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collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
As long a ruling Socialist party (in any country) aims towards improving Capitalism, there isn't much to complain about... But if it goes "capitalism is the root of all problems" then is just populism disguised as a political view.
OK but if by your own admission you think that socialism is something that can be workable after capitalism has been sufficiently improved, it would be expected that at some point the ruling socialist parties of these countries would you know, actually implement socialism.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
First of all, my main point in that previous post is that Capitalism isn't perfect, but clearly other countries handle it better (miles better) than the US, which is the main source of complains in this thread: Let's talk about healthcare in Canada or France, or even the UK, let's talk about food warning labels in Chile, let's talk about livable city design in Europe... and most of those countries have capitalist systems with medium/strong left-wing political parties in charge.

As long a ruling Socialist party (in any country) aims towards improving Capitalism, there isn't much to complain about... But if it goes "capitalism is the root of all problems" then is just populism disguised as a political view.
Most westwrn European countries exploited and killed billions of other people to achieve their vast capitalist wealth systems. Like we always forget that footnote
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
"Decent" is not the word I would use to describe Cuba, but you do you.

I'm not sure how decent is judged, but I think Cuba is a decent country. It's a country that has made mistakes like any other country out there, but you really can't talk about Cuba without talking about America.

For example, Cuba is doing pretty decent considering they're living next to one of the most violent and arrogant maniacs on the planet. This psychopathic country, with a penchant for supporting brutal and thieving dictators like Fulgencio Batista, has been trying to dominate and exclude Cuba out of the global system for 60 years now, with decades-spanning brutal sanctions that approach human rights violation levels.

Before the embargoes, Cuba imported almost 100% of its materials and goods from the USA. You can imagine how an USA embargo can harm a country that was so reliant on trade with it. So if Cuba's not decent, then I imagine all of the sanctions, targeted assassinations, and planned coups has had some help crafting the country.

But in spite of all the unique challenges here and the USA doing all of this so that it can paint Cuba as a cautionary tale of socialism, the Cuban people are largely doing OK.
www.theatlantic.com

How Cubans Live as Long as Americans at a Tenth of the Cost

Lessons of physical prosperity in a despotic regime

Cuba's GDP is decent compared to a few of its more capitalist contemporaries like Jamaica or Dominican Republic or Haiti

Cuba-GDP-compared.png



They've also done pretty well when it comes to pandemics.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
If Socialism was against human nature the US wouldn't have had to go all over the world killing millions of people to prevent it from taking hold.

Capitalism is not natural, it's not the default, it's an economic system by the rich and for the rich, and it's being held in place to a large degree by violence.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
New York
Arg, fuck all these ideologies, lol. Lemme try and get this broken down so I can comprehend. For those that want socialism implemented around the world: Which countries today are doing it "correctly" or as close to correctly as you believe is currently possible? That's what I want to know. Reading this thread everyone getting so caught up on definitions and theories and shit. I need examples. And not just examples of capitalism failing. Where are examples of socialism doing it right? And I'm not suggesting they don't exist. I really don't know (this ain't my forte as you might have guessed).

Human nature tends to be averse to risks except when required. I'm not really into socialism as I've read/understand but I'm an American making a decent salary so that's easy as shit for me to say when the bills are paid. I'm all for changing policies to help more people. It's just I get a little nervous if shit goes hardcore and folks wanna drag landlords out their homes and kill them.

What someone calls socialism I might call investing in your nation so its populace can thrive. Ain't the 1950's anymore. Red scare is over. Yet America was willing to invest in its (white) citizens via redistribution of wealth. (I'm looking at you homestead act, GI Bill, etc) I just wanna make sure I'm understanding what it is people want? Something that realistically works or some intellectual theory that's great on paper but doesn't mesh w/ reality?

Sorry if I'm all over the place. I don't feel I'm qualified to make blanket statements about these systems as I haven't studied them in depth but wanted to attempt to get some feedback on how everyone views a successful example of socialism.

If Socialism was against human nature the US wouldn't have had to go all over the world killing millions of people to prevent it from taking hold.

Capitalism is not natural, it's not the default, it's an economic system by the rich and for the rich, and it's being held in place to a large degree by violence.

Everything is by the upper-crust and typically benefits the upper-crust the most. Don't matter what it's called.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Again, you are talking with a very narrow point of view, which is US' corporativism: You are the ones with 5 pharmaceutical ads per minute in your TV, the ones with sugar disguised as breakfast, and the ones who have more land dedicated to parking lots than for people.
You have missed my point that "corporatism" was built by the "capital amassing" capitalist defenders love so much and is a valid expression of capitalism. You did not address why "amassing capital" is good when a private middle class individual does it, but not when a corporation does it.

The government is the one in charge of saying "NO!" to greed, the one to stop any kind of monopoly, and the ones in charge of creating ideal environments for the development of a better society. If your legislation can't control private corporations, blame your government and/or political system, not the economic system that works fine everywhere else.
So for capitalism to work, you need a strong government that tells the capitalists to stop doing capitalism things? I don't strictly disagree with this, it is the basis of most socdem platforms, but if capitalism only works with a nanny state that has the last word on what people are allowed to do with their wealth, well, guess what, this is exactly what the socialists want as well.
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
OK but if by your own admission you think that socialism is something that can be workable after capitalism has been sufficiently improved, it would be expected that at some point the ruling socialist parties of these countries would you know, actually implement socialism.

To me, Social Democracy is the closest to a achieveable and succesful socialist system implementation I can see.

Taking that into account, then yes, socialism (social democracy) can be implemented, and not only as a goal far away into the future, but actually anywhere at any time.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,309
New York
I think there is a huge, important difference between the governments the US try to coup and the governments the US try to install.

I'm more talking about governments worldwide throughout the entirety of human history. And you're not wrong about that. US has snuffed out elected governments through the world just cause that shit bad for business and installed dictators just to get a good deal on their exports.

Freedom. Free Doom, lol.
 

Deleted member 2834

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,620
So for capitalism to work, you need a strong government that tells the capitalists to stop doing capitalism things? I don't strictly disagree with this, it is the basis of most socdem platforms, but if capitalism only works with a nanny state that has the last word on what people are allowed to do with their wealth, well, guess what, this is exactly what the socialists want as well.
No it isn't. Socialists don't want to regulate capitalism, they want to abolish the market economy?
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
Most westwrn European countries exploited and killed billions of other people to achieve their vast capitalist wealth systems. Like we always forget that footnote
How do you think most Eastern Bloc countries managed to achieve their leaps in economic development? They exploited and killed millions of their own people. Like we always forget that footnote.
Also your "billions" is way off, but that's not my point.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
No it isn't. Socialists don't want to regulate capitalism, they want to abolish the market economy?
1) A state that can abolish the market economy is by definition also one that can regulate it, one is a less extensive use of state power than the other, therefore every socialist state is by definition capable of idealized socdem regulation should they choose to do so
2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

I think we went over this in your last thread about capitalism but you probably checked out and missed where the conversation went.

Edit, yeah here it is:
Hybrid, about 50/50 planned/market with no private (singular) ownership of means of production, but co-ownership (by workers) still permitted. Loan interest, banned. Landlording, heavily restricted, you are only allowed to sublet a place you personally live in. Transnational investment, oh yeah you bet I'm banning that, and most kinds of private investment really.
www.resetera.com

Anti-Capitalists on Era: Are you actually in favor of a planned economy like in the Soviet Union or do you just wish for a capitalist mixed economy?

I'm actually curious because I read quite a bit about economic systems, as well as Archie Brown's fantastic book "The Rise and Fall of Communism" lately (which I haven't finished yet) and I have a hard time understanding how anyone would advocate for a planned economy. They have never worked and...
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
No it isn't. Socialists don't want to regulate capitalism, they want to abolish the market economy?
There are systems which don't work this way. Under market socialism, there is still a market economy but the ownership is in the hands of the workers through much stronger cooperatives.

As long as the means of production is in the hands of the workers, it is socialist. It doesn't need to be an ML style planned economy.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
How do you think most Eastern Bloc countries managed to achieve their leaps in economic development? They exploited and killed millions of their own people. Like we always forget that footnote.
Also your "billions" is way off, but that's not my point.
"Makes it critique about capitalism"
And you come in something that no one is even talking about and I'm not talking about. And goes what about the ussr. As if that is a valid response to what I was talking about.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
What someone calls socialism I might call investing in your nation so its populace can thrive. Ain't the 1950's anymore. Red scare is over. Yet America was willing to invest in its (white) citizens via redistribution of wealth. (I'm looking at you homestead act, GI Bill, etc) I just wanna make sure I'm understanding what it is people want? Something that realistically works or some intellectual theory that's great on paper but doesn't mesh w/ reality?
The difference between the redistribution done via a welfare state/social democracy you're describing here and socialism is that the former still maintains the imbalanced relationship between workers and their bosses. Having enough money to pay the bills is very important, but it's not the only way that working conditions affect one's life and having a separate social safety net introduced issues of its own. So to answer your question of what I want, I would say that I want systemic legal changes that aren't reactive and attempting to temper the ills of capitalism but changes that instead aim to create conditions where these ills are less likely to crop up in the first place. This is accomplished by giving people whose lives are affected by a given company a greater say in how these companies operate.

Ironically, I think this means that Warren's Accountable Capitalism Act is probably the "most socialist" law proposal I can think of off the top of my head since it basically mandates partial socialism for big enough companies. Traditionally though, the reality of socialism generally manifests in the form of labor organizing as unions are more effective at ensuring better lives for people than the low bar for redistribution set by the minimum wage.

That's not to say I don't want direct redistribution too though of course, but redistribution of wealth should be considered a benefit of redistributing power rather than an end goal unto itself. Housing/landlords are a special case that can't be easily compared to other industries so let's not get into that huge can of worms.
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
So for capitalism to work, you need a strong government that tells the capitalists to stop doing capitalism things? I don't strictly disagree with this, it is the basis of most socdem platforms, but if capitalism only works with a nanny state that has the last word on what people are allowed to do with their wealth, well, guess what, this is exactly what the socialists want as well.

I have a lighter. A lighter can start a stove, bring me some warm in a cold night, light a birthday candle... and also burn thousand of acres of woods. What prevents me of doing the last one? The existence of a punishment, because by doing so I'm commiting a crime.

Capitalism as a concept works the same: You can amass capital (light some woods) to your benefit, but the goverment/law should stop you if you go out of control and burn everything at hand.

And to make it clear, we don't need a Nanny State, but the main goal of a goverment and its branches is always to regulate how WE function as a society. The regulation of the economy is necessary, and by not doing so you are giving free reigns to business to do whatever they want without consequences. This obviously corrupts the system and tranforms into Corporativism, as the corporations are the ones ruling the country and not the goverment.
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
"Makes it critique about capitalism"
And you come in something that no one is even talking about and I'm not talking about. And goes what about the ussr. As if that is a valid response to what I was talking about.
You're quite incoherent.
You basically responded to
As long a ruling Socialist party (in any country) aims towards improving Capitalism, there isn't much to complain about... But if it goes "capitalism is the root of all problems" then is just populism disguised as a political view.
with
Most westwrn European countries exploited and killed billions of other people to achieve their vast capitalist wealth systems. Like we always forget that footnote
To convince the user that capitalism is indeed the root of all evil. To which I replied that you completely ignored the fact that socialist societies mostly murdered and exploited their own people, by the millions, which is pretty damn evil too.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
You're quite incoherent.
You basically responded to

with

To convince the user that capitalism is indeed the root of all evil. To which I replied that you completely ignored the fact that socialist societies mostly murdered and exploited their own people, by the millions, which is pretty damn evil too.
Where in my post was i talking about the Soviet Union? Like you do know that I do not like the Soviet Union? Like if you're going to waste my time atleast be part of the conversation I was talking about.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I just wanna make sure I'm understanding what it is people want? Something that realistically works or some intellectual theory that's great on paper but doesn't mesh w/ reality?
Collige's post is more eloquent but I feel like you want some specifics so here you go.
About 50/50 planned/market with no private (singular) ownership of means of production, but co-ownership (by workers) still permitted. Loan interest, banned. Landlording, heavily restricted, you are only allowed to sublet a place you personally live in. Transnational investment, oh yeah you bet I'm banning that, and most kinds of private investment really.
And this is just my own socialism and not every socialist wants what I want, it is a "big tent" in the same way Dems are, I cannot speak for all socialists, just myself.

And regarding the US specifically:
UBI
Medical care free at the point of service, paid for by the state
Reparations to ADOS and American Indigenes
Free higher education, paid for by the state
Guaranteed housing/food, no one goes hungry if there's food left on the shelves and no one goes homeless if there are empty buildings
Restructuring the legal code to promote worker ownership (worker-owners) and reduce/discourage private ownership (employers and employees)
Abolish the prison-industrial-complex and probably most prisons
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
To me, Social Democracy is the closest to a achieveable and succesful socialist system implementation I can see.

Taking that into account, then yes, socialism (social democracy) can be implemented, and not only as a goal far away into the future, but actually anywhere at any time.
I think it's a bit naive to expect that every other socialist to reach the same conclusion as you that social democracy is the Best We Can Do, especially in perpetuity into the future.

I have a lighter. A lighter can start a stove, bring me some warm in a cold night, light a birthday candle... and also burn thousand of acres of woods. What prevents me of doing the last one? The existence of a punishment, because by doing so I'm commiting a crime.

Capitalism as a concept works the same: You can amass capital (light some woods) to your benefit, but the goverment/law should stop you if you go out of control and burn everything at hand.
This is a weird example to bring up since every single country you listed as a success is failing at doing this very thing as we speak.

climateactiontracker.org

Canada

climateactiontracker.org

EU


The great regulators of the EU and Canada are literally "insufficient" at meeting their own goals for stopping the burning of THE ENTIRE PLANET.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,150
What do you consider socialist? European countries today? The ussr? China?

It's always hard to the tell what Americans mean by socialism because some think Sweden or Germany are socialist hellholes.

If you consider the GDR a socialist country I could bring in my grandmother to tell you how well that worked out. She probably hates the leaders of the GDR as much as the nazies and she lived through both. To be fair the government took their land that belonged to them and forced them to work for the state.

On the other hand the current state of Germany is by far from perfect but miles better than what came before. At least noone is going bankrupt from minor or major injuries not to speak of all the democratic freedoms that brings us the current system .
 

McScroggz

The Fallen
Jan 11, 2018
5,973
The ideal "realistic" structure is a good balance between socialism and properly controlled capitalism. The problem is how the heck do we actually put reigns on capitalism in America right now?
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
Where in my post was i talking about the Soviet Union? Like you do know that I do not like the Soviet Union? Like if you're going to waste my time atleast be part of the conversation I was talking about.
What? Yes, you didn't bring up the Soviet Union, that's the point. I don't care if you like the Soviet Union.
I brought up Eastern Bloc societies, not just the SU, which have exploited and murdered millions of their own citizens to advance their economic goals.
Why? Due to your "Most westwrn European countries exploited and killed billions of other people to achieve their vast capitalist wealth systems. Like we always forget that footnote".
But why though? Because exploiting and killing scores of people for economic reasons is not exactly exclusive to Western European (capitalist) countries.
Was I wrong to bring it up in a discussion which centers around socialism vs capitalism, in response to your statement? I don't think so.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
If Socialism was against human nature the US wouldn't have had to go all over the world killing millions of people to prevent it from taking hold.

Capitalism is not natural, it's not the default, it's an economic system by the rich and for the rich, and it's being held in place to a large degree by violence.

How do you even determine what's "natural" or "default"?
 

fragamemnon

Member
Nov 30, 2017
6,843
One complex part of this discussion is that of the set of national values and traditions people carry- to them, these values might as well be part of human nature because it is what they know. This sociologically might not be sensible/factual at all but to the average citizen in a country like the USA with a strong national identity, it is really common.

The right reply to the inherent greed argument if they are American is the country's stated ideal of equality of opportunity and either continue along a common shared axis of values in your discussion or at least get to the far more honest "of course I want the American dream to be a thing, just not for those people" part of the conversation.
 

Jakenbakin

Member
Jun 17, 2018
11,817


I imagine socialists in here might know about Lee Carter, but if you don't he's the socialist representative in Virginia that just introduced that bill leading to cheaper insulin costs. He's pretty fun on Twitter. I have no idea of the viability of this effort but this seemed a good thread to let people who might want to know about him.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,212


I imagine socialists in here might know about Lee Carter, but if you don't he's the socialist representative in Virginia that just introduced that bill leading to cheaper insulin costs. He's pretty fun on Twitter. I have no idea of the viability of this effort but this seemed a good thread to let people who might want to know about him.


Carter 2021!
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
I think it's a bit naive to expect that every other socialist to reach the same conclusion as you that social democracy is the Best We Can Do, especially in perpetuity into the future.

I know, that's just my opinion on the viability of Socialism.

The great regulators of the EU and Canada are literally "insufficient" at meeting their own goals for stopping the burning of THE ENTIRE PLANET.

I clearly mentioned Canada, France, and even the UK as the closest there is to 'role models' over healthcare, in reference to the US failure in the matter. I never mentioned "climate change" before.

... But now that you bring the subject, it's curious to see precisely Chile, Canada, France, and the UK as the most advanced countries in the area in that ranking page you brought. Still in the 'insuficient' tier, but doing more than almost half of the globe in that list. The US, leading example in corporativism, is in the last tier with Russia.
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
Every form of class rule in society has presented itself as eternal and natural. For instance, in ancient societies that primarily relied on slave labor:

those who are as different [from other men] as the soul from the body or man from beast—and they are in this state if their work is the use of the body, and if this is the best that can come from them—are slaves by nature. For them it is better to be ruled in accordance with this sort of rule, if such is the case for the other things mentioned.

That is from Aristotle. Even a genius like him bought into the prejudices of the time. And what of feudalism?

In medieval society, one sees how the Great Chain of Being extended into the political sphere as well. For here too there was a distinct separation or hierarchy between human beings. The king reigned supreme at the top, and below him were the aristocratic lords. At the bottom were the serfs. Solidifying the king's position atop of humanity's social order was the doctrine of the divine right of kings. Likewise, in the family the father was head of the household and below him was his wife, then their children. The children were even often subdivided so that the sons were considered to be one rung above the daughters.

In this case, the hierarchy is naturalized through the will of God. God has created a Great Chain of Being which determines the social order. Any attempt to go against this order is to go against the will of God, and the natural order of things.

And in capitalism too, we see how a historically specific form of class rule is presented as a eternal and natural system which you MUST not disturb. It is funny how seemingly smart, educated people fall for this over-a-thousand-year-old trick. But I suppose the same thing applied even to Aristotle.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
This thread is so depressing.

This is a videogame enthusiast forum that is majority white and definitely majority privileged. And it's tough to get mostly privileged people to not only acknowledge their privilege but to argue for giving up a lot of that privilege for a fairer society.

Capitalism: means of production are privately owned, and its whole purpose is simply to increase profits for private interests.
Socialism: public owned means of production, and its whole purpose is to make sure wealth and property isn't hoarded by a few private interests.

On an empathy and humanistic side, it's easy to see where socialism wins out and why it's argued for. So that's why some want the conversation to be shifted at all times to talking about the failures of implementing socialism throughout history, while making excuses for 150+ years of the global capitalist hegemony choking the life out of its own people and the planet at large so that the few rake in almost all of the benefits.

Relevant good vid from last month :
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I clearly mentioned Canada, France, and even the UK as the closest there is to 'role models' over healthcare, in reference to the US failure in the matter. I never mentioned "climate change" before.

... But now that you bring the subject, it's curious to see precisely Chile, Canada, France, and the UK as the most advanced countries in the area in that ranking page you brought. Still in the 'insuficient' tier, but doing more than almost half of the globe in that list. The US, leading example in corporativism, is in the last tier with Russia.
You mentioned "burning thousands of acres of woods" which is something that is happening now and literally causes climate change. The reality we live in is that everything at hand is being burned regardless of how "corporativist" a country is. There are no participation trophies for only failing half as hard as the US at stopping the destruction of our environment.
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
Collige's post is more eloquent but I feel like you want some specifics so here you go.

And this is just my own socialism and not every socialist wants what I want, it is a "big tent" in the same way Dems are, I cannot speak for all socialists, just myself.

And regarding the US specifically:
  1. UBI
  2. Medical care free at the point of service, paid for by the state
  3. Reparations to ADOS and American Indigenes
  4. Free higher education, paid for by the state
  5. Guaranteed housing/food, no one goes hungry if there's food left on the shelves and no one goes homeless if there are empty buildings
  6. Restructuring the legal code to promote worker ownership (worker-owners) and reduce/discourage private ownership (employers and employees)
  7. Abolish the prison-industrial-complex and probably most prisons
I numbered your point to have an easier time responding. I know I still owe you a response in the other thread, but here's what I'm curious about:
Except for 6 none of what you want actually contradicts capitalist social democracies or what they (most likely) are heading towards.
  1. Personally I think is something that is guaranteed to be enacted in the next decade and in its primal form is actually already in place in most Western countries through strong social safety nets or welfare
  2. Also already there, but mostly through mandatory taxation - which is fine, isn't it?
  3. Not applicable, but can be converted to victims of colonialization or victims of ww2. Personally I don't think enough has been done to address this, but I also don't think it should part of the socialism vs capitalism discussion - it should matter regardless of that
  4. Already there
  5. Similar to, covered by 1
  6. I have no idea what that means tbh. Self-employment the become normative?
  7. Unless I'm mistaken prisons are not privately owned and mostly aimed towards rehabilitating prisoners. I think only UK and Asian countries fall from grace here
So maybe you just want social democracy in US?
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
You aren't going to get even half the countries in the world to be social democracies with high living standards. It's just not happening. This is by far a more utopic pipe dream than liberals accuse socialists of doing. The root character of capitalism is exploitation which on a global scale is an extractive force. Many countries have to have their resources extracted and labor exploited under threat of imperialist violence for other countries to have high living standards and commodities and "consumer choices" that people say they love about "first world" countries
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
That's the point tho. There's nothing 'natural' about any of these systems so saying capitalism is natural is nonsense.

The claim is that capitalism is the inevitable end state of all human societies.
I personally think it's hogwash.

I'd argue that all these systems are natural (meaning they're all rooted in various aspects of human nature), so claiming that one is more "natural" than another is pointless.
 
OP
OP
Spinluck

Spinluck

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
28,469
Chicago
aa3.gif


This system literally beats the empathy out of people. Has lots of people believing in order to gain the permission to exist you have to be better than the next guy or lady cleaning your toilet. I don't think this is true, it doesn't have to be this way!!!
 
Nov 13, 2020
147
People also think too abstractly about social democracy. As if it is as simply a switch that one can turn on at will. Think about it in this way. In capitalist society, the owners of capital form the ruling class. They control the economic forces of society, and through that control the political system. So how then, would you get social democracy from this?

The answer is that you need a specific combination of factors. The first is the need to appease the workers. If the workers have formed an organized force and are beginning to threaten your class rule, you need to give concessions in order to make them back down. In other words, the fear of socialism is essential in making the capitalists concede to a social democratic system.

The second element is a high rate of profit. The capitalists are only willing to accept a certain amount of wealth distribution. If profitably is high, they are more willing to throw some scraps our way. Only if they have to, of course. But when profitability declines, and the danger of socialism recedes, then both the factors leading to social democracy are dead.

And as a matter of fact, that event did happen. The post war era saw unprecedented levels of profit, so social democracy was seen as both possible and nessesary to appease the labor movement. However, starting in the 70s, capitalism began to enter a crisis of profitability.

This crisis signaled the end of the social democratic compromise. Wages were cut, unions were busted, and industry was privatized. The Reagan and Thatcher revolution sought to restore profits for the capitalists by abandoning the workers.

But the conservatives were not the only ones at fault. The liberal and social democratic parties quickly followed suit. Third Way politics became dominant among these so-called social democratic parties, and cuts, austerity, and privatization quickly followed. And that is a dynamic which still exists today.

We are in an era of declining profit. This has spelled the slow decline, and eventual death, of social democracy. Combine that with the lack of a strong socialist movement (which many in this thread probably love) and the lot of the workers aren't looking so good.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Except for 6 none of what you want actually contradicts capitalist social democracies or what they (most likely) are heading towards.
I know how social democracy works, yes. And social democracy was invented by moderate socialists in the 20th century so it is no surprise we share a lot of the same goals. The average socdem platform is just a milder version of the average socialist platform.

The list I sketched out was exclusively for a US context, I will pretend it was a global program because I feel there's useful things to talk about here.
Personally I think is something that is guaranteed to be enacted in the next decade and in its primal form is actually already in place in most Western countries through strong social safety nets or welfare
The COVID payments every capitalist country is depending on to shore up their economy is a good example of "halfway" there. The only difference between me and them is I think they should continue these payments even after COVID is over.

Also already there, but mostly through mandatory taxation - which is fine, isn't it?
Not in the US, and its failing in the UK and I hear it is being gutted in everyone's favorite social democracy, Sweden but yes it generally works when it's not being privatized.

Not applicable, but can be converted to victims of colonialization or victims of ww2. Personally I don't think enough has been done to address this, but I also don't think it should part of the socialism vs capitalism discussion - it should matter regardless of that
I'm going to be honest with you, it is a bit laughable that a European would think they do not owe some sort of reparations to the global south. The list of "crimes" here is long and immense so I'll keep it short.
In 1838, France agreed to reduce the debt to 90 million francs to be paid over a period of 30 years to compensate former plantation owners who had lost their property. The modern equivalent of $21 billion was paid from Haiti to France.

I have no idea what that means tbh. Self-employment the become normative?
It means every company should be a worker co-op. A worker co-op is when every worker is a co-owner and gets democratic input in deciding the direction of the business. If the typical modern business is a top-down organization where the managers call the shots and the workers obey, then a co-op is a bottom-up organization where the workers elect managers and leaders (if so desired), set compensation, determine investment/expansion, etc. This is kind of the whole point of socialism, which is why it is critical to understand to know the difference between social democracy and socialism. Socialism isn't just "nice things for everyone", which leads to the erroneous conclusion that social democracy is a "better" socialism, it's "workplace democracy".

TL;DR:
Social democracy: Top-down businesses, employers own the equity, call the shots, employees obey
Socialism: Bottom-up businesses, workers are partners, share in equity, democratize directions

If you don't understand this distinction (and in fairness most people don't), you will have a hard time talking cogently about socialism. The question of "who owns?" was the original reason the social democrats split from the orthodox socialists back in the 20th century. Socdems said "bosses should own" and socialists said "workers should own" and that is how we ended up where we are today.

So maybe you just want social democracy in US?
It would be more accurate to say I want socialism but would not mind social democracy as an intervening step or a transitional state between neoliberalism and socialism.
People also think too abstractly about social democracy. As if it is as simply a switch that one can turn on at will. Think about it in this way. In capitalist society, the owners of capital form the ruling class. They control the economic forces of society, and through that control the political system. So how then, would you get social democracy from this?

The answer is that you need a specific combination of factors. The first is the need to appease the workers. If the workers have formed an organized force and are beginning to threaten your class rule, you need to give concessions in order to make them back down. In other words, the fear of socialism is essential in making the capitalists concede to a social democratic system.

The second element is a high rate of profit. The capitalists are only willing to accept a certain amount of wealth distribution. If profitably is high, they are more willing to throw some scraps our way. Only if they have to, of course. But when profitability declines, and the danger of socialism recedes, then both the factors leading to social democracy are dead.

And as a matter of fact, that event did happen. The post war era saw unprecedented levels of profit, so social democracy was seen as both possible and nessesary to appease the labor movement. However, starting in the 70s, capitalism began to enter a crisis of profitability.

This crisis signaled the end of the social democratic compromise. Wages were cut, unions were busted, and industry was privatized. The Reagan and Thatcher revolution sought to restore profits for the capitalists by abandoning the workers.

But the conservatives were not the only ones at fault. The liberal and social democratic parties quickly followed suit. Third Way politics became dominant among these so-called social democratic parties, and cuts, austerity, and privatization quickly followed. And that is a dynamic which still exists today.

We are in an era of declining profit. This has spelled the slow decline, and eventual death, of social democracy. Combine that with the lack of a strong socialist movement (which many in this thread probably love) and the lot of the workers aren't looking so good.
Excellent post. I agree with everything here, and did not bring up the falling rate of profit because it seemed too esoteric for a thread like this. However, I very much agree with the idea that social democracy was usually built by nations trying to appease their workers. That is, it is the fear of socialist revolution that forces capital to acquiesce to the demands of labor. Anyone who wants social democracy should support their country's socialists because when a socialist uprising is broken up via appeasement, it usually leaves behind social democracy. Social democracy was created by putting the fear of socialism into the hearts of capital, they did not do social democracy out of the goodness of their hearts.
 
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Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,042
You aren't going to get even half the countries in the world to be social democracies with high living standards. It's just not happening. This is by far a more utopic pipe dream than liberals accuse socialists of doing. The root character of capitalism is exploitation which on a global scale is an extractive force. Many countries have to have their resources extracted and labor exploited under threat of imperialist violence for other countries to have high living standards and commodities and "consumer choices" that people say they love about "first world" countries

This. What happens when rich countries can no longer exploit and steal from less well off countries?
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
You mentioned "burning thousands of acres of woods" which is something that is happening now and literally causes climate change. The reality we live in is that everything at hand is being burned regardless of how "corporativist" a country is. There are no participation trophies for only failing half as hard as the US at stopping the destruction of our environment.

There's a participation trophy when you are not one of the main contributors to climate doom, and STILL trying to solve it; instead of being the country that chose a populist real estate tycoon as a President to force a drop out of the Paris Agreement... and that only to later start flitring with socialism/communism because sounds 'interesting'.

I don't know if you have noticed, but every 'political adventure' the US has taken, has had an impact for the whole world. I really hope that Socialism isn't the next one.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
I'd argue that all these systems are natural (meaning they're all rooted in various aspects of human nature), so claiming that one is more "natural" than another is pointless.
I don't want to get into too much semantics of what is and isn't natural, but I think when people say "capitalism is natural" what they usually try to imply is that this is something that just happens if you don't "intervene" in the natural order of things.
I think this claim, outside being just false on the facts, also allows proponent of capitalism to pretend that this is not something that was create by people.
 

TickleMeElbow

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,668
I don't want to get into too much semantics of what is and isn't natural, but I think when people say "capitalism is natural" what they usually try to imply is that this is something that just happens if you don't "intervene" in the natural order of things.
I think this claim, outside being just false on the facts, also allows proponent of capitalism to pretend that this is not something that was create by people.

Yeah I agree that claiming "capitalism is the natural order of things" is dumb. I was just responding to your claim that "capitalism isn't natural". I basically think all economic/political/social systems are rooted in various aspects of human nature. Claiming one is more natural than the other, or that one is totally unnatural, makes no sense to me.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
There's a participation trophy when you are not one of the main contributors to climate doom,
I'm not sure what your definition of "main contributor" is
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I don't know if you have noticed, but every 'political adventure' the US has taken, has had an impact for the whole world. I really hope that Socialism isn't the next one.
You mean all those political adventures done specifically to spread capitalism across the planet? Those political adventures??? Yeah I agree they were pretty horrible.