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So those Goblins in Harry Potter are antisemitic right?
- Thread starter Gwenpoolshark
- Start date
because jk rowling has historically had fucking awful issues depicting people of asian descent and it should be called out? cho chang is not a real name. they're not even two names that belong in the same cultural group. it's a grab bag of random asian sounds jk rowling put together and decided sounded right. i think asian folks have a right to be upset that the closest thing we ever got to representation was that. i don't really appreciate it being insinuated that these aren't 'real' problems and that jk rowling not ever realizing that this was a problem somehow exonerates her.
this is also putting aside how badly the patils were treated in the series. and that later jk rowling very ingeniously retroactively decided voldemort's fucking pet was a korean woman all along and how horrifically that scans.
Did you always feel this way or was this an epiphany you had today that led you to make the thread? Tbh I'm not really familiar with Harry Potter lore so I don't know the extent of how different their Goblins are from that of a "typical" goblin depiction.
OP
OP
I've felt this way for a while and had conversations with other Jewish friends and family on the subject. I am not the only person to point this out.
I'm Jewish, and I've noticed it for a long time. I recently re-watched the whole HP series with my son, and I had to cringe when we got to the Gringgott's scene in the 7th movie.
I think you and other people have the order wrong, its more likely than goblins as depicted in European folklore had little to no relation to Jews, but were associated to them after centuries of attributing certain characteristics that they share with goblins as a way to demonise them further.
Looking more into the Harry Potter side of goblins, this definitely looks more like a Rowling thing than anything else.
Halfway into book six for my reread, and not once has Seamus Finnigan blown anything up. Since reading about this I paid extra attention to it. It doesn't happen.
There's plenty of stuff to criticize Rowling for without making shit up. Like not making Dumbledore just full out gay, the problematic anti-semetic depiction of goblins and her gross stance on transgender people. And apparently Asian people have problems with Cho's name. Which also makes sense.
But don't make stuff up.
maybe because you see them that way? You're reaching with some weird correlation.
To answer the question, no.
To answer the question, no.
The problem with saying JK Rowling based her depiction of goblins on common earlier folklore/ D&D portrayals of goblins is that
A. Folklore goblins were basically any small annoying supernatural creature (Similar to imps, gnomes, fairies, dwarves, brownies etc) so there is no common depiction of them. I'm sure some versions exist that were used to disparage Jewish people simply because of how pervasive antisemitism has been throughout European history of course.
B. D&D goblins at the time Harry Potter was being written looked like this
The big nosed greedy banker goblins are as far as I know a Harry Potter (and later Warcraft) thing
A. Folklore goblins were basically any small annoying supernatural creature (Similar to imps, gnomes, fairies, dwarves, brownies etc) so there is no common depiction of them. I'm sure some versions exist that were used to disparage Jewish people simply because of how pervasive antisemitism has been throughout European history of course.
B. D&D goblins at the time Harry Potter was being written looked like this
The big nosed greedy banker goblins are as far as I know a Harry Potter (and later Warcraft) thing
I can see where you're coming from OP.
But I do wonder why George Lucas gets zero backlash for Watto....
But I do wonder why George Lucas gets zero backlash for Watto....
I believe it may be a movie thing? I can't remember. He definitely blows things up inasmuch as a shitty 11-17 year old kid can without going full rogue bomber.
The bar here isn't set at "were the DS9 writers insanely over-the-top racists who deliberately wrote a depiction of greedy Jews." I don't think every fan or staffer of the Cleveland Indians is a slavering racist, but that has zero bearing on whether their team imagery is a racist caricature. It is. Racist imagery is usually perpetuated by society mindlessly passing ideas on without thinking critically about them.
You don't see any resemblance, huh?
But D&D Goblins are mostly small tribal looters, following the leadership of the physically strongest Goblin around. They have no association with the characteristics this thread is talking about (well, aside from big noses, but you can't really say it's related to Jewish caricatures when they aren't connected in any other way). And even the nose has been changed into a more animal-like snout for a long time now.
1st edition
2nd edition (1989)
3rd edition (2000)
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I'm not even going to bother wasting my time writing an in-depth reply to how utterly stupid this rabble of nonsense is.
Yes, people made up (read European in this situation) folklore creatures based on stereotypes. Modern fiction still uses that. It's problematic.
I really do have to reiterate again how fucking stupid this reply was. It's abundantly clear you haven't stopped to think about the issue being discussed for more than two seconds, despite myself and many others in this thread spelling it out for you in the simplest possible terms.
But you know what, if you want to keep thinking stereotypes in media is okay and not engage your brain for more than two seconds of critical thinking, be my guest, you absolute weapon.
He had a few accidents that blew up in his face (not intentionally so) but at the battle of Hogwarts McGonagall in the movie says he has a penchant for pyrotechnics and asks him to blow one of the bridges.
There was a very good post going around recently about this and more.
hey do you think you could expand a bit on separating the art from the artist? clearly you've done it with jk rowling but what are your thoughts on it as a general idea?
-Anonymous
banrions:
-Anonymous
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Legit wondering based on some of these replies whether a modern fantasy or sci-fi production design could get away with an "evil race" of slightly distorted Sambo imagery depicted as lazy and stupid villains as long as you call them "orcs." Whoa, there's no real world race being depicted here, y'all just making some crazy correlations that aren't there!
What is heavens sake are you talking about? Im not denying the depiction of goblins in Harry potter can be an allegory to Jews or that they arent problematic and should be examined like the rest of the thread is saying, im just taking issue with your confusion of Folklore with Pop culture racist stereotypes.
Like, maybe YOU should think for a second? Are jews actually associated with hammers, being dumb, aggresive, pillaging and atacking town in packs like modern fantasy tropes? Are Jews associated with magic, making pranks to farmers and changing the places of objects as depicted in old folklore?
Jews in the late antiquity and middle ages didnt need to be demonised by allegories, they were converted, killed and expelled from Europe plenty of times before the german state was even a geopolitical idea. The conection between jews and goblins is entirely modern, based on purely physical stereotypes associated with modern Tolkien and DnD Goblins.
Maybe actually read what im typing before jumping to the jugular and insult me with no reason at all
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Perhaps. I've only seen the movies once, because they needlessly changed so much shit.
Like this. The fuck? Why would you do this?
There isn't any confusion. And no, the modern connection of goblins or other folklore creatures connected to Jews is not a recent thing that started with DnD. You are incorrect. The modern image? Yes, you could argue that.
Of course with Harry Potter we are talking about a more modern depiction but that point is irrelevant. The thread is about if goblins in HP are a Jewish stereotype to which the answer is yes.
You for reasons best known to yourself decided to chime in and go "oh wait not ALL folklore is associated with Jews" (and were wrong about your example anyway) instead of just going "yeah the goblins in HP are problematic".
So in summary; I read your posts. They are still shit.
Yeah, kinda.
Not as bad as the shit Lucas pulled with Watto, what the fuck was he thinking there. How did this even fly in the board meeting room.
Jeez I forgot about that character. How did that fly.
Phantom Menace is full of aliens based on racial stereotypes/accents.
User Banned (1 Month): Excusing Antisemitism
The reason i take issue with your statements is that one needs to understand the root of problems to properly eliminate them, i think its important and usefull to pinpoint problems to create the most effective solution, and thinking that old european folklore from the 10th Century was created to demonise Jews serves no purpose, contrary to saying that new reimagined folklore from the 19th century is the likely culprit
I corrected the DnD thing, i meant DnD and Tolkien depictions, its true that its not just DnD, buts definetely from the 19th century up
Im not actually denying that modern folklore can be racist, but im in fact saying that almost the entire folklore of old Europe (or the world at large for that matter) is definetely NOT racist (not that people werent racist, they were racist), simply by virtue that most folklore is local and communities in around the world were mostly agrarian farmers who had basically no contact with anyone outside their village so their folklore normally depicted more local problems.
I think this discussion is way beyond you, you are applying modern societal logic to old societies that operated completely different to our modern ones, maybe start reading like one single wikipedia article before spouting all this nonesense.
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I'm curious if you shared your thoughts with your son? Its always a challenge when you do decide or not decide let your children know about the origins of some of these things.
Yeah this is what I was wondering, which came first in a sense. Goblin folklore, or stereotyping Jewish people with these goblin-like features.
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That's not really a good defence nor does it make it seem like that Rowling isn't racist.
Because she's the only East Asian character in the book and one of the few People of Colour in the book and she is horribly written.
This is why I hate talking to white folks about problematic stuff in regards to race or cultural. You are not an expert or have been historically marginalised and yet still feel the need to mansplain to other how they are wrong and "overreacting".
You clearly don't know nor understand why the East Asian folks would have a problem with Cho Chan's name. It highlights the problematic of white writers taking another people culture and further marginalising them with their careless ignorant.
Because George Lucas is racist, sexist and a mediocre writer.
How Star Wars is beloved is beyond me as it's riddled with problematic writing that still exist to this day.
Nope, but this shower of utter shite is enough to put you on ignore because you are either being purposefully dense or you are actually just stupid as fuck. I'm going to go with latter considering your posts.
"modern societal logic" when talking about stereotypes. 😂😂😂😂😂. Yes, because people throughout the entirety of history haven't made up stories and imagery based on real things. That is only a modern thing.
Also reported for continuing to ignore the point at hand and distract from the actual issue of stereotypes in media. Which you have done repeatedly. Really is strange that in cases like this these types of posts always pop up. 🧐
"why yes some goblins are Jewish stereotypes maybe but let's ignore that and start an argument about the fact that every single depiction of folklore throughout the world and history isn't actually a stereotype because reasons"
Fuck up
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I dunno why people are mentioning DND, these goblin are nothing like them.
In DND they are little shits that set fire to things, more like a nuisance that might eat your baby or rob your horse if your not careful. They dont run banks or have big noses..
Oh let not forget the one Irish youngfella that like to blow things up. Nothing wrong with that. Just havin' a laff mate, havin' a lafff...
In DND they are little shits that set fire to things, more like a nuisance that might eat your baby or rob your horse if your not careful. They dont run banks or have big noses..
Oh let not forget the one Irish youngfella that like to blow things up. Nothing wrong with that. Just havin' a laff mate, havin' a lafff...
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I have repeatly agreed with the premise of the thread, the only reason i didnt comment on it initially was precisely because i agree with it, the initial thread is talking explicity about Harry potters goblins, not old folklore at large, which is what YOU borught into the discussion, pivoting it away from the problematic nature of goblins as depicted by the movies and posibly the books of Harry potter and old Nazi propaganda, what the hell is your problem?
This is what you responded initially
to this idea
Are you actually doubling down that on OLD EUROPEAN FOLKLORE ideas of GOBLINS is the basis of them being portrayed as greedy bankers that hoard money in harry potter that resemble nazi propaganda in relation to jews? Truly?
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That's just the actual floor of the building they filmed in, Australia House. It's possible that influenced their decision to film there, but seems like a stretch to me.
Not a massive watcher of Star Wars but that character someone posted earlier and the thing about Jar Jar Binks was pretty eye opening and damning.
I think it's important to acknowledge problematic stuff in media, even if it's something we really like. I'm a LotR fan for example, but you have to be able to take a step back and say okay, this is wrong or this aspect is problematic etc. If we can't examine things in this way critically how is it ever going to improve?
It's really annoying because whenever you try to have a discussion about it there are always people who get really defensive or whatever.
The bar here isn't set at "were the DS9 writers insanely over-the-top racists who deliberately wrote a depiction of greedy Jews." I don't think every fan or staffer of the Cleveland Indians is a slavering racist, but that has zero bearing on whether their team imagery is a racist caricature. It is. Racist imagery is usually perpetuated by society mindlessly passing ideas on without thinking critically about them.
You don't see any resemblance, huh?
I only see it with them next to eachother like this. I never noticed the nose before (though why are we stereotyped with two totally different noses?).
The difference between the Ferengi and the Cleveland Indians is the Cleveland Indian was an intentionally racist depiction of a real group of people. At the time they thought it was ok to show them in that way, now it obviously isn't. It was direct lift there's no defense for and there's plenty of images of the fans to this day being disrespectful of it, in addition to the club refusing to change it, so while I'd agree that they're probably not all racist they're also actively perpetuating something that's way more obvious and insidious than the Ferengi.
For the Ferengi to match the images above it either has to be intentional (in which case they specifically based it on terrible stereotypes and are bad people), unintentional but inspired (in which those stereotypes were so ingrained they were brought back subconsciously), or accidental and we're reading into it. I do not, with my knowledge of Star Trek's production, think it's the first option. Whether it's the second or third I don't know.
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I apologize, this was a poorly thought out post.
The history of goblins in storytelling and their association with antisemitism honestly had never occured to me. Now that I've read up a bit on it I can understand how Rowling's depiction in her stories and in the films would be deemed insensitive.
It's worth acknowledging and discussing problematic stuff in 'old' media but I feel it often devolves into 'Walt Disney was racist' which just gets parroted around by lazy people on the internet and overtakes other conversations to be had about works or more active forms of racism.
The Jar Jar/Watto thing baffles me. Like, I totally see the issues with them and am not going to defend them or anything, but I also find it hard to believe George 'guy who fought to make Red Tails and is best friends with the guy who directed Schindler's List' specifically went out to craft characters based on those stereotypes. It's totally possible those stereotypes were so ingrained they popped in when he was looking for characters in those rolls though.
Yeah, kinda.
Not as bad as the shit Lucas pulled with Watto, what the fuck was he thinking there. How did this even fly in the board meeting room.
And I'll still say Jar Jar Binks is even worse because he's a main character and is basically a walking minstrel show. Just take a minute to remember how he talks. The only way George could have made it worse is if he was eating space fried chicken and watermelon and calling the Jedi Massa... which he comes close to doing anyway.
The mistake you made is thinking people are actively malicious about their racism and bigotry. For Lucas it wasn't even a second thought, that's just how normalized this shit was for him. He wasn't sitting their thinking,"How can I spite Stephen Spielberg!" it was more like he remembered funny shit from his childhood that also happened to be tainted with a good does of bigotry, ignorance and stereotypes and recreated that for his Prequel movie without any thought of whether he should.
They pull from the same archetype as other goblins which most likely came from some antisemitic stereotypes. As a Jew I'm not offended at all, but yeah there's definitely something to it, though probably unintentionally.
Isn't it all a chicken or egg problem?
Antisemits look for ways to portray Jewish people as evil, so they use troops of folklore monsters, since they are proven to be popular and common folk unterstand them.
Facists really taking the fun out of folkore, since they either use the positive symbol on there own and the negative ones on there victims. Destroying them for future generations.
Antisemits look for ways to portray Jewish people as evil, so they use troops of folklore monsters, since they are proven to be popular and common folk unterstand them.
Facists really taking the fun out of folkore, since they either use the positive symbol on there own and the negative ones on there victims. Destroying them for future generations.
Plenty of bigots throughout history have had friends, lovers, or people they work with that happen to be the target of their hatred. Can be bigoted to a faceless group but chummy with an individual. He could be "one of the good ones".
If through cultural osmosis someone replicates a racist caricature divorced from the original form I think that's different than actively creating one and should be treated as such on the creator's side (not the character's necessarily). There's a different malice and reason behind 'I will create a character based on the bankers in the movies I watched as a kid' and 'I will create a character who looks like a Jew because he is a banker.' Subconscious racism is still racism, and still powerful and problematic but I think it does a disservice to present it in the way it often is. People are dumb and often don't notice things (I didn't notice the problem with Watto's design until recently and I'm Jewish myself), there's a difference in 'this character is problematic let's point it out so people notice and do not continue making characters in this vein' and 'this creator is a racist shithead.'
Obviously if the creator turns out to be a racist shithead feel free to dog pile when they make a shitty apology.