But a british person with chinese ancestry might have it. I really don't get why people are so hung up on Cho Chang.
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So those Goblins in Harry Potter are antisemitic right?
- Thread starter Gwenpoolshark
- Start date
I don't know any Chinese person named Cho :p. That's more of a Korean last name haha.
"Hello my name is O'Sullivan Smith."
Nothing wrong with being in Ravenclaw :p
I didn't know Cho was a common British first name.
"Hello my name is O'Sullivan Smith."
Nothing wrong with being in Ravenclaw :p
I didn't know Cho was a common British first name.
How? There is not a single thing about Ferengi and their culture, nor depiction, that is anything related to Jewish culture.
They like no regulations, corporations, and profit. They are an incredibly sexist society.
Ferengi is American culture.
I'm more lul-ing someone thinks Cho is a sensible English first name.
Like, Emma, Jane, Christy, Maddy. I can see that.
But Cho? Really? lol
iirc Ferengi are meant to be caricatures of 20th century America, being obsessed with capital, work and are blatantly sexist; the opposite of the utopian Federation.
Obviously, what is intended is not always how things are interpreted.
As a Jew, I had not felt uncomfortable with Ferengi characters, I think they're a laugh.
I don't know man, it doesn't seem enough to me. Watching that image It never came to my mind a thought like "look, this is a jewish person".
Thought you guys were kidding, her name is actually Cho Chang? Hahahaha. Jk Rowling is something else.
Can something that you don't see not exist?
I mean it's great you don't jump straight to racist thoughts or make that association, but is that your bar for whether or not something might be problematically associated with racial stereotypes?
I hear your sentiment a lot and I can never figure out if people are saying, oh, I don't see it, or if they're saying, since I don't see it, it must not be a thing.
I think it's a first name in Burma although to be fair I don't think Rowling knew that when she picked it.
It just feels at this point some people are just looking for things to hate when it comes to Rowling. Yes, she has tweeted some really shitty things but I don't see a problem with Cho Chang for example other than she's pretty much dumped when she's no longer needed as a love interest.
When it comes to the name she probably did the latter but being lazy when it comes to naming supporting characters isn't exactly a big problem. I doubt she spend a lot of time picking the perfect name for Dean Thomas.
Her being in Ravenclaw ... eh. Cho isn't even portrayed as particularly smart, she's probably in Ravenclaw for the same reason Cedric was in Hufflepuff, there weren't any prominent students from those houses in the first books so Rowling added them.
I think it's more because the best-known Ferengi, Quark from DS9, was played by Armin Shimerman, who is Jewish. Also because sexism and obsession with money and capital are also very anti-semitic stereotypes. Plus they have big noses (though those are not brought upon as much because of the ears).
That said, Shimerman himself I think had the best answer when he was asked if he thought Quark was anti-semitic:
Pretty much. There's a touch of classic fantasy goblin in there, for sure.
Ferengi = capitalists
Klingons (particularly TOS) = Soviets/communists
Y'all can say that Ferengi are just American capitalists, but somehow every main Ferengi was cast as a Jewish actor. Armin Shimmerman as Quark, Aron Eisenberg as Nog, Max Grodenchik as Rom, Wallace Shawn as Zek - all Jewish. Compared to how many other Jews among the DS9 cast?
It's real fucking weird that every casting choice meant to represent "American capitalism" mysteriously turned up Jewish.
It's real fucking weird that every casting choice meant to represent "American capitalism" mysteriously turned up Jewish.
I love the Ferengi, as a fellow Jew a lot of these things whizzed by my head without being noticed as 'bad' by any means. I wonder if Ferengi get thrown in as possibly problematic because of the make up existing at all, same as goblins, as compared to the dwarves of LotR who were (if I recall) explicitly based on Jews but do not seem to have recieved any backlash. People see what they think is a caricature and assume it has to be associated with a stereotype.
The Ferengi were also predominatly comedic characters played often by comedians, a profession in which there are a lot of well known Jews. Personally I doubt Star Trek has any intenditonal anti-semeticness to it, considering both Shatner and Nimoy were Jewish, Live Long and Prosper is Jewish, and Worf in-universe is Jewish (or at least raised it).
Ima stop you right there because someone is gona read this and just parrot it to other people. What you mean is current fantasy tropes are racial in nature and i think theres a case for that idea. But Folklore is not your dungeon and dragons character, folklore is the traditions, tales and so on of a group of people, or are we gona sit here and say the idea of small spirits living under hills (European Folklore) or its similar equivalent in thinking the Mountaints are gods (Inca Folklore) are also based on racial stereotypes?
Also the modern view of goblins is not correspondent to its initial presentations as goblins and most old monsters dont really have clear origins because like a million variants can be seen in different cultures with conflicting characteristics.
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Why would it have to be intentional? Why would the decisions of the production staff for the original Star Trek in the mid 1960s have anything to do with evaluating whether a racist caricature was used in a production 30 years later?
I feel like you have to divorce the words from the imagery. In traditional D and D/fantasy stories, goblins exist as words on a page with some characteristics applied, but the actual visual interpretation is up to the artist. I'd say depending on how far the artist trends towards the clearly racist caricatures is the main point of racism. Otherwise they are just creatures that are created to be ugly and evil because it's an easy antagonist trope.
I feel like unless there is actual artistic intent to make these anti-Semitic, than it's just reaching and projecting when people say they are clearly made with that in mind.
I feel like unless there is actual artistic intent to make these anti-Semitic, than it's just reaching and projecting when people say they are clearly made with that in mind.
I have a Thai friend who swears Cho Chang in Harry Potter was intended to be of Thai origin and her country has been swindled of having been represented in this character on screen and in popular thought. The name is a Thai letter and is popular in naming things like the island Koh Chang and Chang beer.
Oh man, this is some Westworld style "I don't see anything at all" kind of bullshit. Come on.
Lol, are you Burmese or did you just wiki that Cho-as-a-first-name tidbit :p.
I mean personally I love the HP series. I read it once a year. I'm probably a HP trivia wiz. I don't care as much about if JKR is an awful person or not. You can not care about hating her, and still point out issues within her work.
I don't have strong emotions about the Cho thing. I like to discuss it because a) it shows that JKR had the cultural sensitivity of a walnut, and b) I'm Asian so it's always a good laugh. Also, I love discussing pointless things to death.
I agree with you on that sticking Cho in Ravenclaw was most likely more to do with, shit people complaining about how the other houses are ignored, and hopefully less about the Asians are smart stereotype. That being said, if someone else points out that it sort of furthers and falls into the stereotype of Asians as bookish nerds, then I can acknowledge the validity of their viewpoint.
In a thread asking about the cultural sensitivity of JKR regarding stereotypes, bringing up all the ways JKR has failed isn't a condemnation of her (to me). It's bringing evidence to the argument that JKR was not a culturally sensitive writer.
Well, let's see... So we ever see any goblins who AREN'T bankers/somehow connected to wealth/greed in Harry Potter? That would be a good place to start, and I can't remember if there were any others. 'Cause yeah, even without their appearance, that by itself... That they're greedy/obsessed with money, that they have a disproportionate amount if bankers compared to other species and you don't really see them otherwise as if that all there is to then and they're never really assigned any noteworthy character traits/goals/motivations that don't in some way nonetheless involve those things... That doesn't sound very good, at the very least.
Yeah wouldn't think it past her. JKR is trash.
With Tolkien at least you can blame it on folklore. Rowling goblins not so much.
With Tolkien at least you can blame it on folklore. Rowling goblins not so much.
I feel like it's more that Antisemites use goblin imagery rather than the other way around
But Rowling...
But Rowling...
My question is, how do we detach the depiction of goblins from anti-semitism while keeping some of their historic lore intact? Or is that just impossible? Is it as simple as changing their noses? (probably not. but I'm trying to throw something out there)
User Banned (2 weeks): Dismissing concerns of bigotry
Era's hate for Rowling is something else.
Goblins in European folklore seem to be fairly influenced by predominant anti-semitism throughout the centuries. They've been depicted as a greedy, tricksters with bulbous noses, and sneering-secretive personalities for several hundred years, which incidentally, Jews are often depicted the same way in anti-semitic European storytelling, myths. They're also both depicted as preying on children. I don't know the inspiration for the goblin bankers in Harry Potter, but they fit the bill for the traditional European folklore of goblins. Most other depictions of goblins were inspired from the same folklore... Dungeons and Dragons, for instance. So any fantasy that has been inspired by D&D likely shares that likeness to anti-semitic tropes.
Eh, there's a lot of really silly names in Harry Potter. One of the French people is Fleur Delacour ("Flower of the Court"), another silly is Dedalus Diggle, Viktor Krum from Bulgaria, Luna Lovegoode, Pius Thicknesse... Albus Dumbledore isn't really a name that many English people would have either. The names are all pretty silly. It's a childrens' book afterall.
Eh, there's a lot of really silly names in Harry Potter. One of the French people is Fleur Delacour ("Flower of the Court"), another silly is Dedalus Diggle, Viktor Krum from Bulgaria, Luna Lovegoode, Pius Thicknesse... Albus Dumbledore isn't really a name that many English people would have either. The names are all pretty silly. It's a childrens' book afterall.
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I knew it was a first name somewhere, so I asked google. Guilty as charged. :)
I don't even like Rowling and Cho Chang isn't the hill I'm going to die on, feels weird that I somehow ended up defending the choice of a name. I just think people should criticize her for things she did that are actually bad and obviously intentional, like in one of her Robert Galbraith books the "hero" telling a transwoman she'll go to men's prison and they'll rape her (if I remember that right).
Its actually pretty easy, you just need to portray them in any of the variants seen in history prior to their pop culture depictions. They can simply be mischievous imps.
I have the feeling Fleur should have been called Fleur Delacoeur. Aka Flower of the Heart.
I get what you're saying, the fact is that for me is really hard to believe that someone could associate that kind of imagery to a real person. That being said, the fact that jewish people are effectively offended by this character proves that I'm wrong, so I fully retreat what I said earlier.
Ehh I feel that's reaching. Cho is as much of a name as Hermione.
De la coeur doesn't make sense, coeur is masculin. It would be Fleur du coeur.
Her name should have been Zhang (which has largely replaced the Chang surname) Qiu, which when pronounced properly would be very close to Chang Cho. I don't expect JK Rowling to have researched this, to be perfectly fair. Of course, this is a place where you have names like Severus and Draco and Regulus...so it could just be JKR not giving a solitary shit.
As for being in Ravenclaw, you telling me she'd have been better off with the numptys in Gryffindor, constantly getting into trouble? :D Of course, I can't say anything, I wanted to be a garbage truck driver when I was a kid, to the endless despair of my mom.
Would have been pretty baller if she was part of the core trio, though. Missed opportunities.
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I mean, yeah. Definitely. Short little hook nosed money grubbing bankers? Couldn't have been more obvious if she'd tried.
Hahaha yeah.
I also want to believe that JKR is not actively that kind of racist, though. She'd still get a defense force for it if she was.
Yeah, I agree with you here. It's sort of arguing the chicken or the egg, imho. The end result is the same. Anti-Semitic results/association, conscious or not.
I think names can be powerful though. It being a silly name doesn't change, for example, that Asians in English speaking countries (and indeed, pic/immigrants in general) get othered for keeping their "native" names. Again, not a conscious effort on JKR's part I think, but just an unfortunate not very sensitive choice that can touch the nerves for some people as there exists real prejudice for the very same issue.
Haha yeah I know what you mean. Sometimes our fingers lead us to hills we never intended on landing.
I don't read JKR outside of HP. I'm not familiar with her other work, so I can't comment on that other than to say what you described is really gross and makes sense as to why people here call her a TERF.
Ah okay I see what you mean. Yeah I mean I don't always personally see what's wrong with some stuff either, but I'm with you on if someone from that group is like dude that's fucked up, I'll be like okay your feelings are valid and I didn't know until you told me.
That only matters if you care about genders of French words. I don't.
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Yeah I mean, I don't think Rowling was being original in making this, just appealing to a longstanding lazy stereotype. But the fact that the Goblins literally run the banks in this case seems like added Rothschildlike-Jewbaiting, whether or not Rowling was smart enough to realize this when she churned it out.
I just think it's unlikely that a franchise with that kind of huge, iconic, Jewish impact would intentionally create something anti-semetic. Especially since Nimoy and Shatner were still actively involved in it not long before DS9 came out (plus, obviously, Armin was Jewish himself).
Intention also absolutely matters. I don't see how an alien species with huge ears and flat noses counts as a racist cariacature when they look nothing like the stereotype and 'loves money' defines tons of other 'normal' looking villains who aren't called out on this. The writers saying 'we will base Ferengi on how the Jews love money' is much different then 'we will create an alien race that loves money.'
My family is Jewish and I've been into fantasy / stories with goblins since I was a little kid. I have never thought of or heard of anyone equating goblins to antisemetic depictions until this thread on era. I'm kinda in shock anyone is even making that connection.