiled every detail of PS5 yet.
2) Sony is doing things differently.
3) Developers are loving BOTH consoles!
And I can assume that absolutely NO ONE in the gaming industry is so desperate about the consoles' differences than here in ERA!
I can't believe that we're getting back to PS3/360 fanboyism, and neither of the consoles have been fully revealed yet!
It scares me to imagine how people will react when the pricing is announced!
Maybe throwing people off with using market leader or shifting market? If we're measuring by actual console generations it's pretty much just been Sony and Nintendo unless you really think it's important to go back to "generations" without real competition.
The 360 did incredibly well, but it didn't end as a market leader. I don't really believe arrogance cost Nintendo or Xbox with their failures either nor do I think the PS4's success was due to them being humbled by the PS3 not dominating like PS2.
Designing systems with ideas that companies think people will love that end up being rejected can't simply be chalked up to cockiness. Nor can designing a system you think people love that gets love be chalked up to a humble attitude.
They're both being frustratingly boring. I remember the days when we had E3 conferences a year out where they were showing off new games, tech demos, controllers, etc. Now it's just a slow drip. SO BORING. I give plaudits to MS for being a bit more open. I strongly believe that in May we'll get some exciting stuff.
Putting aside the PS3/360 debate (though I don't know where you got the idea the PS3 was taken off the market sooner, the 360 was discontinued in April 2016, while the PS3 was discontinued in May 2017), if you acknowledge the Wii passed the 360 and won that generation, there's no point including the 360 in there as the only reason it was ever in the lead was because it came out first. Using your logic, you may as well include the Wii U too.
