This is awkward in hindsight. I have a feeling people think he's joking but to me it seems like he was very serious.
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So square can make drastic changes to FF7 in the remake but couldn't be bothered to not make Barrett an ignorant racist caricature? (Read Threadmarks)
- Thread starter Chief Malik
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This is awkward in hindsight. I have a feeling people think he's joking but to me it seems like he was very serious.
The major problem I have with portraying black characters like this in videogames and almost every time you see a black male character is for the average person that doesn't have a black associate or close friend, this maybe the only way to which they get their information on black culture. Lets face it, the media portrayal of black men as super aggressive are one of the major reasons we continue to see them being shot unarmed at an alarming rate by cops.
It's a Japanese acting/motion capture thing. Game mo-cap in Japanese is done the same way Super Sentai(Power Rangers) and Kamen Rider is done. It's very likely in SE's case its done separate from the general movements in recorded scenes so the body language is dialed up. In shows like SS and KR, where the actor's face is obscured, the overly animated gestures are how emotion is being conveyed. It's a bit more complicated than that but you can see the comparison in there. Also very likely its to show how "girly and appealing Tifa is in contrast to her combat prowess" or some other precanned nonsense that would come out of an explanation from a game company haha.
It's really prominent in JRPG particularly where anime influences on gender movements is prevalent.
RIGHT!?
I'm pretty shocked people are mentioning Corel as possibly being a whole town of Barret style speakers. Like when has ANY game had that much effort put into it. I really don't think anyone would be crazy enough to put eggs in that basket.
Like you said though. I'd tip my hat and shut up if they did something that impressive and insightful.
I will say though. I have a hard time blaming "Japanese game devs" for voice and translation work. Localization teams and third parties job is to handle stuff this stuff and convince them something is or isnt ok.
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I got that point, but it's also largely irrelevant to what I was saying.
Yeah, this whole idol matter isms was a problem with FF15 too, especially with Gladio's sister. Really off putting especially with the dub engaged, doesn't match at all. I think Square should've realized that not every youth, especially the ones outside of Japan playing the game are gonna find this cute idol thing appealing.
Read interviews about how John Eric Bentley intended to play him. There's a clear understanding of what Mr. T represented and how Bentley wanted to pay homage to him while avoiding any kind of stereotyping. I've spoken with him several times and he's always expressed this.
Considering the success of the games and how wide the fan base of those girls are, I think they're pretty spot on ...
I havent read many interviews or seen any videos but I can respect his acting choices. I'm critical of Barretts portrayal but there are times where he absolutely shines, even when he leans into Barrets blackness. I just hope some of it is toned down in the next releases.
Yeah, like that train scene is just bad for instance. There's no need to depict him like a walking stereotype like that, and him having a character arc pr whatever in no way justifies that.
He can have a great character arc, and be a wonderful character overall, and scenes like that can be terrible racist garbage. Both these things can be true.
Wish more people would realize that. That it's fine to enjoy problematic characters and all that, to see all kinds of good and fascinating parts to then, as long as you also realize the bad parts are definitely bad as well. That you can in fact do both, but people get too hung up on like if you apply any criticism at all, that means you must not like anything at all.
No. You can give praise where it's do, AND also critique when needed as well. And unfortunately in regards to this thread's topic, yeah, there's much to love in term of his character arc or whatever, but that in no way justifies the racist garbage that goes along with it which in no way needed to be there.
That shouldn't be hard, but alas...
He can have a great character arc, and be a wonderful character overall, and scenes like that can be terrible racist garbage. Both these things can be true.
Wish more people would realize that. That it's fine to enjoy problematic characters and all that, to see all kinds of good and fascinating parts to then, as long as you also realize the bad parts are definitely bad as well. That you can in fact do both, but people get too hung up on like if you apply any criticism at all, that means you must not like anything at all.
No. You can give praise where it's do, AND also critique when needed as well. And unfortunately in regards to this thread's topic, yeah, there's much to love in term of his character arc or whatever, but that in no way justifies the racist garbage that goes along with it which in no way needed to be there.
That shouldn't be hard, but alas...
Great posts who anyone who doesn't get it absolutely need to read, IMO.
I never felt he joked about serious things. Mr.T was very thoughtful and insightful and more to the point of this topic, didn't yell that often.
The issue with Barrrett is that, this isn't a black persons' idea of what a black person sounds like. Quite evidently. It's an issue of scripting and voice direction so returning to "his arc is so good though" is irrelevant. Why does he sound like this and have these wild, manic, mannerisms? Nothing about how this character acts is unique interpretation either.
It's not the worst thing in the world but, come on, man. Do better.
I feel bad for the voice actor. The voice direction is terrible for Barett, so many laughable moments when they're supposed to be some serious statement.
I will get banned for this, which is baffling considering that this is supposed to be an inclusive community. I've stumbled upon the link to this thread elsewhere, so probably that qualifies as "drive-by posting".
I understand how this might feel, the trope is prevalent in numerous works. I concur that Barret may feel like a generic representation of "angry/scary black man". What I do not understand is the consent for reducing him to mere trope. I have not played remake, because I refuse to participate in blatant milking of one of my favorite games, but I guess in the original, the argument still holds.
Even in the link to tvtropes, the thumbnail shows Jules from Pulp Fiction. Assuming this is an accurate example of the trope, Barret's character complexity is way beyond Jules and it feels unfair to keep the same ramifications for assessing his character. He's angry for a valid reason; everyone should be as angry as he was - given the situation Midgar was in. At many times Barret is just as angry about the situation as he is about people not being angry about Shinra. He loves his daughter and he wants her to thrive in a beautiful, pristine world. Yet today, he's just an "angry black guy with a gun". He's just Mr T, who breaks shit.
I'm assuming most people here are leaning left, many perhaps are activists. I can also safely guess that a lot of you care about environment. How many times were you reduced to a "whacko nutjob" - because you cared about something passionately? Dismissed and reduced to a "femi/eco/gay-nazi"?
People who say: "I don't care, I like him" and get banned in the aftermath, are correct. They don't care about Barret's race or gender, but what he represents. Isn't that what everyone here would like? To not be profiled? To not be labeled? To not be reduced to a bloody tv trope?
I understand how this might feel, the trope is prevalent in numerous works. I concur that Barret may feel like a generic representation of "angry/scary black man". What I do not understand is the consent for reducing him to mere trope. I have not played remake, because I refuse to participate in blatant milking of one of my favorite games, but I guess in the original, the argument still holds.
Even in the link to tvtropes, the thumbnail shows Jules from Pulp Fiction. Assuming this is an accurate example of the trope, Barret's character complexity is way beyond Jules and it feels unfair to keep the same ramifications for assessing his character. He's angry for a valid reason; everyone should be as angry as he was - given the situation Midgar was in. At many times Barret is just as angry about the situation as he is about people not being angry about Shinra. He loves his daughter and he wants her to thrive in a beautiful, pristine world. Yet today, he's just an "angry black guy with a gun". He's just Mr T, who breaks shit.
I'm assuming most people here are leaning left, many perhaps are activists. I can also safely guess that a lot of you care about environment. How many times were you reduced to a "whacko nutjob" - because you cared about something passionately? Dismissed and reduced to a "femi/eco/gay-nazi"?
People who say: "I don't care, I like him" and get banned in the aftermath, are correct. They don't care about Barret's race or gender, but what he represents. Isn't that what everyone here would like? To not be profiled? To not be labeled? To not be reduced to a bloody tv trope?
Barrett isn't a person.
I think the issue is going over your head. This isn't about his character at all.
This is a thread wherein a black person complained that the only black character is portrayed in stereotypical, jive-talking style when modern SE took creative license to make a number of changes to the original game. Mr T, who the character is loosely based on, is far more witty, thoughtful and eloquent than one would expect until you actually listened to him talk at length. Anyone with exposure to him would know this with the amount of community outreach and PSAs he's done over the years.
No one talks like Barrett. How he talks and is framed is based in caricature and stereotypes. There was 20 years worth of insight to improve and there wasn't any. It's not even about policing, there are many non-black writers who can write black characters well. Where they fail in their understanding, they can either 1. consult directly or 2. interact with people and develop understanding. This character is what happens when neither is done.
I'm not immensely bothered about it to the point where I couldn't play the game. If however, someone else couldn't shrug it off, I wouldn't blame them.
Your passion is misplaced and I don't think many would say he's a bad character (I don't think he is). How he is portrayed is in effect lazy and mildly insulting.
I'd worry if that was a bit patronizing to John Eric Bentley, I love his enthusiasm for it.
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The reason people get banned is because they are being dismissive of the issue raised instead of attempting to understand it.
As others have rightly said, just because Barret is "more than his anger", just because he does pan out to be more thoughtful and insightful and caring, etc... that doesn't remove the lazy, racist trope they used to frame him with. They could very easily have shown his anger and growth without him sounds like this trope, and this thread wouldn't exist.
Can you understand this? That just because there is growth it doesn't remove the fact it his character is wrapped in the trope?
User Banned (Permanent): Dismissing concerns regarding racial stereotypes, account in junior phase
Wow. So everyone needs to be sensitive about OPs feelings about Barrett to the point of being banned if they just say they don't see an issue, but patronizing shit like this is fine? No, I do not have mental capacity to get on your level of omnipotence.
I have not heard Barrett in remake. In he original, I don't see anything out of ordinary. I swear just as much as he does and all "nuthin'-s" et al. don't seem that exaggerated if we look at 90s popular culture and representation of Afro Americans therein.
Tropes don't exist in vacuum. Otherwise you could simplify any work of art in 3-4 tags. You can handle the trope, add depth to it, or non superficial notions. Which is what is done in Final Fantasy and not in Pulp Fiction or A Team. Could they have handled it better and be less obvious about it? Yeah. Does it invalidate everything else about a character? No.
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I was honestly asking you. That was not patronizing. It's quite dishonest to take that single sentence from my post when the post in its entirity clearly shows I was asking you fairly.
Do you really not see how it doesn't matter how his character pans out when the character is wrapped in the racist trope still?
People need to stop saying, "I don't care about this, so it's not a problem".
There's a difference between disagreeing and presenting and argument that's counter what the OP is saying and just blowing off the whole thing because you think it's fine.
Wait, you haven't actually heard Barrett in the remake but you still felt the need to come into the thread and say it isn't a problem? How can that not be anything but disengenious?
My initial impression was the same as the OP's. I softened on him a bit as the game progressed, but he is absolutely fashioned after the Mr. T archetype. I played in Japanese after playing the demo in English and I don't think the Japanese VA is much better. My guy fucking screams.
That they tooka single line from my post to immediately play the victim probably tells us they are not acting in good faith.
As a black man, I have no problems with how Barrett is portrayed, though, whenever I say this I get immediately attacked as an "Uncle Tom" or something which is ironic. I think the pendulum has swayed to being overly conscious about being that big black man since, as a kid, that was the caricature we looked up to and some still resent that since we all don't have that in us or want to be that in order to be "accepted" by white people. Also, this country, US, has been getting more angry at people who get "buff" for some reason stereotyping them in a way. That all being said, I still really like Barrett's character and don't even see it as being racist, but here's the obligatory, you do you.
Here's a bright idea. If you haven't played the Remake or heard Barrett in it at length and with context, perhaps lay off the post reply button.
Here's another: if you don't see the problematic depiction and caricature OG Barrett was, just know, that says a lot about you.
Here's another: if you don't see the problematic depiction and caricature OG Barrett was, just know, that says a lot about you.
I've not read the whole thread, so maybe someone already gave good examples. Could you give any example of how they could have portrayed his anger better, if you have any ideas?
My 2c. I'm not American, my understanding of American (and other countries') racial issues are surface-level at best. I've played only the demo (I've not played the original either). To me Barrett immediately stood out as a caricature.
In the simplest terms, it's not that he was angry. It's how his anger was portrayed. Like a joke, like an exaggeration.
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From what I gather listening to some black folk discuss this, it's the accent and kind of comedic OTT nature of it.
The big angry black dude with the Mr T/Tropic Thunder caricature accent is a big thing here.
But not leaning into traditional boogieman tactics that are constantly used against black people in order to make Barrett seem tough and extreme.
Like that train scene is straight up white people pearl clutching at the sign of the scary black man, the same shit white supremacists cite every time they go into diatribes about why black people are dangerous and should be feared.
It isn't hard to make a black person with complicated motives and desires seem intense without making them a stereotype.
I'd, again, point back to Orlando Jones' Anasi from American Gods to describe how you can do an angry black character without dropping into tired racial stereotypes.
The thread says that SE had a chance to fix Barrett, so it's obvious that the implication is he was already problematic to begin with? WTF?
Also I'm not playing a victim, I couldn't care less, the double standard about what we should be sensitive about was striking though.
Also nobody bothered to reply about tropes not being in a vacuum, focusing like always on a post count, like this is something thatis supposed to define me unworthy of conversation.
This is actually a great topic to see, that being sensitive about acts of racism, bigotry etc. - which is something great about the place - is contrasted with almost totalitarian approach to conversations and superficial measures of credibility.
Nothing about my request and questions for you were the way you described, and you absolutely are playing the victim here.
Go back and respond to my honest request, please:
Are you saying that the OG Barrett isn't problematic?
Even the defenders of FF7R Barrett aren't willing to die on that dumb of a hill.
I mean, yes.
The Barrett from the 97 version of the game is a bumbling oaffish trope that comes across as a joke for half the time he's on screen. Again, for those in the cheap seats, he's just another Mr. T joke and the only thing original about him his is backstory. For what it's worth, the remake does a lot of work in pulling back on that A LOT. Make no mistake, Barrett in FF7r is worlds better than he was 20 years ago, but that's not to say he's perfect and that's not to say that there isn't a lot of problematic stuff left over or created in order to magnify what's supposed be pure intensity.
Like, make no mistake, Barret, Dyne and Cid are all terrible racial stereotypes and FF7r is going to have to put in work to make them acceptable. And it seems like they're going to try.
No. I actually started my first post in this thread saying exactly opposite thing.
I don't see the request in it, honestly.
Basically, if we conclude that he is stereotypical and offensive to Afro Americans then I can't imagine any fix other than basically writing and modeling him from scratch. You remove slang, mannerisms. Then what? How do you tone down an anger of a fictional character who loses everything because of Shinra. How do you show a working class underdog without him being openly hostile towards elites? I'm sad to see that this portrayal is offensive to black people. That's it. I can understand it, yes. The only thing I can say, is that being a teenager when FFVII came out, I personally never had a moment when I projected a single negative feeling onto black people when interacting with in-game Barrett.
The request is clear... so again I can't see how you are possibly arguing in good faith here by saying you cannot see my very visible request ro consider a perspective and then a direct question based on that request.
And if you read the thread it has been explained by people who have an issue here ways in which they feel it could be dealt with.
Please read the thread to find what you are asking for.
You quoted my reply, where I clearly say that I understand that perspective and I'm sad to hear people are offended.
And no, I still don't see any post that postulates the "proper fix". That aside, I can't think of how am I supposedly acting in bad faith.
If you can't see how your initial approach and defensive stances were unproductive and the fact you ignored salient points to focus on that leading to people questioning your intent, I can't really make my opinion on that much clearer. Let's leave it.
The solution would be a simple one, the accent and design of Barret's anger is very in-line with the Mr-T style caricatures like Tropic Thunder that almost have comedic tone to them. They could very easily have avoided those and still shown his anger.
I think he nails it a lot of the time outside of chapters 1 and 2. It's definitely most notable in the early game. Let's not turn this into a bash-John-Eric-Bentley thread
You take him as being funny from the first t
As a black man, I genuinely did not see a racist trope in Barret. I intervened earlier in the thread to say a bit the same, but I guess it is up to each and everyone's personal backgrounds and experiences in life that make you feel like "this is racism" or "this is not racism".
I am conscious that among this thread, many do recognise in the character a racist trope in a scary and angry black man. I actually don't. The character could have been portrayed differently, however what strikes me out of the 10+ hours I have put in the game so far (just past that boss in reactor 5) is that Barret is the only one who holds the truth, since the beginning. Undeniable, cold, blatant truth.
The man is the only sane dude in a square mile. And yes, I can understand the anger, I can understand the passion and I would have probably gone as angry as him would I have been in his shoes.
Now what I want to see is how they will give us more on his background and how he became the way he is, as I feel there is more to the character than just what is shown there, similarly to a half mute main character who seems high on drug with hallucinations for the first 5 hours of the game :-)
Once again I understand that some of us can see racism, and I truly feel that it depends on the personal experiences and background of everyone I guess. I would just like for everyone to be a bit more open minded and accept that likewise some of us may not see racism here.
Yep, I think you nailed it. No one is saying everyone has to see the issue here or they are wrong - especially other black people who we need to listen to also - but I think we should try to understand the black people who do have an issue and listen to why.
Same thing happens to myself with LGBTQ folk. I don't always share all of the concerns that other bi and non-binary folk have, and shouldn't be expected to (not a monolith), but it would be wrong of me to ignore their concerns just because they are not my own, and it would be wrong of people outside of these groups to point at the fact I don't share the concerns to dismiss them.
From playing the demo I could see that probably not much has changed with Barrett this time around and that's disappointing, but not surprising. It seems like we're most likely only going to get good representation from a black owned studio, but that's still not a thing yet soo, but it seems we're more likely to get better representation from Western studios.
How are Dyne and Cid racial stereotypes? I barely remember Dyne outside of that scene in the amusement park, but since Dyne and Cid are both white so the traits they might share with Barrett have a different context and history with them I don't see an argument for them being racial stereotypes.
Abdul Malik Ka'bah, brave of you to post this on gaming side, don't expect any sympathy from Gamers, just saying. Gaming side is basically a hellscape when it comes to racial matters.
Alright so lemme preface this with the fact that you 100% came to this thread from some other forum on some other site complaining about this thread so I have no doubt you are here completely on bad faith. But I will waste my time and explain the short and simple to you anyway.
Nobody talks like Barret. That is by 90's standards AND any 2020 standards a insanely outdated model of slang that has been greatly exaggerated by blaxploitation films. It's not an accurate representation on how black people talk.
The above is a fact, if you do not accept that then don't bother reading on.
Alright? So now you understand that Barret is an inaccurate model of black people. You could say he is a STEREOTYPE. Understanding that you also have to consider that Barret talks this way
- In a futuristic city
- Nobody else talks like he does
- He is one of the only black people in the game
When you combine all these things together what you get is a character who was made to sound like a caricature of black people based on media not representative of reality solely because he is a large black man evident by the fact that he is out of place vocally.
Add the fact that this could very well be the only black person in a JRPG we see for like 10 years and can you understand why this instance is an issue for people?
Well there's several solutions, posted in this thread if you read it (which you didn't) but one of those solutions would be to INCLUDE A WIDER VARIETY OF POC CHARACTERS SO THAT THE ONE CARICATURE DOES NOT DO AS MUCH DAMAGE.
Believe it or not the jive talkin sucka foo Barret could in fact exist in an innocuous context but he would have to NOT be the sole representative of black people in his story. As of now though; he is. The only black rep in Final Fantasy VII has to be a caricature. One with a good arc but one nonetheless.
Again, this was a waste of time. I'm sure you're just here to get yourself banned so you can run back to whatever hole you crawled from to show all your friends "WHOA LOOK HOW I GOT BANNED FROM ERA! SOME INCLUSIVE PLACE HUH?" but hey I just woke up so whatever.
Cid is the stereotypical white shitty husband who "beats" his "wife". He is literally the figure that every sad country song is about. Replace "truck" with "Rocket" and you literally have the antagonist of 70% of all country music.
Dyne is the closed off xenophobic "THOSE PEOPLE" stereotype that reinforces tradition and rejects change at all fronts. The only real difference his role plays compared to what this trope is traditionally used for is that he's right because Shinra is comically evil.
You know, now that I think about it, Wutai is gonna have to be handled with kid gloves too. I have faith that they can do it though, after how good the Wallmarket scene was, they definitely have people with their head on straight when it comes to scenario writers.
While I loved Barrett and his Mr. T impersonation as a teen and still like him, it's gotten old. When we have more interesting characters of color now and FFVI Machinabridged's take on him, Square has no excuse for sticking to clichés.
OP
OP
Funny thing is, I know for a FACT that the whites defending this shit be the first ones to piss they pants and say chill out when black folks get tired of they shit and start moving guerilla and militant for real. I've been laughing at these niggas "shits fucked up, it's justified" for the past 24 hours.
To be fair, what you're referring to as "the way black people speak" is very much a North American thing, from my experience. I myself am black (50% Fula, 25% Pashtun, 25% Caucasian) and grew up surrounded by others and there isn't really a "way we talk" elsewhere. At least going from my experiences growing up mainly in Portugal, Italy, Brasil and the UK there isn't really a specific "way in which we talk" regarding common language outside of like rap scene youngsters like there seems to be in NA. Though we do have a language of our own we often times use amongst ourselves here in Portugal (crioulo).