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Deleted member 25606

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
8,973
It's been months since I watched it but I remember the exact same bullshit being in the recent The Mist TV series (ie the series based on the King novella).
Mid/late season the young gay character is confronted by his perpetual school bully in a bathroom. The bully beats him up and lips still bloody, the gay kid gets up and kisses his bully breaking the violently angry homophobic shell and revealing he was in love with his gay classmate the whole time :/
Somehow the show also included two more completely warped "twists" regarding sex and sexuality with:
The main young girl hooking up and falling for the classmate she accused of raping her with the majority of their interactions beforehand being him angrily brooding in her direction for being falsely accused & later the rapist being revealed to actually be the girl's gay best friend (same one who episodes ago just lovingly hooked up with his former bully) who was motivated to rape her so "she wouldn't leave him behind"? Can't quite remember but it was a fucked twist with fucked motivations and the story thread itself had zero reason to be part of the show to start with.
I watched that...ugh...I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough the funding came from religious people with rules, anyone left of center is realky evil or gets theirs to survive you have to be saintly( in a white Christian way) show really offended me, straight trash and it's a mockery of the original point of kings story.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
Somewhat related, speaking of awful portrayals of gay people, I've been watching Ranma 1/2 on Hulu and I got to that episode that introduces Tusbame (?) the girl who's into tomboyish Ukyo. The characters actually go "Huh? That's not right. She must not know you're actually a girl." As they try to show Tsubame she's got the wrong idea because she's a girl that's attracted to another girl" and then Tsubame goes "Fools! I know she's a girl!" "But... why?" And then the big revelation is that Tsubame is a straight guy who just likes dressing like a girl. Hence, it's "okay"

I mean, I know this was late 80s early 90s, but damn, what the hell Rumiko?
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,141
The show is shit.

That said, is there a proper way to show that character? Genuinely wondering. He's a victim of abuse in a very religious background. He's struggling with his sexuality. He's naturally violent and just a tyrant. I think the show could have done a much better job at showing his struggle, but is it a stretch to say he'd incorporate violence in his attempt at coming to terms with his feelings? I was a little disturbed they tried to explain "he assaulted a student with a broom because he's closeted" but I don't know, the show is a mess.

I guess it is a trope and thank God they didn't have Tyler fall in love with him. I was so worried they would go down that path.

In my opinion, if it is teen genre taking place in current time/normal era, just don't make a big deal over it and put the damn charactors in. It's been done so much that at this point you are wasting screen time if you are trying to involve it in the plot to make it work. It also runs the risk of having a character only there because he is gay.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,280
i like when the psychotic homophobic bullies turn out to only be bullies because they're secretly in love with the cast's One Gay, it's good, and cool, how it shifts violent homophobia off of heterosexuals and places it on gay people, and it's good, and cool, how it normalizes abusive relationships.
 

NinjaDBL

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,093
It's been months since I watched it but I remember the exact same bullshit being in the recent The Mist TV series (ie the series based on the King novella).
Mid/late season the young gay character is confronted by his perpetual school bully in a bathroom. The bully beats him up and lips still bloody, the gay kid gets up and kisses his bully breaking the violently angry homophobic shell and revealing he was in love with his gay classmate the whole time :/
Somehow the show also included two more completely warped "twists" regarding sex and sexuality with:
The main young girl hooking up and falling for the classmate she accused of raping her with the majority of their interactions beforehand being him angrily brooding in her direction for being falsely accused & later the rapist being revealed to actually be the girl's gay best friend (same one who episodes ago just lovingly hooked up with his former bully) who was motivated to rape her so "she wouldn't leave him behind"? Can't quite remember but it was a fucked twist with fucked motivations and the story thread itself had zero reason to be part of the show to start with.

Jesus Christ....

This is what usually happens when you have no lgbt voices in the writers room, just people using our identities and struggles for shock value. Looked up it only has one season and deservingly so going by your descriptions. Ugh.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
i like when the psychotic homophobic bullies turn out to only be bullies because they're secretly in love with the cast's One Gay, it's good, and cool, how it shifts violent homophobia off of heterosexuals and places it on gay people, and it's good, and cool, how it normalizes abusive relationships.

pretty much

I mean, self-loathing gays who direct their internalized homophobia outward very much do exist IRL, but that's definitely not where the vast majority of homophobia comes from, and it's even worse when you add "victim falls in love with former abuser" on top of that
 

moomoo14

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
441
13 Reasons Why seems like the kind of show that manages to piss absolutely everyone off. Like, I know zero people that actually like this show, across the entire wide political spectrum. It's just full of badly handling sensitive subject matter.
 

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,197
That would require it to not be a thing IRL, and unfortunately there's enough "anti-gay ______ is secretly screwing dudes" stories in the real world to justify it, even though it's not going to apply to a large % of homophobic shitheads.

Just because there have been some cases IRL does not make this trope justified at all in media.
 

Boogiepop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,966
Somewhat related, speaking of awful portrayals of gay people, I've been watching Ranma 1/2 on Hulu and I got to that episode that introduces Tusbame (?) the girl who's into tomboyish Ukyo. The characters actually go "Huh? That's not right. She must not know you're actually a girl." As they try to show Tsubame she's got the wrong idea because she's a girl that's attracted to another girl" and then Tsubame goes "Fools! I know she's a girl!" "But... why?" And then the big revelation is that Tsubame is a straight guy who just likes dressing like a girl. Hence, it's "okay"

I mean, I know this was late 80s early 90s, but damn, what the hell Rumiko?
That episode is awwwwwwful and easily the worst in the show in that regard, what with the crap about "no, we must correct things so you don't stray down the wrong path!"

The one bit of good news: That's 100% filler, so you don't get that garbage in the manga (which I won't claim to have nothing problematic, mind you, but nothing THAT bad. Plus I'll always adore the series and have a sort of gratitude towards it for getting me to think about stuff in a way that eventually made me go "Oh damn... I'm trans!" Which actually seems to be a thing for a lot of people, haha.)
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,987
The show is a mess. I mean at least one of the main characters was a strong, older, confident gay man, which was nice, but the series fucks everything up.

If you want an amazing tv show with powerful and progressive portrayals of queer minorities, watch Harlots on Hulu
 

Deleted member 22490

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,237
That would require it to not be a thing IRL, and unfortunately there's enough "anti-gay ______ is secretly screwing dudes" stories in the real world to justify it, even though it's not going to apply to a large % of homophobic shitheads.
As The Bear said, just because it happens in real life, doesn't mean that this trope is justified. The fact that this trope is overused is a problem and it should die.
 

Orin_linwe

Member
Nov 26, 2017
706
Malmoe, Sweden.

Part of it comes from historical depiction of homosexuality/non-straightness in Hollywood-movies, that started with purely subtext (you can't have a lesbian on screen, but you can have a female vampire implying sexual violence to another female).

Bit by bit, things opened up from "only subtext" to acknowleding that gay people exist, but are pathetic, devious, pitiful and fundamentally predatory. Somewhere in his era developed a popular depiction of gay people - especially of gay men - getting humiliated, beaten and threatened by a character (sometimes by the main character of the film).

But since gay people still couldn't be fully formed human beings with complex inner lives on-screen - and instead followed the above characterization of being inherently devious and "other" - frequently responded to this kind of abuse as if it was a consensual S/M situation, giving the abuser compliments while being abused, when the actual context allowed for nothing of the sort as a plausible "thing".

Some of that regressive portrayal of homosexuality is still hanging around by way of tropes, and - perhaps - also reinforced by a weirdly "pseudo-woke" way of writing gay characters as tragic characters (if not outright "saints", in the sense that the more abuse they get put through, the more excellently, transcendentally human and kind they become. Characters who are written like this rarely, if ever, complain about their mistreatment, opting to instead just "be brilliantly poised in their suffering").

This kind of writing is obviously trash, but its conventions has roots that stretches back to the beginning of cinema (with many mutations along the way).

"The Celluloid Closet" is a pretty interesting documentary about LGBTQ-depiction in Hollywood. It doesn't necessarily dig directly into this train of thought, but it's a pretty good starting point for anyone who is curious about getting a brief primer on Hollywood and depicting LGBTQ characters (without attending a more in-depth, academic course).

It is available for free on Youtube, and can be seen by clicking this link.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Just because there have been some cases IRL does not make this trope justified at all in media.
It being overused and used inappropriately (literally anything w/ love interests, that's not really how it works when it crops up IRL) doesn't mean that you shouldn't see that type of behavior depicted whatsoever.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,123
Brooklyn, NY
This was also in Sex Education and I didn't like that scene in that either.

tbf, Sex Education is probably one of the less bad uses of this trope, since I never really felt like Eric was in serious danger from the closeted bully character (caveat: I may be misremembering a few scenes, though).

it's still very bad, though, and I would have expected better of the show up until that happened
 

J2d

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,140
Is it different in moonlight since they hook up before and the guys does it out of peer pressure or is it considered to belong in the same trope? I didn't read anything before or after seeing the movie so I might have missed the criticism.
 

Ravelle

Member
Oct 31, 2017
17,805
tbf, Sex Education is probably one of the less bad uses of this trope, since I never really felt like Eric was in serious danger from the closeted bully character (caveat: I may be misremembering a few scenes, though).

it's still very bad, though, and I would have expected better of the show up until that happened

I kept expecting for him to develop as the show went on but he kept bullying and then has one hostile sex scene with him, then leaves still being a a bully.
 

ncsoft

Member
Dec 11, 2017
713
Is it different in moonlight since they hook up before and the guys does it out of peer pressure or is it considered to belong in the same trope? I didn't read anything before or after seeing the movie so I might have missed the criticism.
I think Moonlight is a completely different thing, it's quite powerful actually, adds to the film.
 

Sweeney Swift

User Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,743
#IStandWithTaylor
Is it different in moonlight since they hook up before and the guys does it out of peer pressure or is it considered to belong in the same trope? I didn't read anything before or after seeing the movie so I might have missed the criticism.

I'd consider it different. Nothing about it seemed exploitative, regressive or problematic, on its own and certainly not compared to examples like the 13 Reasons Why one
 

ThereAre4Lights

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,858
Check out Tales of the City (2019 - Netflix). The couples are kind of boring, but in a regular sort of way. Also, no one gets their head smashed in by closet cases, at least not by episode 3.

That Sex Education plotline really put me off even though I liked the show.
 

Maximus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,586
It was a trash "twist" or moment amongst all the other stupid shit they decided to do with season 3. It just made me dislike Monty even more for being a piece of shit for beating the shit out of someone else.
 
Dec 4, 2017
1,801
London
tbf, Sex Education is probably one of the less bad uses of this trope, since I never really felt like Eric was in serious danger from the closeted bully character (caveat: I may be misremembering a few scenes, though).

it's still very bad, though, and I would have expected better of the show up until that happened

I didn't mind it much at all in Sex Education tbh. It's definitely a tired old trope at this point but the subtext between those two was so obvious from the get go that when they did finally kiss it didn't feel like it was meant to be OMG SHOCK TWIST, but more like something of a resolution. At least that's how I felt.

13 Reasons Why use of it in S3 is so much more egregious because of what Monty did in the previous season - It retcons the whole context of the assault and it's dangerously close to 'oh look, the mop-rapist isn't a rapist because he's a psychopathic jock asshole. He's a rapist because he's a repressed homosexual.'
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
Is it different in moonlight since they hook up before and the guys does it out of peer pressure or is it considered to belong in the same trope? I didn't read anything before or after seeing the movie so I might have missed the criticism.

By not ostensibly being about romantic relationships, so much as the protagonist's relationship with himself, I think Moonlight already escapes this classification. Kevin giving in to peer pressure and beating Chiron I think is significant because it leads to the more thorough self-negation or abandonment that happens in the third part. I also think the order matters, insofar as this sequence of events serves to make Chiron's first and only sexual encounter a bit furtive and confusing for what I think are more 'legitimate' plot reasons instead of the bigger cliche with some pretty unfortunate implications. And in general, with how internally divided Chiron's self-concept is, I don't really think Kevin can very readily represent romantic potential, so much as an opportunity for Chrion to see or realize himself, I think because, essentially ever since he was a small sensitive kid with a dysfunctional home environment, he's been terrified of actually being seen.
 

Choppasmith

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,415
Beaumont, CA
That episode is awwwwwwful and easily the worst in the show in that regard, what with the crap about "no, we must correct things so you don't stray down the wrong path!"

The one bit of good news: That's 100% filler, so you don't get that garbage in the manga (which I won't claim to have nothing problematic, mind you, but nothing THAT bad. Plus I'll always adore the series and have a sort of gratitude towards it for getting me to think about stuff in a way that eventually made me go "Oh damn... I'm trans!" Which actually seems to be a thing for a lot of people, haha.)

Okay, I had come across a screen cap from Urusei Yatsura that did something similar (Ryonousuke chased by a man dressed as a girl) so I thought it might've been some weird pattern. Thanks for the info. And yeah Ranma was one of those gateway series I had seen in High a School (late 90s) thanks to a fan who had a few tapes. Never saw it from beginning to end before. It's got a bunch of problems Iike you said (but still manages to charm), but that episode really rubbed me the wrong way.
 

J2d

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,140
By not ostensibly being about romantic relationships, so much as the protagonist's relationship with himself, I think Moonlight already escapes this classification. Kevin giving in to peer pressure and beating Chiron I think is significant because it leads to the more thorough self-negation or abandonment that happens in the third part. I also think the order matters, insofar as this sequence of events serves to make Chiron's first and only sexual encounter a bit furtive and confusing for what I think are more 'legitimate' plot reasons instead of the bigger cliche with some pretty unfortunate implications. And in general, with how internally divided Chiron's self-concept is, I don't really think Kevin can very readily represent romantic potential, so much as an opportunity for Chrion to see or realize himself, I think because, essentially ever since he was a small sensitive kid with a dysfunctional home environment, he's been terrified of actually being seen.
Ok thanks for that write up, I have never seen glee,13 reasons why or been aware of this trope so this topic was an eye opener.
 

RadioHeadAche

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,534
Didn't they do this in the US adaption of Shameless? It's been a few years, so I may not remember that right.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,015
It's a dumb trope. The second season of True Detective also did this. Honestly, that entire season was filled with questionable shit. Like the female lead was promiscuous because she was molested as a child, which plays into the harmful stereotype about women who enjoy sleeping around (like pornstars). Oh, something must've happened to them! 😑
 

Hours Left

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,421
Queer characters are routinely treated like absolute garbage across all media. From queer coded villains, paper thin "gay BFF" characters that only exist to serve the female MC, "trap" transgender characters, lesbians created for straight men, "shifty" bisexual who only want to homewreck, and the most despicable, as tragedy fodder so they can kill off someone without having to shake up the heteronormative atmosphere. It's disgusting, abhorrent and evil.

Fuck anyone who creates this trash.
 

EdibleKnife

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,723
I watched that...ugh...I'm pretty sure if you look hard enough the funding came from religious people with rules, anyone left of center is realky evil or gets theirs to survive you have to be saintly( in a white Christian way) show really offended me, straight trash and it's a mockery of the original point of kings story.
The fact that the show was barely scary was enough of a betrayal but they really went the extra mile to make it inferior to the novella in nearly every way.

Jesus Christ....

This is what usually happens when you have no lgbt voices in the writers room, just people using our identities and struggles for shock value. Looked up it only has one season and deservingly so going by your descriptions. Ugh.
It's honestly one of those times I come away astounded at the amount of people who approve of and get paid for such atrocious decisions. As a queer guy, I'd like to believe that there'd be at least a few straight people during production who'd call out such gross story beats but too often I end up giving people way too much credit.
 

TheGummyBear

Member
Jan 6, 2018
8,787
United Kingdom
the whole "homophobic bully is secretly gay" trope needs to die

I wouldn't say it needs to die, it's a perfectly valid trope that encapsulates what's (unfortunately) an all too real life experience. There are lots of people who externalise their inner anxieties about their sexuality through abusing those who are openly happy about theirs. Just look at how many anti-LGBT Republicans have been caught soliciting gay sex for an obvious example. It definitely needs to be less prevalent though. At times it feels like it's one of the only kinds of stories involving gay characters that ever gets to be told.

The way it's portrayed certainly needs to change too, because the OP is right, this is normalising openly abusive relationships. Can you imagine the shit storm that would happen if a story about a man abusing a woman resulted in the woman openly declaring love for her abuser? Why is that acceptable in stories about gay people? I'm okay with preaching forgiveness for someone who makes the effort to grow and change into a better person, I'm a strong believer in people being able to change their ways after all. But pairing up a victim with their assailant is fucked up.
 
OP
OP
Fridaynightcatlady
Oct 27, 2017
2,582
It's a dumb trope. The second season of True Detective also did this. Honestly, that entire season was filled with questionable shit. Like the female lead was promiscuous because she was molested as a child, which plays into the harmful stereotype about women who enjoy sleeping around (like pornstars). Oh, something must've happened to them! 😑

I must've missed this, when did this happen in True Detective?

The way it's portrayed certainly needs to change too, because the OP is right, this is normalising openly abusive relationships. Can you imagine the shit storm that would happen if a story about a man abusing a woman resulted in the woman openly declaring love for her abuser? Why is that acceptable in stories about gay people? I'm okay with preaching forgiveness for someone who makes the effort to grow and change into a better person, I'm a strong believer in people being able to change their ways after all. But pairing up a victim with their assailant is fucked up.

Exactly. My main issue is pairing guys like that together. Not only is it fucked up because it romanticizes abuse, but I also feel that you're just teaching kids/youth that even if you're a fucking asshole/abuser, things will turn out alright, so there's no sense of justice whatsoever.

Not to say that abuse isn't present in other queer relationships, but I've always thought that violence is more normalized between gay men, and shows like the ones mentioned, certainly don't help that.
 

Gwenpoolshark

Member
Jan 5, 2018
4,109
The Pool
This is probably one of the lesser sins of 13 reasons why tbh.

I feel like the whole point of that show is to pretend to be woke while actually reinforcing incredibly regressive and outdated values.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
It's like when i watched half of an episode of that sexual education show and i knew the hunky homophobic guy would fuck with the gay guy after 2 secondes lol

I think the responsible for that could simply be that it's the most basic gay fantasy in that case, and they always go for that.. for the gay crowd i think.
It's always the same shit. It's like in that countryside movie, i don't remember the name, where of course the gay guy meets a straight looking hot guy and they somewhat fight in the mud until they start sucking each other's cock lol. This is quiet ridiculous. But i get the appeal i mean.. I really think it's a way to appeal to gay fantasies. And i'm pretty sure gay porn sites would show a pretty big trend like that to.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,460
It turns out straight people aren't very creative when it comes to LGBT+ characters/story lines.
 
Dec 4, 2017
1,801
London
It's like when i watched half of an episode of that sexual education show and i knew the hunky homophobic guy would fuck with the gay guy after 2 secondes lol

I think the responsible for that could simply be that it's the most basic gay fantasy in that case, and they always go for that.. for the gay crowd i think.
It's always the same shit. It's like in that countryside movie, i don't remember the name, where of course the gay guy meets a straight looking hot guy and they somewhat fight in the mud until they start sucking each other's cock lol. This is quiet ridiculous. But i get the appeal i mean.. I really think it's a way to appeal to gay fantasies. And i'm pretty sure gay porn sites would show a pretty big trend like that to.

Do you mean God's Own Country?

I don't really see that the Romanian guy 'looks' straight while the lead 'looks' gay. We only know the lead is gay (or bi, for that matter) is because we've seen him fucking a guy in a cattle truck.
 

Orioto

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,716
Paris
Do you mean God's Own Country?

I don't really see that the Romanian guy 'looks' straight while the lead 'looks' gay. We only know the lead is gay (or bi, for that matter) is because we've seen him fucking a guy in a cattle truck.

Yeah i mean.. you know it's all about straight looking guy manly fucking in the straightest context possible :p basic fantasy
 

Psrock1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
657
funny thing, the best relationship in 13 reason is a gay relationship. Every other relationship seems to be fucked up period.