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Sonic 3 & Knuckles vs Sonic Mania Plus: Which one is the best Classic Sonic game? [Stealth Sonic Mania praise thread]
- Thread starter Lant_War
- Start date
To build a bit more off of this, Angel Island often gets shifted when it comes to talk of good first Sonic levels, but the shift from tropical paradise to the place ravaged with fire and then being bombed on all has a certain feel to it which I find appealing. And of course, the end of Sonic & Knuckles from Lava Reef to Doomsday just has some amazing build-up and interconnected final-ness that gives both a certain feeling and coherence naturally told in the levels which I think is also unmatched in the series. There's a great build-up and execution between Lava Reef, Hidden Palace, Sky Sanctuary, Death Egg & Doomsday which I honestly don't think the series has ever been able to match, and I don't think Mania matches it either, but it completely exemplifies the best parts of Sonic 3 & Knuckles world building and storytelling through level design and subtle details included with a certain atmosphere it emits.
However, Mania does have a benefit that some of its best stages are among the best in the series(though not all are winners I feel), I do think it gets points for how many ideas is on display. Sonic 3 & Knuckles has a few week points in levels and sections as well, but I do think there's a charm to how it builds off it's stage-to-stage mechanics. Mania has more and overall I prefer it, but it could also be argued it in some ways has too many mechanics in each level. I don't really hold that as a negative, but sometimes it does feel like there's a lot going on in each stage.
Anyways, Mania had to balance being the team's first original game with all of them together while also being sorta' a love letter to the classic series and having mostly revisited stages. I think it's very, very good for what it is. Though I hope the team gets an opportunity and takes it to make an original game with it's own story, one thing I am under the impression of is they've probably learned a few things from Mania, and if allowed creative freedom to just do their own original levels and story, it could end up being a top tier Sonic game unquestionably. And some of what S3&K has over Mania I think comes to its world building, but Mania was always made to be a game of returning stages so it'd obviously have a harder time than a game which is set in one location (though admittedly that location is stretched a bit with what feasibly is there at times, but whatever level variety).
I remember Sonic 3 & Knuckles very fondly. Stacking the cartridges together resulted in such a massive game!
I loved the Sonic & Knuckles stack cartridge system so much as a child. As soon as the S&K game was released, I remember harassing my parents for them to buy it to me. I also remember the game costed them around $70 when they finally bought it. New Genesis games were expensive at the time. Needless to say, my dad didn't like video games very much :p
I loved the Sonic & Knuckles stack cartridge system so much as a child. As soon as the S&K game was released, I remember harassing my parents for them to buy it to me. I also remember the game costed them around $70 when they finally bought it. New Genesis games were expensive at the time. Needless to say, my dad didn't like video games very much :p
Super tough. Mania is almost a perfect package. Even while retreading actual Zones, each one does do enough to feel different and new. I still feel like S3K has better level design. Not so much that I think it's a problem though. Seriously, it's such a hard choice. But I have utmost confidence if Mania team did a fully original game, they could absolutely edge out S3K as my favorite Sonic game.
It's Sonic 3&K easy, but most people haven't experienced that game (or there would be more outcry for how few platforms it's available on)
But Mania Plus is really really good, probably above all the others despite its weaknesses (boss fights, lots of borrowed content)
But Mania Plus is really really good, probably above all the others despite its weaknesses (boss fights, lots of borrowed content)
I love Sonic 2 and 3Knucles to death but Mania is the best Sonic game ever made. This game is perfection.
This is so bad and out of the character. No please.
This is so bad and out of the character. No please.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is good but also damn is it overrated to the extreme, that game has so many terrible levels that last way longer than they need to. Granted the stand out levels are some of the best in the series but for every Sky Sanctuary there's a Marble Garden.
One game has Doomsday Zone we found by accident using the level select cheat code...and the other game doesn't. I've made up my mind
I replayed Sonic 3 & Knuckles like 5 times back to back recently.
I love Mania a lot, I'm sure it would've toppled S3&K if they had let Taxman, Stealth and crew do exactly what they wanted.
Only 4 stages out of 12 here were original though and regardless of everything else they added, characters, bosses, bonus stages and bringing the physics as close to perfection as it's ever been that's always gonna be what cuts it off from being the greatest.
I don't think you can take that much content from the classics and also take the crown but even still it ranks very high. it'll have to settle for second best Sonic game of all time. Not too shabby.
I love Mania a lot, I'm sure it would've toppled S3&K if they had let Taxman, Stealth and crew do exactly what they wanted.
Only 4 stages out of 12 here were original though and regardless of everything else they added, characters, bosses, bonus stages and bringing the physics as close to perfection as it's ever been that's always gonna be what cuts it off from being the greatest.
I don't think you can take that much content from the classics and also take the crown but even still it ranks very high. it'll have to settle for second best Sonic game of all time. Not too shabby.
Mania is behind both 2 and 3&K for me.
-The level design is oversaturated with gimmicks
-The new stages are lame aside from maybe Press Garden 2, especially the boring final zone
-The only returning stages that are far and away better than the originals are Green Hill and stages that sucked to begin with (i.e. the Sonic CD zones)
-Many of the bosses are boring
-Who the hell asked for a Sky Chase throwback, again?
Mania is a good game and all, but the hype is just a little bit lost on me.
-The level design is oversaturated with gimmicks
-The new stages are lame aside from maybe Press Garden 2, especially the boring final zone
-The only returning stages that are far and away better than the originals are Green Hill and stages that sucked to begin with (i.e. the Sonic CD zones)
-Many of the bosses are boring
-Who the hell asked for a Sky Chase throwback, again?
Mania is a good game and all, but the hype is just a little bit lost on me.
Sonic 3 & Knuckles barely over Mania Plus. Sonic 3 is completely original and does a better job with its level design and storytelling. Mania has some of the worst boss battles in the series. Mania is still a great game and what I've wanted for over 20 years, so please give me more.
Sonic 3 & Knuckes > Mania Plus > 2 > 1 >>>>>>>>>>> CD
Sonic 3 & Knuckes > Mania Plus > 2 > 1 >>>>>>>>>>> CD
I'm not crazy about Sonic Mania's second half. Stages get a bit too long and there's a bit too many repeated zones in the game overall. I think I would have liked it more if it was mostly original content.
it has the mean bean machine, and that's the best fight in the series
sorry to prove you wrong
truthfully, i don't think S3+K has any memorable fights either, outside of big arm and Doomsday
Sonic Mania is paced slightly better, and I can sort of feel S3&Ks length by the end. Mania deliberately fixes a lot of 2D Sonic problems (Speed as a mechanic rather than just a reward, etc.) so it feels very breezy to play, even if it's just as long.
I think Mecha Sonic's fights, especially the Knuckles final boss one, is memorable.
There are a number of boss fights I like in 3&K on top of that, though not all are good, but I feel Mecha Sonic deserves special praise.
Also though I have a few issues with it, the Lava Reef Act 2 boss has definitely stuff with me, and the normal final boss of Death Egg.
I couldn't tell you which is the best, only that CD is probably the worst from those poll choices. And even then it's not that bad of a game.
S3&K might have the most consistent boss battles of the original 16 bit series (it steals some from 1 and 2). It was the first to introduce minibosses as well, so there was a lot of variety.
Are there any particular boss battles from the first 2 games that are knockout amazing?
Yeah Lava Reef's 2nd boss is more boring than anything else, I guess.
The Sonic 3 levels are the worst part of it, and that's mainly the Marble Garden -> Carnival Night stretch. Carnival Night isn't that terrible on its own though. Angel Island and Launch Base are top tier levels.
S&K is almost 100% great - the only slumps are Sandopolis and Death Egg, but they're only about as bad as Carnival Night. I don't hate playing them like I do Marble Garden or Sonic 2's Metropolis.
Edit: I love Lava Reef in S&K. It's a sad shadow of its former self in Mania.
They are both amazing but I must give it to S3&K.
Mania can't win for me purely because most of its stages are from other games, but I don't think any of the stages in either game are bad. Mania's bosses are almost universally weak imo. I also prefer the level design a bit more in 3&K. I haven't actually studied the layouts or anything, but Mania felt more "rollercoaster-y" to me while 3&K feels a bit slower paced and methodical (I could be wrong).
Oh nevermind I forgot about Oil Ocean. I do not like Oil Ocean in 2 or Mania. Waste of a zone to remix.
Mania can't win for me purely because most of its stages are from other games, but I don't think any of the stages in either game are bad. Mania's bosses are almost universally weak imo. I also prefer the level design a bit more in 3&K. I haven't actually studied the layouts or anything, but Mania felt more "rollercoaster-y" to me while 3&K feels a bit slower paced and methodical (I could be wrong).
Oh nevermind I forgot about Oil Ocean. I do not like Oil Ocean in 2 or Mania. Waste of a zone to remix.
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I thought S3K was the GOAT until I played Mania, went back, and realized how it still has bad enemy and hazard placement, some badly paced levels (Marble Garden), and annoying instant deaths everywhere. The only level I like anymore is Hydrocity.
It excels in worldbuilding and storytelling through its cutscenes, helped by the fact it's a unique entry and not a Greatest Hits album, but other than that, Mania takes the cake in almost every regard.
It excels in worldbuilding and storytelling through its cutscenes, helped by the fact it's a unique entry and not a Greatest Hits album, but other than that, Mania takes the cake in almost every regard.
Sonic and Knuckles (choosing S3&K always felt like cheating to me) is my all time favorite game, and I don't really like Sonic Mania.
It's awkward because all the bits and pieces are clearly made with tons of love and care, and the core concept (if 2D Sonic went 32-bit) is a great one. On paper this thing was made specifically for me and only me. Hell, the ninja boss throws shurikens that make the little "ching!" noise from Shinobi.
There are a billion things I love in and about Mania, but the level layouts all feel directionless and meandering—reminding me mostly of Sonic CD, my least favorite classic Sonic game. A number of the bosses are super dull—take that saw robot from Press Garden, for example: it isn't remotely challenging, but you can't just fuck it up in five seconds like your typical "this is totally beneath me" mid-level boss. You have to just sit there as it takes its sweet, sweet time to hover across the arena and break its arms at you, over and over. And it has a preoccupation with little gimmicks or asides that are just not any fun (like floating around in those bubbles in Hydrocity).
I'm in this weird position where I'm super happy for all the people who finally got the Sonic game they've been wanting for like 8,000 years, but I just keep running my fingers across my copy of Sonic Generations and sighing.
Also the conflicting building perspectives in Studiopolis bug the hell outta me.
It's awkward because all the bits and pieces are clearly made with tons of love and care, and the core concept (if 2D Sonic went 32-bit) is a great one. On paper this thing was made specifically for me and only me. Hell, the ninja boss throws shurikens that make the little "ching!" noise from Shinobi.
There are a billion things I love in and about Mania, but the level layouts all feel directionless and meandering—reminding me mostly of Sonic CD, my least favorite classic Sonic game. A number of the bosses are super dull—take that saw robot from Press Garden, for example: it isn't remotely challenging, but you can't just fuck it up in five seconds like your typical "this is totally beneath me" mid-level boss. You have to just sit there as it takes its sweet, sweet time to hover across the arena and break its arms at you, over and over. And it has a preoccupation with little gimmicks or asides that are just not any fun (like floating around in those bubbles in Hydrocity).
I'm in this weird position where I'm super happy for all the people who finally got the Sonic game they've been wanting for like 8,000 years, but I just keep running my fingers across my copy of Sonic Generations and sighing.
Also the conflicting building perspectives in Studiopolis bug the hell outta me.
I remember Sonic 2's day well, as the hype for a 10 year old who loved Sonic 1 was high - I just want to say continually that whilst it was fun enough and had some great aesthetics, I still to this day fucking hate the sprite for 2 and 3 to an extent in comparison to 1, CD and now Mania.
Big downgrade for me personally.
Anyway, Mania Plus probably wins for me
Mania Plus
Sonic 3 and K Complete
Sonic CD (god tier soundtrack and was a big fan of the original)
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
There was no Sonic 4....
Big downgrade for me personally.
Anyway, Mania Plus probably wins for me
Mania Plus
Sonic 3 and K Complete
Sonic CD (god tier soundtrack and was a big fan of the original)
Sonic 1
Sonic 2
There was no Sonic 4....
First of all, fuck all you who said Sonic was never good and then flip your shit over Sonic mania.
Second, the widescreen presentation in Sonic mania is a pretty big advantage over the originals. That alone swings it pretty hard.
And thirdly, I feel like Sonic 3 & knuckles is a substantially better game when you could turn the timer off. this is the only Sonic game where I would run up against the 10 minute timer because I would be having so much fun poking around the huge levels. Not all versions allow you to do this.
Second, the widescreen presentation in Sonic mania is a pretty big advantage over the originals. That alone swings it pretty hard.
And thirdly, I feel like Sonic 3 & knuckles is a substantially better game when you could turn the timer off. this is the only Sonic game where I would run up against the 10 minute timer because I would be having so much fun poking around the huge levels. Not all versions allow you to do this.
As dumb as it sounds, Mania wins almost by default because for the life of me I can't go back to the pre-Drop Dash days now that I'm used to it. I think that it's a better mechanic than the Spin Dash and I wish that the Sonic 2 devs had thought of it instead way back when.
I've never liked Sonic 3, apart from Ice Cap and the Big Arm fight (which you don't even get to fight locked on, except for the crappier version with Knuckles), so I'd have to give it to Mania. Sonic 2 is my favourite though, by far.
Ray is probably the best non-Sonic character gameplay wise though.
Ray is probably the best non-Sonic character gameplay wise though.
I love them all almost equally for different reasons. I supposed Mania Plus has the most going for it overall but it also had the most time to develop and they had over 20 years to figure out why everything worked so good in the originals.
Sonic 1 is not mentioned much in a positive light by many around here, but it is my most replayed game in the series even though growing up I was not especially fond of it. I think the balance between zones is incredible and I love the special stages.
CD is kind of a mess, but it is the boldest game of the bunch so it gets extra credit. I think this game has the coolest style of the series, but the weak bosses and level designs really hold it back from being my favorite. The special stages are fantastic in this game as well.
Sonic 2 is kind of the most pure game in the series. My only real complaint is that the special stages are kind of annoying. I think the spindash was a huge mistake too but that is more of a longterm franchise thing.
3K is just endless brilliance. I have a few nitpicky issues but nothing like the other games. I also love the individual games split apart too.
Mania I think is a bit too long. I do not really mind the lack of original levels, but I think Hydrocity Zone and Flying Battery Zone are fairly weak and overlong. Beyond that though it has my new favorite special stages and I think the drop dash is the best ability Sonic has EVER gotten. Mighty and Ray are incredible too but Ray's sprite feels kinda sloppy to me. He is too big and I think his tail should follow him while curled up like Tails' does. Beyond that, most of my issues with the base game were fixed with Plus. It is up there with Breath of the Wild and Yakuza 6 as my favorite games this gen.
tl;dr I give them all two thumbs up!
Sonic 1 is not mentioned much in a positive light by many around here, but it is my most replayed game in the series even though growing up I was not especially fond of it. I think the balance between zones is incredible and I love the special stages.
CD is kind of a mess, but it is the boldest game of the bunch so it gets extra credit. I think this game has the coolest style of the series, but the weak bosses and level designs really hold it back from being my favorite. The special stages are fantastic in this game as well.
Sonic 2 is kind of the most pure game in the series. My only real complaint is that the special stages are kind of annoying. I think the spindash was a huge mistake too but that is more of a longterm franchise thing.
3K is just endless brilliance. I have a few nitpicky issues but nothing like the other games. I also love the individual games split apart too.
Mania I think is a bit too long. I do not really mind the lack of original levels, but I think Hydrocity Zone and Flying Battery Zone are fairly weak and overlong. Beyond that though it has my new favorite special stages and I think the drop dash is the best ability Sonic has EVER gotten. Mighty and Ray are incredible too but Ray's sprite feels kinda sloppy to me. He is too big and I think his tail should follow him while curled up like Tails' does. Beyond that, most of my issues with the base game were fixed with Plus. It is up there with Breath of the Wild and Yakuza 6 as my favorite games this gen.
tl;dr I give them all two thumbs up!
Sonic Mania is great and all, but it's not a completely original game.
Therefore it'll always be second best. S3&K is king.
Therefore it'll always be second best. S3&K is king.
Sonic CD is my fav, and 2 is my least fav, after that choosing between 1,3 and Mania is really hard.
3 is the longest but a little too long, but the end is so damn epic.
1 is slower and more platform heavy and it has excellent pacing and variety between stages but it's rough in some parts and the speed cap sucks.
Mania seems the most refined and some level design is damn good but it's part a greatest hits so it never feels as original as the others. It does have the higher highs in the series though.
CD is 1 improved and I loved it for it, so many variety in stages art, level layout, bosses are a bit weak though.
2 is good but it's the one that has more bad stages, game needed some stages out.
3 is the longest but a little too long, but the end is so damn epic.
1 is slower and more platform heavy and it has excellent pacing and variety between stages but it's rough in some parts and the speed cap sucks.
Mania seems the most refined and some level design is damn good but it's part a greatest hits so it never feels as original as the others. It does have the higher highs in the series though.
CD is 1 improved and I loved it for it, so many variety in stages art, level layout, bosses are a bit weak though.
2 is good but it's the one that has more bad stages, game needed some stages out.
OG Sonic for me.
Sonic 1 has the right amount of speed but also slower platforming sections - that's why I originally enjoyed the game.
Sonic 3 has way too many cheap hits to be enjoyable for an amateur like me. And Sonic 2 is alright, but I never enjoyed it as much as the first.
Mania never clicked with me. I didn't really care much for it.
I guess I enjoy the history and originality that the original Trilogy brought to video games, and though I'm sure Mania is great, it's just what the original Sonics had, but with much less history and weight behind it in a crowded video game landscape.
Sonic 1 is 30 years old now, and I'd love to see someone finally break out of the original 2D formula into something more evolved, but still good.
Feel mostly the same about 2D Mario, fwiw.
Sonic 1 has the right amount of speed but also slower platforming sections - that's why I originally enjoyed the game.
Sonic 3 has way too many cheap hits to be enjoyable for an amateur like me. And Sonic 2 is alright, but I never enjoyed it as much as the first.
Mania never clicked with me. I didn't really care much for it.
I guess I enjoy the history and originality that the original Trilogy brought to video games, and though I'm sure Mania is great, it's just what the original Sonics had, but with much less history and weight behind it in a crowded video game landscape.
Sonic 1 is 30 years old now, and I'd love to see someone finally break out of the original 2D formula into something more evolved, but still good.
Feel mostly the same about 2D Mario, fwiw.
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I love stage transitions, they never seemed too intrusive to me and make the game seem less arcade-y and give everything more context.
I n e v e r understood the love for bosses at the end of every act though, I hated it in 3 and I hate it here. Sometimes I just want to complete a level without constantly worrying about whatever is waiting at the end for me, just let me chill.
Both of those are pretty much equal and they are the only great Sonic games that exist.
Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 are still pretty good tho
Sonic Mania would be better than S3 @ K if not for the overly long final stage. I find everything else in Mania to be on point though.
*citation needed*
The "prototype" you're talking about is the former state of the game before it was decided to be split into two so that one of them could make it to shelves in time for Christmas (real fun fact: despite all that, they didn't quite make it in time). You're over here talking like it was going to be an "all-in-one" release after S&K hit shelves a few months later. Which will be the first time I've ever heard of such a decision. Not that Sega is any stranger to the "many-games-on-one-cartridge" idea.
Sonic3K is still the best. It has the better cutscenes, plot, level design, brilliant and consistent art style and Hyper Sonic. Also the bonus and special stage system works the best here. It also still has the best soundtrack of the series (Chrome Gadget being my personal favourite).
Mania wins at animation and overall presentation (widescreen is a real game changer here), character selection (with Plus), and moveset (though Sonic's instashield got a nerf and is to inconsistent in its activation to be useful). Level design is poorer overall with inconsistent art style in places due to the zones being taken from different games, though the layouts themselves are pretty good on some levels and gimmicky messes in others. Also Sonic is the wrong shade of blue. The special stages are good, if a tad on the hard side, but moving blue spheres to the signposts was a mistake.
Overall Sonic 3 is better due to the 'campaign' and consistently high quality, but Mania has better technical presentation and the multiplayer is light years ahead of the other games.
Mania wins at animation and overall presentation (widescreen is a real game changer here), character selection (with Plus), and moveset (though Sonic's instashield got a nerf and is to inconsistent in its activation to be useful). Level design is poorer overall with inconsistent art style in places due to the zones being taken from different games, though the layouts themselves are pretty good on some levels and gimmicky messes in others. Also Sonic is the wrong shade of blue. The special stages are good, if a tad on the hard side, but moving blue spheres to the signposts was a mistake.
Overall Sonic 3 is better due to the 'campaign' and consistently high quality, but Mania has better technical presentation and the multiplayer is light years ahead of the other games.