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What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,657
I'm a Social Democrat myself - I believe in the Welfare State and a strong social safety net that enables society to focus more on humanism and the individual as opposed to the elite class and corporate interests. I believe in a world where humans aren't just treated as consumers, or tiny cogs in the economic automaton, but as the primary beneficiaries of the state's resources and policies and their welfare should unequivocally be the main priority. I believe healthcare and access to education are human rights, and infringing on them in any way (such as forcing people to go into debt or to owe a private entity money) should be outright illegal. I think workers should be on leadership boards as opposed to sales/marketing people.

With that said, I don't believe in destroying the entire framework of Capitalism, abolishing the private property or increasing the size of Government to a massive degree. I also think the current system promotes exactly the opposite of the things I mentioned above, which is why we need to reform Capitalism and reshape it heavily to better serve the needs of humanity as opposed to a select few.

I tend to prefer politicians such as Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders because they're aware of the problems plaguing the current system and are for empowering working people and have the records to prove it. I like Warren because she's really damn good at identifying problems, zooming in on the fine details and solving them. I strongly believe she would be the best possible President in that regard. The reason why I like Sanders is quite different - his rhetoric is more pointed than hers and he's more idealistic, focusing more on statements and ideas rather than problem solving. I think he would make a more effective and inspiring Leader of the Free World in that sense.

I absolutely can't see why anyone would be excited to continue going down the Moderate/compromise path. The stakes are getting higher with each passing year and the challenges will get harder and harder - responding with incrementalism means we're gonna be so far behind eventually that there won't be anything left to do. This is why I'm horrified at the prospect of a milquetoast Biden Presidency that largely follows the same model as Obama. Biden to me doesn't seem capable of solving these incredibly complicated problems that Warren or Sanders could. I fear he would delegate most of his responsibilities to his handlers, people I can't possibly put any trust in.

It's looking pretty bleak and I hope Progressives and Leftists can make the argument that we need a significant shift to the Left in order to not self destruct; it falls on the older moderates to heed the message.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Again, this is not something I'm bringing up because it's important to a specific argument, because I doubt that this thread is going to play host to a heated debate on the Temporal Single System Interpretation or something like that, and it's entirely plausible that you've read as much or more Marx than the thread average and also it's not even something that should be used to gatekeep anyway.

I think earlier on when this thread was new and before half the posters in it got banned, we used to have "deeper" discussions about certain issues (we never got to TSSI, but to be fair, I've always had trouble understanding it), but once the primaries started and it became a fallback for Bernieposting, this thread has overall trended demsoc, which is more broad than deep. I mean, look at the vote count at the top of the thread lol

I do hope once the primaries are over we can shift back some, but at the same time, it's good that we've got an accessible place where people can be eased into socialism without being slammed over the head by academic volumes. Workers don't actually need to know about Marxian minutiae to get the idea of "seize power" after all, though that stuff becomes important once you get to the point of implementation.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
I think earlier on when this thread was new and before half the posters in it got banned, we used to have "deeper" discussions about certain issues (we never got to TSSI, but to be fair, I've always had trouble understanding it), but once the primaries started and it became a fallback for Bernieposting, this thread has overall trended demsoc, which is more broad than deep. I mean, look at the vote count at the top of the thread lol

I do hope once the primaries are over we can shift back some, but at the same time, it's good that we've got an accessible place where people can be eased into socialism without being slammed over the head by academic volumes. Workers don't actually need to know about Marxian minutiae to get the idea of "seize power" after all, though that stuff becomes important once you get to the point of implementation.

I been meaning to ask. Is it ok to discuss electoral politics in this thread?
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
I do hope once the primaries are over we can shift back some, but at the same time, it's good that we've got an accessible place where people can be eased into socialism without being slammed over the head by academic volumes.

I wouldn't worry about that. It's probably way easier to convert, let alone have meaningful conversations with, a demsoc to a more radical form of socialism, communism or anarchism, than to convert a liberal to socialism.

I still don't know where I stand btw. Haven't even voted in the poll yet.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
I voted demsoc but I'm still a baby to all this shit. 2016 radicalized me further left as I saw the limits of liberalism
 

Wordballoons

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,061
Could someone recommend me some entry level reading? From the US but moving to France in May, so anything in either language is fine with me.
 

Vector

Member
Feb 28, 2018
6,657
Can someone walk me through the differences between DemSoc and SocDem? I always thought the US DemSocs mislabeled themselves.
 

IpKaiFung

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,372
Wales
Very briefly:

Democratic Socialism is political democracy in a socialist economy.

Social Democracy is capitalism with a safety net.
 

Pekola

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,507
I already am :)

Make no mistake, I know I've been critical of the dirtbag left, and nor am I telling you all to not be critical of the Dems.

But, do so in a way that isn't hyperbolic. I don't compare Chapo styled leftists with fascists. On the contrary, I've stated on numerous occasions I'll taking an edgy Reddit brocialist to the GOP in a heartbeat.

That's not even a choice that would take more than it takes to hit the button on the voter booth.

No you're not. You've been a horrible ally not just to me, but the minorities in this thread, thinking you can speak over us, and/or tone police us.

Just because you adopted a bit of vernacular and watched one black youtuber doesn't mean you're an authority on the issues. And instead of listening (like you say you do), you circle the wagons and keep telling us how to do things.

That's not allyship. That's you entering spaces that aren't yours, perusing the material, and thinking your ideas are things we haven't heard before.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
Can someone walk me through the differences between DemSoc and SocDem? I always thought the US DemSocs mislabeled themselves.

It's muddled because Bernie always talks about Denmark, but essentially socdems want a capitalist economy with safety nets while demsocs want to use socdem as a springboard to socialism. Socdems are reformists who want to ease our way into worker control of the MoP through parliamentary means, so rather than seize factories and hunt down capitalists and so forth, they support gradual measures that look a whole lot like socdem, but with the goal of surpassing socdem.

The demsocs actually came first, with socdems growing out of them as some socialists became disillusioned with the USSR and decided to just stop with "better capitalism".
 

Wordballoons

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,061
Have you read (or watched or listened to) anything so far? Just want to know what you're already familiar with, if anything.
I've only a surface level knowledge.

I've volunteered with food not bombs and worked on a professional level with prison abolitionist groups in upstate NY. In the course of doing that, I have read marxist critiques of the prison industrial complex, taken in materials from zines, etc. So, nothing substantive - but I won't feel like it's an entirely new language.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
None of them have been successful.

nu5kxojkf8541.jpg
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
Anyway with the incredible technological, social, and cultural achievements humans have achieved across hundreds of thousands of years, I refuse to chain myself to the belief that this is the best we can do and the last 500 years or so of capitalism is going to be the blueprint of humanity forever going forward. Francis Fukuyama was dead wrong.

I personally choose anarchism (after identifying as a demsoc for the last like 2 years) because it seemed like the only logical conclusion with Marx/Engel's belief that the state would become irrelevant if the workers owned the means of production and abolished private property.


I should probably start reading more theory than just Marx and Engel. Anybody know good places to start, especially for anarchism?
 

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
Not only this, but you can look at the self preserving nature of capitalism and at that point in history find out what caused the failure. Its not some problem of the system, but rather the system can not be allowed to exist. Think about it for a second, if communism succeeds who stands to lose the most?
 

Deffers

Banned
Mar 4, 2018
2,402
No you're not. You've been a horrible ally not just to me, but the minorities in this thread, thinking you can speak over us, and/or tone police us.

Just because you adopted a bit of vernacular and watched one black youtuber doesn't mean you're an authority on the issues. And instead of listening (like you say you do), you circle the wagons and keep telling us how to do things.

That's not allyship. That's you entering spaces that aren't yours, perusing the material, and thinking your ideas are things we haven't heard before.
I'm cosigning Pekola here so it's clear they aren't standing alone on this one.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
No you're not. You've been a horrible ally not just to me, but the minorities in this thread, thinking you can speak over us, and/or tone police us.

Just because you adopted a bit of vernacular and watched one black youtuber doesn't mean you're an authority on the issues. And instead of listening (like you say you do), you circle the wagons and keep telling us how to do things.

That's not allyship. That's you entering spaces that aren't yours, perusing the material, and thinking your ideas are things we haven't heard before.
This is a fantastic post. Sometimes, simply listening is the best option, and this is one of those times.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
I'm just gonna say, in a thread where you are discussing and debating the merits of socialism, Bernie's campaign, etc. with multiple minorities, myself included, if you are committed to listening to and boosting the voices of minorities and figuring out how they factor into our worldview, that means listening to us as well.

"Listen to minorities" is a vague platitude that doesn't take into account the different backgrounds, material needs, wealth, generational gaps, and other traits that make these minorities come to different conclusions and viewpoints.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
Not only this, but you can look at the self preserving nature of capitalism and at that point in history find out what caused the failure. Its not some problem of the system, but rather the system can not be allowed to exist. Think about it for a second, if communism succeeds who stands to lose the most?
What's the common thread among the vast majority of regime changes the US has been involved in?
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
What's the common thread among the vast majority of regime changes the US has been involved in?

A turn towards rightwing neoliberalism.
Every. Single. Time.

I'd also like to say that white dudes whitesplaining racism to minorities while calling themselves allies is fucking gross. As a white dude, all i have to say is get some damn perspective and shut up.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,186
Listening to minorities and their lived experiences with racism is good, it's crucial, even. But minorities aren't a monolith that can be flattened into One Agreeable Opinion that makes you safely woke. You should listen to minorities, but you should also contextualize it in the greater world where various dynamics are at play.

If you want to listen to minorities and you're in the socialism OT where minorities are trying to explain to you why communism is awesome, even if you don't agree, you can at least listen and think about what they're saying. Nobody is expecting anybody to change their whole belief system overnight. These are hard questions we are asking ourselves, of society, of history, of people. But if you're here to learn, and you're constantly pushing back against anybody trying to teach you, then it doesn't feel like there is any actual learning happening.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Listening to minorities and their lived experiences with racism is good, it's crucial, even. But minorities aren't a monolith that can be flattened into One Agreeable Opinion that makes you safely woke. You should listen to minorities, but you should also contextualize it in the greater world where various dynamics are at play.

If you want to listen to minorities and you're in the socialism OT where minorities are trying to explain to you why communism is awesome, even if you don't agree, you can at least listen and think about what they're saying. Nobody is expecting anybody to change their whole belief system overnight. These are hard questions we are asking ourselves, of society, of history, of people. But if you're here to learn, and you're constantly pushing back against anybody trying to teach you, then it doesn't feel like there is any actual learning happening.
Real talk.

The thing that brought me over to leftism was I saw the limits of liberalism in addressing racism. lol
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Real talk.

The thing that brought me over to leftism was I saw the limits of liberalism in addressing racism. lol
A big selling point for me was seeing the dynamics of capital working from different angles to exploit the labor of immigrants by maintaining them as a subhuman category in society. Growing up as in immigrant, I had some proximity to that.

Wait...thehunter is white?

So yeah, we got this white guy in here that loves to vanguard about POC in either monolithic or in special pleading narrow focus arguments (depends on what suits his point) to other POC in here. He goes in other threads telling people to "shut up, sit down, listen, shut up" about the experiences of minorities, but comes back up in this thread where he's talking to several minorities and floods the thread with surface level replies that don't really address the things people bring up. His posts often make other statements of fact without citations that contradicts academic concepts, and doesn't take the time to consider that maybe many here have had some lived experiences as a result of their (myself included) identity politics for why they're drawn to socialism and demand the end of the engine of oppression called capitalism.

These aren't the hallmarks of someone taking the time to sit down and listen. TheHunter just wants to appear right or righteous
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
No you're not. You've been a horrible ally not just to me, but the minorities in this thread, thinking you can speak over us, and/or tone police us.

Just because you adopted a bit of vernacular and watched one black youtuber doesn't mean you're an authority on the issues. And instead of listening (like you say you do), you circle the wagons and keep telling us how to do things.

That's not allyship. That's you entering spaces that aren't yours, perusing the material, and thinking your ideas are things we haven't heard before.
I never once told minorities when and where to be angry. The only thing I said ob the matter was we shouldn't ignore any group of minority voters be they old or young black voters.

I offered my insight on how leftists could win over more to their cause.

The only "tone policing" I've even remotely done is say that brocialists suck and maybe don't follow their lead. Which ties into the above.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
I never once told minorities when and where to be angry. The only thing I said ob the matter was we shouldn't ignore any group of minority voters be they old or young black voters.

I offered my insight on how leftists could win over more to their cause.

The only "tone policing" I've even remotely done is say that brocialists suck and maybe don't follow their lead. Which ties into the above.

From Whitey to Whitey, I gotta be honest with you.

You preached to me the virtue of just shutting up and listening to Black people in another thread, saying how much good it did you. Yet here you are, fighting back in a thread where a good number of participants - possibly the majority - are minorities when they tell you you're not being a good ally.

This is where you can either keep pushing back, or "shut up and listen".
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive and disruptive behaviour towards minority members in a community thread.
From Whitey to Whitey, I gotta be honest with you.

You preached to me the virtue of just shutting up and listening to Black people in another thread, saying how much good it did you. Yet here you are, fighting back in a thread where a good number of participants - possibly the majority - are minorities when they tell you you're not being a good ally.

This is where you can either keep pushing back, or "shut up and listen".
I don't mind listening.

I don't like being attacked for something I didn't even do.

But alas, if you all feel that screaming about the rich at everything and everyone is gonna yield you results then fine.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,334
I think earlier on when this thread was new and before half the posters in it got banned, we used to have "deeper" discussions about certain issues (we never got to TSSI, but to be fair, I've always had trouble understanding it), but once the primaries started and it became a fallback for Bernieposting, this thread has overall trended demsoc, which is more broad than deep. I mean, look at the vote count at the top of the thread lol

I do hope once the primaries are over we can shift back some, but at the same time, it's good that we've got an accessible place where people can be eased into socialism without being slammed over the head by academic volumes. Workers don't actually need to know about Marxian minutiae to get the idea of "seize power" after all, though that stuff becomes important once you get to the point of implementation.
Agreed on all counts (especially TSSI)! As I've mentioned I don't post a lost but I do read this thread every so often; I recall a while back there was a discussion on MMT that I meant to contribute to but never got around to. But yeah, not interested in gatekeeping, more putting forth ideas as to how and why there might be barriers/hostility to non-socialist participation compared to say, anti-capitalist curious folks looking to engage in dialogue. Although looking at recent posts there's clearly more going on in that regard than the generalised points I was trying to emphasise.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
No one is doing that lol that's what we mean when we say you're not really listening
Then why are you getting hostile and making implications about my posts that don't even exist?

I could understand if I specifically started speaking about minorities and what they should do. I never once said what they should do. I said they are diverse and we shouldn't throw out any of their views.

How that translate to me telling minorities what to do is beyond me.
 

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
I don't mind listening.

I don't like being attacked for something I didn't even do.

But alas, if you all feel that screaming about the rich at everything and everyone is gonna yield you results then fine.
Dude, do you think minority leftists believe racism isnt real or something? Wtf is this. The vast majority here will tell you it exists but it cant even begin to be solved without addressing structural and hierarchical power first.
 

Deleted member 176

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
37,160
Then why are you getting hostile and making implications about my posts that don't even exist?

I could understand if I specifically started speaking about minorities and what they should do. I never once said what they should do. I said they are diverse and we shouldn't throw out any of their views.

How that translate to me telling minorities what to do is beyond me.
People are informing you of implications in your post that do exist that you are evidently unaware of. They're letting you know as a courtesy so you don't make the same mistake in less welcoming places.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Dude, do you think minority leftists believe racism isnt real or something? Wtf is this. The vast majority here will tell you it exists but it cant even begin to be solved without addressing structural and hierarchical power first.
Are you seeing invisible words?

Where in God's name did I say lefty minorities think racism?

I think we're done here.
 

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
Are you seeing invisible words?

Where in God's name did I say lefty minorities think racism?

I think we're done here.
You said us yelling at the rich is fruitless when defending yourself on listening to minorities. We speak on hierarchical power that will continue to fuck us forever, and we just end up having this conversation over and over again.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,212
Something I learned from a teacher a long time ago was they preferred "minoritized" over "minority," since it implies the social relations and active processes of minoritization rather than a kind of state of being. What do you all think?
 

Quzar

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
1,166
Something I learned from a teacher a long time ago was they preferred "minoritized" over "minority," since it implies the social relations and active processes of minoritization rather than a kind of state of being. 6What do you all think?
Language evolves and changes over time. Sure its useful to explain some things maybe but it really doesnt address anything. Just give everyone the ability to access everything and you'll see race relations change in a few generations. At least, imo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
Imagine calling socialism screaming at the rich in a socialism OT

to all of the "friendly travellers" in this thread past and future, refusing to recognize that the people in this community see socialism, in all its myriad forms, as a lifelong commitment to study and activism will never be taken well

And then to label some of us as hostile for not taking the unsolicited advice at face and feeling attacked by the suggestion that you check yourselself

keeping this shit up is a indictment of either your perception or your character
 

Luminish

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,508
Denver
Are you seeing invisible words?

Where in God's name did I say lefty minorities think racism?

I think we're done here.
For all the lecturing about listening, you really don't know how to do it. You're literally just declaring the conversation over while minorities try to point out how you're not being the best ally here.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,212
Language evolves and changes over time. Sure its useful to explain some things maybe but it really doesnt address anything. Just give everyone the ability to access everything and you'll see race relations change in a few generations. At least, imo.

Yeah, it doesn't address things themselves and is a small language shift. But I think what I like about it is that "minoritized" keeps systems of oppression in the foreground. So for me it alludes to a politics of transformation (socialism) that would dismantle those systems rather than a politics of representation (capitalism) that keeps those systems in place.
 

Deleted member 18360

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
Something I learned from a teacher a long time ago was they preferred "minoritized" over "minority," since it implies the social relations and active processes of minoritization rather than a kind of state of being. What do you all think?

I haven't thought about this case before but I definitely like functionalist terms or process-based metaphysics more than terms or reality claims centered around definite or static states of being. Like (I presume) your teacher, I think the latter suggests a kind of essentialism that undermines how these phenomena are actively and socially constructed. But I'm also a Buddhist, and Buddhist ontology is entirely process based/doesn't admit 'substance', so I'm pretty familiar with this conflict or preference largely from my background in that.