• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

What tendency/ideology do you best align with?

  • Anarchism

    Votes: 125 12.0%
  • Marxism

    Votes: 86 8.2%
  • Marxism-Leninism

    Votes: 79 7.6%
  • Left Communism

    Votes: 19 1.8%
  • Democratic Socialism

    Votes: 423 40.6%
  • Social Democracy

    Votes: 238 22.8%
  • Other

    Votes: 73 7.0%

  • Total voters
    1,043

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
Post-Tuesday podcast from the TrillBillies.



I've never heard this podcast before but I listened to this at work and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting. Definitely want to listen to these guys more.

I think this gave me a little optimism moving forward, that whatever happens with Bernie, there's in infrastructure and a passionate coalition. That can be mobilized whether it's to win a Presidency or something else.

It's hard though. I said I'd vote for any Dem in the general that isn't Bloomberg, and thankfully that crisis is averted. But Christ, how is Biden supposed to last 6 months in a general election when he can barely string together a sentence? This feels like straight up elder abuse to keep him going like this. Even if by some miracle he wins, I have no faith he will free the children at the border or enact meaningful legislature towards climate change. I'm pretty much voting strictly for Supreme Court justices.

He better pick a damn good VP because I think there's a very good chance he doesn't make it through four years of the most stressful job in the world with his mental faculties intact.
 

Icolin

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,235
Midgar
god the discourse on this site about bernie vs the establishment makes my blood boil and i'm not even american

just sickening bootlicking and denial of how broken the system is

let's just say that i'll stick around these parts more from now on
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
User Warned: Hostility against a community
god the discourse on this site about bernie vs the establishment makes my blood boil and i'm not even american

just sickening bootlicking and denial of how broken the system is

let's just say that i'll stick around these parts more from now on

Yeah, it's only gotten worse over the past couple days now that Bernie's candidacy is in jeopardy. The basic libs, who are just interested in gotchas and telling you why change can't happen, are coming out of the woodwork. And I'm just talking about the Primary thread here. I hear PoliERA is an absolute cesspool, but I never go there for my own mental sake.

We were just talking about this over on FranceERA, but it's shocking how many US citizens on ERA aren't willing to even engage in legitimate discussions about how broken and undemocratic their electoral system is. They can't even address the concept of the Democratic party trying to artificially manufacturing consent around a candidate and against another without framing it as "Bernie Bros being sore losers who hate democracy". They're brainwashed children who don't want to think about the broader picture OR the actual specific, dramatic issues their fellow citizens (and immigrant people) are confronted with on a daily basis.

Expect things to become worse as/if Bernie loses more in the coming weeks. They'll just go "lol so much for the progressive coalition ! What a crazy old loser" when they should be sad and angry about it. But hey, as long as they're not part of the dirty poors who'll actually die from lack of healthcare, it's all fair game, right ?

We're a friendly bunch though <3
 

Icolin

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,235
Midgar
Yeah, it's only gotten worse over the past couple days now that Bernie's candidacy is in jeopardy. The basic libs, who are just interested in gotchas and telling you why change can't happen, are coming out of the woodwork. And I'm just talking about the Primary thread here. I hear PoliERA is an absolute cesspool, but I never go there for my own mental sake.

We were just talking about this over on FranceERA, but it's shocking how many US citizens on ERA aren't willing to even engage in legitimate discussions about how broken and undemocratic their electoral system is. They can't even address the concept of the Democratic party trying to artificially manufacturing consent around a candidate and against another without framing it as "Bernie Bros being sore losers who hate democracy". They're brainwashed children who don't want to think about the broader picture OR the actual specific, dramatic issues their fellow citizens (and immigrant people) are confronted with on a daily basis.

Expect things to become worse as/if Bernie loses more in the coming weeks. They'll just go "lol so much for the progressive coalition ! What a crazy old loser" when they should be sad and angry about it. But hey, as long as they're not part of the dirty poors who'll actually die from lack of healthcare, it's all fair game, right ?

We're a friendly bunch though <3

the way they interact with politics is so messed up. they legit get giddy when people fighting for their lives and basic human rights fail

wild how effective the imperialist and capitalist indoctrination is; that creation of unfathomable unwavering trust in the system and establishment, and ANYTHING even remotely criticizing the state of things is shot down as being 'salty'. they react to leftist concerns the same way console war diehards react to something being exclusive on their platform of choice lmao

i mean i get that discourse on the internet consists of a ton of trolling but it's still astounding.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
If you aren't angry living in this country, you either aren't paying attention or you don't care.

And I don't mean just being angry because Trump is President.
 

Deleted member 25600

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,701
I've never heard this podcast before but I listened to this at work and I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting. Definitely want to listen to these guys more.

The first one I listened to was The Devil's Milkshake last week, where they talk about a town that smells like shit when it rains because of the local agrigulture industry...but the residents have no choice but to keep voting for the people that let it happen because it's the only major employer. I enjoyed that episode a lot.

 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Yeah, it's only gotten worse over the past couple days now that Bernie's candidacy is in jeopardy. The basic libs, who are just interested in gotchas and telling you why change can't happen, are coming out of the woodwork. And I'm just talking about the Primary thread here. I hear PoliERA is an absolute cesspool, but I never go there for my own mental sake.

Every now and then, I drop by this thread to lurk. Then I read shit like this, and I just hate myself for even being on Era, let-alone being in the thread.

We're a friendly bunch though <3

You literally called the other political thread I post in a "cesspool", and talk about "basic libs". You, certainly, are not friendly.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
brutal honesty can be friendly

cesspool might be a little harsh but I would at least say it is host to a carnival of poor takes

And this thread isn't? "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" and all that.

Also, "brutal honesty" only works if it's done with a smile and a genuine wish to help. "Basic libs" talk is patronizing and shitty.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
sometimes libs are basic I dont know what to tell you
in sorry feelings got hurt

if this thread is really making you question staying on this forum no one is making you stay
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
sometimes libs are basic I dont know what to tell you
in sorry feelings got hurt

I mean, I don't care, I just find it lacking a ton of self-awareness that "We're a friendly bunch" came at the end of a post shitting on other threads and other liberals.

if this thread is really making you question staying on this forum no one is making you stay

*shrugs* The fact that you take this passive-aggressive manner also says something. I'm fully aware no one is making me stay.

But as this is so unwelcome, I think I'll just shuffle out of here and unwatch the thread I've been watching since it was first created. Because this really is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 
OP
OP
sphagnum

sphagnum

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,058
So where do we go from here?

Many people over the last 24 hours have sworn off electoralism. More power to you, if that's what you want to do. I would suggest turning your energies to labor struggles and trying to build alternate centers of power. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think LARPing with the Austin Red Guard will do anything.

For everyone else, these are my not-so-organized ramblings.

I've been spending the day processing what happened last night, and while some people will still hold out hope for a Bernie comeback, I think it's pretty clear that Biden will take the nomination. A sober analysis of the results shows that Bernie failed to turn out the youth and that he continues to struggle with particular voting blocs. We have to be able to come to grips with this if we're going to make any progress going forward.

Bernie's campaign and his theory of change are founded on the idea that large numbers of people don't vote because they see all politicians as part of the same, bought off class of bloodsuckers, but that if you speak to them and offer them something that will benefit them materially, you can mobilize them to vote. As an outsider to the Democratic Party, Bernie rejected the typical strategies employed by other Dems in favor of bringing in a new alliance of voters who would presumably be in favor of his cause. This didn't happen - or, rather, there were simply more people willing to vote for the safe choice of Biden than people willing to take a gamble on the more radical alternative. His campaign formed a sharpened voting base that was meant to cut through a divided field with 30% support. He succeeded in crafting that base, but not in expanding it. Until we can figure out (if we can figure out?) a way to get young people more active, since ideally we don't want to wait 20 more years until Boomers are all dead, we HAVE to engage better with broader audiences. If you don't, and you wish to turn away from electoralism, what exactly is your plan? How are you going to mobilize a general strike or insurrection when you can't even get people to go cast a ballot? Those things happen when material conditions permit them. That's not where this country is yet or those things would already be bubbling up.

Socialism cannot be, and must not be, the sole domain of young online people. Socialism is not an identity. It's a system, one that is meant to encompass all people, and that means electoralists need to find ways to appeal to all people. If you cannot win an election without the Boomers and Karens, then you better figure out how to appeal to the Boomers and Karens - at least to a better degree than you do already. Karen has just as much a right to control the means of production as you.

Bernie has three particular blocs that he struggles with - old people, middle class suburbanites, and black voters. Boomers want stability and they're terrified of the s-word; the second group also want stability as a consequence of their class position; the third is a bit trickier. Let's start there.

The 2016 Bernie campaign was rightfully criticized for its numerous racial gaffes, with Bernie constantly putting his foot in his mouth due to his lack of familiarity with black issues, having come from the very white state of Vermont. He took this to heart and rebuilt his 2020 campaign to be highly intersectional, and the diversity of his base shows the fruits of that labor(especially with Latinos!). It would no doubt put to bed the myth of the all-white Bernie Bros. if liberals could be honest for a minute about Bernie's supporters. And we know from the first three states that Bernie was favored by non-Southern black voters (not sure about NV here, actually), and from the pre-SC polls that Bernie was actually neck and neck or even overtaking Biden with black voters nationally. What this means is that black voters are not lost to socialists. First, they're not a monolith who just blindly vote for the establishment Dems. That's a racist caricature that needs to be stamped out. We know that as with other blocs there is a generational divide - Bernie tends to win or at least do well with young black voters, but loses handily with old black voters. This is no different than every other demo, except that even when he wins with young black voters, it seems to be by a lower amount. What we see, overall, is a bloc of voters who are by and large pragmatic in their decisions, because they need to be more than perhaps most other groups in this country. When Bernie had the momentum, he was starting to earn a lot of trust and support - but it was tenuous, and he failed to lock it down. He failed to transition to unifier status, to demonstrate that he was the best choice to defeat Trump. And that gave the establishment a chance to shore up behind Biden and to remind people of why he was the safe bet.

Black voters are not unreachable. There may be a hefty amount of black voters who are more conservative or moderate on average than other Dems by virtue of being forced into the party on account of the GOP's racism, but they know better than most how racist this country is and would like to see policies that would help end those injustices. We can improve greatly here by promoting more black comrades and people more intimately connected to and familiar with the needs and preferences of black voters. They want change. But they also need assurances that the Dem will win (in other words, that the other voting blocs won't freak out). And that can, and does, lead to strategic voting.

If that's the case, then we need to make ourselves the choice of strategic voters - or at least reduce the margins enough that even if we lose them, it's not a blowout.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Old people - the toughest bloc to break into. They have decades and decades of propaganda that has formed their view of socialism, and studies show that people tend to stick to the beliefs formed during their 20s throughout their lives. But we have the best policies for them, bar none. Hammer that like there's no tomorrow and hope you can peel some of them off. I believe Bernie could have done this if he wasn't so entirely focused on youth and non-voter turnout.

It's a fairly daunting task to try to reorganize our methods of outreach to meet all these different and differing groups, but again - unless your plan is to just wait until 2040 or 2050 when Millennials and Gen Z are running the show, it has to be done. And if we just sit around and wait, the movement will collapse. Once Bernie's campaign is done, there will be no figurehead to solidify around unless AOC takes a shot in 2024, which we can't just assume. And socialism is about the masses, not leaders. So we must appeal to the masses, learn from the masses, be the masses.

Since we cannot know yet what the 2024 presidential race will look like, we need to find ways to keep socialism moving forward without it. That means doubling down on linking up with other activist movements, unions in particular, and building local power, whether electorally or otherwise. One of the prime problems that socialists face is that they are still often viewed as crazy kooks. Bernie and AOC have done a ton to start smashing that apart, but we need to go further. If we are going to convince the blocs that Bernie is losing that our theory is beneficial to them, we need to earn their trust. Building alliances and local power does that. When you have socialists everywhere reliably running things like sewer socialists, it will only help show their competence and value. It gets us more in touch with the masses, from whom our line must be drawn, and will encourage more people to join the ranks. The fact that I even have to say that shows the disconnect rhst exists between caddes and voters right now - we need to connect more, draw more from the working class, take more city council seats and state senate seats and so forth. The bench will grow so that we have more candidates to choose from in the future, which will help us connect to even more voters. Keep fighting for Congressional seats, even if we lose them. And even if we don't have a good presidential offer in a given year, keep holding the candidates who are running's feet to the fire.

There are great dangers inherent in reformism that I don't think I need to repeat here, at least not for this audience. I very much dislike that socialism in the US is primarily an electoral movement that separates "us" from "them", with the implication that "we" need to "educate" "them". I wish we had more of a presence in labor, but labor is so weak right now that it would not have much political value. The age of soviets controlling the government is past us, and the material conditions in the US are such that people have a weird hybrid stable-precarity that they aren't quite ready to abandon. Hence, we are forced by necessity to turn to liberal democratic elections. And we've gotten good results, to be fair! Bernie has done a lot for our movement. Socialism is now stronger in the US than its been in half a century. There was an exit poll from Texas - Texas! - showing a 57% favorable view of the word. People may not know what it means, but they know they like it. And with Bernie completing his role, we now have a chance to ensure everyone knows it means more than just social democracy.

We know that the fundamentals won't change under a Biden presidency. The dialectical struggle underpinning all of this rages on unabated. That means all the same issues destroying the country and the world will continue with some bandaids slapped on. We are in a better position now to be the alternative voice of reason and to build on the failures that will inevitably result. Liberalism cannot save itself - it can only delay its inevitable rot. Let us engage with the masses so that they can save themselves before the system collapses.

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again - until the people's victory.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
I mean, I don't care, I just find it lacking a ton of self-awareness that "We're a friendly bunch" came at the end of a post shitting on other threads and other liberals.

There is a pretty long history of socialists and liberals not getting along. It has nothing to do with being "a friendly bunch."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
people need to mix some theory in with the organizing

honestly the more i think about it bernie's shortcomings are coming into focus

in particular mark's fisher's analogy of capitalism as the titular monster from the thing stands out

the idea of making something like healthcare the tip of the spear is it gives a target obvious enough for even the democratic party to hit effectively

part of trumps success was his ability to blow past controversy by just saying something else wild, some version of that is required for the media cycle
 

Kyra

The Eggplant Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,245
New York City
So where do we go from here?

Many people over the last 24 hours have sworn off electoralism. More power to you, if that's what you want to do. I would suggest turning your energies to labor struggles and trying to build alternate centers of power. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think LARPing with the Austin Red Guard will do anything.

For everyone else, these are my not-so-organized ramblings.

I've been spending the day processing what happened last night, and while some people will still hold out hope for a Bernie comeback, I think it's pretty clear that Biden will take the nomination. A sober analysis of the results shows that Bernie failed to turn out the youth and that he continues to struggle with particular voting blocs. We have to be able to come to grips with this if we're going to make any progress going forward.

Bernie's campaign and his theory of change are founded on the idea that large numbers of people don't vote because they see all politicians as part of the same, bought off class of bloodsuckers, but that if you speak to them and offer them something that will benefit them materially, you can mobilize them to vote. As an outsider to the Democratic Party, Bernie rejected the typical strategies employed by other Dems in favor of bringing in a new alliance of voters who would presumably be in favor of his cause. This didn't happen - or, rather, there were simply more people willing to vote for the safe choice of Biden than people willing to take a gamble on the more radical alternative. His campaign formed a sharpened voting base that was meant to cut through a divided field with 30% support. He succeeded in crafting that base, but not in expanding it. Until we can figure out (if we can figure out?) a way to get young people more active, since ideally we don't want to wait 20 more years until Boomers are all dead, we HAVE to engage better with broader audiences. If you don't, and you wish to turn away from electoralism, what exactly is your plan? How are you going to mobilize a general strike or insurrection when you can't even get people to go cast a ballot? Those things happen when material conditions permit them. That's not where this country is yet or those things would already be bubbling up.

Socialism cannot be, and must not be, the sole domain of young online people. Socialism is not an identity. It's a system, one that is meant to encompass all people, and that means electoralists need to find ways to appeal to all people. If you cannot win an election without the Boomers and Karens, then you better figure out how to appeal to the Boomers and Karens - at least to a better degree than you do already. Karen has just as much a right to control the means of production as you.

Bernie has three particular blocs that he struggles with - old people, middle class suburbanites, and black voters. Boomers want stability and they're terrified of the s-word; the second group also want stability as a consequence of their class position; the third is a bit trickier. Let's start there.

The 2016 Bernie campaign was rightfully criticized for its numerous racial gaffes, with Bernie constantly putting his foot in his mouth due to his lack of familiarity with black issues, having come from the very white state of Vermont. He took this to heart and rebuilt his 2020 campaign to be highly intersectional, and the diversity of his base shows the fruits of that labor(especially with Latinos!). It would no doubt put to bed the myth of the all-white Bernie Bros. if liberals could be honest for a minute about Bernie's supporters. And we know from the first three states that Bernie was favored by non-Southern black voters (not sure about NV here, actually), and from the pre-SC polls that Bernie was actually neck and neck or even overtaking Biden with black voters nationally. What this means is that black voters are not lost to socialists. First, they're not a monolith who just blindly vote for the establishment Dems. That's a racist caricature that needs to be stamped out. We know that as with other blocs there is a generational divide - Bernie tends to win or at least do well with young black voters, but loses handily with old black voters. This is no different than every other demo, except that even when he wins with young black voters, it seems to be by a lower amount. What we see, overall, is a bloc of voters who are by and large pragmatic in their decisions, because they need to be more than perhaps most other groups in this country. When Bernie had the momentum, he was starting to earn a lot of trust and support - but it was tenuous, and he failed to lock it down. He failed to transition to unifier status, to demonstrate that he was the best choice to defeat Trump. And that gave the establishment a chance to shore up behind Biden and to remind people of why he was the safe bet.

Black voters are not unreachable. There may be a hefty amount of black voters who are more conservative or moderate on average than other Dems by virtue of being forced into the party on account of the GOP's racism, but they know better than most how racist this country is and would like to see policies that would help end those injustices. We can improve greatly here by promoting more black comrades and people more intimately connected to and familiar with the needs and preferences of black voters. They want change. But they also need assurances that the Dem will win (in other words, that the other voting blocs won't freak out). And that can, and does, lead to strategic voting.

If that's the case, then we need to make ourselves the choice of strategic voters - or at least reduce the margins enough that even if we lose them, it's not a blowout.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Old people - the toughest bloc to break into. They have decades and decades of propaganda that has formed their view of socialism, and studies show that people tend to stick to the beliefs formed during their 20s throughout their lives. But we have the best policies for them, bar none. Hammer that like there's no tomorrow and hope you can peel some of them off. I believe Bernie could have done this if he wasn't so entirely focused on youth and non-voter turnout.

It's a fairly daunting task to try to reorganize our methods of outreach to meet all these different and differing groups, but again - unless your plan is to just wait until 2040 or 2050 when Millennials and Gen Z are running the show, it has to be done. And if we just sit around and wait, the movement will collapse. Once Bernie's campaign is done, there will be no figurehead to solidify around unless AOC takes a shot in 2024, which we can't just assume. And socialism is about the masses, not leaders. So we must appeal to the masses, learn from the masses, be the masses.

Since we cannot know yet what the 2024 presidential race will look like, we need to find ways to keep socialism moving forward without it. That means doubling down on linking up with other activist movements, unions in particular, and building local power, whether electorally or otherwise. One of the prime problems that socialists face is that they are still often viewed as crazy kooks. Bernie and AOC have done a ton to start smashing that apart, but we need to go further. If we are going to convince the blocs that Bernie is losing that our theory is beneficial to them, we need to earn their trust. Building alliances and local power does that. When you have socialists everywhere reliably running things like sewer socialists, it will only help show their competence and value. It gets us more in touch with the masses, from whom our line must be drawn, and will encourage more people to join the ranks. The fact that I even have to say that shows the disconnect rhst exists between caddes and voters right now - we need to connect more, draw more from the working class, take more city council seats and state senate seats and so forth. The bench will grow so that we have more candidates to choose from in the future, which will help us connect to even more voters. Keep fighting for Congressional seats, even if we lose them. And even if we don't have a good presidential offer in a given year, keep holding the candidates who are running's feet to the fire.

There are great dangers inherent in reformism that I don't think I need to repeat here, at least not for this audience. I very much dislike that socialism in the US is primarily an electoral movement that separates "us" from "them", with the implication that "we" need to "educate" "them". I wish we had more of a presence in labor, but labor is so weak right now that it would not have much political value. The age of soviets controlling the government is past us, and the material conditions in the US are such that people have a weird hybrid stable-precarity that they aren't quite ready to abandon. Hence, we are forced by necessity to turn to liberal democratic elections. And we've gotten good results, to be fair! Bernie has done a lot for our movement. Socialism is now stronger in the US than its been in half a century. There was an exit poll from Texas - Texas! - showing a 57% favorable view of the word. People may not know what it means, but they know they like it. And with Bernie completing his role, we now have a chance to ensure everyone knows it means more than just social democracy.

We know that the fundamentals won't change under a Biden presidency. The dialectical struggle underpinning all of this rages on unabated. That means all the same issues destroying the country and the world will continue with some bandaids slapped on. We are in a better position now to be the alternative voice of reason and to build on the failures that will inevitably result. Liberalism cannot save itself - it can only delay its inevitable rot. Let us engage with the masses so that they can save themselves before the system collapses.

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again - until the people's victory.
Heyyyyyy, I think this post is like really well thought out and is full of much needed perspective.
 

Deleted member 3968

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
888
User banned (3 Months): ignoring staff post, attacking other members, community warring, history of same behaviour
I mean, I don't care, I just find it lacking a ton of self-awareness that "We're a friendly bunch" came at the end of a post shitting on other threads and other liberals.

*shrugs* The fact that you take this passive-aggressive manner also says something. I'm fully aware no one is making me stay.

But as this is so unwelcome, I think I'll just shuffle out of here and unwatch the thread I've been watching since it was first created. Because this really is the straw that breaks the camel's back.
I mean the regular members of the thread you post in have among other things:
-defended american war crimes in the korean war
-insisted arabian ppl have no culture
-displayed racism in china threads
-had a member get a 1 month ban for racism then rescind it to 1 week on the same day another member was also banned for 1 month DURING the staff meeting with the BCT and Black history month
-unpermed a user who used nazi conspiracy rhetoric to describe sanders and his supporters. twice. and was called out by no one besides sphagnum.
-set up a fake discord to troll a user after harassing them for a month through PMs.
-called regular poster invaders for speaking their minds
-chased a queer, black man off the site and publicly gloated about it


But yeah I guess we were kind of mean so that totally evens it all out. A little venting/sarcasm is def the same as some vile ass shit.

OT: Great post sphagnum.

Def feeling a bit deflated but not gonna let it get me down. We've made significant progress we just need to see things through and keep building the movement. keep ppl engaged and motivated.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
But yeah I guess we were kind of mean so that totally evens it all out. A little venting/sarcasm is def the same as some vile ass shit.

I mean, I'm not defending any of that. Again

We're a friendly bunch though <3

At the end of a post shitting on other people and other threads is not a great look. And if your only defense is "That other thread is also shit", then I don't know what to tell you, other than "Two wrongs don't make a right". Actually, no I do - it would be simple to (at least partially) right-the-ship by just apologizing for coming across aggressively.

As it is, this whole thing is just some toxic masculinity-esque thing where shitting on other threads gives an air of superiority.

But, whatevs. I've unwatched thread, and the only reason I'm responding is because you quoted me so I got a notification. I'll clear out of here, no problems now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
as materialists we understand that two wrongs don't make a right is a kind of a weak philosophy and at some point you have to do some weighing

taking the high road doesn't work if people already don't respect you
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,126
So where do we go from here?

Many people over the last 24 hours have sworn off electoralism. More power to you, if that's what you want to do. I would suggest turning your energies to labor struggles and trying to build alternate centers of power. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think LARPing with the Austin Red Guard will do anything.

For everyone else, these are my not-so-organized ramblings.

I've been spending the day processing what happened last night, and while some people will still hold out hope for a Bernie comeback, I think it's pretty clear that Biden will take the nomination. A sober analysis of the results shows that Bernie failed to turn out the youth and that he continues to struggle with particular voting blocs. We have to be able to come to grips with this if we're going to make any progress going forward.

Bernie's campaign and his theory of change are founded on the idea that large numbers of people don't vote because they see all politicians as part of the same, bought off class of bloodsuckers, but that if you speak to them and offer them something that will benefit them materially, you can mobilize them to vote. As an outsider to the Democratic Party, Bernie rejected the typical strategies employed by other Dems in favor of bringing in a new alliance of voters who would presumably be in favor of his cause. This didn't happen - or, rather, there were simply more people willing to vote for the safe choice of Biden than people willing to take a gamble on the more radical alternative. His campaign formed a sharpened voting base that was meant to cut through a divided field with 30% support. He succeeded in crafting that base, but not in expanding it. Until we can figure out (if we can figure out?) a way to get young people more active, since ideally we don't want to wait 20 more years until Boomers are all dead, we HAVE to engage better with broader audiences. If you don't, and you wish to turn away from electoralism, what exactly is your plan? How are you going to mobilize a general strike or insurrection when you can't even get people to go cast a ballot? Those things happen when material conditions permit them. That's not where this country is yet or those things would already be bubbling up.

Socialism cannot be, and must not be, the sole domain of young online people. Socialism is not an identity. It's a system, one that is meant to encompass all people, and that means electoralists need to find ways to appeal to all people. If you cannot win an election without the Boomers and Karens, then you better figure out how to appeal to the Boomers and Karens - at least to a better degree than you do already. Karen has just as much a right to control the means of production as you.

Bernie has three particular blocs that he struggles with - old people, middle class suburbanites, and black voters. Boomers want stability and they're terrified of the s-word; the second group also want stability as a consequence of their class position; the third is a bit trickier. Let's start there.

The 2016 Bernie campaign was rightfully criticized for its numerous racial gaffes, with Bernie constantly putting his foot in his mouth due to his lack of familiarity with black issues, having come from the very white state of Vermont. He took this to heart and rebuilt his 2020 campaign to be highly intersectional, and the diversity of his base shows the fruits of that labor(especially with Latinos!). It would no doubt put to bed the myth of the all-white Bernie Bros. if liberals could be honest for a minute about Bernie's supporters. And we know from the first three states that Bernie was favored by non-Southern black voters (not sure about NV here, actually), and from the pre-SC polls that Bernie was actually neck and neck or even overtaking Biden with black voters nationally. What this means is that black voters are not lost to socialists. First, they're not a monolith who just blindly vote for the establishment Dems. That's a racist caricature that needs to be stamped out. We know that as with other blocs there is a generational divide - Bernie tends to win or at least do well with young black voters, but loses handily with old black voters. This is no different than every other demo, except that even when he wins with young black voters, it seems to be by a lower amount. What we see, overall, is a bloc of voters who are by and large pragmatic in their decisions, because they need to be more than perhaps most other groups in this country. When Bernie had the momentum, he was starting to earn a lot of trust and support - but it was tenuous, and he failed to lock it down. He failed to transition to unifier status, to demonstrate that he was the best choice to defeat Trump. And that gave the establishment a chance to shore up behind Biden and to remind people of why he was the safe bet.

Black voters are not unreachable. There may be a hefty amount of black voters who are more conservative or moderate on average than other Dems by virtue of being forced into the party on account of the GOP's racism, but they know better than most how racist this country is and would like to see policies that would help end those injustices. We can improve greatly here by promoting more black comrades and people more intimately connected to and familiar with the needs and preferences of black voters. They want change. But they also need assurances that the Dem will win (in other words, that the other voting blocs won't freak out). And that can, and does, lead to strategic voting.

If that's the case, then we need to make ourselves the choice of strategic voters - or at least reduce the margins enough that even if we lose them, it's not a blowout.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Old people - the toughest bloc to break into. They have decades and decades of propaganda that has formed their view of socialism, and studies show that people tend to stick to the beliefs formed during their 20s throughout their lives. But we have the best policies for them, bar none. Hammer that like there's no tomorrow and hope you can peel some of them off. I believe Bernie could have done this if he wasn't so entirely focused on youth and non-voter turnout.

It's a fairly daunting task to try to reorganize our methods of outreach to meet all these different and differing groups, but again - unless your plan is to just wait until 2040 or 2050 when Millennials and Gen Z are running the show, it has to be done. And if we just sit around and wait, the movement will collapse. Once Bernie's campaign is done, there will be no figurehead to solidify around unless AOC takes a shot in 2024, which we can't just assume. And socialism is about the masses, not leaders. So we must appeal to the masses, learn from the masses, be the masses.

Since we cannot know yet what the 2024 presidential race will look like, we need to find ways to keep socialism moving forward without it. That means doubling down on linking up with other activist movements, unions in particular, and building local power, whether electorally or otherwise. One of the prime problems that socialists face is that they are still often viewed as crazy kooks. Bernie and AOC have done a ton to start smashing that apart, but we need to go further. If we are going to convince the blocs that Bernie is losing that our theory is beneficial to them, we need to earn their trust. Building alliances and local power does that. When you have socialists everywhere reliably running things like sewer socialists, it will only help show their competence and value. It gets us more in touch with the masses, from whom our line must be drawn, and will encourage more people to join the ranks. The fact that I even have to say that shows the disconnect rhst exists between caddes and voters right now - we need to connect more, draw more from the working class, take more city council seats and state senate seats and so forth. The bench will grow so that we have more candidates to choose from in the future, which will help us connect to even more voters. Keep fighting for Congressional seats, even if we lose them. And even if we don't have a good presidential offer in a given year, keep holding the candidates who are running's feet to the fire.

There are great dangers inherent in reformism that I don't think I need to repeat here, at least not for this audience. I very much dislike that socialism in the US is primarily an electoral movement that separates "us" from "them", with the implication that "we" need to "educate" "them". I wish we had more of a presence in labor, but labor is so weak right now that it would not have much political value. The age of soviets controlling the government is past us, and the material conditions in the US are such that people have a weird hybrid stable-precarity that they aren't quite ready to abandon. Hence, we are forced by necessity to turn to liberal democratic elections. And we've gotten good results, to be fair! Bernie has done a lot for our movement. Socialism is now stronger in the US than its been in half a century. There was an exit poll from Texas - Texas! - showing a 57% favorable view of the word. People may not know what it means, but they know they like it. And with Bernie completing his role, we now have a chance to ensure everyone knows it means more than just social democracy.

We know that the fundamentals won't change under a Biden presidency. The dialectical struggle underpinning all of this rages on unabated. That means all the same issues destroying the country and the world will continue with some bandaids slapped on. We are in a better position now to be the alternative voice of reason and to build on the failures that will inevitably result. Liberalism cannot save itself - it can only delay its inevitable rot. Let us engage with the masses so that they can save themselves before the system collapses.

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again - until the people's victory.

Thank you for this post, comrade. I agree it's basically over for Bernie barring a miracle, but I'm content that, for a moment, we made the DNC blink. We came so close. There was a moment where an open socialist was the frontrunner of a Presidential election.

A few thoughts:

I love AOC and think she has a bright future in politics. I really hope she runs for Senate. Obviously I want her as President, but that's probably at least 10-15 years off, I doubt she would do well as a barely eligible 35 candidate. My fear is, if a lot of these people didn't like an angry old white man yelling about economic inequality, they'll hate an angry, young Latina woman doing the same thing. I think AOC is much better at her overall messaging though. She isn't as antagonistic and she's less likely to have a faux pax talking about racial issues and whatnot. I think an experienced AOC that spends a decade+ building up a socialist coalition in Congress could be immensely powerful in a Presidential race.

I want to get involved locally too. Although I know we need the old people and suburbanites, I really want to work on how to motivate young people to get involved and vote. Maybe this is my calling, go to high schools and colleges and give speeches about how awesome socialism is. I said earlier in this thread I feel like leaving this country, but maybe I need to fight the fight. If everyone like me leaves, there is no movement. As I shared earlier in this thread, I got my boomer family friend to come around to communism by describing it without ever calling it communism, so maybe I can do something there, who knows.

I would really want more genuinely leftist black politicians to run. Unfortunately, any POC candidate, especially a black one, is gonna get smeared as a crazy radical by just existing, so they tend to be more moderate. This is why Obama nominated one of the most conservative Democrats as his VP, to downplay the accusations that he's a crazy Black Panther terrorist. I don't know what I can do in that field, but maybe I can rekindle some sort of Jewish-black alliance like the days of old.

I'm disappointed in this result, for sure. I always knew the path to a Bernie nom was narrow, but for once it felt like the universe was falling into place for it. It was not meant to be. I'm probably going to take a break from a lot of political threads and reading, go play some video games, recoup and try to not go crazy worrying about it, then come back and hit the ground running getting involved and engaged. At the very least, I'm proud my state decided the President they want is a democratic socialist. Over 1 million Californians voted for Bernie. That's mindboggling. I want that energy in other bodies of government in this state. Let's run some socialist congressmen, senators, hell, even a governor. Let's make California and Texas commie states and show the rest of this country how it's done. Turn Texas permanently red, but a different kind of red.

We sort of put all our eggs in the Bernie basket hoping to brute force our way with this. It didn't happen. Now we have to begin the long, drawn out fight of re-establishing workers' rights, unions, etc. It's going to be a hard battle. We might not live to see the fruits of its labor. But I'm tired of waiting for someone to save us. Bernie, AOC, etc. are great, but they can't do it alone. We have a group of angry, disenfranchised people who are passionate and tired of the status quo. Let's fucking use it. Let's use that ground game, that infrastructure, that pooled resources and cash and affect some real change. Let's drag this country kicking and screaming into leftism by showing that better things are possible.

History is only over when we say it is.

Not me, us.
 

Icolin

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,235
Midgar
please do not go near the costco hotdog thread, guys.

Thank you for this post, comrade. I agree it's basically over for Bernie barring a miracle, but I'm content that, for a moment, we made the DNC blink. We came so close. There was a moment where an open socialist was the frontrunner of a Presidential election.

A few thoughts:

I love AOC and think she has a bright future in politics. I really hope she runs for Senate. Obviously I want her as President, but that's probably at least 10-15 years off, I doubt she would do well as a barely eligible 35 candidate. My fear is, if a lot of these people didn't like an angry old white man yelling about economic inequality, they'll hate an angry, young Latina woman doing the same thing. I think AOC is much better at her overall messaging though. She isn't as antagonistic and she's less likely to have a faux pax talking about racial issues and whatnot. I think an experienced AOC that spends a decade+ building up a socialist coalition in Congress could be immensely powerful in a Presidential race.

I want to get involved locally too. Although I know we need the old people and suburbanites, I really want to work on how to motivate young people to get involved and vote. Maybe this is my calling, go to high schools and colleges and give speeches about how awesome socialism is. I said earlier in this thread I feel like leaving this country, but maybe I need to fight the fight. If everyone like me leaves, there is no movement. As I shared earlier in this thread, I got my boomer family friend to come around to communism by describing it without ever calling it communism, so maybe I can do something there, who knows.

I would really want more genuinely leftist black politicians to run. Unfortunately, any POC candidate, especially a black one, is gonna get smeared as a crazy radical by just existing, so they tend to be more moderate. This is why Obama nominated one of the most conservative Democrats as his VP, to downplay the accusations that he's a crazy Black Panther terrorist. I don't know what I can do in that field, but maybe I can rekindle some sort of Jewish-black alliance like the days of old.

I'm disappointed in this result, for sure. I always knew the path to a Bernie nom was narrow, but for once it felt like the universe was falling into place for it. It was not meant to be. I'm probably going to take a break from a lot of political threads and reading, go play some video games, recoup and try to not go crazy worrying about it, then come back and hit the ground running getting involved and engaged. At the very least, I'm proud my state decided the President they want is a democratic socialist. Over 1 million Californians voted for Bernie. That's mindboggling. I want that energy in other bodies of government in this state. Let's run some socialist congressmen, senators, hell, even a governor. Let's make California and Texas commie states and show the rest of this country how it's done. Turn Texas permanently red, but a different kind of red.

We sort of put all our eggs in the Bernie basket hoping to brute force our way with this. It didn't happen. Now we have to begin the long, drawn out fight of re-establishing workers' rights, unions, etc. It's going to be a hard battle. We might not live to see the fruits of its labor. But I'm tired of waiting for someone to save us. Bernie, AOC, etc. are great, but they can't do it alone. We have a group of angry, disenfranchised people who are passionate and tired of the status quo. Let's fucking use it. Let's use that ground game, that infrastructure, that pooled resources and cash and affect some real change. Let's drag this country kicking and screaming into leftism by showing that better things are possible.

History is only over when we say it is.

Not me, us.

this is a great post, solidarity forever.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Yeah, it's only gotten worse over the past couple days now that Bernie's candidacy is in jeopardy. The basic libs, who are just interested in gotchas and telling you why change can't happen, are coming out of the woodwork. And I'm just talking about the Primary thread here. I hear PoliERA is an absolute cesspool, but I never go there for my own mental sake.

We were just talking about this over on FranceERA, but it's shocking how many US citizens on ERA aren't willing to even engage in legitimate discussions about how broken and undemocratic their electoral system is. They can't even address the concept of the Democratic party trying to artificially manufacturing consent around a candidate and against another without framing it as "Bernie Bros being sore losers who hate democracy". They're brainwashed children who don't want to think about the broader picture OR the actual specific, dramatic issues their fellow citizens (and immigrant people) are confronted with on a daily basis.

Expect things to become worse as/if Bernie loses more in the coming weeks. They'll just go "lol so much for the progressive coalition ! What a crazy old loser" when they should be sad and angry about it. But hey, as long as they're not part of the dirty poors who'll actually die from lack of healthcare, it's all fair game, right ?

We're a friendly bunch though <3

Hey now...
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
So where do we go from here?

Many people over the last 24 hours have sworn off electoralism. More power to you, if that's what you want to do. I would suggest turning your energies to labor struggles and trying to build alternate centers of power. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think LARPing with the Austin Red Guard will do anything.

For everyone else, these are my not-so-organized ramblings.

I've been spending the day processing what happened last night, and while some people will still hold out hope for a Bernie comeback, I think it's pretty clear that Biden will take the nomination. A sober analysis of the results shows that Bernie failed to turn out the youth and that he continues to struggle with particular voting blocs. We have to be able to come to grips with this if we're going to make any progress going forward.

Bernie's campaign and his theory of change are founded on the idea that large numbers of people don't vote because they see all politicians as part of the same, bought off class of bloodsuckers, but that if you speak to them and offer them something that will benefit them materially, you can mobilize them to vote. As an outsider to the Democratic Party, Bernie rejected the typical strategies employed by other Dems in favor of bringing in a new alliance of voters who would presumably be in favor of his cause. This didn't happen - or, rather, there were simply more people willing to vote for the safe choice of Biden than people willing to take a gamble on the more radical alternative. His campaign formed a sharpened voting base that was meant to cut through a divided field with 30% support. He succeeded in crafting that base, but not in expanding it. Until we can figure out (if we can figure out?) a way to get young people more active, since ideally we don't want to wait 20 more years until Boomers are all dead, we HAVE to engage better with broader audiences. If you don't, and you wish to turn away from electoralism, what exactly is your plan? How are you going to mobilize a general strike or insurrection when you can't even get people to go cast a ballot? Those things happen when material conditions permit them. That's not where this country is yet or those things would already be bubbling up.

Socialism cannot be, and must not be, the sole domain of young online people. Socialism is not an identity. It's a system, one that is meant to encompass all people, and that means electoralists need to find ways to appeal to all people. If you cannot win an election without the Boomers and Karens, then you better figure out how to appeal to the Boomers and Karens - at least to a better degree than you do already. Karen has just as much a right to control the means of production as you.

Bernie has three particular blocs that he struggles with - old people, middle class suburbanites, and black voters. Boomers want stability and they're terrified of the s-word; the second group also want stability as a consequence of their class position; the third is a bit trickier. Let's start there.

The 2016 Bernie campaign was rightfully criticized for its numerous racial gaffes, with Bernie constantly putting his foot in his mouth due to his lack of familiarity with black issues, having come from the very white state of Vermont. He took this to heart and rebuilt his 2020 campaign to be highly intersectional, and the diversity of his base shows the fruits of that labor(especially with Latinos!). It would no doubt put to bed the myth of the all-white Bernie Bros. if liberals could be honest for a minute about Bernie's supporters. And we know from the first three states that Bernie was favored by non-Southern black voters (not sure about NV here, actually), and from the pre-SC polls that Bernie was actually neck and neck or even overtaking Biden with black voters nationally. What this means is that black voters are not lost to socialists. First, they're not a monolith who just blindly vote for the establishment Dems. That's a racist caricature that needs to be stamped out. We know that as with other blocs there is a generational divide - Bernie tends to win or at least do well with young black voters, but loses handily with old black voters. This is no different than every other demo, except that even when he wins with young black voters, it seems to be by a lower amount. What we see, overall, is a bloc of voters who are by and large pragmatic in their decisions, because they need to be more than perhaps most other groups in this country. When Bernie had the momentum, he was starting to earn a lot of trust and support - but it was tenuous, and he failed to lock it down. He failed to transition to unifier status, to demonstrate that he was the best choice to defeat Trump. And that gave the establishment a chance to shore up behind Biden and to remind people of why he was the safe bet.

Black voters are not unreachable. There may be a hefty amount of black voters who are more conservative or moderate on average than other Dems by virtue of being forced into the party on account of the GOP's racism, but they know better than most how racist this country is and would like to see policies that would help end those injustices. We can improve greatly here by promoting more black comrades and people more intimately connected to and familiar with the needs and preferences of black voters. They want change. But they also need assurances that the Dem will win (in other words, that the other voting blocs won't freak out). And that can, and does, lead to strategic voting.

If that's the case, then we need to make ourselves the choice of strategic voters - or at least reduce the margins enough that even if we lose them, it's not a blowout.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Old people - the toughest bloc to break into. They have decades and decades of propaganda that has formed their view of socialism, and studies show that people tend to stick to the beliefs formed during their 20s throughout their lives. But we have the best policies for them, bar none. Hammer that like there's no tomorrow and hope you can peel some of them off. I believe Bernie could have done this if he wasn't so entirely focused on youth and non-voter turnout.

It's a fairly daunting task to try to reorganize our methods of outreach to meet all these different and differing groups, but again - unless your plan is to just wait until 2040 or 2050 when Millennials and Gen Z are running the show, it has to be done. And if we just sit around and wait, the movement will collapse. Once Bernie's campaign is done, there will be no figurehead to solidify around unless AOC takes a shot in 2024, which we can't just assume. And socialism is about the masses, not leaders. So we must appeal to the masses, learn from the masses, be the masses.

Since we cannot know yet what the 2024 presidential race will look like, we need to find ways to keep socialism moving forward without it. That means doubling down on linking up with other activist movements, unions in particular, and building local power, whether electorally or otherwise. One of the prime problems that socialists face is that they are still often viewed as crazy kooks. Bernie and AOC have done a ton to start smashing that apart, but we need to go further. If we are going to convince the blocs that Bernie is losing that our theory is beneficial to them, we need to earn their trust. Building alliances and local power does that. When you have socialists everywhere reliably running things like sewer socialists, it will only help show their competence and value. It gets us more in touch with the masses, from whom our line must be drawn, and will encourage more people to join the ranks. The fact that I even have to say that shows the disconnect rhst exists between caddes and voters right now - we need to connect more, draw more from the working class, take more city council seats and state senate seats and so forth. The bench will grow so that we have more candidates to choose from in the future, which will help us connect to even more voters. Keep fighting for Congressional seats, even if we lose them. And even if we don't have a good presidential offer in a given year, keep holding the candidates who are running's feet to the fire.

There are great dangers inherent in reformism that I don't think I need to repeat here, at least not for this audience. I very much dislike that socialism in the US is primarily an electoral movement that separates "us" from "them", with the implication that "we" need to "educate" "them". I wish we had more of a presence in labor, but labor is so weak right now that it would not have much political value. The age of soviets controlling the government is past us, and the material conditions in the US are such that people have a weird hybrid stable-precarity that they aren't quite ready to abandon. Hence, we are forced by necessity to turn to liberal democratic elections. And we've gotten good results, to be fair! Bernie has done a lot for our movement. Socialism is now stronger in the US than its been in half a century. There was an exit poll from Texas - Texas! - showing a 57% favorable view of the word. People may not know what it means, but they know they like it. And with Bernie completing his role, we now have a chance to ensure everyone knows it means more than just social democracy.

We know that the fundamentals won't change under a Biden presidency. The dialectical struggle underpinning all of this rages on unabated. That means all the same issues destroying the country and the world will continue with some bandaids slapped on. We are in a better position now to be the alternative voice of reason and to build on the failures that will inevitably result. Liberalism cannot save itself - it can only delay its inevitable rot. Let us engage with the masses so that they can save themselves before the system collapses.

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again - until the people's victory.

I agree with everything said here. As more of a reformist I'd like to think we can fix this, but there are days I'm not so sure.

Regardless, imo Bernie should not be the face of the leftist movement in America. AOC however...that girl has a bright future.

Keep fighting.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,322
I mean, I don't care, I just find it lacking a ton of self-awareness that "We're a friendly bunch" came at the end of a post shitting on other threads and other liberals.
Thread status: owned.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Good post overall, but I think you're missing something crucial with this bit. What counts as professional or cerebral is itself filtered through ideology. You're right that affect is important, because a lot of the time what is being said isn't insightful or accurate at all. Buttigieg, for instance talked about "playing with data" to do his job as mayor, which is either nonsense or a cardinal sin of actual data science. Even Warren, when asked about economic stimulus to respond to coronavirus, gave a suggestion that was off the mark economically and legally would have run afoul of the Federal Reserve Act (as an aside, if Sanders had given a similar response and someone qualified picked it up, it would probably be a talking point against him). It's the combination of affect and compatibility with preconceptions that creates this impression. And it's self-referential, because content shapes affect. When Buttigieg says "data driven policy" he's smart and professional. If he said "hegemonic common sense" he'd be the brainwashed son of a crackpot Marxist academic.

If you read Yanis Varoufakis' Adults in the Room, he talks about how at times in the negotiations with the Troika it felt like he was speaking a different language. He could produce analysis that was in the conventional mold, and it would fall on deaf ears. He could produce something drawn from his heterodox background, and it would be dismissed out of hand. Recall last time around, when Sanders' campaign touted a piece of modelling that's completely in line with what campaigns, think tanks etc produce regularly, and the very serious economists rushed to circle the wagons and denounce it as not "proper science". Even now, look at how someone like Krugman talks about AOC. "She's passionate and definitely knows a lot more than the Republicans mocking her, even if she's wrong on a few things." Put her in the position Sanders is in and that will quickly turn to "she's passionate and not entirely wrong, but we need someone willing to deal with facts and evidence, not just act on ideology." Another example is Corbyn, whose leadership focused strongly on trying to defuse the "how will you pay for it?" question, creating fiscal rules and releasing detailed costings. To be upfront, I think this was bad economics and bad political strategy; the pay-for question only works for the right, not just because it tacitly reifies market distribution, but also because of what "fiscal responsibility" actually appeals to on a philosophical level. Regardless, I think it's fair to say that Corbyn's costings met the standards of most actually elected governments in the developed world, left or right. What did that get them? Even many voters who had nothing to lose believed that Labour's program was simply not possible.

I haven't read Piketty's latest (and don't actually feel his work is deserving of the status it's given) but I've seen commentary that the current splits of the polls between Sanders and the rest fall in line with his categorisations of the Brahmin left and the Internationalist left. I'm not sure you can be the left-most wing of anything and appeal to the majority of the Brahmins, at least as things are currently.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I mean the regular members of the thread you post in have among other things:
-defended american war crimes in the korean war
-insisted arabian ppl have no culture
-displayed racism in china threads
-had a member get a 1 month ban for racism then rescind it to 1 week on the same day another member was also banned for 1 month DURING the staff meeting with the BCT and Black history month
-unpermed a user who used nazi conspiracy rhetoric to describe sanders and his supporters. twice. and was called out by no one besides sphagnum.
-set up a fake discord to troll a user after harassing them for a month through PMs.
-called regular poster invaders for speaking their minds
-chased a queer, black man off the site and publicly gloated about it


But yeah I guess we were kind of mean so that totally evens it all out. A little venting/sarcasm is def the same as some vile ass shit.

OT: Great post sphagnum.

Def feeling a bit deflated but not gonna let it get me down. We've made significant progress we just need to see things through and keep building the movement. keep ppl engaged and motivated.

I have to comment on this one since I make the threads.

It isn't people posting takes, or being socialists or Bernie fans or critical of Dems.

It's certain posters who rarely ever post in poliera who then come in with hot takes like "oh you like Obama you must hate brown folk" or some such nonsense who don't add anything to the conversation.

It would be like me coming in here and calling all Bernie supporters sexist jerks with 🐍 emojis and never posting anything of substance.

As for the rest, those people can and do get called out for crappy behavior. We try to be inclusive and welcoming but primary season has everyone on edge. I always argue for unity and focus on beating the bad guys.

Hence why after yesterday, I came in here to tell y'all to keep your head held high. I mean, y'all have honest socialist reps as the face of the Dems! You've made great progress since even 10 years ago!

We may not always agree on how to get to a better tomorrow, but Liberal Dems and lefties all want to get to a better tomorrow.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,307
Vermont
The "invaders" comments are exclusively a reference to members of this forum who drive-by troll PoliERA occasionally. We've seen a huge increase in the occurrences of this happening, and it gets frustrating when you're trying to have a legitimate dialogue and people come in to throw zingers out trying to bait conflict. I'm not fond of the divisive language myself, and I've noticed it's not used as often—likely because everyone realized it wasn't the kind of look we wanted to project.

I'd also point out that several of the other claims are misrepresented and/or really missing important context—not saying anyone is lying or arguing in bad faith, just that after talking to some folks about it, we have drastically different recollections of several of those events. Not trying to relitigate things, but I do feel obligated to say there's a lot more to each of those stories, and they are in no way reflective of the community as a whole. Additionally, on several of those events the members were criticized or banned for it, and their punishments agreed with. It's not something that should be used to attack a whole diverse community, that by and large is welcoming if you don't come at it with the intention of rustling feathers and/or trolling.

I'll join Hunter in saying, I imagine Tuesday was a tough night for you guys, but I hope you keep up the good fight. As a 2016 Bernie voter/supporter, I've been there, and I know an underwhelming primary night can be a real gut punch. My hope is going forward the progressive movement Bernie mainstreamed can get some new blood and hone their messaging in a way that does lead to structural reform. Take care y'all.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
So where do we go from here?

Many people over the last 24 hours have sworn off electoralism. More power to you, if that's what you want to do. I would suggest turning your energies to labor struggles and trying to build alternate centers of power. I'd also say you're wasting your time if you think LARPing with the Austin Red Guard will do anything.

For everyone else, these are my not-so-organized ramblings.

I've been spending the day processing what happened last night, and while some people will still hold out hope for a Bernie comeback, I think it's pretty clear that Biden will take the nomination. A sober analysis of the results shows that Bernie failed to turn out the youth and that he continues to struggle with particular voting blocs. We have to be able to come to grips with this if we're going to make any progress going forward.

Bernie's campaign and his theory of change are founded on the idea that large numbers of people don't vote because they see all politicians as part of the same, bought off class of bloodsuckers, but that if you speak to them and offer them something that will benefit them materially, you can mobilize them to vote. As an outsider to the Democratic Party, Bernie rejected the typical strategies employed by other Dems in favor of bringing in a new alliance of voters who would presumably be in favor of his cause. This didn't happen - or, rather, there were simply more people willing to vote for the safe choice of Biden than people willing to take a gamble on the more radical alternative. His campaign formed a sharpened voting base that was meant to cut through a divided field with 30% support. He succeeded in crafting that base, but not in expanding it. Until we can figure out (if we can figure out?) a way to get young people more active, since ideally we don't want to wait 20 more years until Boomers are all dead, we HAVE to engage better with broader audiences. If you don't, and you wish to turn away from electoralism, what exactly is your plan? How are you going to mobilize a general strike or insurrection when you can't even get people to go cast a ballot? Those things happen when material conditions permit them. That's not where this country is yet or those things would already be bubbling up.

Socialism cannot be, and must not be, the sole domain of young online people. Socialism is not an identity. It's a system, one that is meant to encompass all people, and that means electoralists need to find ways to appeal to all people. If you cannot win an election without the Boomers and Karens, then you better figure out how to appeal to the Boomers and Karens - at least to a better degree than you do already. Karen has just as much a right to control the means of production as you.

Bernie has three particular blocs that he struggles with - old people, middle class suburbanites, and black voters. Boomers want stability and they're terrified of the s-word; the second group also want stability as a consequence of their class position; the third is a bit trickier. Let's start there.

The 2016 Bernie campaign was rightfully criticized for its numerous racial gaffes, with Bernie constantly putting his foot in his mouth due to his lack of familiarity with black issues, having come from the very white state of Vermont. He took this to heart and rebuilt his 2020 campaign to be highly intersectional, and the diversity of his base shows the fruits of that labor(especially with Latinos!). It would no doubt put to bed the myth of the all-white Bernie Bros. if liberals could be honest for a minute about Bernie's supporters. And we know from the first three states that Bernie was favored by non-Southern black voters (not sure about NV here, actually), and from the pre-SC polls that Bernie was actually neck and neck or even overtaking Biden with black voters nationally. What this means is that black voters are not lost to socialists. First, they're not a monolith who just blindly vote for the establishment Dems. That's a racist caricature that needs to be stamped out. We know that as with other blocs there is a generational divide - Bernie tends to win or at least do well with young black voters, but loses handily with old black voters. This is no different than every other demo, except that even when he wins with young black voters, it seems to be by a lower amount. What we see, overall, is a bloc of voters who are by and large pragmatic in their decisions, because they need to be more than perhaps most other groups in this country. When Bernie had the momentum, he was starting to earn a lot of trust and support - but it was tenuous, and he failed to lock it down. He failed to transition to unifier status, to demonstrate that he was the best choice to defeat Trump. And that gave the establishment a chance to shore up behind Biden and to remind people of why he was the safe bet.

Black voters are not unreachable. There may be a hefty amount of black voters who are more conservative or moderate on average than other Dems by virtue of being forced into the party on account of the GOP's racism, but they know better than most how racist this country is and would like to see policies that would help end those injustices. We can improve greatly here by promoting more black comrades and people more intimately connected to and familiar with the needs and preferences of black voters. They want change. But they also need assurances that the Dem will win (in other words, that the other voting blocs won't freak out). And that can, and does, lead to strategic voting.

If that's the case, then we need to make ourselves the choice of strategic voters - or at least reduce the margins enough that even if we lose them, it's not a blowout.

Middle class suburbanites. Unlike the previous group, this one will always be hostile to socialism as a result of their class position - or they would be, if the middle class was not in the process of being liquidated, proletarianized, precarified. Remember, there is no actual "middle class" in the way Americans like to view it. Class is based on control of the MoP. Work with that. Everyone hates their boss, even (especially?) PMCs. We must remind them that they are also exploited workers, even if they are labor aristocrats. There is a lot we can play with here regarding economic struggles, but as a result of this group's bougie dreams, they tend to dislike the sort of rough and tumble, aggressive attitude of someone like Bernie. They want someone more cerebral, more academic - a Warren or Buttigieg or Obama. They want someone who reflects their own class dreams and aspirations and, failing to get it, will settle for the candidate who is more familiar and comforting like Biden. Socialists are always going to have an edge to them that people in this group are fearful of - but imagine if eloquent Buttigieg had followed more in the philosophical footsteps of his father, or if Warren was a bit more left. We can make inroads here. It just requires that we have some candidates who reflect these attitudes. AOC has the sort of charm and grace that I think a lot of these people are drawn to, but she may be too green for them right now. The other thing to remember is that these are the Resistance types who are proud to support the party and establishment. Someone who has worked through the party will be seen as less hostile than an independent who is trying to hijack the party. So far, it seems most demsocs are trying to infiltrate the party rather than pull a Bernie. That should help reduce fears about "disloyalty".

Old people - the toughest bloc to break into. They have decades and decades of propaganda that has formed their view of socialism, and studies show that people tend to stick to the beliefs formed during their 20s throughout their lives. But we have the best policies for them, bar none. Hammer that like there's no tomorrow and hope you can peel some of them off. I believe Bernie could have done this if he wasn't so entirely focused on youth and non-voter turnout.

It's a fairly daunting task to try to reorganize our methods of outreach to meet all these different and differing groups, but again - unless your plan is to just wait until 2040 or 2050 when Millennials and Gen Z are running the show, it has to be done. And if we just sit around and wait, the movement will collapse. Once Bernie's campaign is done, there will be no figurehead to solidify around unless AOC takes a shot in 2024, which we can't just assume. And socialism is about the masses, not leaders. So we must appeal to the masses, learn from the masses, be the masses.

Since we cannot know yet what the 2024 presidential race will look like, we need to find ways to keep socialism moving forward without it. That means doubling down on linking up with other activist movements, unions in particular, and building local power, whether electorally or otherwise. One of the prime problems that socialists face is that they are still often viewed as crazy kooks. Bernie and AOC have done a ton to start smashing that apart, but we need to go further. If we are going to convince the blocs that Bernie is losing that our theory is beneficial to them, we need to earn their trust. Building alliances and local power does that. When you have socialists everywhere reliably running things like sewer socialists, it will only help show their competence and value. It gets us more in touch with the masses, from whom our line must be drawn, and will encourage more people to join the ranks. The fact that I even have to say that shows the disconnect rhst exists between caddes and voters right now - we need to connect more, draw more from the working class, take more city council seats and state senate seats and so forth. The bench will grow so that we have more candidates to choose from in the future, which will help us connect to even more voters. Keep fighting for Congressional seats, even if we lose them. And even if we don't have a good presidential offer in a given year, keep holding the candidates who are running's feet to the fire.

There are great dangers inherent in reformism that I don't think I need to repeat here, at least not for this audience. I very much dislike that socialism in the US is primarily an electoral movement that separates "us" from "them", with the implication that "we" need to "educate" "them". I wish we had more of a presence in labor, but labor is so weak right now that it would not have much political value. The age of soviets controlling the government is past us, and the material conditions in the US are such that people have a weird hybrid stable-precarity that they aren't quite ready to abandon. Hence, we are forced by necessity to turn to liberal democratic elections. And we've gotten good results, to be fair! Bernie has done a lot for our movement. Socialism is now stronger in the US than its been in half a century. There was an exit poll from Texas - Texas! - showing a 57% favorable view of the word. People may not know what it means, but they know they like it. And with Bernie completing his role, we now have a chance to ensure everyone knows it means more than just social democracy.

We know that the fundamentals won't change under a Biden presidency. The dialectical struggle underpinning all of this rages on unabated. That means all the same issues destroying the country and the world will continue with some bandaids slapped on. We are in a better position now to be the alternative voice of reason and to build on the failures that will inevitably result. Liberalism cannot save itself - it can only delay its inevitable rot. Let us engage with the masses so that they can save themselves before the system collapses.

Fight, fail, fight again, fail again, fight again - until the people's victory.
Great post, sphagnum. I don't have point by point thoughts for all of it right now, but I read it through and am letting it percolate.

Even though I've had a few years to really settle into feeling electoralism can't do much more than tinker with the system, I won't deny that there are many positives with nonetheless campaigning around candidates like Bernie and AOC. If nothing else, the conversation comes to the fore and the movement builds, and we bide the time constructively until conditions are ripe. Couldn't agree more with the need to establish and strengthen alternate power structures also.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Great post, sphagnum. I don't have point by point thoughts for all of it right now, but I read it through and am letting it percolate.

Even though I've had a few years to really settle into feeling electoralism can't do much more than tinker with the system, I won't deny that there are many positives with nonetheless campaigning around candidates like Bernie and AOC. If nothing else, the conversation comes to the fore and the movement builds, and we bide the time constructively until conditions are ripe. Couldn't agree more with the need to establish and strengthen alternate power structures also.
More Unions is never a bad thing!
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
More Unions is never a bad thing!
All power to the soviets!

thumb_lenin-laser-eyes-meme-generator-53422528.png
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
Collectivized.

In all seriousness, hangups with soviets? (or whatever we would end up calling akin worker councils in the new world)
Like the actual Soviet Union? Everything.
Worker council's and collectives are fine.

Socialist policy can work; outright communism won't. Not unless we just all go live in communes. Which personally I'm not down for but hey you should have the freedom to go do that!
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
I used the lowercase s and plural form quite purposefully! As any good history will tell, world of difference between the soviets and the USSR.
I'd persuade anyone from using the term Soviet even un-ironically myself.

For that very reason. Most will hear Soviets and think Cold War Stalin and not worker council's and co-ops.
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
I'd persuade anyone from using the term Soviet even un-ironically myself.

For that very reason. Most will hear Soviets and think Cold War Stalin and not worker council's and co-ops.
I bristle at shying away from the history. We can accede to false notions of it, that the revolution should just be put into the "bad things done by bad people" bin of pop history, but that isn't my way nor what I think to be a good course. History is challenging, full of bias and imperfect people and conditions, and better to confront that head-on than repeat state propaganda uncritically.
 

Deleted member 82

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,626
Every now and then, I drop by this thread to lurk. Then I read shit like this, and I just hate myself for even being on Era, let-alone being in the thread.



You literally called the other political thread I post in a "cesspool", and talk about "basic libs". You, certainly, are not friendly.

This is literally the only time you've posted in this thread, and the way you chose to engage with this community is by calling out a frustrated poster on their tone, rather than have an actual discussion about content. There are a number of super well-informed and interesting posters and posts in this thread you could have engaged with, yet you chose the one that happened to vent because they vented wrong. That is part of my frustration, to be honest: the tone-policing, the impossibility of being frustrated and angry without having someone else fingerwag at you and going "that's not very nice, you're not gonna win us over like this". It's bad enough when it happens in other threads, so I'd like it if we didn't have to deal with it in this one as well. As I've said, I try my best not to visit PoliERA, let alone post in it; I know I'd butt heads with a dominant ideology and way of arguing that I vehemently disagree with, and it wouldn't be productive for anyone involved. I don't like liberalism. Likewise, I doubt it's productive for you to hang out in this thread if the only comments you're gonna make are about how we're mean.

sphagnum : Brilliant post, and I share your analysis of Bernie's shortcomings. Conversely, I think his strengths (such as the strong support of Latinx voters) is what is going to cost Biden the GE. The anti-Trump sentiment only goes so far without actually engaging with the needs of different demographics - this applies to every candidate. What people seem to forget is that "anti-Trumpism" isn't new. People already hated Trump back in 2016. It's not enough to prone a return to decency like Biden does. Plus, this time, the Republican party is united behind Trump. There's something to be said for Bernie's big base of passionate supporters, sure, but I honestly think Trump's base of passionate supporters might be bigger than Bernie's, let alone Biden's. I still see a very slim, tiny chance for Bernie to win or at least significantly close the gap if Warren throws her full support behind him and they both play their cards well, but it's unlikely to be enough.
 

TheHunter

Bold Bur3n Wrangler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,774
This is literally the only time you've posted in this thread, and the way you chose to engage with this community is by calling out a frustrated poster on their tone, rather than have an actual discussion about content. There are a number of super well-informed and interesting posters and posts in this thread you could have engaged with, yet you chose the one that happened to vent because they vented wrong. That is part of my frustration, to be honest: the tone-policing, the impossibility of being frustrated and angry without having someone else fingerwag at you and going "that's not very nice, you're not gonna win us over like this". It's bad enough when it happens in other threads, so I'd like it if we didn't have to deal with it in this one as well. As I've said, I try my best not to visit PoliERA, let alone post in it; I know I'd butt heads with a dominant ideology and way of arguing that I vehemently disagree with, and it wouldn't be productive for anyone involved. I don't like liberalism. Likewise, I doubt it's productive for you to hang out in this thread if the only comments you're gonna make are about how we're mean.

sphagnum : Brilliant post, and I share your analysis of Bernie's shortcomings. Conversely, I think his strengths (such as the strong support of Latinx voters) is what is going to cost Biden the GE. The anti-Trump sentiment only goes so far without actually engaging with the needs of different demographics - this applies to every candidate. What people seem to forget is that "anti-Trumpism" isn't new. People already hated Trump back in 2016. It's not enough to prone a return to decency like Biden does. Plus, this time, the Republican party is united behind Trump. There's something to be said for Bernie's big base of passionate supporters, sure, but I honestly think Trump's base of passionate supporters might be bigger than Bernie's, let alone Biden's. I still see a very slim, tiny chance for Bernie to win or at least significantly close the gap if Warren throws her full support behind him and they both play their cards well, but it's unlikely to be enough.
Actually this tends to a problem that alot of leftists have in an electoral system.

If you want to win the argument and push the Dems leftward, building bridges and not painting with such a wide brush helps. After all, many of the people who are Liberals (myself included) want a better tomorrow. Taking such a hostile and combative stance is not helping to make the case, and one of the reasons Bernie's style of politics doesn't work IMO.

AOC understands this and I think the left in America will be better off with her stewardship. ThoughtSlime has a video on this very issue.

Quite a few of us in Poliera were/are Bernie supporters. In fact almost all of us prefer him to Bloomberg.

Biden is a case of meh for a decent chunk. I won't deny we all love Warren.

But cesspoll is crossing a line.
 

Deleted member 8644

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
975
Actually this tends to a problem that alot of leftists have in an electoral system.

If you want to win the argument and push the Dems leftward, building bridges and not painting with such a wide brush helps. After all, many of the people who are Liberals (myself included) want a better tomorrow. Taking such a hostile and combative stance is not helping to make the case, and one of the reasons Bernie's style of politics doesn't work IMO.

AOC understands this and I think the left in America will be better off with her stewardship. ThoughtSlime has a video on this very issue.

Quite a few of us in Poliera were/are Bernie supporters. In fact almost all of us prefer him to Bloomberg.

Biden is a case of meh for a decent chunk. I won't deny we all love Warren.

But cesspoll is crossing a line.
"we (not all, mind you) prefer sanders to a piece of complete garbage, that's being allies"
You don't want to understand why people on the left don't consider liberals allies. You directly support the system that creates the inequalities and the problems. You may disagree that the system is culpable, but that's the left's viewpoint, and under that viewpoint we may have some common fights, but we're not on the same side.