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So wait, Palpatine DIDN'T order the creation of the clone army?
- Thread starter TableBeRound
- Start date
I remember the first time I saw AotC, I was so sure Dooku was going to turn out to be a good guy, a secret double agent who really never stopped being a Jedi and had infiltrated Palpatine/Sidious to bring him down, and that Anakin was going to fuck all of that up, which was going to be a huge component of his downfall.
OP
OP
So Sifo-Dyas told the Cloners that the Jedi would pay even though at that point the others were categorically against this?
Palpatine would have had to pay for all of it out of his own pocket to keep it a secret for 10 years though.
It seems like a retcon but it allows for them to keep the tragedy of 66 and at the same allow the clones to actually get character development and unique personalities and grow close to the jedi
I remember in old eu the clones always felt guilty because they knew they would have to betray them but it doesn't really work in the clone wars show because the clones have independent thought and were willing to break rules and disobey to get the job done
The Republic was getting broke trying to fund the army too
I know it's because they had a billion other expense but they were fighting a war over the entire galaxy
Where the fuck does a space monk get the money for that
Just rewatched AotC recently with the kids with our slow watch toward RoS, and something came back to mind that I always wondered:
Why do the Council (and the Republic) place their faith on a clone army created under super shady circumstances, when it is even made plainly obvious (via Obi Wan following him) that the main template for said army (Jango Fett) is working for count Dooku and the Separatists -at the same time-.
That never made sense to me, and I was just reminded of it. Just couldn't make it work in my mind, and I tried.
Did I miss something?
Why do the Council (and the Republic) place their faith on a clone army created under super shady circumstances, when it is even made plainly obvious (via Obi Wan following him) that the main template for said army (Jango Fett) is working for count Dooku and the Separatists -at the same time-.
That never made sense to me, and I was just reminded of it. Just couldn't make it work in my mind, and I tried.
Did I miss something?
In the Darth Plagues novel it's shown that Plagues was the one who planted the idea of raising a clone army into Dias's head (with Palpatine being the one who planted it in Plagues's head) and provided him with the initial funds to start it.
I think several episodes of Clone Wars covered this. Someone with more knowledge can correct me. IIRC whoever commissioned the clones secured a loan from the "Banking clan," (the show implied all large business deals and credit transfers were controlled by a single family) and during the war the clan threatened to call in the loan during a bad time for the Republic. Long story short Separatists, under Dooku and unofficially Palpatine/Sidious, get involved and try to take control of the clan only for Chancellor Palpatine to offer the clan protection if the loan was considered paid. They agreed. So essentially not only did Palpatine get the army for free, he also assumed control of most of the money in the galaxy.
How are the warrior monk peacekeepers swimming in dough, though? It's not like they receive a tithe from people. You don't see people going to Jedi church. I assume their budget comes directly from the Republic senate. There's having funds and then there's ordering an army (complete with machinery and starships) that can fight a galactic scale war.
Lee has been named worse, here he is as Fu Manchu
Here's Lee in 1977 when the first Star Wars came out
The man is accustomed to FAR worse than Lucas's silliness
I can get behind this retcon even if it's ludicrous to think that a single guild controls the wealth of the entire galaxy.
I want nothing
I want nothing
I want no clones
Tell the Kaminoans to do the right thing
This is the final word from the Emperor of the Empire
It's like a random ass general ordering
At least that's something
The Kaminoans would have no idea that Sifo Dyas, a Jedi Master who sits on the council, was working on his own and no reason to assume his request was against the wishes of the council.
Well Palpatine quickly assumed control over the project and began funding it, you wouldn't just pay for the entire thing upfront.
Lee has been named worse, here he is as Fu Manchu
Here's Lee in 1977 when the first Star Wars came out
The man is accustomed to FAR worse than Lucas's silliness
His expression in the second image says it all.
The show all but said the clan was a "legal" criminal enterprise.
OP
OP
Wait, according to the old canon Plagueis was still alive around the time of TPM? Then how come Palpatine told Anakin about the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise like it was a "thing" that people would know about?
To me it seems like the Kaminoans are bad at business then.
Also, wouldn't you have to pay in advance for something on that kind of scale?
This is why Kaminoans barely got work because they suck at the business thing
If I'm being charitable, it's because Palpatine knew it was a story only he knew, so he could frame it as a "secret ancient legend".
If I'm being accurate, it's because George Lucas isn't a very good writer.
I mean it was obvious Palpatine was bullshitting even then, and even Anakin knew. He was the apprentice which stands to reason that Plagueis didn't actually die all that long go.
Also, why was this random bounty hunter chosen as the template for the Republic's new army in the first place?
Auralnauts is by far the best way to experience the prequels. Their version of Attack of the Clones is A+ and includes (a shorter version of) this amazing sequence:
Who know really, obviously it's because a certain character was popular, but maybe he was a good specimen. Maybe because jango was considered the best mercenary in the galaxy.
I wonder how big the down payment was for that order, is there a Wookieepedia entry for that?
What am I saying, there is probably a whole episode about the cheque bouncing /trying to make money from selling midichlorians shenanigans in the Clone Wars show.
OP
OP
Yeah, as I recall the Jedi Council laughed him out the building when he suggested using an army to combat the threat he foresaw and just did it in secret instead.
Which really just shows you how stupid the Council was because not only did they think he'd just drop it because they told him to, but they also ignored a vision from the guy whose visions literally always came true.
I really disliked that aspect introduced into the clone wars cartoon. I mean it makes sense in terms of the show (they want the clones to remain likable) but not in the context of ROTS.
There's a lot of concepts introduced in the Clone Wars show that actually hinder the ideas of the PT trilogy a bit imo.
Sifo-Dyas was Dooku's old friend from their padawan days. Sifo gained a reputation as a mystic, but possibly a nutcase, because of his constantly recurring apocalyptic visions. He eventually "got better" and made his way to the Council. However, the visions started returning again prior to TPM and he was dismissed from the Council due to his "delusions" about an upcoming war.
Dooku had already left the Order for decades due to issues with his family and home world, and his general conflicts with Jedi teachings, and had fallen under Palpatine's sway as a back-up apprentice. When the time came, he re-befriended the disgraced Sifo and convinced him to create the clone army, then had him assassinated by pirates.
Sources: TCW and Dooku: Jedi Lost.
Dooku had already left the Order for decades due to issues with his family and home world, and his general conflicts with Jedi teachings, and had fallen under Palpatine's sway as a back-up apprentice. When the time came, he re-befriended the disgraced Sifo and convinced him to create the clone army, then had him assassinated by pirates.
Sources: TCW and Dooku: Jedi Lost.
I did not know that at all. I also expected more of a payoff for setting up a plot line that appeared to start during the first movie. "It was I who allowed the Jedi to have a army. It was according to my doing"
I think I need to watch Clone Wars.
He was a strong and capable warrior with no scruples who wouldn't blow the lid on the whole thing
I'm pretry sure Palpatine is lying to Anakin in that scene...
Just because he didn't literally personally do it doesn't mean he didn't really do it. That's like the Trump defense basically.
Thats correct, in Fallen Order its pretty much told straight up that the clones actually went haywire and were never supposed to be "bad"
He looks so sad.Here's Lee in 1977 when the first Star Wars came out
From the second I saw this on the big screen I thought the same thing. "Here is an army obi-wan just found, some jedi are in trouble on Geonosis.....alright, what the heck. Lets grab these clones and go start a war."
In the old EU there was a minis series called, Jango Fett: Open Seasons and it showed of his back ground. A famous mercenary who killed a bunch of Jedi with his bare hands.
Syfo-Diaz technically placed the order, but was killed before it could be realized. Tyrannus (Dooku) and Palpatine took advantage of the situation.
To my knowledge anyway.
To my knowledge anyway.
A big enough army to wage a galaxy wide war that helps create the Empire and subjugate all systems under new Imperial leadership. And the Jedi were clueless to it, despite one of the members creating it.
Why is no one watching those Kaminoans?
Why did Dooku have two titles and his second title is completely pointless. The whole Darth Tyrannus shit is waste of breath being uttered in a sentence as it amounts to nothing. When Christopher Lee pops up at end of AoTC they even greet him as Count Dooku not even Darth Tyrannus.
so what was the point
so what was the point
Well they couldn't watch a place they didn't know existed, Obi Wan spent a whole movie trying to find the place cause it was deleted from the archives. Sifo Dyas hid what he was doing with Kamino from the jedi cause he knew they would object, they already kicked him off the council cause he wouldn't shut up about his visions of war and armies.