I mean, I don't dislike her because I'm a centrist or establishment shill.
I dislike her because she's an idiot.
AoC and the Squad on the other hand are much better. More of them please!
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I dislike her because she's an idiot.
AoC and the Squad on the other hand are much better. More of them please!
That's a little harsh! I hope you'll warm up to her. She's very popular on the left.
The Nazis have rebranded themselves as the more "palatable" alt-right, and the media assists them with this. Not just Fox either. Recall how CNN and Jake Tapper gave a platform to Richard Spencer? Remember the countless puff pieces and interviews with white supremacists by respected publications?
When the 24 hour news cycle is shouting this shit into your brain 24/7, it becomes difficult for the uninformed to be able to indentify a fascist.
Shunning the people who cannot identify a fascist is not helpful. We should be trying to think of ways to convert these people and awaken their class consciousness.
That is why you will generally not find us shaming people for not voting, voting 3rd party, or even voting Republican.
Nazi counter proliferation isn't just about punching the guy with the swastika arm band's lights out - as fun as that is. Fascism can be structural and people can unwittingly acquiesce to it.
They may have rebranded, but they are still selling the same product.
You know that, and I know that. But does an out of work Apalachian coal miner know that?
That's what propaganda does. It obfuscates.
i'm canadian but chapo's post 2016 election episode persuaded me
I think this article highlights the nature of structural fascism extremely well-- and the nature of a distributed, discretized fascism which exists more in containers which can be filled by any people, acted out in pre-established relationships to other people in contradistinction to a fascism purely of individuals.
It's a precis of a book by Stuart Schrader, who's a Johns Hopkins researcher acting as the Associate Director of the Program in Racism, Immigration, and Citizenship. I think he's someone whose insights are valuable. This tackles the problem through the lens of policing in particular but its principles demonstrate how the issue is much broader in scope than initially understood.
It's a precis of a book by Stuart Schrader, who's a Johns Hopkins researcher acting as the Associate Director of the Program in Racism, Immigration, and Citizenship. I think he's someone whose insights are valuable. This tackles the problem through the lens of policing in particular but its principles demonstrate how the issue is much broader in scope than initially understood.
Nice. I do figure different things will work for all sorts of people. It's just I keep hearing chapo get brought up by people who seem to be miserable hearing about them. I'm just saying they're free to change the channel to something else. lol
This is very unconvincing, but I guess that whole "try to convince people with open communication" thing only applies to the white supremacists for some reason.
The people I know were perfectly able to identify a fascist. It seems very condescending to suggest that these other people somehow weren't. I don't think it is appropriate or productive to imagine that these good working class people are simply too ignorant or lacking in mental capacity not to know what to think unless they're told what to think. It robs them of their personal and moral agency. I try to give them more respect than that.
Oh, plenty of things! Do you want examples? And could you answer my question?
USA was the primary contributor to defeating the Nazis in WWII, Vietnam was a complicated issue, US intervention is necessary for maintaining peace and stability throughout the world, the civil rights movements were driven purely by liberal notions of equality and justice and more radical movements collapsed because their ideology couldn't compete...
Are you really about to argue that propaganda doesn't work? You don't think you're immune to propaganda yourself, do you?
Sorry, which argument did you end up pretending to care about this time? What was I trying to convince you of that you didn't already prove yourself?
Sure. Of course I believe that propaganda -- or the more anodyne concept of communication designed to persuade -- is effective. That is why I think it is important to propagandize the idea that white supremacy is an atrocity, and that we have a moral responsibility to oppose it with all the vigor at our command, whether it is as dramatic as direct action or as minor as casting a vote against it. Indeed, the more you believe that propaganda is an important tool, the more you should be engaging in this. It has proven to be effective over time and is a course of action advanced by many historical socialists, such as King.
What I find surprising and distressing is how often I encounter people who purport to be leftists but who affirmatively and even proudly announce their refusal to engage in that propagandizing. It seems to be to be an explicit refusal of solidarity! A leftist movement that cannot offer solidarity to people of color may one day achieve a herrenvolk state, which might be personally beneficial to some, but it would be impossible to advance the cause of socialism thereby.
I don't understand your response at all, since it seems to hinge on the precise definition of "material circumstances," which, as an uneducated prole, I don't fully grasp. Can you explain a little more clearly? Are you saying that even being born in a country with a long history of white supremacy is a "material circumstance"? Wouldn't that expand the definition of "material circumstance" to, essentially, "circumstance?"
Yeah. Circumstances are material, not metaphysical. They have explanations, and you've offered one: people are born into it, are raised into it, and prefer it. Note that you brought the term into the discussion.
Also, how do you propagandize against it if you refuse and condemn communication with the people who are susceptible to it? Moreover, if white supremacy is a dominant ideology of American culture, how did you escape it and why are others condemned to this tautology you defer to, that they are white supremacists because they are white supremacists?
You can spare us your concern here. Lots of minorities within and behind this thread.
You said leftists refuse to extend solidarity with minorities. We are largely minorities in here and we're still in "error" according to you? And what's more is you're saying our existence in this space somehow makes things worse.
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Killer Mike gave me some killer goosebumps.
I swear the Bernie campaign knows how to hype me up. It warms my heart how much solidarity there is regardless of ethnicity, sex, religion or other differences. No other candidate comes even remotely close to achieving that.
This seems like a misunderstanding. I'm not saying all leftists always refuse to extend solidarity with minorities. That would be absurd. I'm a leftist, and I think I do okay. I'm offering a specific critique of a specific action and giving my explanation for why it undermines solidarity. Your response seems to be...a representational argument? The goal is justice, not representation. People of color are perfectly capable of individually taking actions that undermine solidarity and support oppression, and I'm perfectly capable of pointing that out, and asking them in a comradely fashion, from one person of color to another, to stop doing it.
I mistook your argument as one directed at the community on this forum. I can't speak on whatever other leftists outside you supposedly meet that - as you say - refuse to engage fascist propaganda and thus that appears to be an explicit refusal of solidarity toward POCs. That hasn't been my experience - certainly not here. Otherwise, I don't think our presence here would be stable and growing as it has been. That would refute that indictment in the context of this community, but now I think you were actually speaking more broadly.
Either way, it is strange that you switched from being dismissive of the effectiveness of propaganda and how susceptible people are to it; to now saying that it is something especially concerning to you for the sake of leftists building solidarity with POCs. It does appear like an evasive turn. Especially because forming solidarity with POCs is more than just saying "Nazis bad". I think it's more about recognizing common class struggles while understanding issues more unique to their identities.
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It's directed at a specific behavior engaged in by some people on this forum, yes. The context is all in this thread.
Again, this idea that, because there are many people of color in this thread, it is impossible for them to be doing something that contributes to white supremacy, is bafflingly misguided and not responsive to the specific critique.
I'm not sure what I would be evading or why, and I think it is a misreading to suggest I was being "dismissive of the effectiveness of propaganda." I was being dismissive of the use of the concept of propaganda as part of apologism for the support of white supremacy.
This is actually in the post of mine you quoted!
I don't understand your point. Are you equating not voting or voting conservative as endorsing fascism?
Should we not be trying to reach these people? Should we not try to make these people realise they're voting against their own interests? Shouldn't we be trying to show these people that the struggles of PoC are also their struggles?
I admit that treating conservative voters from Queensland as pariahs would be pretty cathartic, but it would solve nothing and only reinforce their decision to vote conservative or draw a dick on the ballot next election.
Should we not be trying to reach these people? Should we not try to make these people realise they're voting against their own interests? Shouldn't we be trying to show these people that the struggles of PoC are also their struggles?
I admit that treating conservative voters from Queensland as pariahs would be pretty cathartic, but it would solve nothing and only reinforce their decision to vote conservative or draw a dick on the ballot next election.
Nobody is in here apologizing for white supremacy. There are many facets to the issues that require different responses. You can't use a hammer in every case. And yes, you were being dismissive. People expliained how propaganda works and you countered with: "The people I know were perfectly able to identify a fascist."
The first time you were asked you dodged with a question of your own: "What has propaganda compelled you to believe, personally?"
That clearly implied skepticism of how effective it can be
Now I might be a simple down-home country libertarian municipalist who don't know nothing about no propaganda wackadoodling, but I have a hard time seeing the contradiction between what Slek said and full-throated opposition to white supremacy.
As we enter Iowa tomorrow, I am cautiously optimistic. The circumstances for a Bernie presidency couldn't be better, in my opinion. But even if we win Iowa, it's only the beginning. Hell, even if we win the White House, it's only the beginning. This is about more than beating the moderates with a chokehold on the Democrat party, this is about more than beating Trump. This is about sending the country, and the world, on a trajectory where we can believe in something besides rampant, unchecked capitalism and neoliberalism. We can say "feel the bern," but all Bernie can do is light the match. We have to fan the flames.
Win or lose, the movement continues. But let's try to win this thing while we can.
What kind of heartless, selfish piece of shit do you have to be, to be as equally concerned with Bernie as Trump? I hope none of these people consider themselves anything but right-wing.
OP
OP
"Fear not, Prince Eugen von Fukklestichs, this democracy thing is but a fad!"
It's 90% from one community we can't name for 'reasons'. They seem very 'concerned' about bernie though.
If Bloomberg won the nom, I straight up might become a Bernie-Or-Buster. At that point you're just voting for whether you want to be stabbed or shot to death.