He dies like a hero fighting the Empire though. Unfortunately for some reason Filoni decided to make him have some sort of brain damage sequel from removing his control chip, so he's kinda crazy in Rebels
And the payoff...
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So wait, Palpatine DIDN'T order the creation of the clone army?
- Thread starter TableBeRound
- Start date
And the payoff...
He was a motherfuckin boss in TCW, too. THAT episode is one of my favorites. I'm glad Rex and Wolffe were the other 2 to survive post purge, Plo Koon's best boy deserved a good life, and Rex is fucking Rex.
edit: Also the whole arc with Fives is probably the most heartbreaking part of Star Wars
Sifo-Dyas had perfectly good intentions with the Clones that Palpatine/Dooku later twisted to their own ends following his death. Sadly sometimes the best intentions don't have the best outcomes.
Completely agree with these two posts. I can't comprehend the desire that poster has to actually want them to basically be more robots. One of the reasons The Clone Wars worked so well was because of the Clones themselves.
That is something that The Clone Wars excels at above all other Star Wars media, IMO. There is so much well written tragedy. Hell, even the fucker that people like to make fun of, Savage Opress, is tragic as hell.
Considering some of the B movies he's been in it was probably "I'd wear high heels and lipstick if they need me to. A paycheck's a paycheck."
Savage is a great character, the only thing dumb about him is his name... and unfortunately he's not the only one. Those years after ROTS saw Lucas really start to like dumb as hell names.
The best character/tragedy for me is Satine. Like holy hell should Obi-Wan have had a love interest in the actual prequels. It's so well done.
He did, just through several steps to obscure the fact he did.
Maybe it's because I've never held the Clone Wars cartoon in that high regard. It's fun, but much of the show is pretty disposable.
I just found the whole chip concept to be lazy, but they wrote themselves into a corner when they made the clones super likable.
It's a double edged sword yeah conceptually it's just boring mind control
But it allows the show to develop the clones as people so it's ultimately better for it imo
Part of the goal with The Clone Wars was to "Fix" the prequel's problems and find good solutions to all of Lucas' dead ends. That includes making sense of Order 66 and the Clones, but also making Anakin an actually likable and heroic character, really fleshing out Obi-Wan and Anakin's friendship (which the movies don't really adequately show), making Anakin's fall to the dark side more clear and tragic, fleshing out the Jedi Order's stupidity, arrogance, and incompetence to allow the entire purge to happen in the first place, deepening Obi-Wan's character, and many other things. To say nothing of the actual cool additions to the mythology that have nothing to do with salvaging the prequels, like Mortis, the Nightsisters, Cad Bane, Hondo, Mandalore, etc.
The entire show is definitely not disposable in any way, and I'd go as far as to argue it ultimately contains the best material in the entire franchise.
The Clones, ultimately, are made better by being likable real characters who we come to grow and like, who the Jedi come to grow and like. We were robbed of the finale (though we're finally getting it in a few months), but even without seeing the tragedy play out, that entire scenario is so inherently rich storytelling. It's just about the furthest thing from lazy.
You're allowed not to like it for whatever arbitrary reason, but I think dismissing it the way you are is the actual laziness.
This is all explained in Star Wars: Bounty Hunter for ps2/xbox/gc, duh.
Ok so basically the Clone Army stuff is fucking weird, sure. But creating 3 million clones on a planet is not actually THAT weird. Like a planet could have tens of billions of inhabitants in theory. 20th century Earth economies for subsections of our planet individually fielded millions of troops. Even without Clones, you could theoretically raise billions of soldiers in the republic without much fuss. Like there are thousands of inhabited planets! If the Republic had a volunteer army with good wages they could easily get billions of soldiers, inside of 1 year, all trained and ready for battle on an invidiual person basis. I have zero doubt Kamino could have raised a 3 million strong army based on mercenaries out of a Republic with hundreds of trillions of people and outer rim neutral territories instead of clones.
The logical questions for me are more like - who is building all these space ships for them? That's the real power in the war. In order to land any soldiers you need to be able to ferry them through space. If one side has total space supremacy the other is in major trouble. Theoretically it's all the biggest spaceship companies making them, at least based on my memories of the lore. Like Kamino was placing orders for all this stuff. So much plot emphasis was put on the clone army made of clones but really it's an equal or greater mystery as to how all their heaviest gear was made. That's arguablly a more fascinating paper trail to follow because it's like Kuat Drive Yards and shit like that cranking out huge quantities of equipment for this shadow army.
The logical questions for me are more like - who is building all these space ships for them? That's the real power in the war. In order to land any soldiers you need to be able to ferry them through space. If one side has total space supremacy the other is in major trouble. Theoretically it's all the biggest spaceship companies making them, at least based on my memories of the lore. Like Kamino was placing orders for all this stuff. So much plot emphasis was put on the clone army made of clones but really it's an equal or greater mystery as to how all their heaviest gear was made. That's arguablly a more fascinating paper trail to follow because it's like Kuat Drive Yards and shit like that cranking out huge quantities of equipment for this shadow army.
This is a good point and one of those things I think TCW actually didn't explain. I could somewhat buy the Republic already had a few Star Destroyers for its use (and whatever ships the initial batch at the end of AOTC used), but they didn't even give that explanation. And it's a total mystery as to how they had as many ships, tanks, etc as they did.
I bet palpatine ordered dooku to attack the industrial engineering clan just to offer them the help of the republic. Or he planted the thought in their minds. Typical Sheev!
I'm pretty sure he's literally done exactly that at least once? But I don't have the time to check that right now.
For the sheer size and scale of the Republic army in the Clone Wars... I feel like it would take quite a why. Especially since we know in the Star Wars universe there are these massive shipyards that employ a ton of people and they -don't- just 3D print them or something.
Can anyone give me an explanation for why anyone wanted an army of human clones rather than... just killer robots or sith-minded people or something?
Did the clones in the forgettable prequels display free will? Did they have private lives? How did the movie just shrug off the moral implications of cloning?
When Luke said "you fought in the clone wars?" my imagination went wild.
I didn't imagine the Jedi commanding clones in pre-imperial armour.....
Did the clones in the forgettable prequels display free will? Did they have private lives? How did the movie just shrug off the moral implications of cloning?
When Luke said "you fought in the clone wars?" my imagination went wild.
I didn't imagine the Jedi commanding clones in pre-imperial armour.....
They did have free will until the chip implanted into them kicked in. Some clones deserted the army. One raised a family (though I think the children were step-children)
Yeah probably. But at the same time they might have had a several stocked up over the years. I mean think about how much the USA spends on the. Military... Now multiply that by.. A fuck ton.
Either way it is weird to think about
Yeah probably. But at the same time they might have had a several stocked up over the years. I mean think about how much the USA spends on the. Military... Now multiply that by.. A fuck ton.
Either way it is weird to think about
Yes. Watch The Clone Wars. The movies didn't explain shit about this, but that series entirely redeems the storylines attempted in the Prequels.
As far as why humans over droids, there's no exact answer, but... I would guess because the badguys were using droids and, frankly, a sentient brain was seen as superior to the fairly mindless droid armies. This of course goes back to the age old argument of man vs machine, a ghost in the shell, the soul, etc. The bottom line is a human just makes decisions different than a robot and that is an asset in all situations.
I'm not sure if there's any in-universe explanation. Droids in Star Wars are definitely capable of human-like intelligence. The mass scale production battle droids are real fucken dumb but they're about the only stupid droids we see in the whole Star Wars franchise, usually they're super smart and helpful and good at what they do.
Best not to tug too hard at this thread, though. You'll never stop having questions. A society with human+ intelligence robots would not look anything like Star Wars and droids would be perfect shots with their weapons and would have wiped the fucken floor with the Clones using their autoaim hax.
The thing about droids is that they're all single-purpose. From the dumb battle droids to astromechs to Threepio, each droid only excels at its particular, preprogrammed role.
The clones, meanwhile, aren't just rando enlistees like stormtroopers but are generic copies of one of the most notorious and deadly bounty hunters of their time. They should be far more versatile and cost-effective.
The clones, meanwhile, aren't just rando enlistees like stormtroopers but are generic copies of one of the most notorious and deadly bounty hunters of their time. They should be far more versatile and cost-effective.
Truth. I would also never be the idiot to challenge his Tolkein knowledge. He was a gosh dark Tolkein encyclopedia.
I always assumed they got the clone army and the clones are highly skilled and effective enough and they needed an army quick. Helps they were clones of a legendary and were trained by top notch soldiers
So when they got an army dropped into their lap they just ran with it.
We seen that the droids are really fucking dumb and they rely on numbers to win fights only elite droids like the commandos can actually fight them one on one
I just listened to a pre-fall Dooku / Sifo-Dias centric audiobook, and man is it goofy when his friends just call him "Dooku" constantly
Battle droids are really dumb.
R2D2 is a genius. C3P0 is an order of magnitude beyond any AI from Earth in capabilities, despite being clumsy.
Getting a machine to aim and fire a weapon, in real life, is a very easy task once you've identified a target. With superhuman accuracy. Guided munitions just make that much easier. In Star Wars, it's presented as the other way around - the battle droids are really slow and inaccurate at aiming their guns but can identify targets and perform basic reasoning to a sophisticated degree by RL standards. Star Wars tech would easily allow much, much superior designs, like rapid fire blasters that float through the air, or small tracked vehicles with powerful guns that mow down enemies by the dozen. The battle tactics that the Clones have on Geonosis is really dumb by RL standards, of course, so they'd fall easy prey to this kind of thing.
Even as presented in universe, Droidekas were beast mode and in theory would have been able to kill very large numbers of clones in a straight up fight. But mano-a-mano battling is really not how the war would be decided, and the choice of Clones vs Droids vs Recruits really is secondary to whether or not the faction can control Space. But that's the side of things that the media shows us the least of.
(Yes I'm aware this is all fictional nonsense and the real reason for all this is because X is Cool or because George didn't think Y through very well and the whole story was just to serve narrative ends, not to be a realistic siluation of a specific tech level)
This has already been answered a bit but the purpose of the Clone Wars was not only to wipe out the Jedi but to also prepare the Republic for a transition to an Empire.
The Clone Wars goes into how Palpatine continues to receive 'emergency' powers, how well liked on a personal level he is compared to an average senator, how he has paid off a substantial amount of the senate, how he has centralised the state (the banks are now centrally owned), he takes more direct control of Kamino, etc.
The war is long and drains the Republic, Palpatines 'answer' is that Republic must transition to an Empire to survive. The average person would probably not mind this as they really like Palpatine and trust him and pretty much no one else.
I decided to rewatch the scene where Obi-wan goes to the planet. It's hilarious how stupid the Kamino aliens are. Even though Obi-wan is giving clear signs that he has no idea what the fuck is going on and asking really basic questions, they have zero suspicions and just explain away everything to what amounts to a random Jedi that just showed up out of nowhere.
Their species is very gullible and can't pick up on human body language you speciest. And they just really really like cloning and were eager to see their troops in action. It's all explained in more detail if you subscribe to my patreon where I'll also prove how Dexter Jettster was in league with Sheev to lead Obi Wan to Kamino.
It is so good! Watching it with my son and it is si much fun to watch.
Hey, this thread really makes me want to watch the Clone Wars. Maybe I'll buy the blu--
Ah, maybe I'll just read a wiki.
Ah, maybe I'll just read a wiki.
Apparently if I just go there and say my company is totally going to pay for it for sure they don't secure a contract or call my bosses to make sure I'm legit or require proof that I'm actually representing the company or seek confirmation from my boss
Or any proof
Just go and say my bosses are going to pay for it no worries
And Dooku was very strong force and saber user.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the order for the clones happene right after Palpatine became Chancellor?
And keep in mind this is, at this point, a ten year investment. It's not like this was a hasty decision they just went with. For ten years they've genetically altered and physically raised, fed and trained 200,000 clones with millions more in the works.
In all that time, not only did no word get out that a Clone army was being raised for the jedi order, they also apparently never saw any payment for this either.
The sheer scale of the errors required for the plot to work is staggering.
Actually apparently based on a clone wars arc I completely forgot about that he was able to secure a loan from a galactic bank guild and the republic was going to go broke because they called on it before Palpatine took care of it
It's still Sifo securing the loan for an entire government that had no idea but at least the kaminoans got payed for raising a galactic army
As I said before, I don't feel this matters that much. It is an ad-hoc fix that was invented long after the plot device was written. It's not like obiwan asked them for financial records which would be a major step in figuring out how this screw-up happened.
We can commend the Clone wars team all we want for fixing lucas' mess to the extent they did, but that doesn't mean the movies plot point makes any more sense.
It's clearly a mess created by Lucas. TCW tried to fix and explain this mess, it's still messy but at least TCW did plug up lot of the holes even if some of it is vague and not fully figured out still.
But same can be said of the ST and how the First Order comes to be and all they build up. Even with some of the expanded content with explanations, it's still stretching things heavily.
But same can be said of the ST and how the First Order comes to be and all they build up. Even with some of the expanded content with explanations, it's still stretching things heavily.
As one critic put it: "the prequels only make sense if each character demonstrates cascading levels of stupidity......and Anakin Skywalker sits on-top of that particular tree"
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What actually happened to the massive clone armies after the Clone Wars?
