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Sonic 3 & Knuckles vs Sonic Mania Plus: Which one is the best Classic Sonic game? [Stealth Sonic Mania praise thread]
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
I'm not the biggest boss fan in the world, but I think the minibosses were fine difficulty wise. They were usually simple and took less hits to defeat than the stage boss.
Or maybe I thought it was cool as a kid an and I'm just used to them now. Whatever.
I'm talking about S3&K here. I've not yet played Mania 300+ times like that.
Mania ranks lower for me due to the collision/crush physics, if nothing else.
Still a fantastic game though.
Still a fantastic game though.
Sonic 3 and Knuckles is hard to beat when it had entirely original zones and a better sense of progression (for obvious reasons). That said, Mania's level design improves on it in a variety of areas by capitalising on the best aspects of Classic Sonic. It does have a couple of iffy bosses - namely Oil Ocean's - and I feel there are a few too many unforgiving moments where it is all too easy to get crushed (which as far as I remember, was a rarity in S3&K), but most of the time it boasts fantastic creativity throughout with its gameplay, music and visual design. I haven't played S3&K for a few years now, so I'd have to go back again to be sure about which one I personally enjoy the most. Either way, they are both incredible games and two of my absolute favourites.
I have a soft spot for it out of nostalgia, but not really. It had some great ideas let down by poor level design, repetitive (and at times garish) visuals and a dodgy frame rate.
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I went and played the classics after Mania having never properly sat down to complete them and while 3 was good, it wasn't Mania to me. 1 and 2 aren't near and seem more like good concepts for what 3 and Mania ended up being.
Oil Ocean's boss was fine and they fixed the issues with it in the free update.
The spider boss where its vulnerable state makes no sense and Heavy Rider are bigger issues. The final boss is very weak. The midboss of Chemical Plant is terrible. And while Mean Bean Machine is neat reference, it's not a good boss once the novelty wears off.
I'm still going to be that one sucker who vouches for the CW remake of the original sonic game instead of something like 2 or mania. I just have a much more fun time replaying 1 than going through either of the other 2 again.
With the inclusion of Ray the Squirrel, Sonic Mania Plus is the best Sonic game to date in my opinion. I don't even rate Sonic 3 and Knuckles that highly anyway - I prefer vanilla Sonic 3. Short and sweet - it's curious that despite how amazing Sonic Mania was, the team couldn't improve Hydrocity Zone from what was delivered in the Sonic 3.
S3&K for me. I absolutely adore Mania, it's such a great game in so many areas that as a classic Sonic fan it appeals to everything I love about Mega Drive-era Sonic. The only reasons S3&K tops the poll for me are the fact that I played it religiously as a kid and the inclusion of Ray and Mighty do nothing for me, except a couple of slightly different game mechanics.
Source: http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3_Limited_Edition
Prototype 1: http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3C_(prototype_0408)
Prototype 2: http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3C_(prototype_0517)
drx is a well-known dumper of prototypes.
I'm well aware that S3&K was initially designed as one game while early in development. It appears that Sega intended to release it as such after the fact, too.
I still think it's Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Sonic Mania wasn't bad by any means but there was something about it that just left more to be desired. Also it was thanks to that game that I realized how bad sonic gameplay can be. You want to go fast but you can't since you'll get hit or fall down. I'm not sure if this is just a Mania issue or if it was present in the older games as well. I'm pretty sure it wasn't because when I played Sonic 2, I rarely encountered getting hit or falling down by weird glitches.
Thus S3&Knuckles > Sonic 2 > Sonic Mania > Sonic 1 > Sonic 4 IMO.
Thus S3&Knuckles > Sonic 2 > Sonic Mania > Sonic 1 > Sonic 4 IMO.
Yeah, if I actually stop and try and remember a few more Final Mecha Sonic, MGZ2 and SPZ1 come to mind, but other than that the bosses feel like they're just... there?
I get the sense that they wanted to have more bosses and that just led to the fights being pretty samey and uneventful outside of a couple of decent ideas. Mania's got the same issue honestly, but probably worse bosses overall with less obvious vulnerabilities.
I dunno about variety, most of the ones I can remember are "avoid attack, boss hovers for a few seconds, repeat single attack pattern." Like I said there's a couple notable ones, but nothing about them really stands out to me.
I don't think 1 and 2 are really any better in that regard, but there's fewer of them so it's less noticeable.
Man, I've seen some bad takes in my day but this is up there as one of the worst.
I tend to like Sonic games. It's terrible. Beautiful art and music though.
Not really. It's a good example of someone having a neat idea but didn't think of how it would affect gameplay. The rubberband mechanic means you're fighting the physics most of the time and characters are difficult to control. Because of that, they placed fewer enemies in levels. Levels are also substantially more vertically-oriented than typical Sonic levels and feel fairly barren.
With that said, it's a colorful game with great music. I personally have a soft spot for it and I lump it in with Sonic 1/2/CD/3&K/Mania
The telegraphing on the boss battles in Sonic Mania is appalling, and so many bosses are designed to make you lose any dropped rings. The bosses completely ruined Mania for me, and are the reason I stopped playing.
The Sonic 3 special stages are miserable to play. I completed them all on Sonic Jam and it was mostly a nightmarish memory maze.
I really want to love Mania but the bosses and special stages kill it for me, not to mention recycled levels and spurious level design.
The Sonic 3 special stages are miserable to play. I completed them all on Sonic Jam and it was mostly a nightmarish memory maze.
I really want to love Mania but the bosses and special stages kill it for me, not to mention recycled levels and spurious level design.
S&K3 for me: more polished and cohesive game overall.
Mania is fantastic and the best attempt since S&K, but it has some flaws in boss design and other quirks (like using spheres as the bonus stages, which are too slow and kind of break the pace of the game imho).
Mania is fantastic and the best attempt since S&K, but it has some flaws in boss design and other quirks (like using spheres as the bonus stages, which are too slow and kind of break the pace of the game imho).
What do I need to do to make the PS+ version a Plus version? I looked for a bit and I'm not sure if by buying the Encore dlc is enough.
Sonic Mania is the best, but it's arguably an unfair contest because that game is half "greatest hits of Sonic" in the first place.
S3&K is too bloated for its own good, and there's not much of a difficulty curve.
Of the original Genesis games, the first is my favorite.
S3&K is too bloated for its own good, and there's not much of a difficulty curve.
Of the original Genesis games, the first is my favorite.
S3&K is the more cohesive experience with its level transitions, and it has the better thematic climax. But Mania is the best Sonic game of all time. It has no bad zones and several of them are arguably the series' best. All the little touches like the drop dash, widescreen presentation, and fluid sprite animations also boost it up. It's one of my favorite games of all time, just a nonstop IV drip of concentrated fun from beginning to end.
Its Mania, then Sonic 2.
I was thinking the other day about how much better the 2D sonic games are thanks to widescreen. One of the few 16-bit games that gets a legitimately great upgrade with the new screen.
I was thinking the other day about how much better the 2D sonic games are thanks to widescreen. One of the few 16-bit games that gets a legitimately great upgrade with the new screen.
I prefer Sonic 3 & Knuckles. I think the levels in Mania start to drag a bit, especially in the back half. Only Sandopolis and Carnival Night really overstay their welcome in Sonic 3 imo.
That said Mania is an excellent game and absolutely worthy of being in the same conversation as the Genesis series. I'd probably put it just behind S3&K.
That said Mania is an excellent game and absolutely worthy of being in the same conversation as the Genesis series. I'd probably put it just behind S3&K.
I've been playing and replaying the Sonic 1, 2, 3, & K my whole life. I love those games. Sonic 1 is one of my earliest gaming memories.
Mania is better than all of them.
Mania is better than all of them.
Mania is probably the best game by most measures, but the overall feeling that Sonic 2 conveys makes it my personal favourite. Something kicks in for me during the ascension to the Death Egg; there's an actual sense of menace to the final bosses, and a feeling of triumph in the ending, despite the "story" being no more than the same sort of faint silly window dressing you see across the rest of the series. I actually think it comes down to the straightforwardness of the presentation and gameplay, in conjunction with the series-best soundtrack. No distractions, it's just the core Sonic concept done really, really well.
No it really isn't
I mean, Sonic 2 is on the list so CD isn't the worst ;)
SoNiC wAs NeVeR gOoD
I adore Mania to death, but I think I have to give it to S3&K still. The remade stages are strong, but those are the only ones I usually go out of my way to play as opposed to the newly made ones.
For those of you lamenting that there isn't a widescreen Sonic 3&K port, do I have news for you. Well, it was news a month ago, at least.
You'll need the Steam version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles since it pulls assets from there, but if you want a widescreen PC native version of the game, well... there it is. Download link in the description of the video.
You'll need the Steam version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles since it pulls assets from there, but if you want a widescreen PC native version of the game, well... there it is. Download link in the description of the video.
Encore DLC is the Plus version yeah, it contains the Encore mode and the two new playable characters. The encore mode is a slighly hard mode version of the game with different color palettes on the stages, but the level layout is almost the same. The new special stages are also brutal.
The Plus upgrades on the main game (transition for all stages, a new/revised boss) came for free with a patch.
This thread made me think a lot about S3&K, and I think you might be right.
You might be right about that. It's hard to find a single fault in the game. Just a joy to play throughout. Mania on the other hand I found slightly derivative mostly due to its stage recycling. I hope the team gets to create all-new stages for the next entry if it happens, as I found those to be the best.
I played it for the first time a couple years back. I can confirm that no, it is not.
That said, it's still worth a playthrough. It's got its charm(y).
Sometimes I feel like Mania being the best is a slight cop out, I mean it took over two decades to finally get a direct style of sequel that matches up to 3&K, it leverages the past including sizeable chunks of 3&K in the process and is otherwise content with just being more solid Sonic action and recreating previous beats.
....yet it's absolutely the best, that character selection, that encore mode, that TEE LOPES, THAT DROP DASH
Really an example of how iterative design playing the greatest hits can still work tremendously well, it's like NSMBU if NSMBU actually had bangin' music.
....yet it's absolutely the best, that character selection, that encore mode, that TEE LOPES, THAT DROP DASH
Really an example of how iterative design playing the greatest hits can still work tremendously well, it's like NSMBU if NSMBU actually had bangin' music.
Sonic mania gets knocked down because way too much of it is derivative. Give me a 100% original game and we'll talk.
Honestly if Mania didn't drop the ball with Titanic Monarch I would be hard pressed to argue that it isn't the best. Even after having played through the game multiple times and learning the layouts, I can't say they are particularly fun levels.
Sonic mania is better, but it doesnt beat the transition from lava reef to sky sanctuary and death egg.
Best part of s3k is when knuckles punches a boulder onto you, and the sequence towards robotnik down the lava. The boss there is also epic. And then sky sanctuary
Final boss is a lot more epic then sonic mania also
Basically overall sonic mania is the better game, but s3k has a much more epic ending.
Best part of s3k is when knuckles punches a boulder onto you, and the sequence towards robotnik down the lava. The boss there is also epic. And then sky sanctuary
Final boss is a lot more epic then sonic mania also
Basically overall sonic mania is the better game, but s3k has a much more epic ending.
I'm not too hot on Titanic Monarch myself, thing is though I've never really liked the final zones in any Sonic game including Death Egg.
So for me TM manages to be the best of a middling bunch.
