Would you even notice these things if you didn't have Digital Foundry showing them to you? Be honest.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
So what are the facts with how some PS5 games are outperforming XSX?
- Thread starter Oracle
- Start date
We don't know. Anything is speculative at this point. dark1x's private DMs about tools shouldn't be used as a definitive source of truth as to why one console is outperforming the other at this point.
Personally, I assume there's a bit of higher level abstracting going on on the Xbox side of things due to cross-platform builds and smart delivery. This could likely be something that could improve over time with newer builds, or even potentially at a system level with firmware updates. The benefit of a unified build environment means easier cross-platform development and better backwards compatibility. The downside is less low-level control and optimizations can often be relegated to the firmware (we see this in the PC space with GPU driver updates). In essence, you lose a bit of the console "secret sauce".
Personally, I assume there's a bit of higher level abstracting going on on the Xbox side of things due to cross-platform builds and smart delivery. This could likely be something that could improve over time with newer builds, or even potentially at a system level with firmware updates. The benefit of a unified build environment means easier cross-platform development and better backwards compatibility. The downside is less low-level control and optimizations can often be relegated to the firmware (we see this in the PC space with GPU driver updates). In essence, you lose a bit of the console "secret sauce".
Uhhh, yes? The frequent tearing in AC is pretty darn noticeable.
Well it's infinitely better than judging them on paper specs alone, which is what we've had for several months. The proof is in the pudding as they say, even if we need to wait to see how the chips fall.
I think its because there is only limited time to optimise games, but now there are two Xbox's to optimise for, as opposed to one PS5, so of course PS5 is going to get more time dedicated to it. Im surprised that people expected Xbox to significantly outperform PS5, i remember reading on here how we would be seeing native 4K on SX.
Time will tell, but looking back at the last generations, the performance we see at launch is usually the case for the life of the consoles. Xbox always outperformed PS2, 360 outperformed PS3, PS4 outperformed One S, with the latest systems having barely a difference. This will be the case for the generation, slight differences in resolution and fps between the two systems. I don't buy the tools argument, the tech and knowledge for each system will grow.
Time will tell, but looking back at the last generations, the performance we see at launch is usually the case for the life of the consoles. Xbox always outperformed PS2, 360 outperformed PS3, PS4 outperformed One S, with the latest systems having barely a difference. This will be the case for the generation, slight differences in resolution and fps between the two systems. I don't buy the tools argument, the tech and knowledge for each system will grow.
Yea, way too early for anything definitive. Once we start seeing later patches and optimizations of launch titles, maybe by summer, we can start drawing conclusions, but by then focus may be on first party exclusives anyway.
It tears on both platforms. The thread is about "PS5 outperforming XSX" when in reality the differences are so minuscule that I genuinely don't believe anyone would know the differences without on-screen framerate counters attaching a scientific result to these comparisons.
We knew the PS4 was more powerful than the XB1 VCR tho. Things are still influx with these two new machines.
Mark Cerny is a wizard and I'm sure some things such as the better rasterization performance do play a role in closing the gap in paper specs a bit. But for now the idea that the Xbox tools are behind/not as familiar to devs seems more likely. Either way though, it's a really odd situation.
anyone who says they'd be able to tell the difference is kidding themselves.
I think the only reason it's noteworthy here is because the Xbox is more powerful (at least on paper), and many were looking for a discernible performance advantage, what they got instead was a undiscernible power disadvantage.
This is true (been playing on PS5), but from all the analysis done it looked to me like the Xbox version was tearing significantly more often because it doesn't hit the 60 FPS target in gameplay as consistently.
Far too early to say anything.
But like every generation, the real showcases will be the console exclusives.
But like every generation, the real showcases will be the console exclusives.
A simple 'fact' of life is that if you are an early adopter with stuff like consoles is you are buying a product basically blindly based on marketing and maybe a few quick reviews. How all this will play out will need 1-2 years to know for sure and then you will have evidence and facts.
Playstation tools will improve, but they can only get you up to the limit of the power of your hardware. Given the hardware differences, Microsoft would have to really drop the ball on their tools to not get to a point where they're able to outperform a PS5 with even really good tools by at least a small margin, assuming there isn't some other bottleneck in Series X design that hasn't been identified yet.
Some of it may also just be developers are assuming higher sales for the PS5 and putting most of their focus on that version, and porting that to Series X is more an afterthought. Better tools won't necessarily fix that, but the easier MS can make the work of porting your game to Xbox the better results you'll get even from devs who aren't prioritizing it. And again, the hardware advantage should be enough to get them to at least parity even in that situation.
The tools for the PS5 are probably better and easier to use at the moment. On top of that the PS5 is a single platform while devs have to code for two next-gen platforms on the Xbox side of things.
I wouldn't look at launch games as anything close to being definitive. The good news, is theyre very similar right now, and truthfully nobody would even notice a difference if it wasnt for DF. Either way, xbox Series X is more powerful on paper, and i would expect things to improve on the Series X as time goes on.
Rasterization is a tiny part of the pipeline. APIs and GPUs are looking to make gains where the bulk of rendering is at, which is with shaders. This is primarily what the customized geometry engine is for in the PS5 and what the mesh shaders and shading advantages of the XSX are for.
Last edited:
If last gen proved anything it was that Sony's developers can do amazing things with their hardware when they fully understand the architecture.
Raw power numbers aren't that important if the developers are working multi-platform, in which case, just go for a PC build and stop counting hairs among mostly similar console specs.
I'm sure XSX will do just fine though, but I expect Sony first party games to showcase the best visuals this generation as well.
Raw power numbers aren't that important if the developers are working multi-platform, in which case, just go for a PC build and stop counting hairs among mostly similar console specs.
I'm sure XSX will do just fine though, but I expect Sony first party games to showcase the best visuals this generation as well.
The more powerful console doesn't always automatically result in the games performing better. You can't get a better example than the 360 handily beating the PS3 in pretty much every multiplatform game, sometimes to the extent that the PS3 versions are basically knackered (see Skyrim).
From what i can gather Sony had the development tools for PS5 in the hands of developers sooner than Microsoft did. Also there is the whole unprecedented global pandemic thing meaning games are either being delayed right left and centre (see Cyberpunk et al) or if not ship with some pretty glaring bugs or missing optimisation because they weren't fixed in time for the deadline such as AC: Valhalla and Dirt 5.
As the tools mature and developers get to grips with the hardware more (and when this pandemic finally comes to an end) i expect the XSX to outperform the PS5 in everything but loading times. If it doesn't then there's something seriously weird going on.
From what i can gather Sony had the development tools for PS5 in the hands of developers sooner than Microsoft did. Also there is the whole unprecedented global pandemic thing meaning games are either being delayed right left and centre (see Cyberpunk et al) or if not ship with some pretty glaring bugs or missing optimisation because they weren't fixed in time for the deadline such as AC: Valhalla and Dirt 5.
As the tools mature and developers get to grips with the hardware more (and when this pandemic finally comes to an end) i expect the XSX to outperform the PS5 in everything but loading times. If it doesn't then there's something seriously weird going on.
Don't we only even have like 3 games to make comparisons from right now, and then it's like max a 2-3% difference, and if you really want to get into which system can give the best experience it's the one that supports vrr when there are frame drops...
I don't think anyone who bought an xsx is unhappy rn. Or a ps5.
Like looking at valhalla both systems are performing pretty closely to a 3080 pc rig. That's awesome.
I have valhalla on SX, I've been having a blast with it.
Series X tears frequently in AC:V, and PS5 tears infrequently. The difference is not minuscule. Even if it's a 10% performance gap, the difference between tearing and not tearing is a large one.
Windows Phone was maybe a little feature-bare at launch, but 7.5 fixed that pretty quickly. In either case, Windows Phone was never BAD. Early on, Windows Phone really didn't need apps in the same way that other mobile platforms did, but that didn't stop people from wanting them. Facebook and Twitter, for example, were built right into the People Hub (the contacts list), so a lot of people (myself included) spent 95+% of their time on the phone in the People Hub and only maybe downloading the occasional game. Unfortunately, services like Facebook and Twitter didn't want their services integrated into an OS to that degree. (I mean, Heaven forbid people be able to view all of a person's posts in reverse chronological order with any sort of predictability.) As such, Microsoft had to gradually rip such integration out of the OS and eventually tried to make Windows Phone more closely resemble and behave like Android with the move to Windows 10 Mobile. At that point, yeah, it was bad, but that was Windows Mobile again, not Windows Phone.
Microsoft certainly released some stinkers, but Windows Phone wasn't one of them. In terms of OS, I'd suggest Windows Me or maybe Kin. Ironically, though, I do think the development tools played a part in Windows Phone's demise, and I think development tools are the problem with Xbox Series X|S.
I watched the DF video and what you are saying does not seem reflective of their conclusions.
I threw my Series X out of the windows because im so dissapointed /s
We are what? 3 or 4 DF videos in the generation and Xbox is already doomed? Faster than expected!
Listen, 3rd party is really disappointing with PS5s SSDs, too. The fastest console on the market with a groundbreaking SSD.
For the record: I dont think it'll stay that way. PS5s SSD is incredible and there will be a time when even 3rd party devs will make to best use of it. But right now? Disappointing! So where is the concern for that?
Whilst I completely understand the thinking that a gamer wants third party games on their preferred console to perform best so they can experience them with their favoured UI & controller, but with this generation more than any other I don't think it matters as much. We all want technical improvements that's why we move on to a new console generation but in terms of power comparisons with the new-gen, the reality is both Series X and PS5 are in the same ballpark. Yes there will be differences that professional level analyses will highlight such as frame drops here or there, screen tearing etc. but in real terms, to the naked eye, the initial comparisons done reveal any differences to be minute. This means that when playing a third-party game your experience will not suffer unless you are upset that gamers on the other platform are 'winning'. Honestly I think a lot of the marketing from Microsoft's PR promoting the power angle advantage of the Series X gave many people the belief that its games would offer a remarkably different and improved experience - when perhaps they were overselling it.
I'm not a programmer but speculating for reasons why the most powerful console is not winning these initial comparisons.
1) The Xbox development tools need improvement to allow developers to utilise its speed advantage.
2) The PS5, whilst it has less teraflops than the Series X has a better integrated design that leads to other speed advantages that compensate.
3) (again speculating here) perhaps developers create a Series S version first then boost it (as has been described by Microsoft comparing what is done for PC games for different powered PCs). Perhaps during Covid-development during the busy pre-console launch this meant there was less time to optimise the Series X version afterwards.
Oracle, honestly, I say don't lose any sleep over it. Digital Foundry's John Linneman believes it's the tools and he has better technical insights than most of us and the early results are from a very small sample size. So with time it's probable that Series X will come out stronger but so what? If third-party differences are not noticeable to most people, and you get to play on your favourite console which also has your favourite first-party games then ultimately you come out a winner.
Nope. Opposite. PS5 seems to have better textures too in some comparisons. So overall I think the PS5 just seems better in almost all metrics. FPS, textures, res, detail.
And unless someone gives specifics, just saying 'tools' doesn't cut it.
No not really . We would buy based off specs and nobody would really care
Are developers still under NDA? I'd be interested in reading an actual comparison of the two consoles from those experienced with both platforms. Just genuinely curious about design philosophies and how they're playing out in the real world.
It could be different things for different developers as well. Or a mix of a variety of them.
Windows Phone was bad. Like, really bad. I had to do tech support for phones running that OS, and it was a labyrinthine mess of unintuitive menus and sub-menus to find what you were looking for. You needed to reset the APN for your cellular data settings? On iOS you'd just reset network settings and let the phone reboot, on Android you could reset the APN and reboot or we could push the settings out to your phone, but on Windows Phone you had to navigate a bunch of completely unintuitive sub menus, enter all the APN settings manually, and just pray it would work (and then you'd have to set up the MMS settings manually). By the time they shat out Windows Phone 8.1 it was already a dying OS, and by Windows 10 Mobile it was dead as a doornail. The app support was piss poor too because basically no one wanted those damn Nokia phones running Windows Phone. It was a trash mobile OS and deserves to rot forgotten, unloved and alone.
Yeah I don't know, but it be great to hear from 3rd party and 1st party devs on how it's like working on PS5 and XSX. A follow up with Mark Cerny would be very insightful, DF has interviewed with him in the past.
I don't think it's so much NDAs as not wanting to sour their relationships with Sony and MS.
Therea re no facts available though. There are at best some informed suppositions and at worst a whole lot of "tales from my ass" and assorted hot takes.
The informed suppositions are impacts of SDK ease of use and familiarity (PS5 seems to be consistently noted to be better here currently) combined with dev focus and time to develop (clearly some devs have been under pressure to get games finished for launch window which would compound issue with the SDK one) with everything impacted by developing during Covid.
It may be PS5 does have better overall architecture that delivers better consistency than X but think seems like speculation vs anything conclusive.
TBH given Covid alone and usual rush to make launch windows it was a given I'd say (and I mean no disrespect to devs with this) that the first wave of titles/upgrades would be a little flakier than normal.
Apart from a few odd bugs nothing seems too horrific to me from DF and of course quality will improve on both consoles going forward and SDK ease of use and dev familiarity should increase over time.
The informed suppositions are impacts of SDK ease of use and familiarity (PS5 seems to be consistently noted to be better here currently) combined with dev focus and time to develop (clearly some devs have been under pressure to get games finished for launch window which would compound issue with the SDK one) with everything impacted by developing during Covid.
It may be PS5 does have better overall architecture that delivers better consistency than X but think seems like speculation vs anything conclusive.
TBH given Covid alone and usual rush to make launch windows it was a given I'd say (and I mean no disrespect to devs with this) that the first wave of titles/upgrades would be a little flakier than normal.
Apart from a few odd bugs nothing seems too horrific to me from DF and of course quality will improve on both consoles going forward and SDK ease of use and dev familiarity should increase over time.
Yea we are not going to get completely honest comparrisons unless its anonymous and by its nature less reliable.
Developers are always under NDA in regards to consoles, so you won't get specific details about SDK situation anyway.
The fact is that these console were always much closer in power than a lot of people were making it out to be. And now with some possible dev tool issues on the Xbox side, the balance has tipped in favour of PS5. In time it will probably shift back and forth on a case by case basis, but it will never fully satisfy the fanboys who wanted utter dominance for their side.
The only facts we have is that there's been some polish issues on some of the Xbox games, but the underlying performance difference is practically nothing.
I don't know what anyone expects from these improving tools. Speculating on what that will result in is probably as useless as speculating on the comparison results based on like 10 lines of specs over the last 7 months.
It could go either way, but it seems like it's been taken as an article of faith that the Xbox is going to run games better based on a poverty of information.
I don't know what anyone expects from these improving tools. Speculating on what that will result in is probably as useless as speculating on the comparison results based on like 10 lines of specs over the last 7 months.
It could go either way, but it seems like it's been taken as an article of faith that the Xbox is going to run games better based on a poverty of information.
PS5 seems to currently have better dev tools.
It still cracks me up that the software company is behind on it's tools and the hardware company seems to again have problems leading purchasers to partake in the "Sony lottery" as to whether you will get a quiet model or not.
2020 continues to provide
It still cracks me up that the software company is behind on it's tools and the hardware company seems to again have problems leading purchasers to partake in the "Sony lottery" as to whether you will get a quiet model or not.
2020 continues to provide
I feel as though your experience with Windows Phone is somewhat twisted by your negative experience providing technical support for it, similar to what someone might experience with a Palm Pre without having used it very much. Most people don't need (nor should they have) easy access to their detailed network settings. Windows Phone did so many great things for phones. I wouldn't necessarily call it an influential OS, as I think enough time has passed that I doubt some of the improvements being made to phones can't really by attributed to Windows Phone at this point, but it did a lot of things right and better.
Windows Phone ran really well on low-spec hardware. Sure, that might've made it a somewhat unexciting platform, since there really wasn't much need for a flagship Windows Phone (though we did see some attempts at that), but it made the phones very affordable without it feeling as though you were making a trade-off (until Windows 10 Mobile came along, anyway).
Wireless charging was very common among Windows Phones and worked really well. Even most models that didn't have it out of the box could be "upgraded" with a new battery door from the manufacturer to enable wireless charging.
Windows Phone had arguably the best software keyboard you could get, something that for some reason didn't transfer over to Word Flow the way I expected it to.
Live Tiles made the concept of widgets less of an afterthought, with pretty much any app that could've used a widget in some form having it right off the bat. (I still struggle to bother integrating widgets into my iPhone's home screen at this point. There just aren't enough useful ones.)
Windows Phone had dark and light modes (with plenty of accent colors to choose from) early on, whereas many other platforms and services only more recently managed to implement both.
Windows Phone was designed to make on-screen content easy to reach, with the main UI being at the bottom of the screen or appearing as oversized elements toward the top of the screen to promote easy access. It felt like it was designed around touch, and it performed and responded well in that sense. Both Android and iOS regular have elements that're difficult to press precisely on built-in apps, as they rarely have the sort of padding that touch elements should have to facilitate good response.
While I'll agree that Windows Phone was playing catch-up in too many other regards, I do think it's a shame that Windows Phone isn't still around in some form. Frankly, while some Windows Phone fans would probably cry heresy at the thought, I honestly kind of wish Windows Phone had found new life in the feature phone market. Its UI was simple and high-contrast, making it really well-suited to people who weren't particularly tech-savvy, as well as with people who have poor vision.
All this speculation and reason pondering aside, with how Microsoft has marketed their system and how bullish they've been about it, it really isn't a good look tools or no tools. I personally don't really care but it sure ryles up the people on this forum lmao.
Both are software and hardware companies.
And as I understand it, Microsoft has been introducing a brand new dev enviroment with focus on pc and xbox development, and Sony is iterating on ps4s tools. So its no miracle if xbox is behind.
Correct, but systems thinking is an acquired skill. Most people just want to see if number A is greater than or less than number B.
They said XSX has full screen tears during gameplay, while PS5 only tears during cutscenes and then only at top of screen so its less noticeable. Now I think Ubisoft can fix this because the real issue is probably that the dynamic resolution isn't kicking in fast enough or aggressively enough to keep it from dropping so far. Anyone that's playing on XSX with a tv without VRR generally notices the tearing.