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So uh...How will the new Shaman King anime handle...*sigh* Chocolove McDonell?

Fj0823

Fj0823

Legendary Duelist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,657
Costa Rica
Look I loved Shaman King as a kid growing up in latin america. The extremely faithful dub and the amazing cover of the Opening theme immadiately pulled me in as a kid. It was so fucking creepy and alluring, the characters were extremely likeable and the story had all sorts of interesting twists and turns...



But this character...This fucking design...I present you, Chocolove McDonell
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Not only is the design super racist by today's standard, it was super racist back in the 2000´s. his name is fucking CHOCOLOVE.

And this is a mayor character and one of the strongest members of the main character team. So you can't just remove him from the recently anounced remake that promises to adapt the full manga.



How do you approach a redesign when there's nothing salvageable there? Are they stupid enough to not even try to redesign him?
 
Vareon

Vareon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,842
Isn't the entire series full of stereotypes? I'm surprised someone even wants to revisit this property in 2020. But considering they're still doing it, I have little faith they're going to change Chocolove.
 
Pop-O-Matic

Pop-O-Matic

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,895
Knowing how Japanese media has and still does handle issues regarding black characters, he'll probably be left unaltered. The sad reality is that they just don't have the level of awareness or understanding about these topics that people in the west do.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,021
I didn't watch the series myself, but if memory serves, he's also a former gang leader. I imagine he's a hard one to fix.
 
Sheentak

Sheentak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,288
Maybe updated charecter design? I don't think you can do much for his name or back story but hopefully they do something
 
RRW

RRW

Member
Oct 26, 2017
999
the most I expect from them is change the lips colour and probably the name. Basically what happened in English manga released
 
lorddarkflare

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
I remember the English Dub of the anime did some heavy work on him backstory-wise. They also changed his name I think.

And his character design was touched up (?)

It have been a while.
 
L Thammy

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,021
lorddarkflare said:
It's Japan. They are going to leave him untouched .
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Honestly, this isn't a great take either. There are anime, even famous ones, even older ones, that have made efforts to fix things. Take Cyborg 008:

tumblr_o10fvawjvc1uiid9khj.jpg


0dkxz.jpg


This is the same guy. Believe it or not, Japan and Japanese people are entirely capable of realizing that they fucked up and making an effort to change.
 
lorddarkflare

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
L Thammy said:
Honestly, this isn't a great take either. There are anime, even famous ones, even older ones, that have made efforts to fix things. Take Cyborg 008:

This is the same guy. Believe it or not, Japan and Japanese people are entirely capable of realizing that they fucked up and making an effort to change.
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Oh, they definitely should 100% change him.

But unlike in the west where the change would be guaranteed, I think this is a tossup.

As the above Darkshine image reminds us, the pressures that would actively force them to change don't exist to nearly to the same degree. It is up to the production, and how global they intend to take the franchise and how much pushback they get from various stakeholders.
 
Harry Potter Obama

Harry Potter Obama

Member
Feb 13, 2018
3,842
Japan
Yeah, I wonder about it, especially now that the BLM protests have become well known in Japan. I imagine they'll keep the name, but maybe change the lips like in America. If they take them out completely they'll definitely have to take out the joke where Ryu instinctively believes he's good because he looks like his gang member (who was Japanese but has the same lips).

It's been about a decade since I read Shaman King, but I remember liking Chocolove/Joco as a character. His backstory of being part of a gang in NY was pretty bad, but played into his character arc, and I don't recall him having any other stereotypical personality traits.
Vareon said:
Isn't the entire series full of stereotypes? I'm surprised someone even wants to revisit this property in 2020. But considering they're still doing it, I have little faith they're going to change Chocolove.
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It is filled with exaggerated versions of international cultures (G Gundam style), religions, and mythology including Japanese. But those are different from this situation.
Those stereotypes aren't really the same kind of thing as Chocolove because they're not inherently racist like blackface. You've got a Chinese girl with a Jiang-Shi version of Bruce Lee, a mariachi who uses the souls of his band mates and Dia De Los Muertos-style skulls, an American football player who channels his team, a British boy who has an attack where he drops Big Ben on his opponents... That stuff is ridiculous but not offensive. Chocolove on the other hand is a racial stereotype.
 
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Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Ooof, even on the scale of racist caricatures in anime this one is pretty bad. They should definitely change this character, does Shaman King have a decent amount of popularity in the west? Usually series with a western audience in mind tend to do better when representing a more diverse cast, especially for remakes/reboots.
 
DragonSJG

DragonSJG

Banned
Mar 4, 2019
14,341
GayAnimeDad said:
Yeah, I wonder about it, especially now that the BLM protests have become well known in Japan. I imagine they'll keep the name, but maybe change the lips like in America. If they take them out completely they'll definitely have to take out the joke where Ryu instinctively believes he's good because he looks like his gang member (who was Japanese but has the same lips).

It's been about a decade since I read Shaman King, but I remember liking Chocolove/Joco as a character. His backstory of being part of a gang in NY was pretty bad, but played into his character arc, and I don't recall him having any other stereotypical personality traits.

It's filled with exaggerated versions of international cultures (G Gundam style), religions, and mythology including Japanese. Those stereotypes aren't really the same kind of thing as Chocolove because they're not inherently racist like blackface. You've got a Chinese girl with a Jiang-Shi version of Bruce Lee, a mariachi who uses the souls of his band mates and Dia De Los Muertos-style skulls, an American football player who channels his team, a British boy who has an attack where he drops Big Ben on his opponents... That stuff is ridiculous but not offensive.
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But those characters aren't depicted with something like blackface, a thing used to dehumanize black people
 
Acquila

Acquila

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,162
I agree that the exaggerated lips need to go, even for a series chock full of caricatures/stereotypes.

What is wrong with his name though? Choco = black? Does that make "Black Panther" racist?
 
Valkerion

Valkerion

Member
Oct 29, 2017
7,234
With no internal pressure to change or even realize these things are an issue domestically as the demographics change and more half-Japanese have to confront these images, AND the international complaints almost always being in languages other than Japanese in a country that has some extremely low levels of foreign language acquisition, the road is as long as it ever was.

Thankfully there are some artists and studios that don't participate in this nonsense but it definitely sucks that the industry just can't seem to escape it nor hire a few foreigners to raise their hand and say "hey that's not gonna work." Some other big industries here in Japan have "foreign relation consultants" for this kind of stuff, hopefully anime/manga will too someday. Or at least more of them.
 
lorddarkflare

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,254
Sketch said:
JFC at this poster defending it "because black people actually have those features". And people arguing with him being downvoted.
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The sheer lack of dark hair and visible epicanthic folds on ostensibly Japanese characters across all of anime should have clued this poster in that there was something more at play here.

Lord of Ostia said:
That makes it more likely they will change things I think. They probably have plans for a western audience/merch/etc. with this reboot.
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One would hope. But then, several other modern anime adapted from not even all that old source serve as refutation of that hope.
 
Mauricio_Magus

Mauricio_Magus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,015
I don't expect them to change anything about Chocolove tbh. From what I remember even story wise he's a mess of a character.

I hope they prove me wrong.
 
MoonToon

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
Oof, Imma assume they're going to update his design.
I've noticed more and more Japanese anime/ manga turning away from these kinda racist ass caricatures.
 
RRW

RRW

Member
Oct 26, 2017
999
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Racism
Fj0823 said:
That's like calling your one Black Character "Chocolate Thunder"
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I still don't see the problem with this. Anime has a silly name here and there. is there a bad connection between chocolate and black people?

I google Chocolate Thunder. all I get is Darryl Dawkins
 
Acquila

Acquila

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,162
Fj0823 said:
That's like calling your one Black Character "Chocolate Thunder"
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Is there a racist stereotype with black people and eating chocolates (like with watermelons and chicken)?

Would any name with a dark color in it be as racist for a black character? (Completely made up) names like Night Hunter, Dark Saviour, Tuxedo Supreme, Coffee Man, Caviar Cavalier, etc?
 
roflwaffles

roflwaffles

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,138
I'm gonna be honest guys, I never made the connection that Choco was referring to chocolate. For some reason 13 year old me thought it was a reference to chocobos lol.

but yeah that design gotta change
 
Soran

Soran

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
697
Offensive characters from Tezuka and other older mangas were changed in adaptations even before Shaman King existed, is not impossible.
 
Sanka

Sanka

Banned
Feb 17, 2019
5,778
I pointed that out in the black culture thread. So I will just post it here again.

Sanka said:
The Shaman King manga is getting a new anime reboot in 2021.
I haven't watched the original anime but I've read the manga not too long ago and I actually liked it. Some nice concepts of love, respect and understanding.

But oh boy Chocolove, the black main character of the story. What was the author thinking? He definitely did not extend that kind of respect to black folks. I really hope they redesign him and also change his backstory, because he is a racist african american charicature if I've ever seen one.

Not to mention all the native american stereotypes and appropriation. What a messy story.

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Yukari

Yukari

Member
Mar 28, 2018
11,706
Thailand
It depends on The Author that he wants to change or not.

Judge from an exhibition last year, I don't think so.

7M34qOZ.jpg
 
Green Mario

Green Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
Any black posters in here? I want to know which is more offensive to you, if you're offended at all - the character's design or name.
 
sredgrin

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
I don't know why anyone even bothers with shit like this. Hadn't heard of this before, but pretty much nothing is worth putting up with that sort of racist bullshit, especially a new product.
 
PhoenixAKG

PhoenixAKG

Member
Aug 14, 2019
7,812
Sketch said:
JFC at this poster defending it "because black people actually have those features". And people arguing with him being downvoted.
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That was me trying to argue with this idiot. His answers along with other just pissed me off to no end. One jackass tried to argue this even:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com

You can't make this shit up.

Green Mario said:
Any black posters in here? I want to know which is more offensive to you, if you're offended at all - the character's design or name.
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Both are equally offensive TBH.
 
Hydra_BE

Hydra_BE

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
913
You know the irony of the situation? The mangaka did promotional artwork for the Japanese release of Black KKKlansman, and it's nothing at all what some may suspect:

black1.jpg


So, while I think the character Chocolove conceptually is trash, I hope Takei has it in him to reflect and use this opportunity to at least touch the character visually.
 
Green Mario

Green Mario

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,319
DragonSJG said:
Both
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PhoenixAKG said:
That was me trying to argue with this idiot. His answers along with other just pissed me off to no end. One jackass tried to argue this even:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com

You can't make this shit up.



Both are equally offensive TBH.
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Yeah, I dunno why I thought one might be more offensive than the other, honestly.
But people will defend it to the death just like they do loli shit because "Japanese culture is different" or whatever.
 
MoonToon

MoonToon

Banned
Nov 9, 2018
2,029
Green Mario said:
Any black posters in here? I want to know which is more offensive to you, if you're offended at all - the character's design or name.
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The design.
The name can be changed up in dubs if they want, wouldn't be the first time a dub changes the name. If changed I prob wouldn't notice as I prefer dubs.

This caricature is a far cry from how far anime has come for the most part. Even if they want to play up national background stuff like G Gundam did they don't have to make a caricature to play on that.
 
AoM

AoM

Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,293
lorddarkflare said:
I really liked her design from the recent Anime. I did not realize that it was not the original.

Yikes.
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Nothing like the top '99 in the manga, but the bottom is 1:1 with a panel:
lOkqZ1y.png

Another panel:
mYU0ZdL.png

Can definitely see why many would prefer the 2011 change, but I don't think it's like the Shaman King issue at all.

And to stay on topic, the same Japanese VA actually voiced both characters.
 
Bremsstrahlung

Bremsstrahlung

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,367
Viz erased his lips and changed his name to Joco for the English localization of the manga. That's probably the absolute least you can do.
 
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