Software engineers are overpaid

BobsReset · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
This thread has been making rounds on Twitter, in the spirit of pay transparency and to shed light on pay inequality that's pervasive in the tech industry.

And yet, I can't help but feel angry at these numbers. Why should people who make software make so much more than the rest of us? Why is this type of work valued so much over others?

Even those who also work in the tech industry and aren't engineers don't make nearly as much unless they're executives or directors.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated because it seems like I'll never make as much as these people, just because my brain doesn't work like theirs. They're not wildly smarter than me, they just think differently, and they're rewarded so much more for it.

So the key point here is:
just because my brain doesn't work like theirs. They're not wildly smarter than me, they just think differently

Ultimately it comes down to the fact they have spent 100's of hours learning how to think in the way that is needed to make software. They are no more clever than you, but I also don't think their brain works in a different way fundamentally, they have just spent a lot of time doing something and have trained it in a certain manner.

Most people can become software developers, including you! If you want to earn a software developer salary there is literally nothing stopping you. There is a lot of free education on the web on how to become one. Its not something that will happen overnight but it doesn't even necessarily need to take that long to get into the industry if a route is taken that allows for exposure to technology whilst learning the skills.

RoderickToombs · Feb 15, 2020

low-G said:
Oh yeah I'm fully aware and always preparing for that, but that doesn't answer my question. I'm not going to have the confidence to ask for more if the average is less than what I already make.

Then don't ask until you've got another offer on the table ;)

noob-noob · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
another fun fact! I'm a woman! Who's generalizing now lmao.

Anyway given your attitude I'm sure that your non engineer co workers wish you weren't there. They work their ass off too but it doesn't matter to you.

Sorry I didn't look at your profile.

I treat all my coworkers with respect regardless of what they do, something you've shown yourself incapable of doing in this thread.

I'm just telling you the truth, if you care about money go do something that pays well. There's literally a post on this page from someone that didn't even get a traditional 4 year degree and is doing well for themselves in software development.

Stop complaining and work towards achieving your goal. Or I guess you could sit around and complain on a forum 👍

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

BobsReset said:
So the key point here is:
just because my brain doesn't work like theirs.

Its not true at all to say: they just think differently

I agree with you that: They're not wildly smarter than me

Ultimately it comes down to the fact they have spent 100's of hours learning how to think in the way that is needed to make software. They are no more clever than you, nor do they think differently, they have just spent a lot of time doing something.

Most people can become software developers, including you! If you want to earn a software developer salary there is literally nothing stopping you. There is a lot of free education on the web on how to become one. Its not something that will happen overnight but it doesnt even necessarily need to take that long to get into the industry if a route is taken that allows for exposure to technology whilst learning the skills.

I disagree. While I can learn techniques that would make me better at that kind of work, it's not something that comes naturally to me. It comes naturally to others because of how they think and what they're naturally talented at. Just like how anyone can learn to be a better writer, not everyone should be a novelist.

Muppet of a Man · Feb 15, 2020

The people profiting off of the software engineers' work are the ones that are actually criminally overpaid.

x3sphere · Feb 15, 2020

Hard disagree. If anything I feel like I'm underpaid for the stuff I deal with on a daily basis. There may some people that are overpaid but that's true of any profession - there's going to be outliers.

Really the only people I feel are overpaid are CEOs or other high-level execs (not always but generally), the rest of us are underpaid.

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

noob-noob said:
Sorry I didn't look at your profile.

I treat all my coworkers with respect regardless of what they do, something you've shown yourself incapable of doing in this thread.

I'm just telling you the truth, if you care about money go do something that pays well. There's literally a post on this page from someone that didn't even get a traditional 4 year degree and is doing well for themselves in software development.

Stop complaining and work towards achieving your goal. Or I guess you could sit around and complain on a forum 👍

Do you though? Or are your managers and non tech coworkers overpaid because apparently they have no real world skills and didn't work as hard as you?

I don't want to be a dev, though. That's the point.

BobsReset · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
I disagree. While I can learn techniques that would make me better at that kind of work, it's not something that comes naturally to me. It comes naturally to others because of how they think and what they're naturally talented at. Just like how anyone can learn to be a better writer, not everyone should be a novelist.

I think the top 10% of developers would say they are naturals but theres a reason imposter syndrome is so prevelant in the industry.

I think easily 60% of developers, including high earners would say they got their through sheer hard work rather than a natural ability. I suspect thats true for most jobs and not just developers to be fair! I doubt most doctors/ surgeons are naturals but through years of experience are able to do what they do. Likely with fear and trepidation when practising too!

AbortedWalrusFetus · Feb 15, 2020

I'm a Manager of a software development team of 10 working in the IoT space, with 12 years of software development experience. I'm actually pretty underpaid and honestly should hold a higher title, but I had to switch jobs a year ago due to the small business startup I worked at basically failing, and I didn't have the luxury of taking my time searching for a job. If I had been able to take my time during the job search I'd likely be making at least $10k more than I am I'd guess.

That said I am making $140k salary, $10k in shares signing bonus, and a 12% ($16,800) annual bonus. There's also ancillary benefits like a 6% 401k match and an ESPP which I believe has a 5-10% discount. The pay is good, but the job is incredibly stressful and complicated, and managing a team of 10 employees in software is quite difficult. If I was working in NYC, SF, DC, Seattle, or even Austin I'd likely be making $30-40k more at the least.

nitewulf · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
another fun fact! I'm a woman! Who's generalizing now lmao.

Anyway given your attitude I'm sure that your non engineer co workers wish you weren't there. They work their ass off too but it doesn't matter to you.

This discussion would be a lot more useful if you mentioned what you do and what are your aspirations career wise. Constructive versus pissing contest. One may say doctors have the most "noble" profession, they save lives after all. Why even bother studying or doing anything else?

That discussion takes us no where.

effingvic · Feb 15, 2020

Nah, I think CEOs are overpaid. At least engineers actually help build the products. Plus, its actually really hard to find good software engineers so when you get one, you better hold on to them.

Selbran · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
I disagree. While I can learn techniques that would make me better at that kind of work, it's not something that comes naturally to me. It comes naturally to others because of how they think and what they're naturally talented at. Just like how anyone can learn to be a better writer, not everyone should be a novelist.

I'm not fond of talking points like this because of it debasing the fact that some people put a ton of dedication and discipline into learning new things and instead suggests that they were gifted.

ItIsOkBro · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
Sorry, they do have privilege. No matter how much knowledge they spread, or how much they help others. If you make that much, you are privileged.

how does this make any sense? if we're talking social privilege then, by my definition it's what you started with and not what you ended up with. to look at someone's salary alone and conclude privilege from that is wild.

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

ItIsOkBro said:
how does this make any sense? if we're talking social privilege then, by my definition it's what you started with and not what you ended up with. to look at someone's salary alone and conclude privilege from that is wild.

Is a rich person, even if their wealth is earned, not privileged in society?

LuckyLocke · Feb 15, 2020

There's a big demand for software developers across many industries and not enough developers for the demand due to it being a high skilled job. This is why they get paid so much, they have a lot of options.

bricewgilbert · Feb 15, 2020

CEOs are overpaid. CEOs are overpaid. CEOs, CEOs, CEOs. Everyone else is underpaid. Hell the amount of money a software actually provides for the company overall means they probably should get even more if we are talking about proportions. Capitalism is legalized theft etc.

Tenck · Feb 15, 2020

low-G said:
Oh yeah I'm fully aware and always preparing for that, but that doesn't answer my question. I'm not going to have the confidence to ask for more if the average is less than what I already make.

Why wouldn't you ask for more than the average if that's what you feel you're worth? Worst they can say is no and they'll offer you whatever they come up with.

Honestly from personal experience and from the people I know, it's best to look outside your company for a decent raise.

wandering · Feb 15, 2020

Saifu said:
Which "other people" are you talking about?
Those that also offer great value to the marketplace, and able to reap great reward from it?
Or those that choose to do what is "easier", despite knowing that it will only get them so far in life?

The assumption that the market accurately rewards those who are deserving and punishes those who are not is laughably naive.

TitanicFall · Feb 15, 2020

Some software developers are overpaid because they manage to convince an employer they are worth more than they are. This is easy when you have a non-technical person doing the hiring of technical people. However in general I don't think they are overpaid. People are dependent on software. Without it modern society would be very different and for the worse.

demosthenes · Feb 15, 2020

nsilvias said:
capitalism, where we shit on the workers while ceos laugh their way to the bank

Great job at reading a very small op.

ItIsOkBro · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
Is a rich person, even if their wealth is earned, not privileged in society?

are two people making $200k equally privileged?

Deleted member 8901 · Feb 15, 2020

noob-noob said:
Sorry I didn't look at your profile.

I treat all my coworkers with respect regardless of what they do, something you've shown yourself incapable of doing in this thread.

What about those useless MBAs who don't know anything and clearly don't work as hard as engineers?

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

ItIsOkBro said:
are two people making $200k equally privileged?

That's where intersectionality of identities comes in. Anyway, you can't deny that someone making 200k a year is privileged. I don't know how you couldn't see that.

tsampikos · Feb 15, 2020

God. GOD. This is so dumb. The software that is made is so much more valuable than what developers actually make. You can develop a solution to a problem that generates or saves tens of millions of dollars to a company and not even see a single dollar for your work at the end of the day. And here you are feeling entitled to the value someone else brings to a given business you aren't even a part of.

Blanquito · Feb 15, 2020

If software dev isn't your thing, there's still valuable positions that you could try to go for that get paid well too.

In OPs case, see if you can work your way into QA - I helped a customer success person transition to QA at my current job and they kill it. But other non-programming jobs as well are available too: design, product management, etc. All of those are jobs that don't require you to know how to program, and your human interaction skills are valuable as well.

That being said, the people on twitter are some of the top performers of the tech industry; the Lebrons of software engineering. The vast majority don't make that much.

Raccoon · Feb 15, 2020

OP, do you want programmers to be paid less?

nsilvias · Feb 15, 2020

demosthenes said:
Great job at reading a very small op.

Good job at missing the point

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

Raccoon said:
OP, do you want programmers to be paid less?

idk

I just think others should be paid more.

balgajo · Feb 15, 2020

One factor to keep in mind is that right now it's a good time to be a software engineer. Too much software companies for a small quantity of software enginneers. I receive a lot of messages from recruiters on Linkedin per week from different parts of the world. Last time I changed my job the new company offered me almost the double of the previous one, which had a salary above of average.

ItIsOkBro · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
That's where intersectionality of identities comes in. Anyway, you can't deny that someone making 200k a year is privileged. I don't know how you couldn't see that.

yes I can deny that if this hypothetical person did not have any unarned advantages in life that paved the way to them making 200k.

nitewulf · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
Is a rich person, even if their wealth is earned, not privileged in society?

A $200K salary isn't wealth. That person isn't rich. The potential $500K he will earn is useful, that would enable him to purchase property (or invest), which becomes "asset" that can generate even more revenue. A $200 K yearly salary goes towards -> rent, utilities, bills, purchases and miscellaneous expenses, entertainment -> which based on where one lives and what ones tastes include, could mean zero savings.

nextJin · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
I disagree. While I can learn techniques that would make me better at that kind of work, it's not something that comes naturally to me. It comes naturally to others because of how they think and what they're naturally talented at. Just like how anyone can learn to be a better writer, not everyone should be a novelist.

No they don't WANT to be a novelist, anyone can do anything they want (other than some sort of handicap/physical limitations). This topic was a horrible argument for your overall point because software developers/engineers can be self taught with YouTube/Pluralsight/Udemy/etc.

It's even easier than IT in general such as a Cisco path or Cyber Security. With those you need to find the money for certifications. The training is also extremely cheap. Buy the new Cisco CCNA books off Amazon and download Packet Tracer or buy a Boson lab for 100 bucks.

It's the same thing as saying I can't be a drive thru operator at McDonalds because my brain doesn't understand how it works. Is it easier to learn? Sure. But it's completely doable to self learn Python, Ruby, C, etc.

Software Programmers/Developers/etc. are not special people with minds that are any different than anyone else. They may have found it interesting, knew the salary ranges and went for it, or knew they'd be able to get a job and busted their asses off to learn it. Just because you find it difficult doesn't mean they didn't. They probably wanted to kill themselves many many times in their time with the material.

I HATED ITIL and Project Management type curriculum/certifications. But I suffered through it and got it down. It wasn't my cup of tea. I'm a Network Engineer by trade and did it. I've also done courses in Python. If I had to feed my family and lost my job I would get involved with Python and DevOps even though I would hate every minute of it.

demosthenes · Feb 15, 2020

nsilvias said:
Good job at missing the point

Which was?

Raccoon · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
idk

I just think others should be paid more.

oh

yeah that makes sense to me. a ton of jobs surrounding software are really undervalued. I know QA people do miserable, tedious work and are treated like second class citizens

NetMapel · Feb 15, 2020

We post here on a videogame hobby forums. We are all privileged here If we want to get real.

ascii42 · Feb 15, 2020

Yeah, it varies by area. I make $102k per year, DoD employee for 10 years now. But I live in a relatively low cost of living area. My house was $95k and I've already paid it off.

Spork4000 · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
I disagree. While I can learn techniques that would make me better at that kind of work, it's not something that comes naturally to me. It comes naturally to others because of how they think and what they're naturally talented at. Just like how anyone can learn to be a better writer, not everyone should be a novelist.

Very few developers are in that tier. I'd say not a single person on my dev team naturally thinks like a computer scientist. I've worked with some of the people you're talking about, but they're the exception and not the rule.

Rosebud · Feb 15, 2020

nitewulf said:
A $200K salary isn't wealth. That person isn't rich. The potential $500K he will earn is useful, that would enable him to purchase property (or invest), which becomes "asset" that can generate even more revenue. A $200 K yearly salary goes towards -> rent, utilities, bills, purchases and miscellaneous expenses, entertainment -> which based on where one lives and what ones tastes include, could mean zero savings.

Which is a privilege by itself lol

Where I live, $200k means 1 million yearly.

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

nitewulf said:
A $200K salary isn't wealth. That person isn't rich. The potential $500K he will earn is useful, that would enable him to purchase property (or invest), which becomes "asset" that can generate even more revenue. A $200 K yearly salary goes towards -> rent, utilities, bills, purchases and miscellaneous expenses, entertainment -> which based on where one lives and what ones tastes include, could mean zero savings.

Nah. You are rich if you make 200k. Like, go ahead and tell my previously homeless friends that you aren't rich making 200k. Please do.

ItIsOkBro said:
yes I can deny that if this hypothetical person did not have any unarned advantages in life that paved the way to them making 200k.

not sure what you mean. Previous hardship doesn't mean you can't become privileged.

RoderickToombs · Feb 15, 2020

Sometimes I think that Era's idea of rich is someone who can buy a new generation console on day one and not worry about it.

Spork4000 · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
Nah. You are rich if you make 200k. Like, go ahead and tell my previously homeless friends that you aren't rich making 200k. Please do.

not sure what you mean. Previous hardship doesn't mean you can't become privileged.

In New York you aren't rich making $200k I'll say it to you, your previously homeless friends, my previously homeless friends or people struggling to get a job.

The $500k in equity is a big deal though, guy is doing well at least.

mutantmagnet · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
This thread has been making rounds on Twitter, in the spirit of pay transparency and to shed light on pay inequality that's pervasive in the tech industry.

And yet, I can't help but feel angry at these numbers. Why should people who make software make so much more than the rest of us? Why is this type of work valued so much over others?

Even those who also work in the tech industry and aren't engineers don't make nearly as much unless they're executives or directors.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated because it seems like I'll never make as much as these people, just because my brain doesn't work like theirs. They're not wildly smarter than me, they just think differently, and they're rewarded so much more for it.

New York is the finance capital of this nation. Software engineers aren't making bloody phone apps.

They are making applications to protect money in various investment institutions such as your bank. Do you want the people refining your bank or retirement fund security to be underpaid?

They do a lot more than that but you didn't think for one second where they were located.

Rosebud · Feb 15, 2020

RoderickToombs said:
Sometimes I think that Era's idea of rich is someone who can buy a new generation console on day one and not worry about it.

You don't need to be Bill Gates to be privileged.

sbenji · Feb 15, 2020

So I have 5.5 years experience. I make 190 TC in Seattle area.
I originally worked in Memphis TN. In 2014, I started at 50. Went to 63 in 2016. Increased to 87 in 2017. When I left the company in late 2018 I think I was around 90.

I think if you do a comparison of costs I am not much better off now. Really enjoy the weather though.

ecnal · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
And yet, I can't help but feel angry at these numbers. Why should people who make software make so much more than the rest of us? Why is this type of work valued so much over others?

Even those who also work in the tech industry and aren't engineers don't make nearly as much unless they're executives or directors.

Anyway, I'm just frustrated because it seems like I'll never make as much as these people, just because my brain doesn't work like theirs. They're not wildly smarter than me, they just think differently, and they're rewarded so much more for it.

I don't understand this question.

Do you think software engineers are arbitrarily assigned a "too high" annual salary?

There's a reason why some software engineers -- and by virtue other developers -- are paid relatively high salaries.

ApatheticDolphin · Feb 15, 2020

mutantmagnet said:
New York is the finance capital of this nation. Software engineers aren't making bloody phone apps.

They are making applications to protect money in various investment institutions such as your bank. Do you want the people refining your bank or retirement fund security to be underpaid?

They do a lot more than that but you didn't think for one second where they were located.

The twitter thread OP works on mobile at Slack. They are quite literally making phone apps lol

Anyway, I live in SF and I am thinking relative to high COL cities.

Conkerkid11 · Feb 15, 2020

sbenji said:
So I have 5.5 years experience. I make 190 TC in Seattle area.
I originally worked in Memphis TN. In 2014, I started at 50. Went to 63 in 2016. Increased to 87 in 2017. When I left the company in late 2018 I think I was around 90.

I think if you do a comparison of costs I am not much better off now. Really enjoy the weather though.

Damn, congrats

Carn · Feb 15, 2020

skeptem said:
Benefits: standard 401k, healthcare, 2 weeks vacation and free lunch and snacks.

this boggles my European socialist mind. 4 or 5 weeks is pretty much the standard over here no matter the profession (I actually have 6 weeks vacation).

TitanicFall · Feb 15, 2020

ApatheticDolphin said:
Anyway, I live in SF and I am thinking relative to high COL cities.

At least you have the privilege of good weather.

sbenji · Feb 15, 2020

BreakyBoy said:
Location/company you work for does matter quite a bit. But in general:

DevOps/Site Reliability Engineers

Machine Learning

Big Data

Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2019

Nearly 90,000 took this comprehensive, annual survey of people who code. Demographics. Most loved, dreaded and wanted technologies. Salary and careers.

insights.stackoverflow.com

You can, but you'll be competing against a very crowded field. You can stay within the Java ecosystem and jump to Scala or Clojure (both in the Java/JVM family) though, and you'll be in much more rarified air:

Stack Overflow Developer Survey 2019

Nearly 90,000 took this comprehensive, annual survey of people who code. Demographics. Most loved, dreaded and wanted technologies. Salary and careers.

insights.stackoverflow.com

BTW, it turns out assembly is pretty low on that graph.

In general the specific code that you know is irrelevant. The entire job is just absorbing new information

RoderickToombs said:
Well yeah it's definitely much more common in startup land and Fortune 500 companies, which I've seen too, but there's also a ton of mom and pop shops that pay devs from india and Ukraine to roll their own e-commerce, inventory systems or whatever. It was actually quite surprising to me how many devs are overseas compared to just a few years ago.

Most of the overseas ventures fail. Generally the best software developers in India live on the west coast of US.

Software engineers are overpaid

Chicken Chaser

Chicken Chaser

Happy New Year!!

flâneur

Happy New Year!!

Account closed at user request

Self-requested ban

Happy New Year!!

Two Pieces

Two Pieces