So, why isn't the Nemesis system implemented more?

[Grue]

Sorry if this is an old trope, but I think it's still worth asking.

Shadow of Mordor is now five years old. The hype around the Nemesis system was a big deal pre-reviews, and seems to have been the thing people cottoned onto most about the game.

It's an interesting mechanic, and I was about to write "It gets you engaged in random NPCs..." and realised they are not even NPCs until you have something in common with the thug you just shot in the eye.

The Nemesis system is what makes a random thug an NPC.

So why hasn't this been duplicated yet? I remember hearing how we would "See this thing all the time" moving forward, and that seems to have been a big contributor to Shadow of Mordor's review status.

As a player and not a game designer, what's the reason? It seems engaging, it would get me invested in your world and lore a lot more, and it seems applicable across more than one genre.

Why haven't I seen it more over the last five years? (If it's been around and I've missed it, please correct me, Era!)

 

[Wrexis]

This would have been perfect for a Batman game (Arkham Legacy anyone?).
Imagine a generic minion that levels up and becomes as big a threat as Joker or Bane.

 

[DJ_Lae]

Assassin's Creed Odyssey implemented it - sort of. The mercenaries that hunt you down all have names and brief backstories and traits, but it's never really fleshed out. It's ultimately little more than a menu, and it's a shame as there's more they could have done with the concept.

 

[Deleted member 10726]

Warframe will be implementing it soon, though I don't think with a shaming mechanic. I think it's just killing them to take them out for good or sparing them so they can get stronger. Might have cheating death, but I am not sure.

 

[Linus815]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

Assassin's Creed Odyssey implemented it - sort of. The mercenaries that hunt you down all have names and brief backstories and traits, but it's never really fleshed out. It's ultimately little more than a menu, and it's a shame as there's more they could have done with the concept.

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The main reason why the nemesis system is good - enemies leveling up, evolving, remembering you, is all missing.

 

[Belthazar90]

Because it's a very specific mechanic from a specific game. Why would someone just borrow it instead of coming up with something else?

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?



The main reason why the nemesis system is good - enemies leveling up, evolving, remembering you, is all missing.

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And this

 

[Gush]

There was a league in Path of Exile last year or so that borrowed quite a few ideas from the nemesis system, not sure if those mechanics have been integrated into the standard game though.

 

[Grue]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

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Why do you have to die for enemies to remember you?

What if you have a short space of time to kill them or whatever, fail, then they get away... And come back to haunt you?

I'm not being snide here, I'm genuinely curious. If this is a design issue, then I'd like to know what it is.

 

[Santar]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?



The main reason why the nemesis system is good - enemies leveling up, evolving, remembering you, is all missing.

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Well, I mean they could just make you pass out instead of actually dying and everything would still work the same.
The main reason the nemesis system hasn't been used much is probably because it's hard to create a dynamic system that engrains itself to almost every aspect of the game.

 

[Mengy]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

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Yep. The nemesis system lends itself very well to Shadow of Mordor due to the game's death mechanics, but not a lot of other games could utilize something like this so well.

Plus, I have to wager its likely a lot of complicated AI routines to pull it off as well as SoM does. I doubt its an easy thing to code into a game.

 

[Lowrys]

It was superfluous in Mordor.

And in War, I almost immediately lost track of who was who. They all bled into one after an hour of play. It was too much tedious busywork.

 

[Fonst]

Not saying I am a pro gamer or the best but I never really died in Mordor so never really saw the hubbub about it.

 

[NoKisum]

Warner Bros doesn't have it copyrighted, do they?

 

[in4m8ion_man]

I fear a system/idea that specific would end up with gamers and journo's shaming the developers of any game that actually did use it, we always see the 'stealing ideas' insults being thrown at games that even look similar to others let alone when they have a similar mechanical structure. Sucks when a great idea gets buried in that way...

 

[in4m8ion_man]

Warner Bros doesn't have it copyrighted, do they?

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you cant copywrite and idea, the name maybe but certainly not the concept no

 

[in4m8ion_man]

Warframe will be implementing it soon, though I don't think with a shaming mechanic. I think it's just killing them to take them out for good or sparing them so they can get stronger. Might have cheating death, but I am not sure.

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I'm very excited for the Lich system in warframe, specifically because you only have 1 at a time so you can really feel like you have a rivalry going on.

 

[Strangelove_77]

I forgot that was a thing that existed in that game. It didn't impact the game in any way honestly, not to me anyways. It was a gimmick.

 

[Schlorgan]

I think the narrative justification of your character being able to die and come back is one of the main reasons why it worked so well in that game.

Very few games have that.

 

[Arkestry]

Honestly the evolution of this looks like it's going to be Watch Dogs Legion. It's taking the idea of giving NPCs personalities and characteristics and blowing it up into an entire city. I'm really hopeful that it'll have that same feeling of permanence and novelty that Mordor had.

 

[NoKisum]

you cant copywrite and idea, the name maybe but certainly not the concept no

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I remember reading years ago that Namco copyrighted the implementation of having mini games in loading screens. So I figured any game mechanics could be copyrighted if they really wanted to.

 

[DJ_Lae]

The main reason why the nemesis system is good - enemies leveling up, evolving, remembering you, is all missing.

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The game wouldn't allow a complete copy of the system but yeah, it would have been nice if enemies you 'killed' or ran away from remembered you.

I think the mercenary list is populated with preset characters to begin with and then they're all randomly generated to replace them. It's such a weird system - it doesn't really add anything - that it feels like they wanted to do more with it and ran out of time.

 

[Poltergust]

I remember reading years ago that Namco copyrighted the implementation of having mini games in loading screens. So I figured any game mechanics could be copyrighted if they really wanted to.

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Splatoon 1 had mini-games in loading screens.

 

[Villein]

hoping to see it in a Batman game, maybe even Harry Potter :)) (Quidditch, Dueling, etc.)

 

[NoKisum]

Splatoon 1 had mini-games in loading screens.

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Loading screens and lobbies are two different things.

 

[Grue]

Honestly the evolution of this looks like it's going to be Watch Dogs Legion. It's taking the idea of giving NPCs personalities and characteristics and blowing it up into an entire city. I'm really hopeful that it'll have that same feeling of permanence and novelty that Mordor had.

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Forgot about that.

It was my main reaction to that trailer, and was the thing I got excited about most. But why so long til now?

Shout out to all the "This would be perfect for Batman" comments, couldn't agree more. A natural mini-boss (or more) scenario.

 

[in4m8ion_man]

I remember reading years ago that Namco copyrighted the implementation of having mini games in loading screens. So I figured any game mechanics could be copyrighted if they really wanted to.

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so they had a patent on the tech created to do it at the time, loading a game to load a game basically. which even as things in the tech changed still allowed them to block that feature from going into games in full scale (hence having non 'games' still in the loading screens, like bouncing a ball or making a thing happen but not a game)
ideas cant be copywriten, not in broad like this would be needed to stop anyone from having a feature where enemy npc's react to you as a player. Simply to overreaching a thing.

 

[justiceiro]

From a narrative perspective, it make things real hard, since you have to imagine so many scenarios, and they all must be interesting. Few developers are up to the task.

 

[Deleted member 46948]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

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Plenty of games have unrealistic systems, regenerating health, carrying around 20 guns, "dying" and coming back could be handwaved as one of those. Take GTA games, you die, your respawn in front of a hospital. That's not the real reason.

 

[Bladelaw]

I always figured it could be used in a Saint's Row or Crackdown style of game. Getting punked by a random NPC baddie gives them a name and status in their gang and they could be manipulated into a position of power. It's a shame. I think there's plenty of room for it in open world games.

 

[Keldroc]

Because it's hard.

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?



The main reason why the nemesis system is good - enemies leveling up, evolving, remembering you, is all missing.

Click to shrink...

The Nemesis system began as an idea for an Assassin's Creed game. Mordor was made by ex-AC designers. You don't need to die to make it work, it's just an added element that fit that particular game.

 

[defaltoption]

Yea would've loved to see it more, its one of there best new mechanics of the generation

 

[Okabe]

Too bad it never works in shadow of war. Nobody ever came back from me killing them unlike mordor where some dude would show up with like a reattached torso. Its a damn shame.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

It's not that cool and inherently turns every villain encounter into an algorithm

Watch dogs legion could be cool but I kinda doubt it.

Would much rather have a preset list of targets

 

[I KILL PXLS]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

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This. I say it every time this gets brought up. Everyone says it would be perfect for a Batman game, but imagine a Batman game where random thugs are frequently getting the better of freaking Batman. And then for some reason they're not unmasking him or killing him when he's knocked out. It doesn't make sense and it doesn't fit the Batman power fantasy (even a Year 1 version). Some other IP could probably make it work but it has to be something where that scenario makes sense, OR the character is immortal like the protag of the Mordor games.

 

[platypotamus]

Because it's hard.

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True

The Nemesis system began as an idea for an Assassin's Creed game. Mordor was made by ex-AC designers.

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Not true

You don't need to die to make it work, it's just an added element that fit that particular game.

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True

 

[Ravelle]

Too bad it never works in shadow of war. Nobody ever came back from me killing them unlike mordor where some dude would show up with like a reattached torso. Its a damn shame.

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I had dudes come back multiple times half cyborg, more metal than orc every time but I can't recall if that was Shadow or War.

 

[FPX]

Some Xcom 2 mods have something similar (though more barebones by comparison). Called "mocX squad" I think

 

[Rodney McKay]

It doesn't have to be EXACTLY the same as in Mordor.

Imagine a game like Mass Effect where you might spare an enemy across some encounters and eventually they grow to have dialog choices with them as they become a part of the story (like the main baddy's main henchman).
Like Mass Effect Andromeda was FILLED with boring filler characters throughout the open world, but maybe if they'd made them evolve somehow based on your interactions with them, and show up on other planets.

Or a Dark Souls style game where the enemy steals your souls to become more powerful. You still get your souls back if you kill them, but every time you lose to them they get that much tougher.

I think Borderlands could work really well with Mordor's death system though. The enemy toy die to could get more powerful and have better loot drops when you kill them after a while.

 

[ArjanN]

Some Xcom 2 mods have something similar (though more barebones by comparison). Called "mocX squad" I think

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The regular X-com 2 expansion was definitely influenced by the Nemesis system even if it wasn't 1:1

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I never played either Mordor (or "Shadow" I guess) game and from what I've seen it seems like it's mostly an aesthetics thing.

That said, i don't get how people are saying it straight up doesn't work in other contexts though. With Batman, you never kill, in games you do kill they can just have the sibling of whoever you killed or members of the same group getting revenge

 

[FlintSpace]

I have been asking this for years also.

 

[FPX]

The regular X-com 2 expansion was definitely influenced by the Nemesis system even if it wasn't 1:1

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Oh that's right, the War of the Chosen! Don't know why I blanked on that one, it's way closer to the nemesis system and actually official

 

[I KILL PXLS]

That said, i don't get how people are saying it straight up doesn't work in other contexts though. With Batman, you never kill, in games you do kill they can just have the sibling of whoever you killed or members of the same group getting revenge

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It's not the part where you kill them and they come back that doesn't work for Batman. That part would totally work since he doesn't kill and they can escape (or go to Arkham and escape). It's the part where they kill you (or knock you out) and you come back that doesn't because A) it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't either kill you or unmask you and B) it doesn't make sense that Batman would get frequently knocked out by random street thugs (in canon of the game) often enough for the system to kick in and have an impact.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It's not the part where you kill them and they come back that doesn't work for Batman. That part would totally work since he doesn't kill and they can escape (or go to Arkham and escape). It's the part where they kill you (or knock you out) and you come back that doesn't because A) it doesn't make sense that they wouldn't either kill you or unmask you and B) it doesn't make sense that Batman would get frequently knocked out by random street thugs (in canon of the game) often enough for the system to kick in and have an impact.

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I don't see how that system requires the enemy to kill the player. It's a part of Shadow of Mordor, but that particular aspect doesn't have to be replicated in other games.

For Batman, the enemy can win through other means like escaping with a hostage/money/weapon/etc. and then return with some specific dialogue referencing the past encounter and some way to counter attacks (which the games already have).

 

[Slayven]

Espeically in open world games, makes shit more lively.

I remember one Orc went from a confident dandy to a raving lunatic literally, he was crazy as fuck through repeat interactions with me

 

[Deleted member 13798]

I'm definitely down with that showing up more often, but I think by default it's hard to implement because in its original context it was predicated on the player character being killed.

That's kind of hard to justify in games where the main character isn't resurrected every time they die by a cranky ghost that's been super glued to their spirit. But I guess there are other ways it can be done, I certainly wouldn't mind. It would actually be right at home in something like Assassin's Creed, especially lately. You can easily justify it with the Animus.

 

[Bansai]

because the main reaosn why it works in Shadow of Mordor/War is because everytime you die, you actually die. It's canon. That's not something many other games can actually emulate... and how else would it work?

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Now that I think about it, the perfect to implement it in would be the new Watch Dogs, where you build an army an each death is permanent, so the opposing force could also use some special characters in it instead of random enemy NPC number #125516 who got a lucky shot.

 

[Gilver]

Because its hard.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

Why go to the effort of coding for this when millions of gamers don't give a shit about it or AI in general.