Sony and closing down online servers

Haze · Dec 10, 2019

scare_crow said:
Uh, no. Annoyed or disappointed? Sure. But angry? No. I certainly wouldn't call it FUCKING DISGUSTING or anything. Again, we clearly just feel differently about this.

I'm not "handwaving" anything. It's a full year! I guess I just don't feel like that's a cataclysmic slap in the face. Again (again, again), I can understand disappointment, but coloring it as some super shady or disgusting move just doesn't click with me.

I think you're a little too focused on the language but it is kind of wild to me that you're perfectly ok with an online game losing functionality a little over a year later. Especially a first-party game whose first party charges a premium to use online "services"

scare_crow · Dec 10, 2019

clusterdreams said:
I think you're a little too focused on the language but it is kind of wild to me that you're perfectly ok with an online game losing functionality a little over a year later. Especially a first-party game whose first party charges a premium to use online "services"

I don't know what to tell you, man. I don't think it's nearly as big of deal as lot of people in here.
Have a good one.

Aswitch · Dec 10, 2019

I want all games to stay up forever but for when that doesn't happen.....I think that's where preservation and creating an architecture with that in mind comes into play. Things like Outbreak revival and MGO2 Revival are great examples of this. While not necessarily the same, stuff like Xlink Kai and xbconnect are also great ways to experience "online" when there's no longer support.

R.I.P to Devil's Third/Rockshot gone too soon :'(

Haze · Dec 10, 2019

scare_crow said:
I don't know what to tell you, man. I don't think it's nearly as big of deal as lot of people in here.
Have a good one.

So the next online game you buy that you really enjoy, if they cut it off in a year you're ok with that?

Chettlar · Dec 11, 2019

ShapeGSX said:
Sony to AWS: "Can I make that machine over there the Gravity Rush 2 server?"
AWS to Sony: "Yeah, but let me show you all this cool shit you can do! You can virtualize and you'll never have to..."
Sony to AWS: "Can't talk now, have some old servers to shut down!"

lmao

Zem · Dec 11, 2019

I would love to be able to just get some friends together and play a few hours of Uncharted 2 MP every few months. That I can't is extremely disappointing.

Asbsand · Dec 11, 2019

EloKa said:
PSN is also basically the company called "Gakai"

Waaaaait, does PS Now use the Gaikai service then? I remember playing a web browser cloud gaming demo using "Gaikai" and it was lag-free.

TheYanger · Dec 11, 2019

It's really kind of sad how many people in this thread seem to think that modern games are run by some server rack literally labelled "DRIVECLUB" that sony is pouring thousands of dollars into a month somewhere. The cost of running these games as part of your service is practically nothing. They're not generally MMOs with rooms full of dedicated hardware.

Agent X · Dec 11, 2019

TheYanger said:
It's really kind of sad how many people in this thread seem to think that modern games are run by some server rack literally labelled "DRIVECLUB" that sony is pouring thousands of dollars into a month somewhere. The cost of running these games as part of your service is practically nothing. They're not generally MMOs with rooms full of dedicated hardware.

I had figured "costs" would be the primary reason why Sony would shut down these servers. If the costs are negligible, as you say, then could there be another reason?

It's not like annual sports games, where they would do this to phase out the old games and encourage people to purchase the newer releases. Most of the games that Sony shut down do not have a sequel or other clear replacement.

scare_crow · Dec 12, 2019

Haze said:
So the next online game you buy that you really enjoy, if they cut it off in a year you're ok with that?

I guess. It's a year. It is what it is. I don't think I'm entitled to perpetual service from a game. We obviously just have different ways of thinking about this.

Haze · Dec 12, 2019

scare_crow said:
I guess. It's a year. It is what it is. I don't think I'm entitled to perpetual service from a game. We obviously just have different ways of thinking about this.

Perpetual? It was only a little over a year.

scare_crow · Dec 12, 2019

Haze said:
Perpetual? It was only a little over a year.

...ok.

I don't think I'm entitled to years-long service from a game.

Haze · Dec 12, 2019

scare_crow said:
...ok.

I don't think I'm entitled to years-long service from a game.

You don't think you're entitled to a service from a game that you purchased for a realistic amount of time. A first-party game at that. Thats Wild we built different.

scare_crow · Dec 12, 2019

Haze said:
You don't think you're entitled to a service from a game that you purchased for a realistic amount of time. A first-party game at that. Thats Wild we built different.

Haha. A year seems fairly realistic to me if it's not a massive hit. It is what it is.
Have a good one.

SpaceCrystal · Dec 16, 2019

Imitation Of Life said:
I would think the servers go down because the users numbers are too low to justify keeping them up. I guess you can they should keep them up no matter what, but it's a business.

Like LumberPanda mentioned, Sony can easily afford to keep the servers up. They just want people to pay up for no real reason all just so that you can play against someone else online using P2P servers.

It's free money for them.

Imitation Of Life · Dec 16, 2019

SpaceCrystal said:
Like LumberPanda mentioned, Sony can easily afford to keep the servers up. They just want people to pay up for no real reason all just so that you can play against someone else online using P2P servers.

It's free money for them.

Of course it is free money. That still doesn't dispute the reasoning for shutting the severs down.

SpaceCrystal · Dec 17, 2019

Imitation Of Life said:
Of course it is free money. That still doesn't dispute the reasoning for shutting the severs down.

Exactly. Which is why something such as private servers (server lists & community-hosted), or LAN needs to exist within consoles. And besides, PS4, PS5, Xbox One & Xbox Series X are basically PC-lite now.

Posters like Iztok Mravlja, Arulan & Kthulhu have all made great points about it:

Iztok Mravlja said:
This wouldn't bother me if every game had LAN or private server capability independent of online servers.
Because at the very least I'd be able to find a wonky lobby over xkai if I really wanted to.

Arulan said:
This is what happens on closed-platforms. You have no say on anything. The community can't even attempt to keep servers up themselves, or host private games. And there is no alternative to paying for online play because alternative services on the platform would result in meaningful competition.

You don't need tens of thousands of players to keep a game healthy. There are several 20+ year old PC games that continue to have healthy communities because of server lists (instead of matchmaking) and community-hosted servers.

I'd think that showing your customers that any online game has an expiration date when it's no longer popular would be a strong deterrent from investing in them.

Kthulhu said:
I wonder if the partnership with Azure will have any effect on this.

I wish devs would release the source code for their servers when they intend to shut down a game's online services and add a server browser when possible.

Sometimes the community can get stuff like that working without the help, but it can take a long time and the implementation isn't always perfect.

JaseC64 · Dec 17, 2019

Zombegoast said:
Demon's server shutdown still stings. Online Soulsborne is part of the experience. But people have managed to bring the game online through using a DNS.

https://www.yuvi.app/

Right now 8 people on a Tuesday morning are playing.

I know someone tried to bring back the original Xbox live back online but haven't been keeping up on news of it.

Yo what? Gotta look into the demons Souls bit.

Chettlar · Dec 17, 2019

Zombegoast said:
Demon's server shutdown still stings. Online Soulsborne is part of the experience. But people have managed to bring the game online through using a DNS.

https://www.yuvi.app/

Right now 8 people on a Tuesday morning are playing.

I know someone tried to bring back the original Xbox live back online but haven't been keeping up on news of it.

This worries me though, are we for sure this wouldn't get someone banned?

Fahdi · Dec 17, 2019

Fuck Sony for their scummy tactics.
#4theplayers

More like...
#fucktheplayers

TheYanger · Dec 17, 2019

Agent X said:
I had figured "costs" would be the primary reason why Sony would shut down these servers. If the costs are negligible, as you say, then could there be another reason?

It's not like annual sports games, where they would do this to phase out the old games and encourage people to purchase the newer releases. Most of the games that Sony shut down do not have a sequel or other clear replacement.

I never said it costs 0, but it costs VERY little. Certainly a drop in the bucket of PSN sub revenue. IE the payments you're making specifically so that they do just that.

traB-pU-kciP · Jan 7, 2020

F-Pina said:
The consumer rights and laws probably have to be updated to include a specific term of when and how the user should expect the services to be provided.

It will be a matter of time before that happens, but the sooner we, the consumers, start complaining and requesting in our countries, the EU or others, that the companies need to provide a better service, this will continue to be the norm.

EXACTLY.
That's is what I'm trying to achieve since July when first I expressed the same idea in the DRIVECLUB server switch off thread. Unfortunately I have a full time work and after the work I'm studying (university) and also doing the "every day stuff"; So I have been and I'm pretty busy;
DC Server switch-off is almost here (and also I have read that Singstar server are about to be closed too) so it's time to move.

@everyone
I have started (and it's almost complete) to write down a petition (English is not my mothertongue languge) but I need some extra clarification about how Xbox ans Steam/PC are managing the server for older and discontinued games.

By reading different thread, I have find out that XBox Live can allocate resources based on what games is running on the local machine (user Xbox 360) which means that an old game for a discontinued system/game console, could bring the online features/multiplayer back to work.
Are these solution working? I'm not a MS nor Steam user so I really need to understand if this kind of solution already exists and how it works (flawless or feature limited?)
Thanks for the help

Kthulhu · Jan 7, 2020

traB-pU-kciP said:
EXACTLY.
That's is what I'm trying to achieve since July when first I expressed the same idea in the DRIVECLUB server switch off thread. Unfortunately I have a full time work and after the work I'm studying (university) and also doing the "every day stuff"; So I have been and I'm pretty busy;
DC Server switch-off is almost here (and also I have read that Singstar server are about to be closed too) so it's time to move.

@everyone
I have started (and it's almost complete) to write down a petition (English is not my mothertongue languge) but I need some extra clarification about how Xbox ans Steam/PC are managing the server for older and discontinued games.

By reading different thread, I have find out that XBox Live can allocate resources based on what games is running on the local machine (user Xbox 360) which means that an old game for a discontinued system/game console, could bring the online features/multiplayer back to work.
Are these solution working? I'm not a MS nor Steam user so I really need to understand if this kind of solution already exists and how it works (flawless or feature limited?)
Thanks for the help

I don't believe Valve hosts severs for any of the online games on Steam that they don't own. At least it doesn't seem like they offer such a service based on their public documentation.

Valve does offer tools for setting up a server browser and other multiplayer tools to work with the Steam client and overlay though.

Valve also offers to run some things for P2P games to run through Valve's backbone, but all that is a bit over my head from what I'm reading.

TL;DR: Steam doesn't handle dedicated severs at all from what I can tell. It's up to the developers to maintain servers.

Edit: seems like Valve and Microsoft are in a similar situation after reading Microsoft's public documentation.

Microsoft offers to host a developer's game servers but this isn't part of Xbox, it's a part of Microsoft Azure which is Microsoft's cloud platform. Azure isn't exclusive to Xbox, it can be used for any system.

I don't know what you read about the 360 or if maybe something is lost in translation, but the stuff Xbox Live is doing for the 360 is probably just to help with matchmaking in a way that helps a game's server balance their load more efficiently and it's actually running the games.

I imagine Sony is doing something similar to Valve and Microsoft, but it seems the bulk of their documentation is locked behind a developer account which I don't have.

NinjaScooter · Jan 7, 2020

Fahdi said:
Fuck Sony for their scummy tactics.
#4theplayers

More like...
#fucktheplayers

holy shit. Fucking destroyed them.

Madjoki · Jan 8, 2020

Kthulhu said:
I don't believe Valve hosts severs for any of the online games on Steam that they don't own. At least it doesn't seem like they offer such a service based on their public documentation.

Valve does offer tools for setting up a server browser and other multiplayer tools to work with the Steam client and overlay though.

Valve also offers to run some things for P2P games to run through Valve's backbone, but all that is a bit over my head from what I'm reading.

TL;DR: Steam doesn't handle dedicated severs at all from what I can tell. It's up to the developers to maintain servers.

Edit: seems like Valve and Microsoft are in a similar situation after reading Microsoft's public documentation.

Microsoft offers to host a developer's game servers but this isn't part of Xbox, it's a part of Microsoft Azure which is Microsoft's cloud platform. Azure isn't exclusive to Xbox, it can be used for any system.

I don't know what you read about the 360 or if maybe something is lost in translation, but the stuff Xbox Live is doing for the 360 is probably just to help with matchmaking in a way that helps a game's server balance their load more efficiently and it's actually running the games.

I imagine Sony is doing something similar to Valve and Microsoft, but it seems the bulk of their documentation is locked behind a developer account which I don't have.

Valve does offer server hosting. It's in beta and Valve does require you to have other servers too (for now at least).

even with your own servers, traffic will still go through Valve network for anti Ddos purposes

Battlerite is using Valve hosted servers.

F-Pina · Jan 8, 2020

traB-pU-kciP said:
EXACTLY.
That's is what I'm trying to achieve since July when first I expressed the same idea in the DRIVECLUB server switch off thread. Unfortunately I have a full time work and after the work I'm studying (university) and also doing the "every day stuff"; So I have been and I'm pretty busy;
DC Server switch-off is almost here (and also I have read that Singstar server are about to be closed too) so it's time to move.

@everyone
I have started (and it's almost complete) to write down a petition (English is not my mothertongue languge) but I need some extra clarification about how Xbox ans Steam/PC are managing the server for older and discontinued games.

By reading different thread, I have find out that XBox Live can allocate resources based on what games is running on the local machine (user Xbox 360) which means that an old game for a discontinued system/game console, could bring the online features/multiplayer back to work.
Are these solution working? I'm not a MS nor Steam user so I really need to understand if this kind of solution already exists and how it works (flawless or feature limited?)
Thanks for the help

A petition is good, but it is always a lot of effort to get people to see your petition and voting on it. Even more work to follow through with it, so kudos for you for doing this.
Would love to help so, if you need to, I can help you review the doc on my free time.

traB-pU-kciP · Jan 8, 2020

F-Pina said:
A petition is good, but it is always a lot of effort to get people to see your petition and voting on it. Even more work to follow through with it, so kudos for you for doing this.
Would love to help so, if you need to, I can help you review the doc on my free time.

I really, really appreciate your help. Kudos to you!
I hope people will start to understand how important is this battle when they will read the full petition (I hope to have more info about server managment on MS side as soon as possible to complete it).
I will also post the petition on other forums and on the main PSN DC community where every day many people are posting photos and multiplayer request.
Honestly the big impact will (should) arrive through word of mouth between users. How to ignite it is my big concern.

traB-pU-kciP · Jan 8, 2020

Kthulhu said:
I don't believe Valve hosts severs for any of the online games on Steam that they don't own. At least it doesn't seem like they offer such a service based on their public documentation.

Valve does offer tools for setting up a server browser and other multiplayer tools to work with the Steam client and overlay though.

Valve also offers to run some things for P2P games to run through Valve's backbone, but all that is a bit over my head from what I'm reading.

TL;DR: Steam doesn't handle dedicated severs at all from what I can tell. It's up to the developers to maintain servers.

Edit: seems like Valve and Microsoft are in a similar situation after reading Microsoft's public documentation.

Microsoft offers to host a developer's game servers but this isn't part of Xbox, it's a part of Microsoft Azure which is Microsoft's cloud platform. Azure isn't exclusive to Xbox, it can be used for any system.

I don't know what you read about the 360 or if maybe something is lost in translation, but the stuff Xbox Live is doing for the 360 is probably just to help with matchmaking in a way that helps a game's server balance their load more efficiently and it's actually running the games.

I imagine Sony is doing something similar to Valve and Microsoft, but it seems the bulk of their documentation is locked behind a developer account which I don't have.

Madjoki said:
Valve does offer server hosting. It's in beta and Valve does require you to have other servers too (for now at least).

even with your own servers, traffic will still go through Valve network for anti Ddos purposes

Battlerite is using Valve hosted servers.

Thanks to both of you for the info!

Ryengeku · Jan 8, 2020

I have a $40 dollar drink coaster. I like to look at the cover art every time I pick up my tea and say, "Fuck you Sony; Starblood Arena deserved better", every time I take a sip.

Zok310 · Jan 8, 2020

Justin Iacobellis said:
Yet Sony still charges the same price as Microsoft for a yearly subscription.

MS gates free to play behind Live tho......
But OP this is a good call out, Sony should change this practice next gen.

Yinyangfooey · Jan 8, 2020

As someone who's going for the all the Driveclub trophies right now, I know the pain

Sony shouldn't be allowed to make multiplayer games or MP trophies lol

Justin Iacobellis · Jan 8, 2020

Zok310 said:
MS gates free to play behind Live tho......
But OP this is a good call out, Sony should change this practice next gen.

But cloud storage is free with any Xbox Live account, whereas Sony requires an active PlayStation Plus subscription for their equivalent feature.

The argument of which company charges the consumer for which features does not negate the fact that Sony has a growing history of going overboard with server closures.

traB-pU-kciP · Mar 29, 2020

F-Pina said:
A petition is good, but it is always a lot of effort to get people to see your petition and voting on it. Even more work to follow through with it, so kudos for you for doing this.
Would love to help so, if you need to, I can help you review the doc on my free time.

Hi,
I have completed the document for the petition. I'm accepting your help to check it for errors or misleading parts.

I have uploaded it on my google drive; Can I send the link to you via PM?
I do not want to share it with everybody immediately because I want to be sure that it do not contains too much errors and a general feedback on the content is appreciated.
I have spent so many hours in writing and re writing it that my brain is almost burnt.

Thanks in advance.

F-Pina · Mar 29, 2020

traB-pU-kciP said:
Hi,
I have completed the document for the petition. I'm accepting your help to check it for errors or misleading parts.

I have uploaded it on my google drive; Can I send the link to you via PM?
I do not want to share it with everybody immediately because I want to be sure that it do not contains too much errors and a general feedback on the content is appreciated.
I have spent so many hours in writing and re writing it that my brain is almost burnt.

Thanks in advance.

Yeap, send it over by DM.

ThisIsBlitz21 · Mar 29, 2020

Rest in peace Driveclub.

egg · Mar 29, 2020

RIP Driveclub, Gravity Rush 2, TheTomorrowChildren, SingStar servers. Paragon also but that was EPIC.

MoonsaultSlayer · Mar 29, 2020

The only thing that comes to mind is they're worried about another hack and maybe their servers are prone? I have no idea the logistics and technicality of that but it's where my mind goes.

But I do hate it. Especially as a Warhawk fan without so much as a remaster to fill the void.

RobbRivers · Mar 29, 2020

Why didn't they make gravity rush or driveclub unlockables for everyone?

traB-pU-kciP · Mar 29, 2020

egg said:
RIP Driveclub, Gravity Rush 2, TheTomorrowChildren, SingStar servers. Paragon also but that was EPIC.

MoonsaultSlayer said:
The only thing that comes to mind is they're worried about another hack and maybe their servers are prone? I have no idea the logistics and technicality of that but it's where my mind goes.

But I do hate it. Especially as a Warhawk fan without so much as a remaster to fill the void.

RobbRivers said:
Why didn't they make gravity rush or driveclub unlockables for everyone?

I want to open a petition to pushes for new rules for server shut-down and stuff like that.
Are you interested in support the petition?

AGE2019 · Mar 29, 2020

ABIC said:
$60 used to buy you 20-50 hours of playtime.

Now players are demanding and frothing at the mouth if you provide playtime AND online play for "only" 2 years. And the more money you make, the more free stuff they demand!

This is a crazy tough business.

You do realize people pay to play their games online?
Online play is not free.
Sony and MS both charge a subscription for their online service.
2 years is not enough support for the online component of a game. Especially considering the fact they are charging you for it.

element · Mar 29, 2020

EloKa said:
Server cost (ie. barebones or "cloud") aren't the big obstacle in such cases and it's usually more about support demand and personal costs.

PSN is also basically the company called "Gakai" and they are usually only providing enogh "server ressources" to meet the demand of Playstation users. Microsoft on the other hand has the "Azure" network and is usually looking to fill its excess capacities with additional offerings. Those Azure capacities are available anyway so it's better to use them for stuff like older multiplayer games instead of not utilizing them at all because those ressources got paid for already.

Not 100% correct.

PSN is just the auth client (just like XBL, Steam, etc) to the game services managed by each game team. Once a login key is validated, the game connects to the game services typically in the cloud which honestly use whatever the team decides to use (AWS, Azure, Google Cloud).

Having worked on many GaaS projects, cost is broken up into two things, human maintenance and hardware costs. Depending how your product is built, if you have to dedicate resources to maintain service quality, that can start to be a drain as well as those resources typically are needed on other products. Additionally while cloud deployment has greatly lowered the price to manage and deploy, bandwidth adds up.

Even the best applications aren't set it and forget it. Resources either in server, bandwidth or staff does add up and sometimes decisions are made when the cost is too high to the current userbase.

Also PSN and Gaikai aren't the same thing. PSN is a system level auth client service while what was Gaikai is now PlayStation Now.

Chettlar · Mar 29, 2020

element said:
Not 100% correct.

PSN is just the auth client (just like XBL, Steam, etc) to the game services managed by each game team. Once a login key is validated, the game connects to the game services typically in the cloud which honestly use whatever the team decides to use (AWS, Azure, Google Cloud).

Having worked on many GaaS projects, cost is broken up into two things, human maintenance and hardware costs. Depending how your product is built, if you have to dedicate resources to maintain service quality, that can start to be a drain as well as those resources typically are needed on other products. Additionally while cloud deployment has greatly lowered the price to manage and deploy, bandwidth adds up.

Even the best applications aren't set it and forget it. Resources either in server, bandwidth or staff does add up and sometimes decisions are made when the cost is too high to the current userbase.

Also PSN and Gaikai aren't the same thing. PSN is a system level auth client service while what was Gaikai is now PlayStation Now.

Well so that all makes sense, but that doesn't really clarify why Microsoft supports the servers for just about like, all games while Sony does not.

Spark · Mar 29, 2020

The time is ticking for PS3 download servers in general. Time to download all those exclusive PSN games and patches before they're lost forever. The beauty of closed platforms.

element · Mar 29, 2020

Chettlar said:
Well so that all makes sense, but that doesn't really clarify why Microsoft supports the servers for just about like, all games while Sony does not.

Only a guess, but having centralized services vs team designed and managed could be part of it.
Microsoft has support teams to help with the client side services for games. Through shared code, you can save costs in development, deployment or maintenance by using similar codes, have multiple people who know the codebase and able to support via DevOps.
The other scenario is team designed and maintained. So a single team is building a custom solution for their game. While this might fit the exact puzzle piece, resources can become an issue when that same person skills are needed to work on whatever it new.

Garrison · Mar 29, 2020

Spark said:
The time is ticking for PS3 download servers in general. Time to download all those exclusive PSN games and patches before they're lost forever. The beauty of closed platforms.

Shit I got a bunch of PSN games for PS3 that will freaking get lost forever if I don't download them all before this happens. Shame there is people out there saying backwards compatibility isn't a big deal.

Nessus · Mar 29, 2020

Why I prefer online gaming on PC. Even if the publisher takes the servers down there are fan servers.

Chettlar · Mar 30, 2020

Garrison said:
Shit I got a bunch of PSN games for PS3 that will freaking get lost forever if I don't download them all before this happens. Shame there is people out there saying backwards compatibility isn't a big deal.

Ugh, and I really need to find out a new hard drive solution for my PS3, as I don't want it to die on me.

Segafreak · Mar 30, 2020

Zombegoast said:
https://www.yuvi.app/

What does this do? No instructions, no download nothing on this site.

Zombegoast · Mar 30, 2020

Segafreak said:
What does this do? No instructions, no download nothing on this site.

The Archstones

www.thearchstones.com

What you do is change the primary DNS in the link above which allows you to connect to a private server in Demon's Souls.

ABIC · Mar 30, 2020

AGE2019 said:
You do realize people pay to play their games online?
Online play is not free.
Sony and MS both charge a subscription for their online service.
2 years is not enough support for the online component of a game. Especially considering the fact they are charging you for it.

Right, and online play is an optional charge where a player can cancel her online play subscription to align with a game's online play being taken off. If a ride I like in Disneyland is going out of commission, I would just not buy a ticket to Disneyland.

Not saying there aren't good arguments in favor of longer online play, but the one you're using has low power.

Sony and closing down online servers

Enlightened

Nerd Monkeys

Nerd Monkeys