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Sonic Fox comes out as Non-binary!

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hanmik

hanmik

Editor/Writer at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,440
I might be an old geezer.. but as a Dane this confuses me a bit. Because we have a queen and a Royal Family. We learn that we have to address the Royal family as They or Them.... so to me this sounds a bit "formal", but again English is not my main language, and it has been 30 years since I had English in school.

But more power to them if this is what they want, and I like that the world is evolving and starting to embrace all kind of people.
 
PowerBar

PowerBar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
99
The Netherlands
Kyuuji said:
It's hard not to be condescending when people persistently act like it's not something that's already a part of the language or needs changing.

It's already been discussed in the thread numerous times so when you're not taking that on board in favour of making unnecessary suggestions at how we should instead change the language it's hard to take in good faith.
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Ok, I've did a little more research and it seems to me it's a very archaïc part of a language that is just being reintroduced in the language system. Like I said, that will take time to get adjusted to if you've constantly been taught otherwise.
 
Mobyduck

Mobyduck

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,100
Brazil
Social said:
Yeah this, I mean, who cares about this? Why should we know? Why is this important?
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They are an important member of the fighting game scene, as well as the esports scene in general. They have always been outspoken about their sexuality as a way to show support to fellow queer gamers in the community; I recommend searching the #imgay hashtag on Twitter, as well as their recent charity stream.

This serves as both as an update to people that follows these kinds of celebrities, as well as a teaching moment to those that don't understand what is non-binarity.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
PowerBar said:
Ok, I've did a little more research and it seems to me it's a very archaïc part of a language that is just being reintroduced in the language system. Like I said, that will take time to get adjusted to if you've constantly been taught otherwise.
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Naturally, I imagine it sounds awkward if you've not been aware of the concept. It's frequently used in the singular in those circumstances though, in regular everyday speech like with someone you haven't met yet or don't know well. For example "I can't wait to meet them" or "I think they left their hat on the table". The only shift is to using it with someone you have or do - "Hi everyone this is Alex and they'll be joining us for the day".

To give some context as well, the irritation comes in part from the fact that English is one of the few languages that can accommodate for non-binary pronouns so readily. Non-binary people in gendered languages like Spanish have a much harder issue in even finding a common appropriate term to use, let alone try to get others to do the same. So having people come in and throw their hands up over something that's already a part of the language is hard to consistently legitimise.
 
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PowerBar

PowerBar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
99
The Netherlands
Kyuuji said:
Naturally, I imagine it sounds awkward if you've not been aware of the concept. It's frequently used in the singular in those circumstances though, in regular everyday speech like with someone you haven't met yet or don't know well. For example "I can't wait to meet them" or "I think they left their hat on the table". The only shift is to using it with someone you have or do - "Hi everyone this is Alex and they'll be joining us for the day".

To give some context as well, the irritation comes in part from the fact that English is one of the few languages that can accommodate for non-binary pronouns so readily. Non-binary people in gendered languages like Spanish have a much harder issue in even finding a common appropriate term to use, let alone try to get others to do the same. So having people come in and throw their hands up over something that's already a part of the language is hard to consistently legitimise.
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Thank you for the clarification. I'm dutch and I don't think we have a term to use either.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
PowerBar said:
Thank you for the clarification. I'm dutch and I don't think we have a term to use either.
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No problem, and I'd be interested to know what non-binary people in the Netherlands use individually. I've read in discussions here how difficult it is for people that don't want to use gendered pronouns but have no immediate option available to them in their own language.
 
PowerBar

PowerBar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
99
The Netherlands
Kyuuji said:
No problem, and I'd be interested to know what non-binary people in the Netherlands use individually. I've read in discussions here how difficult it is for people that don't want to use gendered pronouns but have no immediate option available to them in their own language.
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Just looked it up and found an article that stated the transcommunity suggested using "hen" in dutch, which translates to "them" in English.
 
CaviarMeths

CaviarMeths

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,655
Western Canada
I admire the patience that some of you have in explaining the existence of the singular they to the 12 more people asking about it on each page over and over.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
SparkleMotion said:
Except his latest twitter post still shows confusion?
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The emphasis on it just seemed slightly patronising considering it's a celebratory moment for them ("being this confused" when it's mostly a large realisation that has aftershocks). It seems they're aware of who they are but haven't yet considered how that affects the identities they've associated with until now. Which is accurate, because non-binary distorts a lot of the rigidity around other things.

I apologise if I overstepped in my commitment to spark motion.
 
Micerider

Micerider

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,188
Rotobit said:
There are unique pronouns too, like zi/zir, but it all depends on the individual and how they want to identify themselves.
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I prefer that honestly, less confusing. Language evolution is something that also implies how the users gets to adopt it in practical use.

Warming news otherwise, great to see public figures be outspoken about this and that will drive change in mentalities for the better.
 
Shpeshal Nick

Shpeshal Nick

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,856
Melbourne, Australia
Kyuuji said:
Worth giving the threadmark a look.
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Yep. Thanks. I just did. Googled too.

Still similarly confused about it in terms of the combination of the terms.

non-binary (not identifying with either gender exclusively) man (a specific gender).

Not trying to be rude or anything. Genuinely confused in terms of how I've interpreted the term non-binary. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
Shpeshal Ed said:
Yep. Thanks. I just did. Googled too.
Still similarly confused about it in terms of the combination of the terms.
non-binary (not identifying with either gender exclusively) man (a specific gender).
Not trying to be rude or anything. Genuinely confused in terms of how I've interpreted the term non-binary. But maybe I'm misunderstanding.
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You actually tap on it here, here's something I wrote earlier that might help:
Kyuuji said:
It can mean many things as it's both an umbrella-term for a number of identities alongside being one that many people choose to identify with specifically. Fundamentally it means that you don't identify as strictly a man or a woman - that it isn't a binary check mark in one of those boxes to you.

Naturally that's a very surface-level view as once you break outside of those two there's an entire spectrum between, but hopefully it starts to give a bit of an idea.
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When you consider it a spectrum between (or outside of, for some) 'man' and 'woman', you can start to understand how people might still identify largely as a man but also have elements to themselves that they can't reconcile within that one box. So non-binary man can mean - and I'm careful to not attribute the specifics to SonicFox - someone that sees themselves as outside the binary but largely still toward that end of the spectrum. This is about what they feel best describes them, so it's perfectly fine for someone to perhaps feel that "non-binary" is too loose for them but also that they aren't as anchored as to be just a 'man'.

It's obviously a very personal thing and there are a lot of identities under the "non-binary" umbrella; as you'd expect when you start to consider the spectrum as a whole rather than the binary points on either end.
 
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Lozange

Lozange

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,115
It's easy to think of Non-binary as a specific gender, or even a group of genders, but what it really is broadly is a declaration of what you aren't. You aren't 100% a man in the traditional sense, and you aren't 100% a woman. When viewed from that lense, the term non binary suddenly gets a lot more broad, and can encompass any number of identities.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
Shifting your mindset from viewing gender as two checkboxes to a slider with 'man' or 'woman' on either end helps a lot with starting to understand. It's important to note this doesn't reflect agender people who can also be non-binary (no spectrum, no sense of gender) but it's a strong stepping stone to initially understanding more about gender identity when you're only used to the binary lens.
 

Kismet

Banned
Nov 9, 2017
1,432
I have no idea who this person is, but I'm always happy when someone can be themselves.
 
gazoinks

gazoinks

Member
Jul 9, 2019
3,230
SonicFox seems like such a genuinely good person. Good for them.

Also, appreciation to the people in this thread with more patience than I have to explain non-binary gender and anti-prescriptivism.
 
Spyware

Spyware

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,455
Sweden
PowerBar said:
Just looked it up and found an article that stated the transcommunity suggested using "hen" in dutch, which translates to "them" in English.
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That is the word we use in Sweden. We have han/hon/hen. Hen would be our way to say the singular they.

(Hen is still a hot topic here because different oppressive groups scream about it meaning chicken and that makes it silly and bad... but they apparently have no issues with the fact that our word for children is "barn". And then we have the people that won't even accept something non-binary at all. Ugh.)
 
zon

zon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,432
What's the difference between a non-binary man and a man? Or a non-binary man and being non-binary? I'll admit I have a hard time to understand the differences.
 
aerobinson

aerobinson

Alt Account
Banned
Jun 6, 2019
157
To combat the pedantic language jerks (well, one I've seen so far that's already been temp-banned): Hey, English dork here! Language evolves just like people. Language is not static. Yes, "they" and "them" were once exclusively used to indicate plural people or objects. That is no longer the sole usage of these words. That's all. Move on, eh?
 
WascallyWabbit

WascallyWabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,540
Kyuuji said:
It means they're comfortable with using either. It might be that they want to explore using non-gendered pronouns to see if it's something that resonates with them - or that they sincerely don't mind either way. If they're coming to all of this later in life having been AMAB (assigned male at birth) then it might be they feel comfortable with he/his as it's familiar and what people close to them have always used.

This is obviously speculation when it comes to SonicFox themselves, but hopefully gives some insight into why two sets of pronouns can be given in the wider context of non-binary people.

I might choose to use they/them for them - as I have in this post - to try and both help normalise it in discussions and recognise that element of their identity.
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Cool, thanks for the explanation
 

FormatCompatible

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,071
SparkleMotion said:
This post is unnecessary hostile. This concept is still new to a lot of people, and having the attitude of "get fucked" because they don't understand helps no one.
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I was not talking about people who are actually properly asking questions and engaging, I'm was talking about garbage like this:
Ceadeus said:
Sure but it's far from being as known as in the United States. The only time I ever read about this subject is on the internet. I mean I've been from east to west all across Canada and never met ANYONE asking to be called it they or them. Can we still call them by their name? Where does this come from? They is plural, how ...? He's more than one person? Come on, bear with me I simply don't get it. I'm open minded, I wouldn't care calling him they, but then why this decision? Is it something to make the person more special or something? Pronoun thing is like super new. I even saw someone on the internet wanted to be called a Panda. Like very serious about it. Do these persons simply don't believe in science and human biology anymore?

For me, it hits me the same way as someone who think the planet is flat and space screenshots are all CGI! Omg..
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Ceadeus said:
Never ever saw one. Most of my friends are gay, black, seen so much and been through so much. I work with a woman that has changed her name 3 time and became a man. But never seen one single person who asked me or anyone to be called them it they cat or dog. Never. I'm puzzled af and why, on earth, would anyone care about this personal, singular individuals thinking of asking all your surrounding this. Why? Ain't there so many more community involved things you could do, help people. The world is struggling, literally on fire and no one is talking about it, main media's does not cover it. But here, the world is shaking when a known single person is asking for people, to be called as a different pronoun.
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So excuse me if I felt a bit frustrated having to go into the thread and read shit like that.
 
Poltergust

Poltergust

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,884
Orlando, FL
Platy said:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo

That means that the "i am gay and the best dragon ball player" tweet is fully a lie now =/

But that tweet is weird in the sense it kinda contradicts the "non binary man" one
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I don't think it's a lie if what they felt at the time of tweeting that was genuine.

If they went through some introspection later on and came out to consider themselves differently, that doesn't mean that their previous feelings were invalid.

That said, I guess being "gay" is no longer an accurate descriptor for them (I think?), but that's still fine.

(Incidentally, as I was typing this post I immediately went to using he/him pronouns before doubling back. I need to be more proactive in this regard.)
 
Barrel Cannon

Barrel Cannon

It's Pronounced "Aerith"
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,358
TheAbsolution said:
Because you could read this thread or look it up on the internet that's at your fingertips or watch videos on the subject? Instead of just throwing your hands up and saying welp, this is some new age shit, I'll never understand it. What you said was dismissive and tbh, feels like you don't want to do the bare minimum to educate yourself. It's not that difficult.
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Honestly I don't trust looking up stuff on the internet for more sensitive topics sometimes because of just the state of blatant hate there is(example I typed the word non binary on youtube just now and it was followed by the word "cringe". the fact that it's a suggested word just shows the toxic mindset a lot of people have). I do like Era for that because although it can be hostile at times it's focus on promoting a welcoming environment is helpful. Heck, I didn't even know identifying as non-binary was something people identify as until this thread and that OT that was linked was helpful(and it also taught me the spelling of cisgendered, which I didn't know was a label till recently as well).

Peltz said:
This is not grammatically correct when referring to an individual though.

I have no problem not referring to somone as "he/she" or "him/her." But "they" implies plural.

See the following:


You wouldn't say, for example "The object belongs to them." when referring to a non-binary individual. The English language requires the word "him," "her," or "it" for an individual.
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Also Peltz, I know you are banned for now and I know you weren't trying to troll so I'm a still reply to this. Words and grammar can and do change over time. The way we label gender is going to change as well in the English language(as it should). It's just a matter of time imo.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,614
Barrel Cannon said:
Also Peltz, I know you are banned for now and I know you weren't trying to troll so I'm a still reply to this. Words and grammar can and do change over time. The way we label gender is going to change as well in the English language(as it should). It's just a matter of time imo.
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They were lecturing on a language that already frequently uses they in the singular. How patronising do you think it is to have someone try to lecture you on your own language in an effort to invalidate your own existence. There's a reason they felt a need to try and be a pedant and pull reams of nonsense out of their ass and it's not an undying love for a language they're wholly ignorant of.
 
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