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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

Deleted member 14459

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Oct 27, 2017
1,874
Anyone have suggestions on good reads from Verso? Their May Day sale is still going on, I'm picking up the two Invention of the White Race volumes and figured I'd pop in here to ask in case anyone has particular suggestions.

Most of their stuff is excellent. Depends what you are looking for. I bought 'The Liberal Defence of Murder' by Richard Seymour, which was great, also the new Mike Davis book 'Set the Night on Fire' is great (still reading), The Walter Rodney books they have are great etc. etc. :D
 

Deleted member 7130

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Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Doing some cursory research on the state of Kerala including pictures it seems really cool and beautiful and I think I want to live there lol.
Several communist run areas are seriously kicking covid's ass, in stark contrast to the shitshow most capitalist strongholds are running. Vietnam putting America and France to shame. AGAIN.
King shit, we must bow to the most intelligent and beautiful person here.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520

oZcQ3dP.gif
 

Juan29.Zapata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,353
Colombia

I have been completely surprised at how colonialist photographs for these exploration magazines are actually. That famous NatGeo photograph of the Afghan girl with piercing blue eyes taken by Steve McCurry has quite the back story.

While McCurry became famous and prolific after taking the picture, the woman in question remained suffering from the conflict in her land, without winning a single cent.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I have been completely surprised at how colonialist photographs for these exploration magazines are actually. That famous NatGeo photograph of the Afghan girl with piercing blue eyes taken by Steve McCurry has quite the back story.

While McCurry became famous and prolific after taking the picture, the woman in question remained suffering from the conflict in her land, without winning a single cent.
Can't say i'm shocked.

I hate this world.
 

Deleted member 14459

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Oct 27, 2017
1,874
I'm sure many here are familiar with the history of the communist movement in Kerala - a history and its context which needs to be understood and appreciated when thinking of particular learnings / aims can be decontextualized / reproduced. For those not so familiar, this gives a fairly good overview: https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/36088/7/07_chapter1.pdf

The best book written on the topic is arguably "Struggle for Hegemony in India " if you can get hold of it - it's actually three volumes.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
I'm sure many here are familiar with the history of the communist movement in Kerala - a history and its context which needs to be understood and appreciated when thinking of particular learnings / aims can be decontextualized / reproduced. For those not so familiar, this gives a fairly good overview: https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/36088/7/07_chapter1.pdf

The best book written on the topic is arguably "Struggle for Hegemony in India " if you can get hold of it - it's actually three volumes.

What's the source for the PDF? It says Chapter 1 but it doesn't give the author or title.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
I was under the impression that community warring was something that wouldn't be allowed going forward yet I've seen PoliEra calling out people on this thread.

B-Dubs?
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507

Here and here. One call out specifically about the community as a whole and another towards a member, personally.

(don't go argue with them, please)

I'm 100% done with people getting away with erasure of us like we're not in the same or worse circumstances.

Half the people they're complaining about are PoC and LGBTQ+. Are our voices only important when we prop up hegemony or can we digress a little without people implying we're priviledged or Trump supporters?
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
Here and here. One call out specifically about the community as a whole and another towards a member, personally.

(don't go argue with them, please)

I'm 100% done with people getting away with erasure of us like we're not in the same or worse circumstances.

Half the people they're complaining about are PoC and LGBTQ+. Are our voices only important when we prop up hegemony or can we digress a little without implying we're priviledged or Trump supporters?
Ohhh. Poliera.

Ehh, Yeah, you're not going to get anywhere on that score.

Best to just drop it.
 

Deleted member 5086

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Oct 25, 2017
4,571
Here and here. One call out specifically about the community as a whole and another towards a member, personally.

(don't go argue with them, please)

I'm 100% done with people getting away with erasure of us like we're not in the same or worse circumstances.

Half the people they're complaining about are PoC and LGBTQ+. Are our voices only important when we prop up hegemony or can we digress a little without people implying we're priviledged or Trump supporters?
Nobody reported it, and Dubs is supposed to be on break. I'd agree that the generalisation is unhelpful. In the future I'd recommend reporting such posts.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
Nobody reported it, and Dubs is supposed to be on break. I'd agree that the generalisation is unhelpful. In the future I'd recommend reporting such posts.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. The reason I @'d him is because he was the one who made the staff post about it originally.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,208
I've been reading Anti-Oedipus for a second time after years and years, and this book is blowing my mind.
 

phazedplasma

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,855
I just read through that biden cultural thread. Wew.

I really cant get over people comparing bush to trump like bush is some kind of saint who gives michelle obama candy and all is forgiven.

I get a lot of people on here are younger but man..it wasnt THAT long ago.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I just read through that biden cultural thread. Wew.

I really cant get over people comparing bush to trump like bush is some kind of saint who gives michelle obama candy and all is forgiven.

I get a lot of people on here are younger but man..it wasnt THAT long ago.
It's got nothing to do with youth.

It's the liberal mindset.
 

Deleted member 4346

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Oct 25, 2017
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I just read through that biden cultural thread. Wew.

I really cant get over people comparing bush to trump like bush is some kind of saint who gives michelle obama candy and all is forgiven.

I get a lot of people on here are younger but man..it wasnt THAT long ago.

Trump has given liberals a civility fetish. Even though he's a prototypical conservative Republican in terms of policy.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,120
I just read through that biden cultural thread. Wew.

I really cant get over people comparing bush to trump like bush is some kind of saint who gives michelle obama candy and all is forgiven.

I get a lot of people on here are younger but man..it wasnt THAT long ago.

I've also learned it's apparently taboo to discuss Obama's failures and war crimes nowadays because Trump is worse.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
User warned: inappropriate generalizations and offsite drama
I've also learned it's apparently taboo to discuss Obama's failures and war crimes nowadays because Trump is worse.
I've also learned to just not waste my time with liberals on here, because i don't want to get perm'd.... Again.

Esp as i've heard that off-site, they try to think up ways to ban bait us.

Just not worth the heartache. Ya know.
 

Deleted member 82

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It's got nothing to do with youth.

It's the liberal mindset.

If anything, I'd expect younger folks (those who were basically too young to remember the Bush jr. years well) to be less sympathetic towards him.

W. Bush's main political legacy is 1) waging war against Irak, 2) doing so under false pretenses for oil, and 3) getting tons of people killed in the process (duh). If you're young, you don't know or care about his supposed "a guy you could have a beer with"/big doofus personality. To a big chunk of Zoomers, he's just as good as his record is, i.e. pretty bad.

Now, people who knew him and can compare him with Trump on a superficial level? People who mostly care about decorum and civility? Yeah, they'll absolutely defend him and say Trump is unequivocally worse. The reality is that they're both really bad in their own ways of course, but one of them is just more obnoxious about it than the other.
 

phazedplasma

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,855
Its so much easier talking to liberals about this stuff in real life. I see yall going to battle in these threads and i dont know how you do it.

The splintering off into discord is happening in all communities on this site to.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,208
I have to be honest, psychoanalytical stuff was never my wheelhouse. I think it's just the verbiage used, because the ideas themselves are certainly interesting.

They do maintain the diction of psychoanalysis, so it might be tough to get on board with. But their use of the Oedipal figure, neurosis, and repression is to replace them with schizophrenia and productive desires. So they get rid of the formulaic parts of psychoanalysis to describe desire or ego in Lacan and Freud that are all about individuals and talk about collectivities instead (although they do like Freud because Freud is dope). That might still sound too stuck in psychoanalysis, but I think they use the concepts in a really neat way.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,208
Also from Foucault's preface to Anti-Oedipus:

Paying a modest tribute to Saint Francis de Sales, one might say that Anti-Oedipus is an Introduction to the Non-Fascist Life.

This art of living counter to all forms of fascism, whether already present or impending, carries with it a certain number of essential principles which I would summarize as follows if I were to make this great book into a manual or guide for everyday life:
  • Free political action from all unitary and totalizing paranoia.
  • Develop action, thought, and desires by proliferation, juxtaposition, and disjunction, and not by subdivision and pyramidal hierarchization.
  • Withdraw allegiance from the old categories of the Negative (law, limit, castration, lack, lacuna), which Western thought has so long held sacred as a form of power and an access to reality. Prefer what is positive and multiple, difference over uniformity, flows over unities, mobile arrangements over systems. Believe that what is productive is not sedentary but nomadic.
  • Do not think that one has to be sad in order to be militant, even though the thing one is fighting is abominable. It is the connection of desire to reality (and not its retreat into the forms of representation) that possesses revolutionary force.
  • Do not use thought to ground a political practice in Truth; nor political action to discredit, as mere speculation, a line of thought. Use political practice as an intensifier of thought, and analysis as a multiplier of the forms and domains for the intervention of political action.
  • Do not demand of politics that it restore the "rights" of the individual, as philosophy has defined them. The individual is the product of power. What is needed is to "de-individualize" by means of multiplication and displacement, diverse combinations. The group must not be the organic bond uniting hierarchized individuals, but a constant generator of de-individualization.
  • Do not become enamored of power.
 
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sphagnum

sphagnum

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16,058
[*]Do not use thought to ground a political practice in Truth; nor political action to discredit, as mere speculation, a line of thought. Use political practice as an intensifier of thought, and analysis as a multiplier of the forms and domains for the intervention of political action.
[*]Do not demand of politics that it restore the "rights" of the individual, as philosophy has defined them. The individual is the product of power. What is needed is to "de-individualize" by means of multiplication and displacement, diverse combinations. The group must not be the organic bond uniting hierarchized individuals, but a constant generator of de-individualization.

These, in particular, I like.
 
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Mekanos

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Oct 17, 2018
44,120
I just have no interest in having peaceful discussion with people who are going to sit there on their keyboard and dress up the war crimes of people like Bush. I'd rather have a genuine conversation than just tiptoe around my feelings on the matter. I'd ask other posters to do the same. Let us hash it out.
 

Shy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18,520
I just have no interest in having peaceful discussion with people who are going to sit there on their keyboard and dress up the war crimes of people like Bush. I'd rather have a genuine conversation than just tiptoe around my feelings on the matter. I'd ask other posters to do the same. Let us hash it out.
You're not going to get that from them.
 

farmland

Member
Oct 30, 2017
619
Made the mistake of saying Obama is a horrible person and conflating his actions as the head of the US empire with Trump in another thread, liberals really hate people criticising him, it's wild. I'm not American so it's easy to forget how saintly a figure is to some people over there.
 

Mekanos

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Oct 17, 2018
44,120
Made the mistake of saying Obama is a horrible person and conflating his actions as the head of the US empire with Trump in another thread, liberals really hate people criticising him, it's wild. I'm not American so it's easy to forget how saintly a figure is to some people over there.

imo it wouldn't be this bad if Trump wasn't President. Even back during Obama's term most young liberals had mixed feelings on him as President. But Trump is perceived as such an existential threat to a lot of liberals (and for the bad faith lurkers, I'm not saying he isn't awful!) that they will prop up anybody that stands up to Trump, and especially view Obama with rose tinted glasses. People were even saying shit like "I don't like Bloomberg but man those anti-Trump ads are great!"

I think it's still important to push back against the reverent narrative of Obama and the Dems in general. You might not convince the people you're arguing with but people reading might second guess their beliefs. I know when I was a liberal it took some time to accept Obama for what he was.

Just don't let right wingers cling onto your criticisms if you can help it lol.
 

farmland

Member
Oct 30, 2017
619
imo it wouldn't be this bad if Trump wasn't President. Even back during Obama's term most young liberals had mixed feelings on him as President. But Trump is perceived as such an existential threat to a lot of liberals (and for the bad faith lurkers, I'm not saying he isn't awful!) that they will prop up anybody that stands up to Trump, and especially view Obama with rose tinted glasses. People were even saying shit like "I don't like Bloomberg but man those anti-Trump ads are great!"

I think it's still important to push back against the reverent narrative of Obama and the Dems in general. You might not convince the people you're arguing with but people reading might second guess their beliefs. I know when I was a liberal it took some time to accept Obama for what he was.

Just don't let right wingers cling onto your criticisms if you can help it lol.
Nobody's saying the US wouldn't be a better place internally if Obama or the democrats were in charge. I think it's just important to contextualise where he comes from. The big mistake a lot of people seem to be making is in thinking that Trump is an unique abberation, which leads to the narrative that the political economy some how needs to be set back to how it was before he was elected (even though those conditions lead to him taking power!).

Your point about the right is fair enough, that's why I specifically talked about deportations and drones etc. Not many right wingers give a shit about minorities in cages sadly.
 

Mekanos

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Oct 17, 2018
44,120
Nobody's saying the US wouldn't be a better place internally if Obama or the democrats were in charge. I think it's just important to contextualise where he comes from. The big mistake a lot of people seem to be making is in thinking that Trump is an unique abberation, which leads to the narrative that the political economy some how needs to be set back to how it was before he was elected (even though those conditions lead to him taking power!).

Your point about the right is fair enough, that's why I specifically talked about deportations and drones etc. Not many right wingers give a shit about minorities in cages sadly.

I think the mistake a lot of people make is "of course the Obama administration did XYZ, military industrial complex etc. etc." like the forces of government and military are just a force of nature that exists outside of the plans and movements of individuals, and not decisions made by real people. I mean hell Obama gave a speech where he made a joke about drone bombing boys who want to date his daughters. He's not some tragic figure tormented by the mistakes of his administration. He's just one of many enablers of American hegemony.

Here is a good thread on actual things to talk about with the Obama administration:

 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
Made the mistake of saying Obama is a horrible person and conflating his actions as the head of the US empire with Trump in another thread, liberals really hate people criticising him, it's wild. I'm not American so it's easy to forget how saintly a figure is to some people over there.

It is what it is. Obama has saint status. Hell, 1000 years ago back in '11, Maxine Waters went in on him and his protectors:
WaPo: Maxine Waters and Congressional Black Caucus need to be 'unleashed'
We don't put pressure on the president. Let me tell you why. We don't put pressure on the president because y'all love the president. You love the president. You're very proud . . . to have a black man [in the White House] . . . First time in the history of the United States of America.

If we go after the president too hard, you're going after us. . . . When you tell us it's all right and you unleash us, and you tell us you're ready for us to have this conversation, we're ready to have the conversation. . . . All I'm saying to you is, we're politicians. We're elected officials. We are trying to do the right thing and the best thing. When you let us know it is time to let go, we'll let go.
But to criticize Obama was to ask for a beat-down. (Trust me, that threat extends to African American pundits who dare to say something negative.) This, in turn, caused black members of Congress to pull their punches or go mute on important issues for fear of riling up the folks back home who would view them as disloyal.
Or as a friend put it to me yesterday, the relationship between Obama, black members of Congress and their constituents is like that of children of divorced parents. Congress is the mom. Their constituents are the kids. And Obama is the father who's seen only once in a while. Mom won't say anything bad about the father in front of the children because they'll shout back: "Don't talk bad about my father!"

And that's only 1st term. Hell, 2011 was a dark year in general with Bam's Grand Bargain and selling out. Thank god a lot of dems actually pushed back on that. We were also in the middle of completely failing Haiti, droning the middle east, and of course the murder of 16 year old American Abdulrahman al-Awlaki and another teenager that year, shortly after murdering his American father.

and also of course, immigration wasn't really a bright spot that year too (or any year)
www.pewresearch.org

As Deportations Rise to Record Levels, Most Latinos Oppose Obama’s Policy

By a ratio of more than two-to-one (59% versus 27%), Latinos disapprove of the way the Obama administration is handling deportations of unauthorized immigrants.
Disapproval of Obama's policy is most widespread among those who are aware that deportations have risen during his tenure. Among this group, more than three-quarters (77%) disapprove of the way his administration is handling the issue of deportations. Among those who are not aware that an increase has occurred, slightly more than half disapprove.

Awareness of the level of deportations is higher among foreign-born Hispanics than among native-born Hispanics—55% versus 25%. It is even higher among those who are most at risk of deportation. Seven-in-ten (71%) Hispanic immigrants who are not U.S. citizens and do not have a green card—a group that closely aligns with the unauthorized immigrant population2—say the Obama administration has deported more unauthorized immigrants than the Bush administration.

How much of that is willful ignorance on the part of the native born here? And then you realize that this is definitely a trend in every issue that touches the outside world where americans have these massive blinders on.

Don't talk bad about my father!

So we've got excuses for these issues and basically everything else. I've partaken in a few from time to time through the years, but you're right that it's bullshit. We mock "shining city on the hill" rhetoric offered up by xenophobic nationalists, and we lament the idolship of a legitimate monster in Reagan, but don't realize that plenty of americans on the left side have been offering up similar bullshit for our people.

So instead of circling the wagons around the literal evil shit our leaders do, we should've been asking "are we the baddies" - but we don't and as a country I'm not sure we ever will. Mekanos is right with the hegemony aspect as American hegemony is taught and accepted across the aisle. And it doesn't help that most of the time we pretend that we don't even have a problem.
We can't let the others win, because they're worse, and that's it. That's the justification, as ancient as it is, and we'll see it again after the next Democrat has their turn to commit atrocities, make them and their rich friends money at the expense of the rest of the plebes, and then fuck off into the sunset.

It's whatever. That defensive reflex to protect your own is nowhere near uniquely american, but it's really scary when we do it given our reach as THE global projection of power and our penchant for snuffing out a lot of brown and black lives.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
True progressives criticize the systems that exist. If you're working overtime to reify the systems, and working to stifle the criticism, then guess what? You're an active part of it.

And that's what a lot of people don't understand when they see a minority criticizing liberalism. These conversations aren't new.

These are things MLK and Baldwin had been talking about for at least half a century. And not just them, either. We have a body of work that exists with people like Angela Davis and Mariame Kaba—work that speaks harshly of the existent systems and promotes liberation.

I realize it's hard to keep up, but at some point you have to look beyond what's in the surface and acting like liberalism is this great and awesome thing, and start looking into narratives that aren't comfortable—because they're not, they're inconvenient because they require work.

And they require that while everyone else is out there gushing about people like Cuomo and Obama, that you step back and become brave enough to call out their shitty actions. This work demands that while everyone turns a blind eye to people in prisons, in reserves, at the border, homeless—that YOU look at them and advocate for them.

It demands that you look past company sponsored pride parades, or twitter personalities that only tweet to advance their careers. It demands that when you see families separated at the border, you don't just ignore the fact that those camps already existed before Trump decided to stuff them to the brim.

It demands that when you see tonedeaf white women flaunting their wealth during a pandemic, that you don't praise them for it like that's all well and good.

And not everyone is willing to do it. Some people are okay with staying comfortable, some people have the privilege to sit back and accept these things because living as they are is far more comfortable than being labeled things like "Misfit black girls". Or understanding that they will never have the same pull as their more visible and privileged counterparts.

Pointing at Trump for four years is low hanging fruit. It's easy. It's catharsis. You can separate yourself from all the bad things and point towards someone else. That's easy. Extremely so.

But if we're not willing to contend with american hegemony, no matter who promotes it, then we're not having progressive conversations. We're not looking for justice, and we are not progressive.