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stinkyguy666

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,147


This is an excellent video that I highly recommend watching if you're interested in learning some backstory on how this game turned out the way it did.

The long and short of it is basically that BigRedButton had spent months developing the game with PC in mind, only to learn that SEGA & Nintendo entered an exclusivity deal meaning their game would now become a Wii U exclusive. This news of the game now being Wii U exclusive basically forced BRB to radically overhaul all the work they had done up to that point.
 
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Theswweet

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,464
California
Yeah, honestly I feel pretty bad for BigRedButton these days. It's a miracle the game isn't even worse considering everything the project went through...
 

MykonosFan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
844
Watched it last night before bed. Really neat that he got quite a few quotes from a couple devs who worked on the game. The more that comes out, the more its apparent that SEGA made their own bed with this title. Hard not to feel sympathetic for BRB as details continue to trickle out over the years.
 
Nov 23, 2017
4,302
While I think this is a good video and sub to this creator I can't help but be a little turned off by how hyberbolic the title and thumbnail are. It's like he's gotta play follow the leader of fallout 76 outrage coverage or something.
 

Com_Raven

Brand Manager
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,103
Europa
Small consolation of course, but they will forever be able to say that they managed to get CryEngine 3 running on the WiiU, which it was never supposed to do.
 

ASaiyan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,228
Now this is the breakdown I've always wanted to see.
The long and short of it is basically that BigRedButton were not at all prepared for the game to be a Wii U exclusive after developing the game with PC in mind and this news forced them to radically overhaul all the work they had done up to that point.
So that's what it was. Huh.
 

RockmanBN

Visited by Knack - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
28,055
Cornfields
Having designed the game for current gen and having to go back one with Wii U must have been a pain. Also Sega having more presence on the project as time went by must have scewed up morale.

Oh what I'd give to see what happeded in the 4 years between Lost World and Forces.
 
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stinkyguy666

stinkyguy666

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,147
Hard not to feel sympathetic for BRB as details continue to trickle out over the years.

yep.

Hearing that Bob Rafei received hate-mail from angry gamers is so disheartening to me. I've been a fan of his work since Crash Bandicoot Warped and I know he's a really talented guy. For Chris Senn to have to experience development hell with this franchise yet again sucks, it's like he can't catch a break.
 

FutureLarking

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
787
Having designed the game for current gen and having to go back one with Wii U must have been a pain. Also Sega having more presence on the project as time went by must have scewed up morale.

Oh what I'd give to see what happeded in the 4 years between Lost World and Forces.

Building your game on CryEngine, then being told it's a Wii U exlcusive and CryEngine doesn't support Wii U is a hell of a pain for sure :P
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
Nintendo fucked up Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom
 

Caz

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,055
Canada
While I think this is a good video and sub to this creator I can't help but be a little turned off by how hyberbolic the title and thumbnail are. It's like he's gotta play follow the leader of fallout 76 outrage coverage or something.
Speaking as a YouTuber, the site's garbage algorithms are the main reason why you're seeing this clickbait crap (referring to the thumbnail/title) since more people click on videos with those thumbnails. I try to avoid that when it comes to the template I use for my channel but I know it would be easier and beneficial to go with the crowd on this one because the algorithms are really that bad.
 

Ithil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,434
The twitch stream of this game after release seeing how hard they could break it remains one of the funniest times I've had in years.
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,785
How do you get offered to make a Sonic title from Sega and immediately think it's not going to be released on a Nintendo platform even if you think it'll be a multiplatform game?
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
Can't wait to watch this. From an outsider's perspective this always looked like such a bizarre project so I am curious how one thing led to another.
 

Coconico

Member
Oct 25, 2017
332
Miami
While I think this is a good video and sub to this creator I can't help but be a little turned off by how hyberbolic the title and thumbnail are. It's like he's gotta play follow the leader of fallout 76 outrage coverage or something.

That's just how the game is played on the platform. Even if the content itself is great, it rarely gets a chance to speak for itself unless it stokes initial interest through the headline/icon. That's what gets the click, so it's arguably the most important driving force for any video.

I know this first hand from a video I made on The Terrible Uncharted Movie Sony Almost Made sits with thousands of views versus an Uncharted video of similar length and content with a way less inflammatory headline (Uncharted 4: Was it Worth It?) which barely cracked a thousand views.
 

Sub Boss

Banned
Nov 14, 2017
13,441
A lot of things were horrible besides technical issues, the writting, characters, art, im not sure it would have turned out any special regardless
Though it sucks that SEGA are that incompetent with this series
 
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Joltik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,767
Nintendo fucked up Sonic 06 and Sonic Boom
What does Nintendo have anything to do with Sonic 06? And anyway this is more of a Sega thing where there was a lack of communication/sudden change of plans on where the game was being developed for in the first place. The further meddling and rushing BRB so the game would be a holiday release didn't help either.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
What does Nintendo have anything to do with Sonic 06? And anyway this is more of a Sega thing where there was a lack of communication/sudden change of plans on where the game was being developed for in the first place. The further meddling and rushing BRB so the game would be a holiday release didn't help either.
The wii wasnt an HD console so they to split the team to make sonic and the secret rings.
 

Dwebble

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,640
I've got to be honest... I don't think their original vision for the game sounded particularly interesting either. Seems like a misbegotten project top to bottom.
 

Listai

50¢ - "This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,686
I know I'm the worst but I didn't get past his immaculate neckbeard. He's practically hairless from the chin upwards.
 
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stinkyguy666

stinkyguy666

Member
Nov 4, 2017
1,147
I know I'm the worst but I didn't get past his immaculate neckbeard. He's practically hairless from the chin upwards.
yeah... it's a style I really don't understand and I'll never get why the whole "full beard with shaved stache" thing is such a popular style in male nerd culture


anyways i'll stop nitpicking this poor guy's facial hair now ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Oct 29, 2017
4,721
I've got to be honest... I don't think their original vision for the game sounded particularly interesting either. Seems like a misbegotten project top to bottom.

Agreed. The game was doomed from the outset. The foundation was bad and the team weren't experienced enough. Sonic Boom's problems go so much further than its technical shortcomings.
 

Gamer @ Heart

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,721
This video was twice as long as it needed to be. There are only 2 key points:

Suprise Wii U exclusive after pre production assumed PS4/PC which lead to the use of CryEngine which was not supported officially and they struggled to make work instead of changing engines.

Performance issues aside, they still designed a blegh game. Technical issues a super tight deadline didn't help, but there is no evidence that it would have been a better game outside of selling better by not being trapped on a dead platform.
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,653
How do you get offered to make a Sonic title from Sega and immediately think it's not going to be released on a Nintendo platform even if you think it'll be a multiplatform game?

Bingo.

Even Sega admitted Sonic sells most on Nintendo hardware, so this was a red flag to begin with. And not to mention it hardly seems realistic to make a Sonic game of all things built for top-end hardware, partifularly for hardware that wouldn't even be out for years later (PS4 and XBO in this case). What Sonic game is even made so PC-specific like this video points it to being here? It's a really baffling choice.

Here's what they should have done:

- Targeted Wii U from the start. It was revealed at E3 2011 (the year Sega went to BRB) so they had plenty of advance notice.
- Built the game with PS360 hardware in mind since they could only go up from there on Wii U (or at least need FAR less changes).
- Used Unreal Engine 3 if they wanted a fancy engine.

Or if we just go back to when the Wii U deal happened:

- Rebuild the game from scratch. Scrap Cry Engine 3 since you knew from the start it wouldn't run on it.
- Again use Unreal Engine 3 if you wanted a fancy engine since Wii U officially supported this. Alternatively, use Unity. Or better, your own engine.
- Sega should've given them all the time and freedom to remake the game for Wii U without a deadline until they had a fair idea of when it'd be done.
- Not tie-in with the show. Or better, build the show around the game, not the other way around (you'd think this would've been obvious).

Or a 3rd, though very unlikely scenario:

- Take a few extra years and make it a Switch-exclusive.

This way they wouldn't have had to throw out the progress they made and still made it a Nintendo-exclusive. This would've been asking a lot since the NX wasn't even announced until four months after release. But the state of the game should've told Sega to just lay low and give the team far extra time to get things working. But the 2nd option should've sufficed and then they could've maybe made it even closer to the original vision in a beefed up Switch port (or sequel!) today, who knows.

Big Red Button is to blame for not planning things right. Sega are to blame for not giving BRB the time and freedom to make the game they wanted to despite the setbacks. The deal was business (and IMO, a good one for reasons I said above). You adjust to changes. Sega did not do that, they forced BRB to slap together whatever they could with glue and ship it out no matter what. And look where it led them and BRB as a result.
 

Cow Mengde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,785
Oh wow, yeah, I just realized it was announced in 2011 and came out 2014. They had AT LEAST 3 years to make this.

Honestly, looking at the company's state before scoring this deal, they really weren't doing anything impressive. Couldn't get a single project going. I doubt the game would be very good even if it was made for Wii U ground up.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
Games that turn out as huge messes by talented developers are usually a fascinating look into mismanagament, crunch culture, unrealistic deadlines, switches in game direction at the last moment and such, and it's always great to find out what exactly went wrong with a game that could have definitely been good. Having to re-adapt a CryEngine 3 game built for PC to the Wii U that doesn't support said engine... yikes. There's a lot of horror show productions out there but usually, when there's such a mess, the game gets canned somewhere along the lines. See that The Dark Knight game for example. But when they do come out, this is the almost unavoidable result.
 

RestEerie

Banned
Aug 20, 2018
13,618
The worst is they licensed the cryengine for the pc version in mind....but when the switcheroo happened, cryengine isnt even officially supprted on the wii u and they have to workaround it.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
I'm just gonna point out that the Sonic Boom TV show is widely regarded as excellent but it always gets overshadowed by the game.
 

kakistocrats

Member
Oct 29, 2017
101
Why does this YouTube video have space for commercial breaks in it? Do this guy's videos air on TV somewhere? Why are they edited like this?
 

elektrixx

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,923
It's Eric Pope!

I liked that. I want to check out another one from this series.

[edit] Oh, it's the first one!
 
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Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,571
Those poor devs man. "Oh this looks pretty cool, nice graphics too, btw, this is a WII U exclusive."


BRB:Ok but...
TmVKIVO.gif
 

EarthPainting

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,878
Town adjacent to Silent Hill
How do you get offered to make a Sonic title from Sega and immediately think it's not going to be released on a Nintendo platform even if you think it'll be a multiplatform game?
That's kind of where I'm at too. Sonic's target audience would have made me target a multiplatform release with PS360 in mind at the forefront. Even if the exclusivity contract made you lose out on that massive install base, porting from PS360 to WiiU would have been a whole lot smoother as well. Targeting PC and next gen systems in 2011 doesn't strike as very good business sense for something that'll mainly sell to kids. Then again, neither does WiiU exclusivity, yet here we are.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
How do you get offered to make a Sonic title from Sega and immediately think it's not going to be released on a Nintendo platform even if you think it'll be a multiplatform game?
For the whole of last gen there were HD Sonic titles on Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, whereas Wii got it's own line of games. Especially as next gen was being targeted I assume there were immediate talks of another developer making a side game for weaker hardware. It makes sense when you realize SEGA had literally nothing ready for the western releases of Xbox One and PlayStation 4 when they previously have never missed hardware launches. Not even with add-ons like Kinect or weird crap like N-Gage.

It is worth noting that SEGA went through probably their most dire restructuring ever during this period, so I assume there was a great deal of chaos in shifting projects around and funds suddenly being lost. Hell, I am certain this huge Sonic deal with Nintendo was linked to the Yakuza 1 & 2 HD Wii U port, Bayonetta 2 and maybe even Shin Megami Tensei V.
 

SirFritz

Member
Jan 22, 2018
2,093
Nintendo got ripped off with that 3 game deal too imo. Sonic boom, lost forces and a mario and sonic game that probably would have came out on wii u anyway.
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
Nintendo got ripped off with that 3 game deal too imo. Sonic boom, lost forces and a mario and sonic game that probably would have came out on wii u anyway.
Deals like that are always deeper than they seem. As I said in a post above, I am certain Yakuza 1&2 HD Wii U's port and Bayonetta 2 were part of that. Plus it just secures a lot of good will between the companies.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,322
makes sense it was conceived as a more standard action platformer than a 'sonic game'. seems like they were really stuck with sticking a circle into a square peg there
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
- Take a few extra years and make it a Switch-exclusive.
Aside from all the other quite ridiculous arm-chair developer stuff, this is just baffling. You can't just add tens of millions of budget to a game like this where you can't be sure the game is worth such a huge extra investment, not to mention the fact that it was at point where as a developer you wouldn't have enough to go on to even make that decision for a game already in *production* (meaning all staff working on it, and you can't just go back to a more focused planning and technical testing mode unless you you can shift most of the production staff to other projects, while the team works out the new platform tools).
 

Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
I have that sonic build-a-bear in the background with the very same "world series astros" shirt on it, weird coincidence.
 

Marmoka

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,122
To be honest, I don't think this would have been a great game if it came out for PC or One/PS4. The art was horrible, the plot too, and the gameplay concept sucked.

Even if it had better graphics, and less bugs, the game would still be a mediocre Sonic game.
 

ckareset

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Feb 2, 2018
4,977
Nintendo got ripped off with that 3 game deal too imo. Sonic boom, lost forces and a mario and sonic game that probably would have came out on wii u anyway.
Wii u curse
To be honest, I don't think this would have been a great game if it came out for PC or One/PS4. The art was horrible, the plot too, and the gameplay concept sucked.

Even if it had better graphics, and less bugs, the game would still be a mediocre Sonic game.
All of those things were affected by Sega meddling
 

justiceiro

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
6,664
Man, I just wanted to see the devs face when they were told about the plattaform..

Weird that crytek keep insisting that they supported the wiiu at the time, yet...

But I have to say that I really surprised that they are still around after so many set backs. Godspeed