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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 425 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 239 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,046
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Thoughts on Vietnam? Do socialists think of it as another Dengist country who are inevitably stuck in the state capitalist trap or is it more committed to socialism than China is?

That's really going to depend on the individual socialist's beliefs. Marxist-Leninists will more likely have a defensive or nuanced take (while others will accuse them of being apologists); leftcoms and anarchists and so forth will have a more scathing critique (while MLs will accuse them of being idealists). For my part I think they're certainly primarily capitalist but at the same time they do seem to have an ideological commitment to going beyond it at some point, and they've maintained a lot of collective and non-capitalist programs.

There's a certain Vietnamese youtuber who is known for being an ardent advocate of the Vietnamese system, but the staff here apparently consider her to be a conspiracy theorist.
 

Serpens007

Well, Tosca isn't for everyone
Moderator
Oct 31, 2017
8,135
Chile
It was good while it lasted.

We got presidential primaries yesterday here in Chile. Only two conglomerates participates:

Apruebo Dignidad with Communist Daniel Jadue (Also supported by several other organizations and some other parties), and Gabriel Boric (A more liberal leftist closer to the Democratic Socialism ideals)

Chile Vamos with 4 former Piñera ministers: Joaquin Lavin (Pinochet apologist), Mario Desbordes (former Cop), Ignacio Briones (former Treasury minister who was happy that a $87 covid relief program was approved) and Sebastian Sichel (former center-left Bachelet government aide, turned Piñera minister then president of the State Bank in the most inoperant possible way).

Everything pointed at Jadue and Lavin winning, but Gabriel Boric and Sebastian Sichel took the win, and by a good margin. It was gonna be great having a Communist and who also comes from a palestinian family to have a clear chance at the government presidency, but the last couple of weeks Boric had a much better campaign. Anti-communist sentiment and the cuban crisis also may have helped people in deciding against Jadue, since the communist party and his stance on it, even if condemning human right abuse and stuff, wasn't as adamant as that of Boric.

Luckily both Jadue and Boric government program are pretty similar and Jadue already supports Boric, so in that regard we're good. Many people don't trust Boric because he's been a bit of a contrarian in certain matters. I'm one of them, but I'll probably vote for the collective regardless. It'll still be far better than the probable Center candidates of the zombified Concertacion (The party of the "left" that continued and deepened neoliberalism in the country for 20+ years).

In any case, what says a lot is that this was the most voted primary in our history. And the Left Apruebo Dignidad got way more votes than the whole others combined. So much that Daniel Jadue, who lost, still got more votes than Sebastian Sichel.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,376
So, comrades, let us not pay tribute to Europe by creating .. societies which draw their inspiration from her .. For Europe, for ourselves, & for humanity, comrades, we must turn over a new leaf, we must work out new concepts & try to set afoot a new man.

Happy birthday to Frantz Fanon, the godfather of black Marxism.

fanon3.jpg
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,376

So is it appropriate to point out that Biden is currently doubling down on imperialist Trump policy, or will that cost us seats in the midterms
 

OneEyedKing

Member
Oct 25, 2017
452
If he cares so much about crackdowns on protestors then maybe he should also do something about Israel or, you know, American police. But hey that just doesn't line up with our imperial interests. Fuck Biden always.
 
Oct 27, 2017
797
Berkeley, CA
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there still a sense of competition in a socialist society? Since in a socialist society, while a group of proletariats owns private property (aka the means of production), there is still a motivation to make better products than another group of proletariats making the same kind of product at least until the point where production and automation increases so much that work isn't needed. I was thinking this could be the counter to the claim that socialism doesn't motivate work. Or am I on the wrong track here?

Also, how and why does the need for money and states disappear when we transition from a socialist society to a communist society? Is it because at that point productivity and automation is so good that people can get what they need and want trivially?
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,238
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there still a sense of competition in a socialist society? Since in a socialist society, while a group of proletariats owns private property (aka the means of production), there is still a motivation to make better products than another group of proletariats making the same kind of product at least until the point where production and automation increases so much that work isn't needed. I was thinking this could be the counter to the claim that socialism doesn't motivate work. Or am I on the wrong track here?
We don't need a bajillion models of cellphones if that's what you're talking about.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there still a sense of competition in a socialist society? Since in a socialist society, while a group of proletariats owns private property (aka the means of production), there is still a motivation to make better products than another group of proletariats making the same kind of product at least until the point where production and automation increases so much that work isn't needed. I was thinking this could be the counter to the claim that socialism doesn't motivate work. Or am I on the wrong track here?

Also, how and why does the need for money and states disappear when we transition from a socialist society to a communist society? Is it because at that point productivity and automation is so good that people can get what they need and want trivially?
You'd likely see more collaborative efforts. Even in a market socialist society, instead of proles working against each other for market dominance, you'd see more work with one another for mutual benefit of their respective businesses. That wouldn't be universally true, and there would still be areas where there would be competition in market socialism (mostly in things like industrial design, aesthetics and interface), but it'd certainly be more true now than it has been under capitalism.
But it ultimately depends on how you would structure the society under socialism, as market socialism isn't the only option, though it is possibly the method with the least amount of friction at the start.
I posted on this subject extensively some months back, as well.
 
Oct 27, 2017
797
Berkeley, CA
You'd likely see more collaborative efforts. Even in a market socialist society, instead of proles working against each other for market dominance, you'd see more work with one another for mutual benefit of their respective businesses. That wouldn't be universally true, and there would still be areas where there would be competition in market socialism (mostly in things like industrial design, aesthetics and interface), but it'd certainly be more true now than it has been under capitalism.
But it ultimately depends on how you would structure the society under socialism, as market socialism isn't the only option, though it is possibly the method with the least amount of friction at the start.
I posted on this subject extensively some months back, as well.

Thank you for your informative posts! I wasn't aware of the term market socialism and didn't know I was talking about that lol

Would such a model eliminate excess competition/unneeded production such as the 'bajillion models of cellphones' the previous user was talking about?

Also, do you think market socialism is a good step to take in implementing socialism/communism or should we support more of a market abolitionist approach?
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Sorry if this is a stupid question but is there still a sense of competition in a socialist society? Since in a socialist society, while a group of proletariats owns private property (aka the means of production), there is still a motivation to make better products than another group of proletariats making the same kind of product at least until the point where production and automation increases so much that work isn't needed. I was thinking this could be the counter to the claim that socialism doesn't motivate work. Or am I on the wrong track here?

Also, how and why does the need for money and states disappear when we transition from a socialist society to a communist society? Is it because at that point productivity and automation is so good that people can get what they need and want trivially?

So this gets into what exactly we mean when we talk about "socialism". The term predates Marx, but almost everyone associates it with Marx, and so Marxian ideas tend to dominate socialist discussion. However, a traditional, orthodox Marxist definition of socialism precludes the existence of markets within socialism, because socialism is not merely the control of the proletariat over the means of production but a whole new mode of production in which the law of value no longer operates. This means you cannot have markets, which function entirely because of the law of value. For Marx, socialism and communism are synonyms, and there is merely a lower and higher stage which gradually morphs. In Lenin's time, this came to be separated into "socialism" as the lower stage and "communism" as the higher stage. But for Marx, the dictatorship of the proletariat is not a synonym for socialism. You pass through the dictatorship to get to socialism. In socialism, as Marx understood it, the workers democratically operate their workplaces and societies such that they are able to produce for human need rather than private profit. This is what the Soviets were gunning for with Gosplan, but they fell short. But for Marx, the whole idea of "market socialism" would be contradictory, like calling something a "communist state".

In the USSR they tried to get people to "cooperatively" compete with socialist competition.

Regarding how and when money and states disappear, nobody knows. Marx didn't want to dabble in that because it could only be a result of the conditions of the time. But the basic idea is that money stops making sense when the mode of production is so advanced that markets are no longer necessary - and for this I think automation is an obvious requirement. Basically the law of value breaks down when you can produce so much without a need for human input that you can just pick and choose. One of the best intuitive descriptions I've seen of this actually comes from a years-old reddit post, of all things, which said: "A fully automated factory would be like a Natural factory; like a tree that grows shoes or a cloud that rains refrigerators." (https://www.reddit.com/r/communism1...rhaps_a_silly_question_but_why_cant_machines/)

States exist to protect the interests of particular classes over the means of production, and so when that challenge has been overcome, there is theoretically no more need for a state.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,731
Even come a time where markets themselves disappear, there'd still be ample room for inventors and craftspeople to compete with better and more accomplished designs for things such as cellphones (to return to that example): more coherent and longer-range signal, less power draw, fewer waste materials, more reusable and less toxic materials, more efficient software, etc. We don't have to hold the gun of starvation or poverty over peoples' heads to encourage friendly competition or innovation... in fact, people free to pursue such without worrying along these lines will have much more time, energy, and headspace to devote to it (as Marx himself remarked many moons ago).
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
Thank you for your informative posts! I wasn't aware of the term market socialism and didn't know I was talking about that lol

Would such a model eliminate excess competition/unneeded production such as the 'bajillion models of cellphones' the previous user was talking about?

Also, do you think market socialism is a good step to take in implementing socialism/communism or should we support more of a market abolitionist approach?
Market socialism is and always will be in my mind the very first stepping stone to the world beyond it at best, though there are options to jump right over it.
Excessive production, however, will only end with either standardization of certain objects produced (determining them as a physical utility like we treat service utilities such as power, water, heating, etc) under market socialism or when the means of production is a societal "ownership", particularly one where price systems are eliminated and we can begin a safe transition to planned economies.
I am personally about market abolition, but this is because I am a price system abolitionist at heart. Again, at best, it's a stepping stone.

There is still a basis for competition in a marketless society, but the competition isn't as cutthroat as it doesn't have dire consequences for failure that competition under capitalism generates. When the moment where we evolve past markets and price systems arises, competition that remains will likely be driven by renown and acclaim.
Capitalism rarely gives credence to these drivers of activity unless some monetary value can be extracted from them (and even then, corporate entities usually try to take the credit rather than the individual(s) themselves), but without price systems, their place in human motivation becomes much more prominent, because they are part of an over-arching human motivation: legacy.
In capitalism, wealth becomes the most important and powerful legacy one can offer the world, because it often grants all the others (such as through the corporate equivalent of "stolen valour" I mentioned earlier), especially renown's cousin, prestige.
But in a world without a price system, all the other means of creating legacies would undoubtedly bubble up to the forefront. Certain work still does value such legacies for individuals even under capitalism; doctors who come up with new surgical techniques or discover new ailments are often granted renown and acclaim, but that typically is followed by wealth that those things can generate for them.
New ideas and innovations would be the brass ring some strive for in lieu of a competitive edge in a market. So even if there's no corporations and, as an example, there's only one model of refrigerator and everyone is working to design the best, most efficient and most reconfigurable kind of refrigerator, whoever designs them in a way that makes them more efficient, more repairable, etc. earns a bit of renown for their work and are lifted up by their fellow engineers and scientists for a job well done. It leaves something to compete for (to be exalted above one's peers and create a legacy), but removes the desperation.
 
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Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
I worked overseas during most of my 30-year CIA career, often in countries run by authoritarian regimes, and I have seen plenty of official government indoctrination in schools. Here's a rule of thumb: If your kid comes home from school talking about Soviet assault rifles in a good way, there's probably political indoctrination going on in their classroom. If they come home discussing actual historical events, however unpleasant, it's not indoctrination. It's education.

These people have zero, literally zero, self-awareness.
 

Terrell

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,624
Canada
"GOP voters, stop being angry at critical race theory, be angry at socialism like we've conditioned you to be!"

The narrator: "Instead, they got angry at both and conflated the two even more."
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,235
I wanted to share my excitement that we've grown strong mutual aid networks in all three of my surrounding neighborhoods now. I've found my politics have changed course a bit over the last year and a half and it's been exciting to see them flourish. The next steps will be to continue spreading outward and link them all together like power rangers.

Edited out some rudeness
 
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OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I wanted to share my excitement that we've grown strong mutual aid networks in all three of my surrounding neighborhoods now. I've found my politics have changed course a bit over the last year and a half and it's been exciting to see them flourish. The next steps will be to continue spreading outward and link them all together like power rangers.

Edited out some rudeness

Congrats, nothing wrong with celebrating non-exploitative success.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Edit: Tweet removed. The account in question was previously reported here for promoting broad conspiracy theories about Vietnamese Americans planning bombings in Vietnam.

[1:31 AM]

What, like this?

HANOI — Vietnam listed a U.S.-based group still loyal to the now defunct state of South Vietnam as a terrorist organization on Tuesday, the Ministry of Public Security (MPS) said.

The California-based Provisional Government of Vietnam, led by U.S. citizen Dao Minh Quan, established groups inside Vietnam to "execute acts of terrorism and sabotage, and assassinate officials", the ministry said in a statement.

...

In late December, a Vietnamese court jailed 15 people for their part in an alleged April bomb plot by Quan's group at Tan Son Nhat airport, the transport hub which serves Ho Chi Minh City — formerly known as Saigon, the capital of South Vietnam.

Fifteen people acted on instructions from an overseas group which had used social media to spread propaganda and recruit its members, local media said, citing the court indictment.

...

The group "planted fuel bombs in the car park and at the arrival hall at Tan Son Nhat International Airport" in April, 2017," Tuesday's MPS statement said.

www.nbcnews.com

Vietnam lists U.S.-based Vietnamese-American group as 'terrorist' organization

A U.S. Embassy spokesman in Hanoi said the organization is not designated as a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department.

What's the conspiracy here? She's very clearly talking about ideological opponents of the Vietnamese state within the diaspora, not all Vietnamese Americans.

You have to understand that from her perspective, as a communist in Vietnam, where the communists were the victors in the war because they had the legitimate popular support on their side, those who sided with the southern government are the equivalent of Confederates. They're the traitors, the losers, and it's not like the southern government was some sort of bastion of democracy. If someone continues to be actively anti-communist in the diaspora, flying the traitor flag, opposing the government that liberated the country from foreign imperialism, yeah, she's going to dislike them. This whole thing seems to stem from Luna talking about a news story (left out from the original screenshots) where a communist Vietnamese student was getting death threats from anti-communists for taking down a southern flag.

screenshot_20210726-0uyjny.jpg

screenshot_20210726-0osknv.jpg

screenshot_20210726-0ugjvw.jpg


From the Vietnamese perspective, this is no different than if a German student came across a Nazi flag and tore it down.

Considering this was based on a report, I highly suspect there's a some pissy liberal reading the thread who doesn't like Luna and just wanted to get her banned from discussion on Era. I'm not even particularly a fan of Luna - I'm not a Marxist-Leninist, I disagree with a number of her analyses, but I also think it's very helpful to get the perspectives of socialists in self-proclaimed ideologically socialist countries.
 
Last edited:
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
Edit: Tweet removed. The account in question was previously reported here for promoting broad conspiracy theories about Vietnamese Americans planning bombings in Vietnam.

[1:31 AM]
This is a hell of a way to have a discussion. Abuse moderation powers to unwrite what another poster has written, fill their space instead with a misleadingly framed screen grab of off-site content, and reference "previous reporting" that no regular member of this site can cross-check or appeal.
 

zer0blivion

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,721
Canada
There's a new episode of the Red Menace podcast. It's a Q&A episode. I highly recommend it and their other podcast, Rev Left Radio.

pca.st

AMA: Socialism, Climate Chaos, Pedagogy, & Contradictions - Red Menace

Alyson and Breht answer questions from listeners! Topics discussed: Maoism and AES, contradictions present and future, the climate crisis, cryptocurrency, Marxist pedagogy and the role of teachers, reasons to maintain revolutionary optimism, how to...

www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Revolutionary Left Radio.

 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Still doesn't beat the boot-licking the media gives to the likes of Buffett and Gates, and they didn't have to buy a rag to do it, either.

But see, Buffett and Gates have their fake charity racket, which Bezos does not, and Buffett/Gates mainly exploited well-paid white-collar workers (talking about direct exploitation) versus Bezos churning through hundreds of thousands of battered warehouse workers a year. Bezos had to actually buy a rag to get him the same kind of boot-licking treatment. Consequences of being more obviously ruthless, I guess.
 

Deleted member 14735

Oct 27, 2017
930
There's a new episode of the Red Menace podcast. It's a Q&A episode. I highly recommend it and their other podcast, Rev Left Radio.

pca.st

AMA: Socialism, Climate Chaos, Pedagogy, & Contradictions - Red Menace

Alyson and Breht answer questions from listeners! Topics discussed: Maoism and AES, contradictions present and future, the climate crisis, cryptocurrency, Marxist pedagogy and the role of teachers, reasons to maintain revolutionary optimism, how to...

www.revolutionaryleftradio.com

Revolutionary Left Radio.

Haven't heard the newest one yet but have to echo the sentiment, both of those pods are excellent. If you have trouble parsing theory and thinking about it in terms of how to apply it to our current conditions, I don't know of a better resource than Red Menace for that. Rev Left is also very informative and Breht always brings great guests on, there are podcasts I sub to where I'll pick and choose episodes based on topic, but these two I listen to every one.
 

bomma man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
anyone know a good place (ie a book) to start getting into Gramsci? or other writers that discuss organising outside the liberal-democratic apparatus?

I work for what you could probably fairly say is a part of the NGO-complex - a state funded interest group that, by virtue of being reliant on state funding that can always be pulled, has an interest in not sticking its neck out. That said, relative to some of the other completely feckless organisations I have to deal with, we are pretty outspoken (and we're lucky we deal with a state rather than federal issue - as federal funding agreements ban political speech). I think if we had a better theoretical base, the will is there organise.
 
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bomma man

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,071
Who are you referring to here? I haven't been keeping a close eye on Labor.

They've always been bad, at least after they passed Medicare in 1983, but they've chosen to go to the next election with a flat tax of 30% for incomes of $45,000-$200,000 (at the top end it is currently 45%), keeping negative gearing, one of the biggest handouts to landlords on earth (and yet we still have extremely high rents and terrible quality housing), while dropping a health care and dental care expansion (which was already small target means tested out the arse bullshit anyway). They've dropped it recently, but their attack against the government's text book Keynesian response to the pandemic last year was... debt and deficit fear mongering. This is state rather than federal, but this quote from the QLD housing minister on their weak as piss rental reforms completely Jokerfied me:


"The proposal that a fixed-term lease should not end on the mutually agreed date, breaches property rights protected under the Human Rights Act 2019, not to mention basic contract law."

this is a government that is more than happy to lock up 10 year old Aboriginal kids, so citing human rights legislation takes some real chutzpah, not to mention that the proposed reform almost certainly wouldn't fall conflict with the HRA (a statutory bill of rights they can circumvent pretty easily) anyway.

and of course, there is bipartisan support for any expansion of the security state and our offshore concentration camps proposed by the libs, but that's nothing new.

If you have the time, this article has a really good short history of how and why Labor sold out labour and embraced neo-liberalism back in the 80s (and served as the blueprint for Clinton and Blair).

The PM at the time was even a fucking US asset! after the CIA had a role in deposing the previous ALP PM!